Meet The Inside Forward

[Cleon]

Taken from my blog https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/

When playing football manager and selecting player roles, a few individuals choose a role and think that is it and expect it to perform instantly. But in some cases it’s much more than the role you’ve selected and is about the team as a whole, especially for roles that are creative or for the ones you want to be the goal scoring roles. If you use a creative role, then who is the player creating for? Who provides him the ball and what the player do with the ball. Or if it’s a goal scoring role, then who is the one providing the supply and what kind of supply? Who offers the support? And so on.

It’s not a simple case of selecting a role and leaving it at that. There is a much bigger picture. So hopefully in this article I can show you the Inside Forward and how I utilise him. I’ll also be focusing on why he scores, what his play involves and explain why the roles around him, allow this kind of play. But first let’s look at the player and his development first, to understand everything about the player.

Rodrygo

For those who follow me on Twitter, you’ll know that Rodyrgo is my golden boy and is going to become the main man at the club. I’m hoping he will break all kinds of records, especially the goalscoring ones.

At the end of the first season he had seen quite the change, not only in terms of attributes but also with his personality.

Personality  – Start of the season balanced. End of the season it’s now ambitious. This means his tutoring session went to plan and not only have we seen a rise of his determination attribute from 10 to 14, we also know that his hidden attribute, ambition has also seen a raise.

Role training – For the entire season I kept him on the role training of the inside forward schedule.

Individual attribute focus – I only had him on stamina training for 3 month and then I removed it. I didn’t add another because he was still complaining about a heavy workload due to a poor personality and he was playing a lot of games. I didn’t want to increase the injury risks.

End of Season Two

During the second season he improved an awful lot, not only in terms of attributes but his overall game play too. He grabbed a lot of goals and assists compared to the year before. This no doubt had impacted his develop in a good way.I haven’t had him tutored again since the first time as I have no suitable tutors for him.

Role training – Short term he is my inside forward and thriving at the role currently. However due to how he is developing (attribute wise) and my long-term plans for him (I see him as the main striker eventually), I start to training him differently now. I feel the inside forward role no longer really suits him as the attributes that category trains are already getting high now. I could make them even higher but I want to focus on other aspects of his game now to make him even better.

That’s why I now put him on the complete forward schedule as I look to bring his other attributes up to scratch. This won’t be a long-term training though, it’ll be done for 18 months at the maximum, as I don’t want him to become a well-rounded player, I still want him to specialise and favour his high attributes. But I don’t want the other attributes to fall too far behind.

There’s nothing wrong with having rounded players, it’s just I prefer to have players who can do a specific job. The job I want Rodrygo to do is actually quite complex and I need him to develop more before I start discussing that side of things. But this will happen in a later article.

End of Season Three

By far his best season to date and all from the inside forward spot too. His attribute development is going as I wish and he’s become a world-class player in three seasons time. I still believe he has room to develop even further though. During this third season I gave him a heavy individual attribute for first touch, as I felt it was lower than it should have been in comparison to his other attributes.

So in three seasons we’ve seen these attributes rise;

Technical Attributes       

• Corners +4  
• Crossing +4
• Dribbling +2
• Finishing +4
• First Touch +5
• Free Kicks +4
• Heading +2
• Long Shots +3
• Long Throws +1
• Marking +2
• Passing +4
• Penalty Taking +4
• Tackling +1
• Technique +3

So we’ve seen a 43 point increase across all his technical attributes with first touch, being the one that saw the biggest improvement. Which makes sense as this is the only one I focused on apart from stamina in season one.

Mental Attributes

• Anticipation +3
• Bravery -1
• Composure +4
• Concentration +3
• Decisions +3
• Determination +7
• Flair +1
• Leadership +2
• Off the Ball +3
• Positioning +2
• Teamwork +2
• Vision +3
• Work Rate +2

Here we can clearly see the direct result of tutoring which originally made the attribute be 14 in value. However the increase to 15 in value is down to the squad personality which is now determined, it grew one more point due to this. We can also see that bravery took a one point drop, this was due to a recent injury. On Football Manager 2018 we see this more often, we can sometimes see the bravery take an immediate loss for the attribute when someone is injured. Once he’s fit and playing regular again, it should begin to rise to what it was before.

