[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

Fair play, having looked at the Beta, seems like this is the best Forest data update ever - 

Couple of things I've noticed from quick glance.

Rodrigo Ely has been recovering from an ACL tear through this season and has still not played any competitive football.

Jayden Richardson has no competency at LB, despite playing a lot there in pre-saeason.  He has some LWB competency which is a bit odd.

The big issue I see is that Brennan Johnson is being automatically allocated to a fringe player and in the Under 23 team.   Obviously he is a quality player and one of the top Champtionship talents, so there seems to be some issue affecting his status within the squad.

Fin Back doesnt ever play CB.  Is a central midfielder, converted to RB.  

Under 18 manager Gareth Holmes has left the club, Warren Joyce now running that squad,

[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

40 minutes ago, robterrace said:

Joe is a bit of a strange build anyway, and, having spoken to people that know him, hes pretty much at that weight, give or take a few pounds.

We (myself and Dean), had numerous conversations about his rating. His CA puts him towards the top end of Forest players in the DB, however, by everyones standards, he hasn't had a fantastic season. He has had issues with injuries (he has had a niggling 'shin splints' like injury through most of the season, which, although hasn't kept him out of every match, has limited his involvement on occasion. You will notice, he is still good, however, there have been changes made which bring him closer to the team performance.

 

thanks for the reply i think you are referring to Lolley in the second part at least, and I think youve done great with him, but I was meaning Worrall.  I forgot we had a few Joes.

COYR

[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

12 hours ago, robterrace said:

That would be why then.

*goes back to playing Farm Sim*

thanks for the effort in the latest update!  One thing I just noticed is Joe is 64kg.  I know that's listed in various literature on the net so maybe nothing you can do but surely he is much heavier than that or is to the eye anyway. 

I still think he is a under-rated from a CA perspective, but that's obviously where personal opinion steps in and it's nice he got a bump in any case and Cafu rightly did as well.

I think some missing DOBs are here, I've been using them in my editions  - Nottingham Forest Under-18s - YouthHawk

Great work with the staff!

cheers,

COYR

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4 hours ago, robterrace said:

Yes.

This progress is called work.

I've spoken to Dean about certain issues. 

I'm not explaining any further.

Ah no worries, sorry thought you suggested earlier you would be going into detail on some of your analysis.

Cheers.

COYR

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On 26/02/2021 at 10:27, robterrace said:

Catching up with a few things in this thread, given the interest (once again), in my decision making regarding certain Forest players.. 

Once I get back from work, and have a chance to reply, I will go into depth.

hey mate, any progress on this?

[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

Started a save as Northampton Town and have noticed:

David Kelly (loan manager/coach) has long left the club

Pablo Garcia (Fitness Coach) has joined Birmingham City

[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

On 26/02/2021 at 10:08, Dean Gripton said:

Worrall has every chance of reaching that 142 and becoming an established Premier League defender that rating would imply, so there is nothing to reconcile there. He'll play very well for you in your FM save, if managed properly.

Absolutely everything that happens to him in your save helps dictate the likelihood of him reaching that PA! His (hidden) mental attributes are good so that will help, but of course it's not a guarantee because he could do his knee in during the first match, etc.

The researcher watches all possible games (clearly not all U18s and U23s are as easy to watch this season as they were in previous seasons), and was pressed to make changes, as every researcher was. He's going to have another look over the weekend. That doesn't mean he'll agree with you, and why should it! But he will look.

Bong had not played enough games to be downgraded. (It's interesting how your recent defensive improvement has come along with him in the team though). 

What I meant by 'reconcile'  was how do we reconcile your comments that Cook wont reach his PA and Worrall will.  What is the reasoning behind that projection?

[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

On 26/02/2021 at 10:27, robterrace said:

Catching up with a few things in this thread, given the interest (once again), in my decision making regarding certain Forest players.. 

Once I get back from work, and have a chance to reply, I will go into depth.

thanks Rob, looking forward to it!

