[Newgen fullbacks still have low crossing and dribbling]

@svonn I have added crossing and dribbling values to the spreadsheet.

[Newgen fullbacks still have low crossing and dribbling]

58 minutes ago, svonn said:

@Kyle Brown Now, that data provided by @LeoFM looks like something that would absolutly match the statement by the QA team but also explains the lack of players with attributes in that range. This even has cascading effects - If the Newgens are generated with too low CAs (only for these Positions?), this will not only cause less players with "natural" attribute distributions above that threshold, but it might also lead to less playing time at senior level at age >18, so also players at senior level will have worse stats. I wonder if this effect might sort of "balance out" as soon as the real players are removed from the game, since the AI will be forced to play the newgens. I might start a test save to check that at some point.

 

Actually, I've misread, at first I thought there were 18 at 2023, but it's the other way around. Can you say anything about the rough distribution of CA? Are there generally more high CA newgens later, or just more outliers?

According to my findings, there are more players in the range of 60-90 CA in 2023 compared to 2030.

I added the CA ratings to a Google spreadsheet so you could have a look at the numbers yourself: (pardon my poor spreadsheet ability, wasn't able to make a combined chart)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12NE48-d3p_f7xZ4VuZPHWSNwwuKekGsEo8ytXl-59V4/edit?usp=sharing

[Newgen fullbacks still have low crossing and dribbling]

@svonn Sure, these numbers are from the latest 24.2 patch as well:

Of 660 natural fullbacks aged 16 or under in 2023:
359 have 10+ crossing
49 have 10+ dribbling
31 have 10+ crossing and dribbling

*for some reason, 423 out of the 1083 fullbacks at the start of the game were newgens, and only one of those newgens had 10+ crossing and dribbling

Of 973 natural fullbacks aged 16 or under in 2030:
140 have 10+ crossing
27 have 10+ dribbling
8 have 10+ crossing and dribbling

I should also add that in 2030, there were 18 newgen fullbacks aged 16 or under with a CA of 90+. In 2023, there was only one.

Also here are the numbers for fullbacks aged 21 or under in 2030:
7045 in total
280 have 12+ crossing
59 have 12+ dribbling
17 have 12+ crossing and dribbling

These numbers suggests the 24.2 is maybe a little bit better, but honestly if you account for the 1000 more fullbacks than in my beta simulation it's a minuscule difference.

[Newgen fullbacks still have low crossing and dribbling]

4 hours ago, Kyle Brown said:

We've chatted about this with our internal QA team and first and foremost, the issue mentioned is in a much better state than it was in previous editions. 

That's not to say it's perfect, but unfortunately it's a limitation of the current system. The attributes mentioned are heavily weighted on the overall CA, so to have them boosted would have a very detrimental effect on the overall ability of full backs game wide - making them extremely unbalanced. 

We did make more positive strides within the progression coding however, and you'll notice that as the players get older the attributes will appear more realistic and at a satisfactory level.

I'm afraid there's just little more that we can do at this stage, but it's one we have our eye on and want to improve on for future editions of FM. 

Fair play for the honest answer even though it's disappointing, but definitely what I expected.

So I understand the issue has to do with the weightings of attributes for fullbacks. But doesn't this mean that some other attributes grow to a higher level for newgens than real players to "compensate" for this? Like a 100 CA newgen will on average have higher marking for instance than a 100 CA real player?

[Newgen fullbacks still have low crossing and dribbling]

Any updates here? Is this something that is going to be resolved before FM25?

[Newgen fullbacks still have low crossing and dribbling]

1 hour ago, abcdf said:

What I find honestly ridiculous is that developers did not even bother replying to this thread to give us some kind of answer as to why this issue has been there for like 10 years. I mean, people took time out of their life to basically do THEIR job and report on a bug that is so obvious and it does not even get acknowledged. Incredible

To be fair, this was reported on a Saturday and it's only been one work day since then. They haven't been replying in the other bug reports created since then either. 

I'm sure we will get a response, and I hope they will provide some useful information. I would really like a fairly detailed explanation from SI as to why they have never been able to fix this. If this is something that is borderline impossible to solve within the current newgen generation/development mechanics (which I'm starting to believe), then please tell me! I would rather know that then be disappointed each new FM release because of false hope...

[Newgens not developing certain technical stats]

I'm gonna add some of my findings in my save where I simulated until 2048 with 107 000 players loaded (originally 123 000). Every active player is now a newgen.

