paracoolo
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Posts posted by paracoolo
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On 16/03/2024 at 02:58, CitytilIdie said:
I just finished my first season with AC Milan looking to replicate these tactics. @AceCream is correct in that "these formations and systems were developed by Ancelotti more out of necessity due to the players he had rather than some tactical ideology like Total Football or Gegenpressing. "
I've attempted to purchase players that I believe to have similar styles of play to those that played in these Milan sides. I'll also adjust my roles depending on who is playing there - for example, Immobile would be a Poacher like Inzaghi while Giroud would be a Deep Lying Forward on Attack like Gilardino
I probably used the diamond more then I did the christmas tree formation
@paracoolo is correct in that they defended in a 442 and attacked in a 4321.
Resources
- Tactics Explained: AC Milan's 2007 Champions League Winning Team (youtube.com)
Excited to hear everyone's thoughts as it's my first post!
I would argue that Kaka was more of a AM-AT than SS-AT SS-At is more like Nkunku,Rooney( early 2000s after that its more AM-AT), Havertz ( Leverkusen)
and I'd add ( dribble more , roam from position , take more risks )
But with the rest of the tactic I agree. I'd add" More direct passes " For pirlo
but yes Ancelotti is a manager that adapts with his player. If he sees that his squad has a great playmaker he'll play around it if he doesnt see that he always adapts depending on the team
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it was a 442 that transformed into a 442 diamond I think I did a post about it let me see but if not theres a video where Ancelotti talked about how he did it against Manchester United
Is it possible to replicate it ? Sadly not really since FM has not brought the movement of RM to RCM in offense or the reverse hence why replicating teams that defend in 442 but attack in 4-1-2-1-2 is hard to do.
But If I remember correctly the defensive shape was like this:
and offensively it woud look like this:
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I've decided to change the Trent role to FB-SU and add ( get further forward+ more direct pass,take more risks , dribble less, sits narrower, run wide with ball,cross more often,cross more deep) and he stays more deep in the build up kinda like trent. I love it.
Also theres no role that emulates the Henderson role so I decided to go with a CM-SU with ( run wide with the ball, roam from position, mark tighter, stay wider)
Wijnaldum role : VOL-SU ( Move into channels)
Robbo role: FBAT - Stay wider, More direct passes,Run wide with the ball
VVD role: CD-DE : More direct Passes
Other cd-de : take fewer risks
IF-AT ( Mané role): Pass it shorter , roam , sits narrower
DLF-SU ( FIrmino role): Pass it shorter, roam
W-AT( Salah role): Cuts inside,pass it shorter, roam
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Based on this video:
To begin with;
The Buildup:
As you see here, Allison really often goes short and passes to the defenders mostly.
But sometimes we can find fabinho dropping in between the cb or wijnaldum acting like a 3rd cb:
The 19/20 Liverpool team are a very vertical team, looking to attack quickly and often.
The team utilizes overloads often and let the wingbacks(+VVD) send diagonals and long balls
in FM terms that would mean focusing play down left and right.
Attacking Shape:
Liverpool when attacking are really fluid, down the left firminho can often come deep to prevent the opposition's midfielders to follow Wijnaldum's left wing run:
Henderson would sometimes find himself to be the most wide player on the right side while Trent attempts early crosses:
He would also try underlapping runs to try and take marker off salah to allow him to cut infield:
And when both WIjnaldum and Henderson would hold position, the wingbacks would go higher up and send some early crosses to both mané and salah and Firmino who would arrive late:
so it would form a 2-3-5 shape
Also, the front three would often roam and roam around inside the box and Klopp would allow the Wingbacks to cross as much as they want, allowing room to failure.
When they would need to score in some important games, Wijnaldum would often find himself making runs late to receive a cross from trent( or robbo)
When the ball is central, Firmino would often come deep to give flick-ons to either mané or salah:
And so, I will try to replicate this tactic in fm24:
This is what I've gone with:
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On 12/02/2024 at 07:23, crusadertsar said:
How do you find your goalscoring with two strikers dropping deep?
its really hard prolly u need to be really agressive and give aggressive instructions
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On 12/02/2024 at 06:53, bosque said:
Hi! RPM and AP go to the AM strata because of the positional play introduction. Try him as a DLP. I find the DLP to go side to side where the ball is.
do you think that with dlp, it will still do that 3-2-1-4 shape? or it will look more like a flat 3-3-4?