[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

8 hours ago, thomasreidsj said:

Explain this then?

In the editor looks like there is a duplicate/two managerial entries for Martin, maybe one of them is being counted as having ended and causing the end date for his tenure in the history section.

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12 hours ago, Dean Gripton said:

Bong had not played enough games to be downgraded. (It's interesting how your recent defensive improvement has come along with him in the team though). 

Not sure anyone who has been watching would say that Bong has been a primary influence in that, even though he is playing OK.   We've had a pretty soft run of games and made some very good transfers in recent times that have improved the overall team  - Garner is holding well in midfield, Krovinovic and Murray have improved ball control in their different ways - and our goalkeeper, last years championship keeper of the year, is back in good form and somewhere near, though not all the way near his best.   All these factors have  played a part, but I have not read in any Forest forum or article, Bong being credited for making any sort of monumental difference to the team, some have praised his crossing, but most generally thing he is average at best. .

Using your logic,  though, you could do an analysis of Forest's record with Worrall in the team this year and without and you would probably draw a similar conclusion.  I haven't done the maths but I'm sure we are much higher in the table if only the games he has played counted, though don't quote me on that.   

But that's fine, if Bong is better than Worrall, then I am way off the mark and need to revisit whether I know anything about the game.  Again I'm not saying Worrall's 122/142 is necessarily incorrect, just his standing amongst his Forest team-mates is wide of the mark.

Cheers,

COYR

 

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On 25/02/2021 at 05:08, santy001 said:

At some point surely the answer becomes obvious in its own right though @Deano565 - those involved with the research simply do not agree with your position. Again, our guidance has changed, looking back at previous FM's is almost meaningless because we used to do things a different way. However, the development system of the game has reached a point where we don't need to re-assess a players potential from that point in his career. It very much used to be the case that we would assess a players potential along the lines of "As a 29 year old playing at X level, what can he realistically potentially achieve now?" and that simply isn't the case anymore. We look at players and will initially still give the -X PA for a while and then transition to a solid number. At that point generally we would look to leave that number in place.

Here's the guidance, from our researcher perspective, on PA:

there is a new way of looking at Potential Ability:
If the player is past what might be considered the peak of his ability, the PA should not be adjusted downwards to reflect the level of his peak ability (if that peak Current Ability value happens to be lower than his PA value). Care should be taken when reviewing a player’s PA, which should be adjusted only if it is thought that the value currently in place is erroneous.

- - -

If a player is consistently developing and always hitting their PA at the age of 23 when there's a big gap between PA & CA then that's probably more of an issue to be investigated from a bug perspective. 

You can raise points but the original post comes back to how posts should be made to influence change. What I'm advising is that even though you haven't met those requirements, the reasons you're providing are in stark contradiction to what we're advised to do by the games developers and head researchers. Yes other players may have had their PA's revised up or down, and there's someone who discusses that with the relevant researcher and signs off on that change. That a player hasn't lived up to their potential isn't a reason to disregard and in turn decrease that potential.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify some issues Santy!  My issue with research is demonstrated by the fact that there have been a number of changes to Stoke's players since the last update - Bursik, Campbell, Collins et cetera.  I'm a passionate Forest and there have been almost no changes to our database.  Im happy to cop a researcher having a different view on a player, but when there are next to no changes done after eight month's of season time and there has been huge flux in the team's performance and player performance in that time, it just doesn't make sense.  The issue is not that the ratings are wrong, just that they don't seem to be being scrutinised, so they aren't, seemingly, up to date.  Our best player, captain and only player being targeted by EPL clubs and the only player Forest fans dread losing, is only regarded in the database as the third best player in his position at the club and a lesser player than our 32yo back up left back.  I don't see how that is possibly not a problem?   Notwithstanding numerous other over-rated and under-rated players (if you go by the manager's hierarchy) and other oddities, that have made many of us Forest fans question whether our games and under 23 and under 18 games are actually being watched and appraised by FM staff.

