Jommelb
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Posts posted by Jommelb
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I know it's an old topic, but it's exactly what I've been looking for. Is this FM 19?
When I search for staff it just doesn't show the incline option. Any idea why?
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Keep us posted, I like the idea, but it seems a little extreme.
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Wow, this topic always resurfaces after some time. That's great, inspired me to start again after lots of frustration 1 or 2 years ago:)
I'm trying a 4-1-4-1, that's not very different from Cleons in the opening post. Some changes to make it fit my team. I'm expected to end 19th in the dutch second division, so counter should work. Defending goes pretty ok, we're not easy to break down, but we don't score...
There are 2 options to score goals:1. Triggered counter attacks
The counters get triggered a few times during almost any match so that's ok. But often they die very fast. I've spotted two critical things for the counter to work:
a. the first pass after winning it should be forward and reach the striker (this goes wrong very often cause defenders often just hoof it to places on the field where my striker isn't even close, tried the PI shorter passing on them, but it doesn't help much so far. I think they don't see it as a pass but as a clearance). I don't know how to fix this problem. Tried different roles on the striker. DF seems to have the highest success rate, because the striker is nearby and doesn't have the 2 CB's close to him.
b. The striker needs to hold the ball until support arrives and has to give a good pass that doesn't slow the counter. (Goes wrong very often, but that might be a quality issue. The striker often passes it too far back or not in space for a midfielder, or just loses the ball in a dribble).
2. Goals from 'normal' build-up play
Cleon says he also scores from quite a lot from normal, slow build-up play. The problem I face here is that we indeed have possession and are able to get the ball into the opponents half. But I don't create quality chances. When we reach the 18yard box the opponent is organised and because and there's not a lot of movement from my players to get in dangerous positions. So in the end one of the players is trying a shot from distance. Maybe this happens because of the many support duties. But if I use more attacking duties, players get more aggressive and there's less chance to trigger the counterattacks.
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Played first season with FC Dordrecht, definitely overachieved. I've been tweaking the tactic a lot, but last half of the season I used this one. Started with 4240 with an IF and a Winger. WM(a) on the left cuts inside and stays narrow. DM(s) has more direct passes and more risky passes (has ppm switch ball to other flank)
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I'm curious if you're gonna achieve that style. I find it hard to play direct passes into space with a strikerless system. At least from a very deep position. Most of the time my players don't make the runs into space when the ball is that far back.
Noticed one thing: why a HB with 3 central defenders? I wonder if that will work, he's got no space to drop into.0 -
I suppose that's a no
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Haha take it easy man. The reason I didn't want to discuss that was because it's not where my question is. And yes I felt a bit offended, but I know that it says something about myself too, so it wasn't meant arsey
I hope you still want to respond.
And merry christmas of course
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On 24-12-2017 at 10:26, Cleon said:
that means using duties that sit on top of the players marker aren't really effective unless someone is making the space.
I don't get what you mean here, that might be because English isn't my native language. Sit of the of the players marker, I can't make sense of it:P
On 24-12-2017 at 10:26, Cleon said:The IF role works and the player finds space by moving central, that's what the role is about and the bread and butter of it. If that's not what you want then yes, you have the wrong role. He starts wide and comes inside not the other way around.
Of course I understand that, but if I pick a winger he doesn't just run to the byline and stops moving when he doesn't get the ball, because he finished his trick. He will move back to search for the ball or to make this run again. I expected the IF to make a run inside and when he doesn't get the ball, move back to make that run again. But he doesn't do that apparently. But not really interested in discussing this. Feels like you treat me like I'm dumb so I still wanted to respond and explain myself ;).
On 24-12-2017 at 10:26, Cleon said:It doesn't matter you haven't used a playmaker but you've still instructed the player to play a specific way and that's the reason your play is so centralised. He is doing exactly what you asked of him.
Totally right, Thanks for pointing that out. I used the stay on position because I was feeling he was getting in the same area as the IF and they were too close together occupying each others space. But you're right this is another consequence. I removed the PI.
