A.Pierfrancesco
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Posts posted by A.Pierfrancesco
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5 minutes ago, MHovel said:
This is not true! FM15:
Oh I completely remove that. Lol
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Not more complicated in your point of view, but from the point of view of the programmers. It isn't a easy task. I know It isn't so good, but you can you man marking to let the striker to track back
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2 minutes ago, Kcinnay said:
Disappointing. No defensive width settings, no vertical compactness settings, no extra pressing settings, no clear distinction between zonal marking and man marking. Still no extra options to tweak creative freedom. I sincerely hope that a defensive forward now will be tracking back like an attacking midfielder, to achieve vertical compactness. I was hoping that we could set out how a wide midfielder in a midfield 4 would defend (tuck in centrally, very narrow, or stay wide). Underwhelming.
Be realistic, it is impossible to have a completely different game within a year. Moreover, the game will be much more complicated than before. I'm right with you about the pressing setting. You already have vertical settings using the team shape.
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1 minute ago, 91427 said:
Disappointed that there are only 3 new PIs/TIs and none look hugely interesting (also wasn't a cm having the option to run wide with the ball in the game before?). Wanting a higher fluidity still means you have to play with a higher creative freedom for whatever reason. Pressing is still ridiculously basic. Was very impressed with previous videos but there's really not much to see in this one
In the previous games no central players have the possibility to run wide with the ball unless you teach him the "Run wide with the ball" PPM
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So basically a inverted winger is a Inside Forward into the ML/R spot. The mezzala is a kind of Box-To-Box with less defensive responsabilities but that will occupy the half space in the final third. I can not see the sense of having a Trequartista on the flanks, I've never seen one IRL. Giving the opportunity to underlap is quite intersting, especially when you use a winger and an IWB, the IWB will underlap the Winger dragging out a defender or offering a possible passing opportunity. Any news about some fixes on the role like the Half Back?
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The new report information about the opposition formation is absolute fantastic. Massive step forward in this section.
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In italy we refer to Mezz'ala (mezzala) the players that play outside in a three men midfield. It's similar to a box-to-box midfielder, he joins the advanced players in the attack phase and helps the defender in the defensive phase. The Conte's Claudio Marchisio is a classic example of a mezz'ala
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3 hours ago, yonko said:
Just wanted to post an update on my 1st season with Liverpool testing and experimenting with this tactic.
I won the league undefeated, winning 25 and drawing 13 games, but failed at the cup competitions. Didn't try that hard at them to be honest.
In the league, the team scored 79 goals while allowing only 20. I pretty much played my best 11 in as many games as possible. Rotated the squad for the cup matches.
Using such tactic requires a lot of management to make it work with Liverpool. I found it very interesting and this is certainly one of the best saves I've had the last few FM editions. The tactic evolved as the season progressed. Pretty early on I set up 3 variations of the tactic with a few small differences here and there, but the biggest difference was mentality. The 3 variations were:
Control Mentality - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down More, Prevent Short GK Distribution and Pass Into Space added.
Defensive Mentality - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down More, Tighter Marking and Quicker Tempo added.
Attacking Mentality - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down Much More, Prevent Short GK Distribution, Pass Into Space and Get Stuck In added.
The Control version was the default choice. Defensive was used to start away matches against the other top sides - Man United, Chelsea, Man City, Tottenham and Arsenal - and to shut up shop otherwise. Attacking version was used to get something more from the game - a winning goal, a second goal to establish dominance, sometimes I would even start a game with it.
In terms of player roles, I changed the BPDs into regular CDs simply because of difference in quality and I wanted to keep it simple. With the same idea I wanted to keep the PIs limited to a few. The SK has the usual short distribution instructions. The front 3 each have one PI - Get Further Forward for both Inside Forwards and Roam From Position for the Shadow Striker. The rest of the roles are completely default. In midfield I started the season with a DLP until January when I was able to make some transfers. Another reason this is turning into my favorite save is because I bought exactly the players I wanted when I wanted them - Eric Dier, Dele Alli and Will Hughes - young, English, versatile. This allowed me to change the DLP role to RPM for Dele Alli.
Another change is when using Defensive version is to make the AP to Support role and both IFs to Attack role. This is devastating on the counter and in most occasions it leads to a goal as the opponents try to get back in the game.
Naturally, the Shadow Striker is the main attraction with this tactic. Roberto Firmino was my leading scorer. He accomplished 3rd place in both Ballon D'or and World Player of the Year awards (Messi won both of course, Thiago Alcantara was second). He also won PFA and FWA awards, as well as Liverpool Fan's player of the season award. His stats for the season were: 35(5) - 24 - 10 - 7.53.