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Even in the DMCL position, kova operates too much in the halfspace so I've decided to try him DM
and look at the results:
its not perfect but at least its better than Before. Probably if i do IWB instead of L-SU , the rpm will probably stay in the middle much more
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On the Pitch:
theres already an issue with trying kovacic as a RPM in the cm position is that he goes too much up and not enough in the middle, so I'll try to put him in the DM position to see if it helps
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Pep Guardiola in the 2nd half of the 2020/21 season used a 442 with double f9 and dominated with it to win another PL.
The tactic:
As I try to emulate this tactic with 23/24 City, I've decided to create my own variation of it. ( Since Cancelo and Zinny are not there anymore, it is very hard to reproduce what they are doing with aké and gvardiol.
So here's my variation:
and this is the shape we want to recreate:
so turning a 442 into a 3-3-4 kinda...
Interesting isn't it?
So in this thread, I will try to find a way to make the variation look like the 334 shape.
Enjoy!
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On 10/02/2024 at 05:48, Triggerusa39 said:
I am in 2030 with Fulham. I took them from a relegation team, to a side battling the premier league and Champions League.
I just dont seem to get the best out of my Advanced Forward who is really good. I know he has 7.2 and lots of goals but I often see him with 6.3, 6.2. He also cant play as a PF.
So, I tried moving Di Nicola to an AP (Att) for one game and I suddenly created lots of chances.
So is the issue the AM(a) AF combo? Is DiNicola the issue? Does AP (A) and AF combo work at a high level or do I try Darren Jones?
The tactic is a 4231 Gegenpress with default instructions. I have changed roles to suit the players.
I woiuld try switching am-at to AP-AT and switching WB-su to IFB and IW-AT to w-su, too much people cutting in the middle.
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11 hours ago, BeeInExile said:
Yes, exactly. Three of the most common complaints in how the game works:
-You can run really high intensity tactics without suffering ill-effects.
-Youth players don't get picked enough so they can't develop.
-Physical attributes are king - mental and technical attributes are less important.
All three of these would be alleviated by having injuries at a realistic level, instead of the reported 80% of reality that is programmed into the game. But if a patch is perceived to have too many injuries, watch a large section of the fan-base scream bloody murder. Personally I would rather SI just ignored these people, but at any rate if people are complaining about the above, they should realise they can't have it both ways.
you're right. I realized there's less injuries than before. When there was a lot (I think in the first version of fm24) I used to complain about it but I realized it brings the opportunity to play my younger players too and to also rotate the squad more. It also helps in making leagues more unpredictable. (per example: City may be less good than last season because Haaland and KDB are both injured. )
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Imo a quick fix to that is to make tactics like Gegenpressing,Tiki-taka,Vertical tiki-taka harder to master ( Tactical Familiarity) and it gets harder depending on the avg CA of your squad or the league in general.
This would replicate irl a bit. Since its hard to have a very sound pressing system that works against most teams.
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4 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:
I have watched this video and I do think that people are making a mountain out of a molehill.
What his evidence does is to support a core thing that SI promotes. That the players Overall Fitness at the start of the game is the biggest factor as to whether a player plays well and stays clear of fatigue and injury. He has used the method of keeping all the but the tested attribute the same and there is rationale in his method.
Naturally in the game players have different attributes but one thing to consider is a high tempo, high trigger press does not mean you will be fatigued. For instance Man City play with a high press and work-rate off the ball but can dodge fatigue because they also have a high possession stat which will have an effect on their fitness.
I actually think that possession could have a bigger effect on fitness than the tactical style as that allows rest.
I agree with you on that. Most people that say gegenpress is op and look at the physical condition often forget that somegames you have around 60% possession. If you have more of the ball you will run less. The ball goes faster than the players. Hence why some people can play gegenpressing and manage to keep their players with good physical conditions no matter the stamina stat. Remember also in Gegenpressing, your playmaker is the pressing! So its like counter attacking but instead of regrouping and pressing in your own zone, there's plenty of pressing traps to win the ball quickly and counter from there. Gegenpressing is not just some players running around like dogs when they lose the ball. There's a preparation/organization behind it. if all the 11 players ran to the opposite team player that just gained the ball, the player could easily pass it back to the gk or long-ball it to the front.