On 24-12-2017 at 10:26, Cleon said:To get behind the opposition and beyond them it requires actual space. Someone creating space/a diversion, someone to run into that space and people actually supplying them the ball to allow that.
Makes sense indeed. That's what I've been trying last couple matches without a lot of success. I feel the only player who can actually be a diversion or create space is the striker. So I've been changing his role. Tried different things: CF, DLF(o), DF(o), last 2 added PI roaming. He's moving a little more, but he's not really creating a lot of space. Now I'm trying to get the ball quicker from the right to the left with exploit flanks. It gives the back more crossing possibilities, but the actual problem stays.
You have any tips in how to create space with this formation?
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1 hour ago, Cleon said:
I've covered this already, so not sure what you need help with? I did a full article about it in this very thread, the Mentality vs Mentality section. I also covered it in all the other ones too and spoke about how important movement is and the different ways you have to create it based on how high up the pitch you are.
Thanks for the response, I did read the article that's the reason I've been trying different mentalities. I've also tried it on standard and counter mentality. We're sitting deeper then and when we move forward there's more space behind the opposition. But when there's no through ball given in an earlier stage of the transition we end up in the same 'recycle possession without being dangerous again'. And that is really frustrating as I can't find the answer to it!
1 hour ago, Cleon said:You are so high up the pitch and no-one is moving to create any kind of movement or to pull the opposition wide.
With a WB(a) and a W(s) on the rightflank and a WB(s) on the left flank I'vr tried to create width. It's working now and then with a through ball to one of the backs who crosses it in.
2 hours ago, Cleon said:Then give him a reason to go wider. Everything you do is in the centre, there is no passing down the flanks, so why would he go wide and stay wide when the ball is stuck in the middle and not going to the wide areas?
The easy answer would be: to create space for himself, but apparently that's not the way the role works. We're indeed not going wide a lot and I don't understand that. I'm playing without a playmaker so no ballmagnet in the centre. The WB's really have space, but indeed the ball always ends up in the middle.
2 hours ago, Cleon said:That's because your CM's are just recycling possession constant between each other and players are coming inside looking for the ball. It's not actually crowded, there's just zero movement and no-one is looking to attack or get behind the opposition.
The cm(a) is trying to get in behind, but at moments he can't recieve the ball, then he drops deep, gets the ball, plays it back and goes forward again. Theoretically the IF(a), and CM(a), and the DLF(a) now and then, should try to get behind the opposition.
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I'll show you my struggles in the video below. A little context:
Mentality: Control (sometimes standard), shape: fluid TI: Shorter passing, play out of defense, sometimes more wide.
Formation
GK (d)
WB (a)----CD (d)------CD (d)--------WB (s)
Anchorman (d)
CM (a) CM (o)
W(o) IF (a) (PI:stay wider)
DLF (a)
How I want to play: control the game, have possession, create chances.
Ways to attack:
1. Crosses from the right side of the pitch DLF(a), CM(a), IF(a) in the box
2. Through balls to IF, mostly from the CM(o) who is the most creative player and has PI's: dribble less, stay in position (otherwise he gets too deep), more risky passes
3. Through balls to CM(a), from CM(o) or DLF(a), that went very well last season
Problems I see: Overcrowding the area just outside the box. The IF comes inside and stays inside so there's no movement anymore. Is that normal? I think it's better when he goes wide again and tries to infiltrate again. The winger(s) isn't wide enough, but I wouldn't know how to keep him wider so there's more space for the cm(a).
The movement isn't that bad in my opinion, especially the cm(a) has space now and then, but the timing is bad, he goes deep when he can't get the ball. When he comes back in the midfield he gets the ball, but that's way too late.
I'd appreciate feedback.
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2 hours ago, Cleon said:
Thanks, didn't see that one yet. Another request: I wonder if you could show us a whole match from this team. I think lots of players get frustrated because you show the moments where it all connects perfectly, but I think there are a lot of moments when it doesn't (since you're not winning 25-0;)) I don't know if it's hard to upload a full match, but I would appreciate it.
