iamjerome

yes southgate has to move on. i've been a massive apologist and defender and still think overall he's done a remarkable job. but it's time for someone else to come in and build on the culture he's developed and challenge our players to the next level. have to say i find myself very frustrated to hear kane was actually injured .... it was one thing if we believed he was out of form, you can play someone into form. you can't play someone not fit into being magically recovered on the pitch. but even that i can be sympathetic because i understand oersevering with him because it takes a very brave manager to drop a player as good as kane who probably said he can play through the pain. but then where southgate deserves criticism is he did not actually build a plan around kane not being able to run to balance it out defensively and offensively like for example - argentina did with messi. instead we: 1. still at times attempted a completely ineffective press which breaks down when you have 1 player physically unable to 2. had kane drop deep a lot which meant he could not get back in the box in time for the times saka did attack the touchline and also that opposition defences would push up to close space for our attacking midfielders 3. compounded that by not having runners beyond kane to capitalise on the opposition defence moving up 4. also we cut off the entire left flank (until shaw started in the final) so made it even easier for opposition to contain us so basically it meant we did the exact opposite of what every single coach talks about when trying to break down defences - opening the pitch up...we instead closed it for ourselves?? hard to see a coherent plan of attack except hoping some of players would magically produce a goal or we would chuck on enough attackers to brute force one. the crazy thing is it got us as far as it did - and in fact even in the final we nearly equalised with those headers saved off the line at the end. if we had also miraculously won that i would have had to find a way to ask southgate to pick lottery numbers for me. but i think this is where i'm most disappointed with southgate. previously my view was whilst obviously he was never the most tactically gifted manager i at least understood his logic. solid base midfield, kane as 9, with wingers running besides. which means you keep players like grealish on the bench and bring on to change something if needed. it wasn't adventurous but it made sense. in a sense it took bravery to resist the idea of starting grealish for example too with all the hysteria for him. this tournament on the other hand... illogical, and for some reason he forgot the notion of keeping "stars" on the bench for the sake of balance and instead went extremely imbalanced to have big names on the pitch. oh well what's done is done! gareth deserves a good retirement or whatever he goes onto next away from the abuse that comes with being the england manager. i'd like to see a manager come in who's been inspired by spain's approach to the last couple of international tournaments more than the ultra pragmatic french team of deschamps era.

they won that final 4-0 i do agree their matches were largely boring but imo it was mostly because teams defended deep against them and they didn't have wingers like nico and yamal like they have today

gareth, for his own sake, should leave no matter what happens it's an impossible task to match the english fans expectations english fans were complaining about spain being boring when they were the greatest national team ever probably so even if he gets us playing well, no doubt there will be something new to criticise he's done a great job, now take yourself out of the firing line

well gareth didn't listen to me said a big **** you even and kept this insane sacrificing of the left flank and he's got us to the final. i was wrong to question him. what a man. putting toney in instead of watkins got us the winner. then all the subs for the penalties were perfect. and then bringing in watkins instead of toney vs netherlands. all perfect. of course we could have played better for all the games besides last game but i suppose tournament football just doesn't work like that. and of course he could have been more ruthless and dropped one of kane, bellingham or foden to bring in gordon or watkins but to be honest i don't think there's a manager in the world who doesn't give players of their quality all the time they need to play into form. foden has done that now. bellingham has had his moments. even kane has scored 3. i hope they go one more level up on sunday and combine together to deliver on gareth's faith and belief in them. but i'll tell you what - if they don't, i now have faith that gareth will not only take one or more of them off and also bring in the right person from our very decent bench.

i'm back to camp SOUTHGATE ALL THE WAY

i totally agree with you on every point here mate btw southgate has to course correct from this or this will be the one where i leave a.c southgate defenders and join pitchforks at gareth united

yes attacking talent depth is better but the starting quality talent is not anywhere near as balanced as back then rooney lamps gerrard were amongst the best in the world during mid to late 00s like kane foden bellingham are today beckham and joe cole certainly as good as the rest of the wide options we have. but then the starting quality everywhere else practically is much worse. much worse at centre half, not even close. miles and miles worse. much worse at left back, not even close. our back up then in wayne bridge is better than what we have today. worse also CMs although we didn't use scholes or hargreaves or carrick well at all but they were all world class or not far off. actually i will say we do have good starting quality and depth at right back now but gary neville and carragher as stand in were no mugs

this squad is not better than the era when we had the likes of rio terry sol for centre half gary neville and ashley cole as full backs beckham gerrard scholes lampard hargreaves carrick joe cole for midfield rooney owen up front

yes that is precisely my point. my expectations are grounded in the reality of how england has performed in major tournaments over 50 years. 2018 featured the first time we won on pens in decades. 2020 featured first time we beat germany in knockouts since 66 wasn't it? all the achievements that were made are being glossed over for expectations based on what, your own fantasy that england are competent and high performing footballing nation? to be clear i am speaking about the past - i actually went into this tournament with the highest expectations i had since maybe 2006 coming off a very promising 2004. just like i thought we should be kicking on from promising 2020/22 now) and of course we haven't been great or even good so far and i think most criticisms have been fair. although i do think the idea some have suggested that we should drop our best striker or move out best winger into left back are insane but that's a separate point. but 2018/2020 and even 2022? i'll defend those all day because i am confident in the simple logic that i have entire lifetimes of results to compare against in plenty of tournaments we also faced plenty of poor teams.