Physical Attributes

• Acceleration +4
• Agility +5
• Balance +5
• Natural Fitness +1
• Pace +4
• Stamina +5
• Strength +6

We’ve seen much bigger attribute chances here compared to the mental and technical attributes. The reason being there are less in the physical attributes than the others. When I first posted about this player, some people acted like he was the finished product and didn’t take him being 15 years-old at the time into consideration. They were quick to point out his flaws and focus on what he cannot do. The truth is, players at a young age can be shaped how you want and just because an attribute might be low at the time, doesn’t mean it will be when he’s fully developed.

We can see above how much he has changes in a 3 year time period. When you view a youth player try to think of the bigger picture and see that his attributes could be much higher in the next five or so years.

Rodrygo has had a great three years both in terms of attribute development and performances. I will be going into some depth about the performances in a later article when I get some free time, to show how you can bring youths through without compromising your results.

The Inside Forward Role

To ensure you have a good goal scorer the first thing you need is someone or multiple people to provide the striker, or in this case the inside forward, with chances he can put away and provide him with support to pass to, create space or even to occupy an opposition player for him. Without any of these then you’ll struggle to have someone who can regularly score 25+ goals a season.

I’ve already mentioned a few aspects of what is needed to create a goal scorer but here are more;

• Supply
• Support
• Space
• Movement
• Roles
• Duties

The supply and support are vital parts of helping someone become a goalscorer. This is what can create the movement both for the player to use and around him so it makes the opposition make a decision. This is how gaps appear for you to exploit and use to your advantage. However another big part of this is the role and duty of the player and those around him, as this will determine not only what the player does, but how the people around him behave too.

To further explain all of these points and how they link together, I should probably show you some examples of how it all works in a game environment. If you want to know about the system I am using then you can find it discussed here;

https://teaandbusquets.com/4-2-3-1-introduction

Even though I’m using the 4-2-3-1 deep, all the principles I speak about in this topic should be applicable regardless of what shape you use. All the principles are the same regardless of formation.

Passes Received

It’s important to see what kind of areas the player receives the ball, as this will show how involved he is in the build up play and what kind of areas he has taken up as he is about to receive the ball.

Here we can see the goalkeeper is playing the ball out to my defender Guilherme. But if we look further forward we can see Rodrygo who is moving towards the flank to give himself some space. Due to him being unmarked, Guilherme is going to hit him early with the ball. Once he gets the ball, he knocks it down to the Segundo Volante who is offering support. However nothing happens during this move but the point isn’t to show what Rodrygo does yet, it’s just to highlight and get an idea of who is passing to him and in what kind of areas.

This is almost from an identical area as the first example but this time he receives the ball from the Segundo Volante. We can also see how unmarked he is and all the acres of space he has to play in, due to the positions he is taking up. Due to me playing on a standard mentality, he isn’t too advanced and cut off from the rest of the side. He is very much a big part of all build up phases and this makes him harder to pick up and mark because he drops deep.

Rodrygo also offers us an outlet for when we are very deep in our own half, as can be seen above. We won the ball back and due to Rodrygo offering width, we can play the ball straight out to the wing to relieve some of the pressure. It also means we are immediately on the front foot because Rodrygo can drive forward with the ball and stay wide until the rest of the play catches up with him.

Now we’ve seen a little glimpse into where he receives the ball but not let’s have a look how the inside forward works for the system I’m using.

In the above image we can see both the teams shapes and the positioning of the defenders and midfielders. It’s almost identical to each other. You can see Rodrygo unmarked and in the space between the fullback and the winger. My keeper notices this and can use him as an outlet and do long balls to him. I don’t have the keeper set to short distribution as I’d miss out on this kind of stuff, it also means my keepers passing accuracy suffers a lot because of this but I don’t mind, if on the occasions it works, results in a chance or even a goal being scored.

Now I know what you are thinking here, and it’s that if I can do this then so can the opposition seeing how we are matched up and you’d be correct. However, in a proper defensive phase my inside forward would drop much deeper and be helping the fullback out. So in that sense, it’s less risky due to the mentality I am using. Nonetheless though, the keeper hit the ball straight to Rodrygo.