Thanks for the work you're doing btw!
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All the examples you posted from goals seem to be goals from counters or fast transitions. The AI isn't in position yet. I wonder if you have examples of goals against an organised defense. I find it hard to get the IF productive against defensive teams, because the space he moves into is almost always occupied.
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You're right about the chances, it's indeed about better chances. There's no PPM for long shots. Decision making could be a problem. Well I'm not playing with a very good team. The players don't get isolated, but it's more that there seems to be no option inside the box to pass the ball to.
About your suggestions:
- The team shape, I think you mean change to more fluid? But that means players pay less attention to their own mentality and more to the team mentality so I guess my BBM will get more defense-minded?
- If I give him an attack duty, he will also be closing down more, that gives us a less chance to trigger a counterattack.
- That's not the problem, it's not going too fast.
- Haven't tried that option yet.
I've been analyzing and I've uploaded a video with some moments that happen very often.
There's not a lot of penetration into the box but there's also little space. I don't really know what to change to get better chances. I hope you can help me a analyze the problem with this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YLRUEpZ2AU&feature=em-upload_owner
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Thanks for your response Herne.
I've been watching full games and the counterattack gets triggered now and then, but won't last long most of the time. So my expectations are probably too high. That makes me wonder if it's worth the effort to create a counterattack like this.
I lost in the play-offs for promotion so second season I'm in the VNS again. But this season the results are less good. Most of the matches I'm dominating, but I just can't create chances with this tactic. We're playing the ball around at the opponents half, but without creating chances. What gives me a lot of matches like this:
Tactic:
GK
FB-CD-CD-WB
A
WM(o)-BBM-CMs-WM(a/o)
DF
How can I create more chances? So far the danger comes from these two scenario's: Througt ball to our left WM who crosses the ball. Or a pass to our DF who drops deep and our BBM is getting into the box, but this happens not very often. If I give my midfielders more attacking roles they will also be putting more pressure when we're in defense so the chance for a counterattack triggered gets smaller. One the problems might be that I don't have any creative players, 9 is the max for creativity.
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Ok, I've been reading this topic over and over en trying to get counter attacking to work, but i'm becoming a little desperate.
I've been experimenting a lot, but now I've gone back to the basic tactic Cleon used. It fits my players so it seemed like a good idea. I'm managing Kingstonian (youth scenario) and the tactic worked very well. I was in the top of the league (Vanarama South). But all my goals came from normal play and not out of counters. Now and then a counterattack is triggered, but very often killed within seconds.
So, tactic:
GK
FB-CD-CD-WB
A
WM(o)-BBM-CMs-WM(a/o)
DF
Problems i'm facing:
1. Getting the counterattack triggered. Lots of teams play 4-4-2 and play direct football. So kicking the ball to their strikers, very often I win the ball before the opponent gets far into my half. So no counterattack is triggered. They also keep their backs behind and often one of the central midfielders. They won't come out and just kick the ball to their strikers. I really don't no how to get counterattacks. Only TI i'm using is: drop D-line a little.
2. Creating chances out of open play. We often have a lot of possession (+60%), but we're not effective. We play the ball around just before the penalty-area in the diamond DMC-MC-MC-ST, but without options to pass a ball through. That's why I end up with a lot of shots from outside the penalty-area, but no good chances. Or we just lose the ball and face a counterattack ourselves
I've been trying to tweak the tactic, but I end up with a few attacking roles with the consequence that we have fewer chances of triggering counterattacks.
I hope someone can give me a helpful tip.
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Effective scouting
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I've started a save with 1860 München and I've got 5 scouts. I wonder what's an effective way of scouting? Right now I've every scout given the assignement to scout a specific country (Germany, Holland, Poland). They all have 2 limitations: Salary and determenation at least 11. Halfway the season they found 11, 13, 4 and 3 players. That doesn't really give me a lot of choice in players. Are these normal numbers or am I doing something inneffective?