In conclusion, I would say that the first part of the season was trial and error mostly until I found what works for Liverpool and the players I had. I tried to simplify it and focused on match management. As I said, this is very challenging tactic with lesser team, even if they are of the quality of Liverpool. I would say that the most important positions to focus on (and make sure you have quality players there) are the 4 in the center and spine of the system - HB, DLP, AP and SS. The HB will have to intercept and tackle a lot (more than the defenders even), he will need a lot of energy and intelligence to do so, plus he will play a key role in the build up/recycling of possession. The SS will have to create, score, assist and be the first line of defense. It is very helpful to have someone as DLP who Comes Deep To Get Ball and someone as the AP who either Gets Forward or Gets Into Opposition Area - it adds a nice dynamic into the midfield.
I will keep going with the save and see what happens.
Interesting analysis, just one question, how do you cope with team that defend deep (aka park the bus)?
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I got some problems against team which park the bus. My player camping at the edge of the opposition area without space to make some run into the area to reach a killer pass. I'm playing with Control and Very Fluid setting. Will lower mentality or decrease fluidity help to create more space?
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@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I got some problems, I'm playing with Ajax (I know they aren't brace so I can not expect much quality) and as I said my tactic is more or less the same as your. The point is that mainly of my goals came from crosses from the WBs, probably because the only available space is on the flanks as each team which I'm playing against simply park the bus and hit me on the counter. When I enter in the final third my IFs who are instructed to play wider in order to stretch the pitch cut inside in the "golden zone" with also my SS and my AP-DLP camping at the edge of the area, then the only space available is on the flanks where my WBs (also instructed to play wider) are putting non stop crossing trying to find players in the area.
I think the main problem is that we are too much aggressive, we are camping in the edge of the area and the other team simply park the bus not allowing us to play that killer ball which unlock the defense.
How would you try to do to solve this problem? My main though is to switch to standard and slow down the tempo in order to let the opposite defense to stay a bit higher and so get more space to try killer balls. My second though is to switch to flexible or structured in order to create more space between the line.
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2 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:
The latter. BPD for my defenders, DLP or Roaming Playmaker in midfield depending on role, Complete Forward for attackers.Lately I have noticed that a lot of my squads end up on Roaming Playmaker, particularly during early development. Then Ball-Winning Midfielder plus Stamina if they need to improve their pressing (they always moan but 2-3 point improvement in work-rate and stamina is worth it).
Yeah, actually is what I do. If I see that some players need an upgrade in Positioning and Work-Rate I put them in the BWM individual training. I've also find out that is better to put Advanced players like AMR/L into CF individual training as it covers more attributes than IF or AP individual training
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On 5/5/2016 at 20:24, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:
Individual Training
Choose individual training programs which effect a wide range of attributes. I generally use Ball Playing Defender, Deep-Lying Playmaker, Roaming Playmaker, Complete Wing-Back, and Complete Forward.
Despite not using these roles on the field, the end product of these training programs is a well-rounded player.
When you talk about using these role for the individual training (which, by the way are the same used by me), it means that you rotate each player with that training program or you use BPD only for defender, DLP and RPM for midfielder etc... ?
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Nice thread @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! since FM2016 I was trying to replicate this system with almost the same role. Probably the only differences are in the "messi role" (i was using a F9 but then I tried with a SS and I've discovered a whole new world) and on the duty of the WBs.
Just few questions, do you like the tendency of the CWB to run wide with the ball? I've found it a bit disappointing since I think it isn't a pure "possession based" thing, I prefer to use the standard WB on support duty. The problem is that with defensive teams probably is better to have a role with an higher mentality but then if you select the Attacking duty here again the run wide with the ball PI....
Second question, how do you think the tactic would change if you choose the RPM instead of the DLP (obv with a proper player, I think Iniesta is not suited for that role)?
Third question, after watching the whole Barcelona Pep's era I think that I prefer to use the Salida Lavolpiana mostly when the opposite team were playing with a pair of ST or with a ST and a AMC, here when Sergio come deep between the two defender they will cope better the two opposite player. Don't you think is a bit useless when the opposite team plays with only one striker? The two defender will perfectly cope with only one opposite player, without the necessity to have a third player in the defense.
Final question (more a request actually), can you post some stat about your result with possession? Especially the % of possession the number of passes per game.
OT
What do you think about the Bayern Pep's era? It would be interesting to re-create a system with the two inverted full backs...
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@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I think that there is a mistake in the first post, you post two times the PIs of the IFR xD
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3 minutes ago, Dr. Hook said:
I think the best way to think of it is as a range around the player where he generally will not move out from- so he will move laterally with the flow of the play, but will generally maintain his central relationship with the rest of the team, and he will get forward at times, but doesn't generally push on into the box. I use an AP(S) and it is quite common for him to push up to the edge of area when the ball is deep in the final third, but he rarely goes further. So, yes, essentially you have it right- it is the opposite of the roam instruction, and he stays in his position relative to the rest of the team so if you are pushing the attack deep, as I mentioned, he will get up to the edge of area at times.