After Rodrygo held up the ball he played it back to the midfielders who then played it to the winger over on the right. Once this happened the game got stretched because we switched play. Looking at the above though, it seems we lack options upfront but actually I don’t. What happens next is a vital component of why the inside forward role works excellent for me.

Due to the striker attacking the box because the winger is running towards the byline, this means the oppositions defenders are in panic mode and they’re more focused on the early running, my striker. Which in turns mean Rodrygo has been left unmarked. Not only this, but due to the strikers early run he has created lots of space for the inside forward to use. No-one is near him and no-one is marking him.

The two main reasons why this space was created is because of;

• The striker who is a deep-lying forward on an attack duty.
• Using a winger who looks to get to the byline with the ball.

The striker is the one who creates the space and this is the reason I gave him an attack duty and not a support one. As I want him to still be a spearhead when attacking and not dropping as deep in moments like this. Other roles would work too in this scenario. The forward doesn’t need to do anything other than run in this set up, as this is what creates space. Just a simple run into the box without a ball.

The second reason it works so well is the winger and his attacking ability and his aim of going as deep into the oppositions half as possible and picking out a cross. You should be able to see in this example how both the striker and winger role allows the inside forward space, time and creates the movement for him by taking the whole defensive unit away from him. It’s also one of the reasons I like variety in my attacks and don’t like using the same role on both sides. If I used two inside forwards then the responsibility for this kind of play would fall solely on the striker, which is much harder to do. The payoff is also poorer in my opinion as it makes you more one dimension and your play is easier to predict. You basically make things easier for the AI if you only attack in one way.

In the above example, on this occasion Lincoln didn’t provide an accurate ball to Rodrygo or the striker. It was a poor ball but then again I am using a pure striker as a winger for this game due to injuries and suspensions. Things aren’t going to work all the time, that’s not realistic and if it did work all the time, that would be a bug. However it happens frequent and that is how you should measure success on Football Manager and if something is working tactically, by the frequency of how often it happens.

The move wasn’t lost though and the ball was cleared from the initial cross but then found it’s way to my Segundo Volante seconds later. I use a creative Segundo Volante who has the players preferred move of ‘tries killer balls often’. I love this PPM as it means he does stuff like the above all the time, he is constantly hitting the space the inside forward is in and either plays the ball in between the space of the fullback and wide player. Or he attempts to put the ball into the area between the fullback and the defender. On this occasion, he chooses the wider options, so now Rodrygo can become the winger and provider. He receives the ball and drives forward for a second then just hits the ball across the goal for the striker to turn home.

While the inside forward is normally the highest scorer in the side, he’s also one of the most creative and gets a ton of assists. His play isn’t all about scoring goals and he can often be found becoming provider like in the above example. It’s not forced creativity though and is all natural, meaning it’s an added extra rather than funneling play through him, like a playmaker role would. I speak about it all the time but having a variety way of creating and scoring goals makes the game much easier. Too many people play one-dimensional these days and that’s why they come up with the ‘The AI has worked me out’ stuff that people come out with. The AI doesn’t ever do that, but if you only create and score in a specific way then when this doesn’t go to plan you have no plan b.

Which means you struggle and why you have to change stuff so much. I’m not saying you can’t be successful that way but it brings an awful lots of negativity with it, playing that way and makes the game harder than it needs be. It’s also one of the reasons you should think of a tactic as a whole, rather than focusing on specific individuals or roles. Because in isolation it’s meaningless if it doesn’t actually fit how you play.

This time we see the inside forward scoring a goal. The rightback combines with the right winger who then passes the ball to the Segundo Volante, who then in turn passes to the attacking midfielder, who then plays in the inside forward. So again we are seeing the team combine and use the pitch in different ways to offer support and create. There is actually another component at play here too though and that is PPM’s. I have two players who play this role;

Now depending on which of these players I play in the attacking midfielder spot, determines how different we attack. If I use Alexandre Tam, then quite often I see him doing stuff like the above, where he plays the inside forward in. This is because of his PPM’s, he is tailored to be a pure passing outlet and these make him attempt different types of balls. Yet when I play Lucas, we don’t see those type of ball at all. I don’t mind that as we attack slightly different then and the onus is back on Rodrygo to make the intelligent moves. To give you a better indication of just how badly this impacts Rodrygo’s stats here are some stats;

Now if we ignore the goals scored in the first season, as he was only 16 years old and was still really underdeveloped. However if we look at the last two seasons, we can see he scores a similar amount of goals but the number of assists he gets is very different.

