[*Official* Football Manager 2023 Feedback Thread]

Not enjoyable to play. See you at the next one. 

[Step Up More / Drop Off More - do they work?]

15 minutes ago, (sic) said:

The ball over the top issue is definitely real, and defenders definitely don't react to them well in general. It's currently an issue with the ME itself. 

Whether the TIs have anything to do with that, we don't really know. Only the SI do.

Perhaps because how I want to play it affects me more acutely than other peoples tactics, hence my frustration is greater than others. 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

4 minutes ago, XaW said:

It not extremely easy to know the details, but for me it looks like you are VERY reliant on your wide midfielders to score. In these screenshots I think more or less only Carrasco and Lemar has scored for you. So I think the issue with your AF being isolated is really the key to this. And as I said, I'm not entirely sure how to fix it. Based on the xG story you create some decent chances, but too many poor ones. Perhaps removing the higher tempo will help things, but it could also have other bad effects. Based on what I see there, I think your issue is that you are not bringing the strikers into the games enough, so your issue is that there is too little pressure on your opponents. At least that's how I see it. I think this is more an issue for the tactical subforum, rather than GD, so please continue this in there as you are more likely to get the right eyes on it, as well as better answers.

I think you're right. It is a question of the trade offs between using DMs for solidity and their contribution to linking the middle of the pitch. Will read about and potential submit this to the tactics forum because I would like to nail this.

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

3 minutes ago, XaW said:

As I said previously, a single match is hard to gauge correctly. Can you show the xG story for that match? Seeing as you have over 3 xG, but also 22 shots, I wonder if you are creating some big chances or just loads of smaller ones, and xG story often shows that well.

Of course, within a single match, you could have been unlucky. After all, there are countless cases of a team not winning even if they do just about everything correctly. Sometimes the unexpected happens in real life as well as FM...

 

Here's another one, lost this time. Maybe just unlucky but seems quite a pattern. 

 

 

The Celta Vigo one:

 

 

 

 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

22 minutes ago, XaW said:

Looking at one game in isolation is rarely enough, and I imagine Mirandés is not exactly a team that you would struggle against anyway. That said, look at how little xG you AF has. As I said, I think he is being isolated, and for this game Carrasco had a stormer it seems. Looking at how thing ACTUALLY went down though, you got a pen to take the lead. Into the 2nd half the opponent (being at home) had to push forward, and then your players got enough space and I bet you hit them on the break, at least for the two last goals.

Away games against top teams are the hardest ones for everyone, so you'd have to look at individual games to know why. What kinds of goals do you concede? Are they down to what looks to be individual mistakes/opponent brilliance or do you suddenly have 4 strikers open in the box? Are your players being pulled out too much, or are they too passive, or even some of each. Looking at the details is key there to know why something is happening either way.

If I was to gamble at a possibility, I'd say the chance of your strikers closing down and letting an opponent DM having all the time on the ball to dictate the game, would be quite high. If your opponent are playing with a DM or a CM playmaker, I would expect that player to have a high rating against you on a regular basis. I say this because with two DMs in a 4-4-2 you are giving away a lot of space between the lines ahead of the DMs and if they have a player like Modric, he sure can pick a pass against just about anyone if he gets time on the ball. Perhaps having OIs on those roles would help? I would attempt it, at least.

 

I think this is a good example. We created 10 clear cut chances created (CCCs) to their 2. My AF position between two strikers had an xG of 2.0. We kept their forward at bay to an extent comparatively. My defenders underperformed and we conceded a goal to a long shot. I will try OIs by position, actually. Maybe that's the final jigsaw puzzle. 

I'm not quite sure on what the solution is to squeeze the gap in the middle whilst maintaining compactness. 

 

 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

19 minutes ago, XaW said:

I often use a tactics board to imagine what the roles will create as a base, so for your defensive shape you have something like this:

That's fine. Also, conceding long shots is not necessarily an issue, as you'd often rather have long shots against than 1v1s against. As long as your team pressures the opponent when they shoot from long range, you should be in a good shape. You are inviting crosses, so your central defenders and DMs should be very comfortable in the air against the opponents. I also hope you don't have much man marking going on there, because if you do and they have a rogue runner into the box, you might have an issue.

Going forward, I imaging this will most likely be how it looks:

The central midfielders and the defenders will be quite close I imagine as you are telling all of the to be quite conservative. The wide midfielders will go inside and allow the fullbacks to stay wide, but not too high as they are not wingbacks. The PF-D will also drop deep, so you'll have 3 close players around the AM strata. I worry this could cause too many players to be part of the buildup and too few part of the actual scoring. At least the AF will be key in terms of goals because he will have to be both quick and good at finding space, and possibly big and burly to take advantage of the crosses from the fullbacks. The rest of the players seems to be a bit behind, perhaps only the left midfielder really helping there.