Centre backs
There seems to be a massive decline in the number of ball playing defender types of CBs. 
Passing, first touch and vision specifically are not developing enough for newgens. 
For some reason heading ability also seems to be very underdeveloped for newgen CBs. 
I also found a decline in marking and tackling but not as extreme as the previously mentioned attributes.

Out of 21512 natural CBs in 2023: 
4083 have 11+ passing
3096 have 11+ first touch
1994 have 11+ vision
9673 have 12+ heading

Out of 18226 natural CBs in 2048:
782 have 11+ passing
689 have 11+ first touch
761 have 11+ vision
1514 have 12+ heading

Centre mids (only actual CM players, not DM or AM)
For CMs I actually found that every single technical attribute except technique was significantly underdeveloped for newgens compared to the real players.
The mental and physical attributes however was mostly balanced with the exception of acceleration, agility and pace.

2023
Dribbling - 3109 (CMs with 12+)
Finishing  - 1191
First touch - 10616
Heading - 1161
Long shots - 4844
Marking - 2008
Passing - 10296
Tackling - 4531
Technique - 8663
Acceleration - 10990
Agility - 9675
Pace - 9793

2048 (number of CMs was 26% fewer than in 2023)
Dribbling - 569
Finishing - 230
First touch - 5912
Heading - 201
Long shots - 1148
Marking - 930
Passing - 5992
Tackling - 1323
Technique - 8906
Acceleration - 3334
Agility - 4499
Pace - 3524

Attacking mids (AML, AMC, AMR)
I do recall having a hard time finding newgen AMs with decent finishing in recent FM editions and my findings suggests that's an attribute that newgens do not develop enough.
I also found a massive decline in dribbling and concentration. 

2023
Dribbling - 11365 (AMs with 12+)
Finishing  - 5776
Concentration - 2100

2048 (number of AMs was 29% fewer than in 2023)
Dribbling - 2167
Finishing - 1339
Concentration - 272

Strikers
2023
Finishing - 11728 (STs with 12+)
Heading - 8079
Concentration - 1879

2048 (number of STs was 17% fewer than in 2023)
Finishing - 6516
Heading - 2143
Concentration - 228


I have uploaded my save game named "Beta Simulation 2048.fm"

[Defenders positioning]

I'm gonna add to this, my RB defending here is just nonsensical. Happens in the 37th minute
https://i.gyazo.com/9e3d7ed65aa96d5f862759d8b66d2e05.mp4

Athletic Club v Celta Vigo.pkm

[FM23 Beta : Players Inability to Understand Surroundings When Defending Set Pieces]

This has been an issue for several editions of FM in a row now. Defending players seem to be paralyzed when a ball comes back in to the box after a set piece has been taken. 

[No technical player development]

If anyone wants to help out with testing the update:

 

[No technical player development]

12 minutes ago, noobcake said:

Many of these issues were there already in FM22 (and years before). I actually consider FM22 after the fix for the age attribute degradation to be kinda reasonable as far as player generation goes. Unless you wanted a SK(A)... or an attacking WB/CWB... or a BBM... or a TM.

It's just that whatever changed now made these issues so much worse

At the same time, now that they are forced to focus on these issues, maybe they will be able to make this the most balanced FM edition ever. Highly doubt it tho...

[No technical player development]

37 minutes ago, noobcake said:

Here, an actual statistical analysis on 50k+ players (only using the ones with 130+PA) in 2022 vs 2050 and comparing it between FM22 and FM23

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1muGtM_UJyCLV4T5__J3k5MweudFRDms8jKuP137SoPE/edit?usp=sharing

It's very broken, compared to FM22 most things got significantly worse

I can link the actual FM22 spreadsheet if you want it as well

Great analysis, hope SI will have a serious look at this. 

So many glaring issues with player development that you point out here - honestly makes me wonder whether the task to fix this before release will be too much for SI.

And I just can't comprehend the fact that they bragged in the blog post about having worked on improving the long term game world balance...

Going to be very interesting to see the results when they patch this though.

[No technical player development]

I hope you are okay with me copy pasting this from this thread:

I have gathered some data with respect to the attributes of outfield players with media description elite/world class/legendary in 2022 vs 2039.
I ran a simulation over night and when I checked it out this morning I did observe that the technical development of players was very poor in 2039 in comparison to 2022, among other findings.
I wanted to see just how big the difference was, so I exported all top outfield players attributes to excel and then took the average attribute value with both the 2022 set (89 players) and the 2039 set (52 players).