Can you guess which season the above AM’s were paired with Rodrygo the most based on assists? The 2019 season is with Alexandre Tam and the 2020 season with Lucas. One of the reasons why the number of assist differ drastically is down to the fact that Lucas isn’t as selfless as Tam and doesn’t try killer balls frequently. So without the killer balls often, it takes away from Rodrygo’s all round game. One of the reasons why is because of the gif example I posted above. When he receives those type of balls he can normally square it for the striker, winger or an on running midfielder to put the ball in the net.

It doesn’t mean Lucas isn’t as good as Tam, it just means they play the role different and this impacts the overall play. The goal tally is roughly the same though, the 2020 goal scored seems a bit better but he had two games were he scored 5 goals so it’s padded the stats out slightly. I think this kind of stuff might be better explained in another article though as this one is already getting quite long and I’ve not covered everything that I want just yet. Just after Christmas, I’ll look at finishing off part two with a lot more examples and explanations.

[edhdurham]

I am going to start playing IFs on each wing instead of Wngs as there seems to be some great IFs in the database this year...  but one question, I wanted to look at IFs with WBs behind them to provide width, but does that leave me to open to counters? 

Similar to your post I play with a F9 with the purpose of not just dropping deep but also running to the wings...  plan being to have WBs and the F9 providing width with IF running into the centre to provide a goal threat, hopefully making the front three difficult to mark, plus a goal threat from both IFs and F9 from deep.

What do you think @Cleon a bit over the top?

[Cleon]

18 minutes ago, edhdurham said:

I am going to start playing IFs on each wing instead of Wngs as there seems to be some great IFs in the database this year...  but one question, I wanted to look at IFs with WBs behind them to provide width, but does that leave me to open to counters? 

Similar to your post I play with a F9 with the purpose of not just dropping deep but also running to the wings...  plan being to have WBs and the F9 providing width with IF running into the centre to provide a goal threat, hopefully making the front three difficult to mark, plus a goal threat from both IFs and F9 from deep.

What do you think @Cleon a bit over the top?

How are the front 3 difficult to mark if they're all doing the same thing? In fact, the two IF's will be doing the same runs etc, how are they hard to mark without someone occupying the markers they have and who is creating space for them? 

Why do you need a striker running the channels when you have two players coming in from the channels already? I don't see the logic in what you are saying. You're asking two players to come inside from the channels and asking your central spearhead to run the channels. What's the purpose? When the F9 goes into the channels, what will the oppositions central defenders be doing rather than staying solid and compact, making it hard for your players to get past them? Who is slitting them up and giving them something to do?

[felipencntst]

Cleon, great as always.

I had an Alex Tam in Ryan Christie on FM 17, gonna try to get him on 18.

But what I really wanted to say: it hurts me to see you make Santos so great. I was watching the gif and drooling then I realized it was against Corinthians 

Although I love your texts, I really hate Santos. That's life, I guess haha

Cheers!

 

[Cleon]

Just now, felipencntst said:

Cleon, great as always.

I had an Alex Tam in Ryan Christie on FM 17, gonna try to get him on 18.

But what I really wanted to say: it hurts me to see you make Santos so great. I was watching the gif and drooling then I realized it was against Corinthians 

Although I love your texts, I really hate Santos. That's life, I guess haha

Cheers!

 

 haha sorry. I used them for the example as a lot think the Brazilian league is really weak and that I play pig farmers for 30+ games a season. So wanted to use a big side that most people should recognise 

[Britrock]

I retrained one of my young ST to play as an ML in my 4141 with the idea he'd play as a deeper inside forward. He plays as a wide midfield on attack, with stay wide and cut inside PIs, the thought being he'd stretch the defence and then exploit the gaps between the CB and RB. And based off last season it seems to be working - IIRC he was second in scoring, assists and rating and won player of the month in February. He regularly pops up at the back post or for those through balls between the CB and RB, it's a delight to watch,

[Jean0987654321]

Nice one. Another good article.