[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

On 25/02/2021 at 06:45, Dean Gripton said:

Santy has explained the recently-changed approach to not reducing PA. The high PA is kept to enable the game AI to understand the highest potential he had, even if it is unlikely he will now reach it. 

Two serious injuries, to an ankle and knee, have been a major factor in him not fulfilling his clear potential.

Cook is very unlikely to reach that PA in any savegame, so it's a moot point anyway.

 

Thanks again Dean, so how do I then reconcile the issue of Cook and Worrall both being 23 year olds - with CA and PA of 130/169 and 122/142 respectively.  If Cook isn't likely to reach his potential does that mean Worrall isn't likely to as well?   What dictates the likelihood of reaching the database PA?  Obviously if the direction is to just change the database ourselves, it would help to know how we can do this in the most realistic way possible/

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3 hours ago, Dean Gripton said:

ForestStoney.

Your post has been hidden as it is an insult-filled rant. That said, I'll take on board the criticism and address them.

I discussed Lolley, Figs/Worrall etc with the researcher, and he was ok with the ratings.

You are aware that, in football, some people have different opinions. Well, that's what has happened here.

Fin Back's 'best' position is calculated by the game to be in defence, but that is due to his good mental attributes. I'll nudge the DC rating down to 'accomplished' which will mean the game code works him out to be a ball-winning midfielder.

I've now edited the non-players who have left, having just checked out every non-player at Forest in the database, and those changes will appear in the final data update, apologies for not having updated those earlier. 

 

Thanks for the reply Dean.

As for opinions, your point is correct and clearly I have a different opinion to the aforementioned researcher.  The issue then becomes whose opinion is more likely to be correct and the natural position you will take is to side with the researcher.   If you did a survey of 100 ultra knowledgable Forest fans, though, I would guess above 50% would say Worrall is our best player and most valuable one, notwithstanding a couple of youngsters we have (Mighten and Johnson) who could fetch silly money a la Ben Brereton and Arvin Appiah.  I would also gamble above 90% would say he is by far our best central defender.   It's so evidently apparent that to suggest otherwise is farcical.  

The opinion of current Nottingham Forest manager Chris Hughton is that Joe Lolley is not the best player in the club, else he would be playing regularly rather than being our fifth choice winger.  I think he is a good player still, but the game is clearly over-rating him and I wonder how someone following the club and researching could be happy with a player who can't get a game ahead of four other wingers being in an update as our best player.  Perhaps they don't rate Hughton's opinion.  Personally I think there is a reluctance to make changes for whatever reason and as a payer of the game for 18 years I feel like I deserve an answer.

Another example is Cafu, who the researcher has been able to watch all year as he has been an ever present in the side.  He is our 6th best CM in the latest update, behind Arter and Bachirou who aren't in Forest 25-man squad.  Now I can understand if he is not rated that highly rated as he is a polarising player, but anyone who watched him will have seen that he is quite adept in dead ball situations and this has been the biggest surprise element in his game, the ability to strike decent free kicks and corners and to be used in this way.   This doesn't seem to have been looked at.  He is probaby the least agile and slowest member of the team in general but he is rapid in the game.   To me, his attributes seem to have been massaged by someone who hasn't watched him play for Forest.  Why are there so few chances 8 months into the season when the researcher has had a chance to watch all these players and had a chance to make the game more realistic?

Gaetan Bong having a higher CA than Joe Worrall is an absolute travesty.

Again, a lot of this is subjective but then again you are saying that C.Hughton's opinion and mine is wrong. 

Fin Back is a goal-scoring midfielder and has no business being a defender.  

Cheers

ForestStoney

[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

@robterrace  Looking forward to the Jan Transfer Update, I know we've had a number of obscure signings and unheralded staff additions and all the academy and reserve player date of births are now available, not to mention many clear attribute changes needed.  Absolute pumped to play post update!!!

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1 hour ago, robterrace said:

Right.

Where do I start.