Without seeing how it plays out I'd imagine the AF being isolated, and you having loads of passes between the central mids without much penetration.

As I said earlier, I'm not a tactical genius at any rate, and I don't particularly like defensive football, so I won't try to give you pointers as to how to improve it since this is a bit outside of what I'm comfortable saying with confidence. I'm better at spotting what is wrong, rather than actually fix it! Yes, I often get annoyed playing myself as I know what the issue is, but I struggle to find the correct solution in my own games! I would encourage you to start a thread in the tactics section, if you haven't already. There are so many people in there better than I who can give good suggestions as to how this could work.

 

Thanks for the breakdown! Here's a recent game:

 

I'm not quite sure why it works. I think my big issue is opposition away games against strong teams. I see others struggle with this and I don't know what it is going on under the hood to correct it. 

 

[FM23 - What are your findings for successful tactics/styles?]

12 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I think you miss my point. I am saying in that thread that it "seems" like the only way to play but it's not. You can be very successful by not using high pressing style. In fact I'm testing a 4-2-3-1 right now that's doing rather well and I don't have any extreme geggenpress instructions. You can read about it here.

 

 

This is interesting. Thanks for this. I notice quite a few goals conceded. Where are they coming from?

 

Here's what I'm trialing. I'd be keen to know where I can improve as it seems that you enjoy the defence side of the game like I do:

 

Edit: Both goals they scored from goals in behind. I'm not sure what I can do to correct this. I'd just like clean sheets, really. 

 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

I'm not a tactical genius, but I do have a couple of questions here. You say you want to do the Simeone style, but you have a low line and a high press. That is the exact opposite of what Simeone does. He keeps this lines TIGHT. You'd be hard pressed to see his side sitting deep and having the midfield step up leaving a massive gap in between. You also have a low risk tactic, but a high tempo. Those can often be contradictory. The whole midfield is also on support, giving the players more judgement calls as to when to do what. Simeone has a VERY structured game, but as even the game tells you, this is a flexible setup. Also, why is Oblak a Sweeper Keeper? He is not one that ventures outside his box and is arguably best on the line. Especially with a deep defensive line that strike me as odd.

Please don't take this as a criticism of you directly, but I struggle to see how this would work, or even that this is meant to replicate Simeone.

Playing defensively do work in FM23, as @Rashidi has shown, so it's not like there is only a few ways to win. However, you need a cohesive tactic no matter what it is meant to do, and I don't really see your current setup working, or even what it is intending to do.

 

These are good points. I put the defensive line a notch because with the two DMs, I saw TOO much compression. I agree with the high press too. To counteract, I put my forward to close down less often. This allow opportunities to press up high if it makes sense to do so but generally they will revert into shape. Ideally, I'd like to play standard line, mid-block. When I did this, I found that I was conceding a) too many long shots, b) allowing wide players to make through balls down the wing to cross for a high xG chance for a striker. It then made sense to close down those opportunities, rather than keep shape overly. This tactic was a response to what I saw in game.

This is my ideal tactic that I'd like to perform:

Full backs stay wider. Both DMs on hold position. 

 

 

[FM23 - What are your findings for successful tactics/styles?]

9 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

That's the second thread you posted this on. Do you have actual evidence to back up your bold statement? Have you actually tried any lowblock or midblock tactics to make such a conclusion? Or are you just talking out of a place where the sun don't shine? 

 

This is you in your Mourinho thread:

"Seemingly 9/10 tactics in the tactics sharing forum are some kind of Gegenpress-style tactic. In the last few versions of the game it is no secret that high pressing, high-intensity, "balls to the wall" attacking football started to seem like the only way to play. "

I would be more than happy to perhaps to a testing league with low, mid block and high press tactics. My feeling is that the high press will overperform the latter. Supplemented by this video: 

 

I do not think the recharacterization of the match engine is as pronounced from FM22 to FM23 in the pressing department and its equation to win %. I might be wrong, though. 

 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

10 minutes ago, luka_zg said:

I conceded 14 goals in the league after playing 38 games. My keeper had 26 clean sheets. Cheers.

Nice. 

[3 at the back - anyone having success?]

8 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Ignore him, he is posting the same thing about pressing being the only way to go in the game in multiple threads on here. Just trying to get a reaction out of people.

Aye. Was seeing red last night. Not my finest hour.