haha oh this is absolutely great you expected semi finals in 2018? as a minimum? after not making semi finals since 1996? after going out to iceland to 2016? after ending bottom of the group in 2014 without a single win? and THEN despite everyone thinking we made even that as a fluke and and despite not even managing to beat a single good team in 2018... you really expected us to miraculously improve so much that as a MINIMUM we should have made the final in 2020? something we hadn't done in a tournament since 1966? with a defence that featured harry maguire? no doubt you thought our squad was clearly better than france's or belgiums pre tournament too. ACHIEVED THE MINIMUM!!!! despite a lifetime probably of having lived through england having actually even better teams who achieved much less. THIS WAS ALL THE MINIMUM HE EXPECTED! and this lad is proudly saying nothing ANYONE can say can convince him the big brain football fan that southgate had only achieved THE MINIMUM what's particularly funny about this is i have lived in 3 different countries during southgate's era and the one consistent thing i would get bant about from people in these countries - or other international people i would hang out with in them - are english football fans are entitled and i always conceded. i might screenshot this post and save it for the next time i hear it so i can give them a wonderful example of that to laugh at next time. THE MINIMUM

except him using sterling instead of grealish was a perfect example of southgate actually making the right call. it was good that southgate had the balls to not fall for public pressure to bring a sexy popular 'world class' player on who actually rworked as well with kane as much as sterling did who was our best player in taking us to the final. he needs to show similar mettle and prioritise balance and working combinations (like kane + sterling was) over trying to get every 'world class' player in. just like italy didn't try to have both del piero and totti in at the same time as someone said earlier. just like spain had fabregas on the bench. or france had dembele on the bench and instead played matuidi in an 'attacking' role to allow griezmann and pogba's freer roles in 2018.

2018 was a miracle our team wasn't even good and people forget our expectations were non existent. we were coming off embarrassing ourselves in 2014 and 2016 ffs but people want to bring up oh we didn't beat a good team - so what? our last tournament we went out to iceland the last wc we ended bottom of the group without a single win it was a run to be enjoyed and it was great to be able to see players enjoy themselves for england again. so obviously he deserved at least another tournament after that. 2020 we got to a final with home advantage which is better than we did in 1996. we got to a final which is better than we've done since 1966 even and we lost on pens. it would have been absolutely ludicrous to sack him after that. 2022 we were actually playing pretty well. we held our own against the world champions and were unlucky to go out. i think maybe he could have stepped away after this but the FA begged him to stay and i don't think it's insane he got another tournament because it seemed like it was just a tournament too early for some of our players and we would be really coming into our strength in 2024 so can he win it with more players in their actual prime. 2024 however i have no caveats or justifications. we should be on fire and with how the draw has played out - we should be making the final. anything short is a terrible underperformance now. southgate needs to make some hard decisions and drop one of foden or bellingham - maybe even both to get gordon in on the left for sure and maybe palmer as well. keep mainoo in the middle too. actually have a balanced team instead of this insane system where we completely sabotage ourselves ignoring the entire left flank.

achieved so little? has had the best results of an england manager since 1966. he deserved this tournament. but if we don't improve dramatically - and perhaps miraculously - from here on out, this has to be his last tournament too.

i have always been a southgate apologist and think he deserves huge credit for 18/20/22 but this has been a shambles so far. euro 2020 started slow too to be fair but england still made for chances. we don't know what we're doing at all here. a right footed left back who doesn't offer width while playing foden who wants to come inside. a right back in centre midfield. inconsistent pressing. just so bad.

did not expect to come into this thread to see spurs so thoroughly rinsed fair though also i preferred richarlisons teamwork goal than the acrobatic one but both very good really

exactly

i dont think its arrogance, i think its just good old fashioned trolling i think all the people reacting are forgetting what football culture is like in argentina, everyone loves the passion because you get the extremities of that both sides. extreme passion. extreme toxicity.

good apart from lautaro who randomly decided to revert to the standard of the last decade of argentine strikers when they have messi creating for them eg bottlers must have had enough chances to win golden boot himself ffs

messi was actually really good in 2014 too, think he was involved in 5 out of like 7 goals argentina scored yeah he didn't score or assist later stages but not without others letting him down i remember him playing this unbelievable through ball volleying it from his own half to give di maria a 1on1 who pissed it away for one but he's for sure been even better this time, but part of that is because he's had better supporting cast although let's not kid ourselves - he's still got donkeys to play with de paul has been terrible at any part of the game where he's got to kick the ball lautaro has had enough chances set up by messi to make him a contender for the golden boot but hasn't scored a single one there have been entire segments of play where it sometimes seems like messi is the only technically good player it's not true of course - entire defence and keeper have been good, and enzo/alvarez as others have said maradona had a similarly good supporting too. they were tough ****s similarly and yeah valdano was really good. he was just coming off being la liga foreign player of the year 2nd top scorer in the league to hugo sanchez winning the title with real madrid. along with ruggeri and a couple of others who were at libertadores winners river plate etc.

think it's handed then but decided before

who decides this and when? i swear they used to announce it before the final in previous wc's which always seemed dumb to me