This post is symptomatic of a problem, not just with Forest fans, but, perhaps football fans in general. The expectation that, if something does not live up to a persons expectations, then, it makes it impossible to use. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion, but, its just something that I've seen in recent years across all forums and Forest is no different

I go through every player in the Forest squad and DB every research window (something which has been made easier for us this time round with improvements on how we access the database). 

Worrall, the choice was made not to increase certain attributes this summer, as the only interest that has been shown in him, has been from Burnley. There has been no concrete interest from other Premier League clubs, despite the way he has played. I've run through several seasons on the Beta, and he does end up playing Premier League football, and even, some times, at Forest.

Figueiredo having a higher CA than Worrall doesn't really matter, hes older, so, the likelihood of him achieving that becomes less. It doesn't mean I don't rate Worrall, I do, but, I have to look at things figuratively from all areas, and across the division. The rating for him at RB hasn't been added, as, according to my records, he has played there twice, and both times, he ended up moving back into the centre of defence. He prefers to play on the right side of a defensive partnership, and that has been reflected.

Samba, I have to take into account other goalkeepers in the division. According to his CA, he is better than all but 2 or 3 goalkeepers who were in the division last season, and, those 3 goalkeepers were from teams who finished above us. That is something, that despite our fans loving Brice, you can agree with. Yes, he won goalkeeper of the season for the Championship, and, is probably our best goalkeeper for many years (I'd say Mark Crossley was probably our best since the European Cup days, but, thats just me). His handling, yes, it may be a strength, but, how many times has he let the simple shot or cross drop, and concede or make a mistake as a result? 

You remark about Ioannou. Up until a short time ago, he was in the Cypriot research teams control. I gave him a precursory going over before deciding on things. His crossing is definitely something that will get looked at, but, again, its something I'll look at along with everything else he has done for us, and objectively change it.

As for Samba Sow. He played (when fit), 1870 minutes for Forest last season, spread across 26 games, which works out at 71.9 (lets call it 72 minutes a game). Of those, he made it the full length of a game 9 times, to the 75th minute 3 times, and past the 80th minute twice. So, on 14 of those occasions, he played 1261 of the minutes in total (sometimes, being on the pitch for 100 minutes altogether). I would say, when fit, Samba is a guy that could definitely last 80-90 minutes, which, for someone who plays the role and style he does, is about right, however, take into account his injury proneness (which, I won't share here), that is something that will more than come into play throughout the course of the season.

Other than that, I'm floating around the forums most days at the moment (being self employed and not working at the moment has its bonuses), so, feel free to contact me on here if you need to talk about anything I've put.

Hi Rob, 

thanks for your reply.

I eat and breathe Nottingham Forest.   I live in Australia and spend a few hours every day on Forest forums and keeping up to date with the team. I have supported the team since 1994 and been playing every Football Manager edition and the old champ manager since 1996.

I understand that the ratings of players can differ from person to person but to me that's not really the issue.  My issue is with realism as to how the players actually play and can be used and how the AI uses them.  

I think the Worrall and Figuereido situation whilst not a huge thing in the overall scheme of things of FM21  is a real dent in the realism of the game for hardcore FM21 players and hardcore Forest supporting FM fans.   

As far as I am aware CA is a big driver of FM team selection and in this edition Figuereido has a better CA than both Worrall and McKenna.  There is no Forest fan that would think he is better than those two, the transfer market suggests he is not better than those two and Forest managers selection policy would suggest he is not better than those two.  I find the CAs of Figuereido at 125, McKenna 123 and Worrall 122 is problematic to the CB hierarchy at the club and distorts the game.  Of course once the PAs kick in they will leave him for dead, but do you honestly believe he is a better player now?  And how is it explainable that both Fig and Joe stats have both not changed?  

As to Figuereido at RB, he can be used there in emergencies and it is an oversight in my opinion to not have him as an emergency option in the game. 

On Samba, he is without doubt the best keeper since Crossley and I think his handling is his best attribute and I think position for position he is our best player.  That's an opinion thing and no problem with your explanation.