Here are my results:

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2022:

Physicals
Acceleration: 14.0
Agility: 13.8
Balance: 14.4
Jumping reach: 11.3
Natural fitness: 15.1
Pace: 14.1
Stamina: 14.5
Strength: 12.9

Mentals
Aggression: 12.4
Anticipation: 15.5
Bravery: 13.5
Composure: 15.1
Concentration: 13.6
Decisions: 14.5
Determination: 15.8
Flair: 14.3
Leadership: 12.4
Off the ball: 14.4
Positioning: 10.9
Teamwork: 14.5
Vision: 14.8
Work rate: 14.1

Technicals
Corners: 10.0
Crossing: 12.2
Dribbling: 14.2
Finishing: 12.7
First touch: 15.6
Free kicks: 11.4
Heading: 11.7
Long shots: 12.5
Long throws: 6.0
Marking: 9.2
Passing: 15.2
Penalties: 12.8
Tackling: 15.8

The average FM23 'top' outfield player 2039:
Difference from 2022 in parentheses, any negative change more than 1 attribute point in red, any positive change more than 1 attribute point in green

Physicals
Acceleration: 12.4 (-1.6)
Agility: 13.4 (-0.4)
Balance: 14.3 (-0.1)
Jumping reach: 11.3 (±0)
Natural fitness: 13.4 (-1.7)
Pace: 13.0 (-1.1)
Stamina: 15.5 (+1.0)
Strength: 14.8 (+1.9)

Mentals
Aggression: 11.9 (+0.5)
Anticipation: 18.5 (+3.0)
Bravery: 12.9 (+0.6)
Composure: 16.6 (+1.5)
Concentration: 15.6 (+2.0)
Decisions: 17.5 (+3.0)
Determination: 15.3 (+0.5)
Flair: 11.0 (-3.3)
Leadership: 17.9 (+5.5) !
Off the ball: 12.1 (-2.3)
Positioning: 14.6 (+3.7)
Teamwork: 11.8 (-2.7)
Vision: 14.8 (±0)
Work rate: 12.0 (-2.1)

Technicals
Corners: 8.1 (-1.9)
Crossing: 6.2 (-6.0) !
Dribbling: 8.7 (-5.5) !
Finishing: 5.6 (-7.1) ! (jesus christ)
First touch: 11.4 (-4.2)
Free kicks: 8.7 (-2.7)
Heading: 8.9 (-2.8)
Long shots: 8.6 (-3.9)
Long throws: 6.9 (+0.9)
Marking: 12.6 (+3.4)
Passing: 11.2 (-4.0)
Penalties: 8.5 (-4.3)
Tackling: 9.8 (-6.0) !

The physical attributes are pretty balanced (maybe the quickness should be a bit higher for 2039).
Anticipation, decisions, leadership and positioning are the standout mentals in terms of being too high for the 2039 group, with flair, off the ball, teamwork and work rate being the opposite of that.
As for the technicals, this is where the extremes start.
Crossing, dribbling, finishing, first touch, passing, penalties and tackling all being on average more than 4 attributes points lower for the 2039 group than the 2022 group. Marking is the only attributes that was higher for the 2039 group by a significant margin.

My thoughts:
Obviously this is maybe not the perfect example and test as I am using the group of top players in 2022 as some kind of benchmark.
Future generations of top footballers will of course not have the exact same set of attributes as the current one, so in my opinion a difference of less than 1 attribute point is expected and realistic.
I hope this data can be helpful for SI in the process of making the long term player development in FM23 the best ever!

I also want to mention that only one league was loaded while simulating, which could have impacted the results. In my opinion, that doesn't really matter, because player development should be realistic either way. But I will try this again with the top leagues loaded just to see if the results are different!

[Trialed players appearing in shortlist(s)]

19 hours ago, Kyle Brown said:

Really sorry for the delay in a response, but after some initial testing we were unable to reproduce it.

If you happen to still have an example present in your save - could you upload it to us?

 

 

No problem! I have uploaded a save file called "Trialed players appearing in shortlists" where an instance of this is present. 

I forgot to mention one crucial detail I've just discovered though: the trialed players only appear in shortlist which already have some shortlisted players in them (maybe that's why you were unable to reproduce this). You will notice that I have one empty shortlist called "Free" in my save, and no trialed players are showing up there.