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

4 minutes ago, Cam NBH said:

@VeniVV post your tactic so we can have a look at the roles and TIs

 

 

 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

3 minutes ago, kevhamster said:

For stats and analytics, I definitely recommend the Tato skin.  The matchday tablet is actually useful now and contains info throughout the match.  I found out about it through a streamer and it's way more useful than the default skin, and as a bonus looks good as well.

https://www.fmscout.com/a-fm23-skin-tato.html

 

Thanks, this a helpful. I’ll give it a whirl later on and see how I get on. 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

1 minute ago, Rashidi said:

Then step back play without any TIs. Keep thing simple. My Saachi system has very few team instructions it’s only a flat 442, but in order for me to have come up with that I actually went back and created a tactic without any team instructions. When I understood and saw the impact of one then I slowly added another. Step away, decompress and start with less. You might find what you are looking for.

I concentrate on roles and duties first and foremost. Then I see how it looks and how the mentality impacts the roles and it’s impact on the four stages of play.

I like to keep it simple initially because I can see where to identify easily where deficiencies are.

I am currently using a high press but with strikers to have balanced press trigger on cautious mentality. This allows my strikers to apply a press if the opportunity arises without having to go past a line of engagement so it presents more opportunities to turnover, especially against lesser opponents whilst maintaining shape.

My two DMs act as holding midfielders with a degree of risk to allow progressive passes but stop counter attacks. Full backs create width.

My tactics perform well most of the time. I just cannot stop conceding goals to small xG chances. Nor when coming against a different tactical style, understanding what needs to change.

Away games seem to my problem. I’m not sure what is going on under the hood to counteract it. I read that is because of the AI using a more positive mentality at home. Fine. But what tools can I use to counteract that? I’m still not sure what mentality is and I don’t understand, despite reading countless posts on it, what it does on the game systems. There doesn’t seem to be a unified consensus on it. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Step Up More / Drop Off More - do they work?]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Stop spouting your mindless drivel on the forums, if you don't know how something works then stop pretending like you know tactics. 

The drop off more button encourages teams to take a safety first approach. Your backline retreats, players close enough to the ball carrier may apply pressure, but it depends on your pressing intensity and any OIs you have set. If your defensive line is too low, then the Drop Off More instruction may create issues as you vacate the area in front of the backline creating space for the opposition to work in. 

I have used the drop off more instruction well with high pressing systems and I am very careful when using them with low block setups where the defensive line is a low one. Sometimes I want a Saachi kind of system where we play in a compressed zone so I set a high line of engagement and a high defensive line with a 442 but I opt to play with a drop off more instruction because I want the whole block to move. Sometimes I want to camp and work ball into box, with a faster team then I choose step up more because my defenders are intelligent enough to use the instruction.

Its not the driver its the car. learn to use the car.

See, I read a post like this and I feel a sense of encouragement that it is possible.

The issue I have is that my weakness is balls over the top with drop off more. It doesn’t seem viable to allow players, at any level, the time and space to play a through ball because of my defenders having trouble dealing with those balls. 
 

I would ideally like to play a 442DM that is compact, narrow, and hard to breakdown. But it feels that giving other teams time on the ball is a death sentence. I have used selective pressing but it still allows the opposition to overperform because of the lack of pressure we give. I notice other YouTubers cite the ball over the top issue as well. 
 

Like I said in a previous post, the information in the game and on the forums, digital channels etc, for years has been contradictory. I don’t know who to listen to anymore. I am 100% happy to learn but I don’t know who anymore. It would be good to use the in game descriptions but it doesn’t feel adequate.

I recall doing a test of the same match 20 times. The variance was quite outstanding. I’d win 4-0, 2-1, 3-1, then lose 4-2, 3-1, 5-0, then win 3-1, lose 4-1 etc. It made me feel the game was a bit of a lottery to be honest. I’m sure that with the game systems it isn’t a lottery and it is more sophisticated than that, but that is how it feels like. 
 

This game in particular makes me feel more like a passenger than any other FM. 
 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Your recent history of posts have shown that you are more inclined to throw your lollies out of the pram than trying any serious attempt at understanding the game. This isn't FM22 its FM23, Its a new game with a new match engine that requires a new approach. Its not asking you to relearn everything, a logical sound balanced tactic still works.

A low block is possible, a mid block is possible. I have played now numerous matches with a low block and a high block and they work. Yes you are expected to notice things happen in a game. You are expected to notice when your players are getting jaded and need to be taken off. If they are playing in key positions, even the assistant manager tells you to take them off when they are dangerously close to being run over.  This is a game about football management, not a game where you stick in one tactic, sign the best players and then pretend you are the digital equivalent of Guardiola.

SI isn't forcing you specifically into a tactical style, your biases are the preventing you from trying something new or learning something new. You are making a lot of assumptions about how the AI plays and are assuming it uses a preset that is high pressing, when in reality it has other tactics to choose from.  And some of those tactics are low block, very structured, defensive mentality tactics that are hitting you sideways. If you don't understand what you are doing wrong, then it doesn't come from a lack of information from the game, but from a lack of understanding of the tools that are available in the game.  If it is deflating you, then perhaps take a step back and try and learn how the game plays? Or take your tactic to the training and tactics forum for help could be the way forward for you.  You could also start from ground zero and learn what the instructions are about. If you can't afford the time nor the patience to learn, my advice to you - stop trolling the forum with your nonsense.