Re Iannou: you may disagree but I think an opportunity has been lost to make him more realistic versus what is likely to be less reliable research quality from Cyprus than you can provide.  I know there is a very small sample size but still enough to have some of the new players playing more like they do for Forest, not necessarily rated differently.

The midfield hierarchy probably has issues as well and Fin Back is a goalscoring midfielder as other issues.

Anyways these are my frustrations, most stem from players having their ratings the same from one year to the next and what seems a reluctance to make changes to players which effect position hierarchies and the hierarchy of best players at the club which changes the way the game plays.  if you are like me and try to rectify some of these issues with the editor, not only is it time consuming but also has to be repeated with each data update (either official or third party).

But thanks again for the reply, nothing personal, just wanting what's best for the realism of the game and for Forest fans and for those wanting to play as us!

[[England EFL Championship] Data Issues]

25 minutes ago, Dean Gripton said:

Thanks for your post, matt_forest.

The new release contains the updated data for all clubs, including Forest.

Hefele and Clough are in the Reserve Team if Hughton is the manager (specifically set up to not be preferred by him, in extra code). At the same time, they are both set in the database to specifically be reserve team players, so if that hasn't worked, then it's a bug, I'm afraid. We'll look into it, because everything I have inputted to the data would put them in the reserve team. All our soak tests realise than neither player will be a significant part of the squad during the season in the game, as you would expect under current circumstances.

That said, nobody is being kept out of the first team squad to cater for them, so maybe they are being bumped into that first-team lists on startup due to squad size, though (as mentioned) that appears to be an issue that I shall check up on. 

I would challenge your statement that those other players have not changed. Johnson, Mighten, Richardson, Yates, Worrall and yes, even Lolley (whose profile isn't altered much, I admit, but then, he's 'exposed' in racing parlance) are rated higher now in FM2021 than they were in FM2020.1.0. I have just checked the database to confirm that.

Dawson's CA was dropped from FM2020.1.0. The drop wasn't much, but his overall ability has been dropped.

On reflection, maybe we were too generous with our revised Forest ratings, perhaps?

 

Hi Dean, using the editor, Worrall's PA and CA are identical to FM20 and Brice Samba is another example with exactly the same CA and PA, year to year.  Grabban as well.  This is worrisome as clearly Worrall has moved a lot closer to his peak potential and when fit is one of Forest's best players and of Premier League interest.   That Figuereido has a better CA to Worrall destroys the credibility of the database.  There is not one Forest fan on earth who would think Figuereido is a better player.   Samba had one of Forest's best keeper seasons since Peter Shilton and whilst I don't think he's massively underrated at 126, some of his stats needed some tweaking to reflect some of the obvious qualities he has shown in the last season.  That there hasn't been a change to his handling, for example, is emblematic of a problem when it's been proven to be a clear strength.    I'd also question Lolley going up when he is playing worse this year and last to that what he did in 2018/19.

Smaller details like Figuereido being able to play at a basic level at RB, where he has played on occasion are missing.  Anyone who has watched Ioannou play would see that his best attribute as a LB is his delivery but no change to crossing?  

You have alleged I talk drivel in the past but I can point to many, many things in this database that are emblematic of a lack of forensic detail with regards Forest and I wish it would be better so Forest fans and others can enjoy more realistic saves. 

FWIW I can't play a game as Forest due to the lack of realism and end up playing as Plymouth Argyle most of the time.  This should concern as I am head of one of Forest's biggest overseas support groups and through Ifollow have watched every game Forest has played for the last four years.

My question is does every player get a proper going over for each release?  If not why not?  And if they do, how does that explain the Worrall, Grabban and Samba no CA and PA movement situation and the Worrall v Figuereido issue?  For starters.

Can add Samba Sow as an issue as well.  When right a good player but anyone who has watched him play over the last 18 months would know he very rarely gets through a full game and his stamina at 16 is completely wrong.  How is it that someone watching Forest week in week out would let him be in the database as a guy who can play a full 90 minutes regularly?  It's just not right!