Thank you, i'm trying to implement a possession based tactic. Till now I used a DLP-S with a AP-A in the MC strata, but I think that the AP-A get forward to soon in Standard mentality and Fluid team Shape and sometimes he is in the same position of the DLP. So I was thinking about a combination of RPM and AP-S but I fear I will have the same problem about occupying the same space.
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13 minutes ago, Dr. Hook said:
The AP(A) has a higher mentality for starters, so he will play higher up the pitch and push forward more. Additionally, the AP(S) has a hold position instruction attached, so that he stays in the hole and looks for passes and will only occasionally get forward and shoot, or take a long shot.
Regarding the "hold position" it means that he will not go towards the ball (i.e. a Ap-S in the mcl will not go towards the other side of the pitch) or he will simply not get forward? My impression is that since "hold position" and "roam from position" are mutually exclusive it means that he will stay near is starting position, support the build up and not reach the edge of the opposition area.
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Stupid question. Will the team shape affect the affect the horizontal space or it will affect only the vertical space?
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1 hour ago, SuperFulhamFC said:
@Rashidi Here are my roles and duties, along with team instructions...
I've also just noticed that my RPM has positioning of 10, and my two APs have 8 and 7 respectively. Could this be a contributing factor?
Positioning only affects defensive position. You have to look at "Off the Ball" and "Anticipation" stats.
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On 1/19/2017 at 17:41, A.Pierfrancesco said:
Thanks,
I was trying to implement a possession based tactic with the following roles.
SK-D
WBR WB-A (in the WB slots with "stay wider" PI in order to stretch the pitch and provide width)
Central Defender (Defend)
Central Defender (Defend)
WBL WB-A (in the WB slots with "stay wider" PI in order to stretch the pitch and provide width)
DM Half-Back
MCR Roaming Playmaker
MCL Advanced Playmaker Attack (with PI "get further forwards")
AMR/AML Inside-Forward Support ( with PI "sit narrower" and one of the two with "gets further forwards", the first in order to take control of the half spaces and the second in order to drag defenders out of position with a diagonal run in the opposite area)
ST False-9
TI's used
Control mentality
Very Fluid Shape (I want my team to be compact between the lines and reduce space to use a shorter passing style)
Lower Tempo
Shorter Passing
Close Down Much More
Prevent short GK distribution
Play out of defense
Dribble Less
Roaming from Position
Slightly Higher Defensive Line
Work Ball into Box
With Lower tempo I want my player not to rush with their play and give the opportunity to the WB to gets time to move higher up.
With shorter passing I want my player to replicate a Tiki-Taka style and avoid stupid long balls. Anyway if we need a long ball, for example in a counter attacking situation, the two CM with "more risky passes" will attempt that long range pass.
Close Down Much more and Prevent short GK distribution are used to give the opposition less time on the ball and less time to think and to pess the GK and force him to a long ball.
Play out of defense instruction it ensures that the players will pass their way out of defensive third with short passes, this is dangerous against a team who presses high. For this I need players with good mental stats in for the Central Defenders, moreover they will be helped by the half back who will drop between the two CBs and stretch the two, also the RPM will come deep in order to offer another passing option. With the two CBs splitting and stretching the pitch, the two WBs will be higher in the pitch.
I'm still not sure on WBIB, i thick it to reduce the amount of crosses and the number of long shots.
I'm playing with Ajax, we are not playing bad, in fact we are scoring a good amount of goals (I think two per match) and not allowing much in defense. My doubt is that most of the assists come from crosses of my WB, while I prefer more goals coming from a through ball, maybe by leaving more space in the "golden zone" with my attacking trio trying some diagonal runs.
About Possession, even without Retain Possession we have 63+% of possession with 700+ passes attempted per game and an accuracy of 85+%. My two central Playmakers have the highest number of attempted passes.
Watching the game I think the link up is quite good, my False-9 is not isolated, and even if he receive the balls higher in the pitch with no support he turns his back to the goals and waits for support from the IFs of the Playmakers, the two WBs offer good width, but attempt too many crosses per match, sometimes they even try more than 15 crosses per match with a low accuracy.
@herne79 do you have any suggestion?
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1 hour ago, messinho said:
Now, the only goal that I score fall after a cross from the left winger. You propose to change the AML to IF?
No, it depends on how do you want to play. With an IF you will have less cross from your AML/AMR manly because the IF tend to drift inside in the final third, in this case they will be helped from the DFL-S who will come deep and create space fro the IF to exploit. Here the width will be given by your fullbacks, but I repeat, it depends on how you want to play.