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On 11/12/2023 at 14:58, baris28 said:
These types of discussions doesn't go well with moderators or fans.
While I like overall match engine this year I advocate (not a fan or moderator but as a player from past) for future versions I would limit engine for player roles only, NO team instructions. I don't see much apart from counter attack intruction clearly visibile in match engine.
would be better to remove roles than team instructions tho... Roles imo is what sells FM in terms of tactics but atst since some people think it doesnt behave the way they want it or FM describes it, its better than removing team instructions. If you remove team instructions, you cant decide what style of play you want to play and that literally kills the purpose of FM? You're a manager. You are the one that decides how your team plays.
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8 hours ago, SaintEtienne said:
Long feedback from a long-time lurker…
Some context:
1. I’m currently in a (hopefully) long journeyman save. The first seven seasons (starting as unemployed, then rising from Vanarama South to the Premier League via three clubs) were played on FM23. After gaining promotion to the PL with Portsmouth, I imported the save to FM24 and have subsequently played three seasons in PL before getting the job as Borussia Dortmund manager.
2. I’ve played a lot of FM over the past five years, so I have a fair experience to compare FM24 with.
3. I tend to play slowly and micromanage (I do all press conferences, interact with players as much as possible, and take charge of training, player development, and transfers). I’m also a clean-slate tactics player: I design tactics from scratch based on certain ideas that appeal to me, the players I have, my overall squad standard, and particular situations. I don’t generally use intense and high pressing approaches, but occasionally I adopt such ideas.
My feedback is a mixed bag…
Match engine
This is the best ME I’ve ever seen in FM. I use extended highlights as a minimum (and occasionally use comprehensive or full match), and I really like what I see.
The animations are great, but more importantly I actually feel (far more than in previous versions) that I can see my tactical ideas and tweaks play out on the pitch. I see plenty of contested possession (not as much ‘chaos’ as on FM23, but it still seems to be there) and a good variety of goals.
Set pieces do feature a little too prominently in highlights, and I think the last goal from a direct free kick I’ve seen was on FM23. I’ve even got to the point of hoping to concede one from direct free kick, just so I know that scoring from them is still possible in the game…
Player positioning and overall movement are much improved. I have seen no problem with defensive play; certainly, I see defensive mistakes, but even the best defenders make occasional mistakes IRL. What I don’t see is any fundamental issue with defending in the game: in my save, defenders do what I expect them to do (poor defenders make fairly regular mistakes, good defenders make only occasional mistakes).
Similarly, goalkeepers appear fine in my save. My GK regularly pulls off important saves and puts in fine performances, and I’ve been denied wins by outstanding opposition GK performances. Of course, I see mistakes, but again I would expect this IRL, and they tend to be in line with the quality of the GK.
SI trumpeted improved lighting (and it looked great on one of their marketing videos). I see no evidence that it has actually been implemented (the lighting actually seems worse to me, as if most matches are played in a very light mist).
The issue of pre-match and half-time team talks having no effect on body language is strange, but my experience tells me this is a visual issue and that my team talks do have an effect on players’ morale (but clearly this needs fixing).
Too many goals?
Not in my save (but I don’t dispute that this is an issue some users have encountered). I’ve found the number of goals to be extremely realistic across my three FM24 seasons. In about 160 matches played on FM24, I’ve only been involved in five matches with more than six goals: a wild, rollercoaster 4-4 at Fulham, a 7-1 win against one of the weakest teams in the league, a 4-3 epic win over Man Utd, a 5-2 win over Chelsea in an FA Cup semi-final (but that was after extra time), and a 5-2 win over relegation favourites Bochum in the Bundesliga. I’ve had a fair few 4-2 and 3-2 results, a nice sprinkling of 3-3 and 2-2 draws, but also plenty of low-scoring matches (most of them) and what seems to be the right amount of goalless draws.