 

I have spent countless hours going through this forum, your videos, multiple blogs, dev posts etc. I generally find it’s contradictory really.

I’d feel far more encouraged if there was an official in game wiki that without ambiguity tells me EXACTLY what mentality is (yes, it’s risk - but is it? Has it been reworked?)

I have for multiple FMs trying to recreate a Simeone 442. Mid block, low block, high press variations depending on the opposition. That’s the challenge for me. I don’t expect to win every game. I do hope to be competitive, though. 
 

I look at things that you taught me “are my players providing key passes? What is the xG like? Are we progressive? What do we look like in transition?”

I recall on a Zealand and RDF video, albeit for fm21 or fm22 that your tactic should have a high press. I look at tactics on the forum for years that suggest a high press, even with tactics that suggest Mourinho/Simeone styles. And if I’m not going crazy, I recall a post by you in which you said that the difference between high press tactics and low blocks haven’t been closed up in gap of performance. 

I don’t feel clever enough not do I feel I have the tools to adapt to things in this game. I don’t understand why, in a match, we have less ways of understanding in real time what is happening vs. On fm17 where I can have data points consistently through the game. 

I think you’re completely right by taking my posts recently and extrapolating that I’m a troll. I’m going through a bit dark time and in some infantile quest for escapism where I can, for a moment, where life isn’t drowning me and driving me to point of topping myself, I use this game to escape it for maybe 15 minutes, an hour or more. So last night you caught me on a snapping point. It happens. But perhaps it feels like this game just isn’t for me anymore.
 

If I have to spend countless hours (And I mean countless) to have a basic grasp of how I can use the game mechanics to produce the football I want, then perhaps I need to take a step back from the series. It was for me for over a decade but now the game just leaves me feel sad without joy because I don’t understand what to do with the information presented to me. 

 

 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

4 minutes ago, Mcfc1894 said:

It's not hard at all just look at most threads more than 50% of people are overachiving Games are meant to get you thinking fm in the past especially last few editions become so easy it was almost click and continue and don't even have to think about tactics this game is finally going the right direction and you now in ways have to think about tactics 

Do those tactics involve high line pressing by any chance? Just like how if the AI uses high line press, they overachieve? 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

4 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

The irony is in this current thread there are posters aggressively attacking SI for making the game too easy:

FM23 difficulty

 

How can it be both?

Probably because we want to do tactical styles like mid to low blocks and not play high press, possession football that the ME favours. AI managers that have this preset generally get 95-100 points. Any other style gives you 82-90 points. No other style is viable. And maybe it is, but immense micro management. But then I remember I’m playing this as a form of recreation and to relax. 
 

there just simply aren’t enough ways to understand when things are going wrong. The lack of info and analytics in games, except at half time, is criminal. I don’t understand this artificial creation of difficulty. Is it to force us to watch the mediocre graphics? I don’t know. I’m getting tired of the game and this company.

It’s pretty deflating that their obsession for simulation without enabling players to accessibly make tweaks and course correct. 

[The game is too difficult. Is there plan to fix it in patch?]

Keeping clean sheets is impossible. The game is driving me insane. And the tactical UI is terrible. This game doesn’t feel fun. It just turns me into a toxic human being and actually degrades my mental health because I want to enjoy it but I can’t. 

[FM23 - What are your findings for successful tactics/styles?]

Make sure you press. Low blocks working as an optimal tactic are a myth. 

[confusion about impact of team mentality on passing directness]

It shouldn't really matter that much. So long as your team presses high and frequently, you'll see a lot of what you want to happen actually happen on the pitch. 

[How I managed to beat Pep (doing Pep's things)]

So long as your tactic has high enough pressing, it'll be fine. 

[Defence-First Football - Winning Champions League with Club Outside of Europe's Elite (UPDATED on Dec 11, 2022)]

11 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

You can drop the DL and press in a midblock. I believe that Mou would use a PF when he has one. What kind of player has Drogba been if not a PF who was constantly harassing opponents? 

This is good if you want to under perform as the match engine only really favors pressing systems. Has been like this for years and will continue to be so. 

[3 at the back - anyone having success?]

So long as your tactic includes pressing, it should be okay. So long as you tweak roles accordingly. Formation is secondary to pressing instructions. 

[Step Up More / Drop Off More - do they work?]

I call the "Drop off more" the lose button. The ME favors high pressures. Has been like this years. Will always be like this, unfortunately. Never make a tactic that yields territory or pressure. It is not like real life where compactness allows for solidity. You'll just have any team - regardless of skill level - pass through you.