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2 hours ago, messinho said:
It's me again
A few days ago I asked you for help with tactics. I'm working on it, but the main problems are with lone-striker. He scores little goals and I feel that it is out of the game (too deep). I have a few ideas to change the situation, but I do not know if they are good
1. Set team shape - change from flexible to fluid
2. Change role of lone-striker - DLF ( from support to attack)
3. Change lone-striker to advanced forward and AMR to winger instead IF.
For me it doesn't make much sense to use a W-A along a DLF-S, the main purpose of using a Winger is to cross ball to a player in the box, a DLF-S will drop deep and so he will not be in the box, so the W-A will cross to anyone.
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Thanks,
I was trying to implement a possession based tactic with the following roles.
SK-D
WBR WB-A (in the WB slots with "stay wider" PI in order to stretch the pitch and provide width)
Central Defender (Defend)
Central Defender (Defend)
WBL WB-A (in the WB slots with "stay wider" PI in order to stretch the pitch and provide width)
DM Half-Back
MCR Roaming Playmaker
MCL Advanced Playmaker Attack (with PI "get further forwards")
AMR/AML Inside-Forward Support ( with PI "sit narrower" and one of the two with "gets further forwards", the first in order to take control of the half spaces and the second in order to drag defenders out of position with a diagonal run in the opposite area)
ST False-9
TI's used
Control mentality
Very Fluid Shape (I want my team to be compact between the lines and reduce space to use a shorter passing style)
Lower Tempo
Shorter Passing
Close Down Much More
Prevent short GK distribution
Play out of defense
Dribble Less
Roaming from Position
Slightly Higher Defensive Line
Work Ball into Box
With Lower tempo I want my player not to rush with their play and give the opportunity to the WB to gets time to move higher up.
With shorter passing I want my player to replicate a Tiki-Taka style and avoid stupid long balls. Anyway if we need a long ball, for example in a counter attacking situation, the two CM with "more risky passes" will attempt that long range pass.
Close Down Much more and Prevent short GK distribution are used to give the opposition less time on the ball and less time to think and to pess the GK and force him to a long ball.
Play out of defense instruction it ensures that the players will pass their way out of defensive third with short passes, this is dangerous against a team who presses high. For this I need players with good mental stats in for the Central Defenders, moreover they will be helped by the half back who will drop between the two CBs and stretch the two, also the RPM will come deep in order to offer another passing option. With the two CBs splitting and stretching the pitch, the two WBs will be higher in the pitch.
I'm still not sure on WBIB, i thick it to reduce the amount of crosses and the number of long shots.
I'm playing with Ajax, we are not playing bad, in fact we are scoring a good amount of goals (I think two per match) and not allowing much in defense. My doubt is that most of the assists come from crosses of my WB, while I prefer more goals coming from a through ball, maybe by leaving more space in the "golden zone" with my attacking trio trying some diagonal runs.
About Possession, even without Retain Possession we have 63+% of possession with 700+ passes attempted per game and an accuracy of 85+%. My two central Playmakers have the highest number of attempted passes.
Watching the game I think the link up is quite good, my False-9 is not isolated, and even if he receive the balls higher in the pitch with no support he turns his back to the goals and waits for support from the IFs of the Playmakers, the two WBs offer good width, but attempt too many crosses per match, sometimes they even try more than 15 crosses per match with a low accuracy.
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8 hours ago, Dr. Hook said:
Sorry to be so late getting back at you here- I think you got really good advice there. With a two man midfield as playmakers, you are really only getting an attack through your wide men and AF- if your AF gets marked out, your Midfield duo will look out wide for forward balls. I'd say you need a midfield runner. The DF can be a great role if you have a midfielder he can link with high up enough on the pitch to create some movement. Try a CM on attack duty or support with "gets further forward" activated nest to your DLP, and see how it changes your midfield activity. Basically you want to create more attacking options for yourself other than wide balls to the wings.
An AP-A in the CM slot with "gets further forward" will provide any forwards run?
I think I've not fully understood this PI. The AP-A will be higher in the pitch or it will be essentially in the same position as without the PI but makes more forward run?
And moreover, what about a combination of a Ap-A (with gets further forward PI) and a RPM?
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I think you do not have the right support from the central Duo. The DLP-D will stay rather near the central of the pitch in attacking situation and it will not provide the right support. The AP-S will stay in the middle but I do not think he will provide any Forwards runs in order to unlock the defense. The DF will stay deep so he will provide a link between the midfield and the attack but I do not think he will provide support. On the other hand the AF will be isolated. Try to understand the Passing network in order to see the link between players and watch the shots in order to understand if you lack support.
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The 4231 Explained
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I ain't got time to play the beta at the moment but I would like to know if the SV in Attack would play like a RPM when in possession or he will be more "goal oriented" due to higher mentality. For what I've understood it seems to me like a RPM "on steroid" that when out of possession stay deep to protect the defense while when in possession he acts like a RPM/CM-A.