Similarly, I’m not seeing excessive goals in the divisions I’ve played in. It all looks realistic to me. In my final PL season, there were a lot of high-scoring matches involving Crystal Palace and Nottingham Forest, two of the weakest teams in the league, both playing 442 (as someone else has pointed out, it becomes close to a 406 in transition, so they are horribly exposed on the counter). They each shipped about 100 goals. My issue here is not with the tactic (it works, but it is maybe not the best with a weak team); it is with the AI managers persisting with it for 38 matches.
In my current Bundesliga season my results have been: 0-2, 0-1, 3-1, 1-0, 5-2, 2-0, 1-1, 1-0, 1-0. In CL they have been: 3-0, 0-1, 0-4. If anything, given I’m playing a fairly aggressive tactic with BVB and have a strong squad, I’m actually struggling to score goals.
And I find it perfectly possible to play defensively. I achieved a good number of fine performances and results playing a low block, cautious, counterattacking style in many PL matches. In my current season, we lost 1-0 at Bayern in a pleasingly drab match of congested midfield (that was my plan – it was undone by one moment of individual brilliance).
So, my experience clearly differs from that of some others. That makes me think this is not a universal ‘bug’ (but I have a lot of sympathy with those experiencing it, because I would hate that). Obviously, I hope the ME is improved, but I really would not welcome changes that mean binary scores are the norm.
Is it too easy?
Again, not in my experience. I quickly climbed the leagues in FM23 (smashing Leagues One and Two, winning a couple of PJTs on the way, and getting promotion to PL at my first attempt with Portsmouth). In the PL with Portsmouth, I overachieved, but I hardly pulled up any trees: 12th, 12th and 9th were my three finishes (but we did reach three domestic cup finals, and I won the FA Cup in my final match in charge). If anything, I’m actually finding FM24 harder than FMs 21, 22 and 23, but that makes it a particularly satisfying experience trying to work out how to get to the next level.
AI managers
Despite SI claims, I don’t see any evidence of improvements to the AI.
Substitutions: I see the AI managers frequently make substitutions, but usually only very late in the match. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an AI manager (in this or any other FM version) do what I do: routinely make aggressive substitutions from 55 minutes (and half-time sometimes) onwards.
Squad building: I haven’t got deep enough to judge this. But my impression is that the terrible AI squad building of previous versions remains terrible. Anyway, I’m conflicted about this. On the one hand, I want realism and a challenge. On the other, I also want to have a realistic chance of some glory during my saves, so I don’t mind that the AI is a long way below Klopp and Pep levels. On balance, I find the current level of AI (in)competency works for me as someone who is pretty good (but not great) at the game, who plays realistically, and who wants to have a reasonable chance of winning things during my save.
That said, some lack of logic really needs addressing. Man Utd took my best defender (50m on a release clause) from me and have left him to rot in the reserves for two seasons. PSG beat me to a couple of wonderkids and left them to rot in the reserves. Really good regens are underplayed and ignored by international managers, and hardly any regens appear in any awards. These have been longstanding issues in FM, and it’s really disappointing that nothing appears to have been done to address them for years.
Interactions, press conferences, interviews
I haven’t had any problems with interactions (no team meltdowns, etc.), but my reputation is now quite high, I’ve long figured out how to navigate most of the exchanges, and I put quite a lot of effort into building good relationships with my players. But I don’t see any evidence that an area of the game that has always been weak has got any better.
The logic is still often bizarre. My pet hate is the juvenile wording of many exchanges: would a board really tell me to “stop wasting their” time if I dare to suggest a club improvement? Would a player really tell their manager that they don’t think they can drop my treatment of them (praising their performance)? Some of this stuff is embarrassingly bad; it’s been in the game for years, and it’s still there.
Press conferences and job interviews are still rubbish. Dealing with the press is such a big part of a manager’s job, so it is disappointing that this area of the game has been so poor for so long. Every year I hope some improvements are made; every year I’m disappointed.
Other things
Set-piece creator: I like this a lot, and it’s a vast improvement on anything FM had previously.
Injuries: I haven’t noticed anything weird. I have had GK injuries, but nothing unrealistic. I experienced a couple of injury crises with Portsmouth, and I realised I was probably being too intense with my training schedules. I’m not complaining: if anything, the game could have more injuries (I build squads based on likelihood of injuries, and then squad and fringe players don’t get enough playing time because I never get nearly as many injuries as I anticipated). But the balance is probably right as it is.
Overall
The claims that this is the “most polished” version of FM24 ever and that this version is a “love letter” to FM are ridiculously overblown marketing guff. The bloat of previous years remains, and most issues that have been around for ages (rubbish interactions; terrible press conferences; illogical AI squad building; supporters giving their manager a C+ despite five years of extraordinary success; the board being “devastated” because we haven’t scored enough goals from set pieces; managers threatening to recall a player from loan because I used him as a DF rather than as a PF; terrible stadiums – no Yellow Wall at BVB; and a host of other stupid stuff) are still there. I still love the game, but I long ago abandoned any idea that SI thought such things were worth fixing (as opposed to introducing manager timelines, squad planners, and face paint). My guess is that these are areas that need to be rebuilt from the ground up.
However, I’ve been playing FM24 a lot and having a great, fun time with it. This is largely because of the ME. I’d go so far as to say that this is the best version of FM that I have played. Naturally, a patch that fixes bugs and improves the game is desirable, but in general I’m finding the game as it stands to be in good shape, so I’m hoping there aren’t any dramatic changes that mess too much with an ME that seems to me to be extremely good.
Same. Lots of ppl say the game is too easy for them but I cant even win. Like i dont know what makes me lose ngl. Prolly morale
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Every year , there's always a bunch of players who are unhappy. The game is still the best manager game EVER and no other game can come closer. FM24 is the best FM i've played ngl. Huge improvement compared to FM23 especially the Match Engine, tactics, stats.
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then why do you think the winning( by winning i mean more wins than draws/lose combined) teams of the top 5 leagues play high pressing?
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9 minutes ago, SergeiG said:
High pressing is not an automatic win card, look at Manchester United.
they win 1-0 , 1-0 games and its not like they dominate. Winning teams in the top 5 leagues mostly play high pressing idk how it's not a fact.
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It's kinda funny that everyone here complains that high pressing is easier to win but it's the same irl.. So what do y'all want, a more tactially-fair game or a realistic game? Because realistically, the last 5 CLs winners all play some sort of high pressing tactic. 2022/23: City 2021/22: Madrid 2020/21: Chelsea 2019-2020: Bayern 2018-19:Liverpool.
The only team that didnt really play A high intensive pressing was Madrid but if u watched the game, Liverpool dominated the game with their high pressing. So it kinda makes sense that high pressing works better than the others.
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23 hours ago, caioalberto11 said:
MacAllister (DM) - Was playing more like a DLP(D)
Szobo (MCR) - Was a Mezzala or CM (A) with Stay Wider
Gakpo (MCL) - Was a Mezzala (A)just so you know this is the passing map.. if they are mezzalas, liverpool is playing very narrow. And no , trent is not IWB-A, Iwb-a goes too much forward for him. Trent is deep so he's a support duty. I'd play him FB-SU with: Sits narrower,take more risks, cross more often, cross from deep, cross aim far post, dribble less, run wide with the ball ( or wb-su with the same instructions.
Anyway here's my replication( I may be wrong tho):
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the tactic here isnt really accurate since Anelka was on the right side and morientes on the left and also I think campo and karanka switched side too.
anyway here's my replication of it :
if someone wants to test it, please give me some feedback after it. I would love to see how the tactic fares in FM. Enjoy!
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This is how I would do Fergie's 08/09 Tactic ngl. Tevez can maybe switch to PF-SU if you want and all the 3 attacking players have ( Roam from position on) I added tackle harder for DLF-SU ( Rooney's role) you can also add close down more for the dlf-su ngl
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While I like overall match engine this year I advocate (not a fan or moderator but as a player from past) for future versions I would limit engine for player roles only, NO team instructions. I don't see much apart from counter attack intruction clearly visibile in match engine.
Milan's 2005-2006 Tactic Question/Request for FM 2024
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I would also love to know how does the shape translate in the game? Like does it play like a 4-1-2-1-2( or 4312) when the team has the ball?