 

Do Raumdueter next

[summatsupeer]

4 hours ago, Cleon said:

How are the front 3 difficult to mark if they're all doing the same thing? In fact, the two IF's will be doing the same runs etc, how are they hard to mark without someone occupying the markers they have and who is creating space for them? 

Why do you need a striker running the channels when you have two players coming in from the channels already? I don't see the logic in what you are saying. You're asking two players to come inside from the channels and asking your central spearhead to run the channels. What's the purpose? When the F9 goes into the channels, what will the oppositions central defenders be doing rather than staying solid and compact, making it hard for your players to get past them? Who is slitting them up and giving them something to do?

This makes sense but to play devils advocate, could you clarify why its different from your example as DLF-A is also instructed to Move Into Channels?

[Ellandroadhero]

I had a great save with Napoli last year where I used an F9, a Raum and an IF. I expected the Raul to be the main goalscorer but Insigne was sensational as the IF and won every individual award going as we won the scudetto. 

[Cleon]

9 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

This makes sense but to play devils advocate, could you clarify why its different from your example as DLF-A is also instructed to Move Into Channels?

I have an AMC who occupies the central defenders and can push up into the space when the DLF drifts slightly wider. We don't use the same shape, so it has different consequences. If your only spearhead drifts wide into the channels, then realistically he isn't going to take the central defenders with him. So there needs to be someone else who can create the space the IF's need or to occupy the markers and pull them away, so the IF's can do their job. Like the example I posted in the OP when the striker drives forward and takes the whole defence with him.

Plus I only have 1 player cutting inside from the wings, so the DLF won't always be using the same space as the wide players, like he would in a 2 IF set-up.

It's also worth noting that the F9 plays deeper than all the striker roles bar the defensive forward. So it's harder for the F9 to occupy the defenders, which is why it's important someone else does. It's why people need variety and balance and one of the reasons I dislike tactics that attacks the same way off both flanks. You become one dimensional.

If you read what he put, he actually wants the striker to provide the width, which is just bizarre when he uses two IF's and wants them to cut inside and play narrow.

[jukilo]

Thank you so much for this!! This comes just in the right time as I want to turn my IF in the new Ronaldo!

Need to have a proper study on this but for sure it'll be very helpful!

[LordKaivalya]

What's the difference between an Inside Forward on attack duty and an Inside Forward on support duty? From my use of an inside forward on support he does seem more involved in the build up but he's nowhere near as productive as the complete forward on support and the winger on attack on the other side. I tried Inside forward on attack and immediately had better results. 

Also how many attack duties is it advisable to have in a front 3 of a 4-3-3. You advise to use an attacking spearhead through the centre to create space for the inside forward. Would this not work with the forward being on support duty with a more aggressive inside forward? (ala Firmino with Salah for the current Liverpool)

And how is an inside forward on attack (pretty much isolated from build up duty but more of a goal threat, I guess?) different from a Raumdeuter? Is it merely that the inside forward will look to run more with the ball?

[Gegenklaus]

35 minutes ago, LordKaivalya said:

And how is an inside forward on attack (pretty much isolated from build up duty but more of a goal threat, I guess?) different from a Raumdeuter? Is it merely that the inside forward will look to run more with the ball?

The raumdeuter by default roams, sits narrower, doesnt dribble as much as an inside forward. This means he will run around on the flank/half space looking for space to attack. I think the inside forward on attack will run more directly at defense ( dribble more PI) and go deep inside oppositions half. 

[mkkadi]

20 hours ago, Cleon said:

How are the front 3 difficult to mark if they're all doing the same thing? In fact, the two IF's will be doing the same runs etc, how are they hard to mark without someone occupying the markers they have and who is creating space for them? 

Why do you need a striker running the channels when you have two players coming in from the channels already? I don't see the logic in what you are saying. You're asking two players to come inside from the channels and asking your central spearhead to run the channels. What's the purpose? When the F9 goes into the channels, what will the oppositions central defenders be doing rather than staying solid and compact, making it hard for your players to get past them? Who is slitting them up and giving them something to do?

You used same front three when you created the possession tactic. It was different of course but you managed to be champion with Stoke and F9 supplied the IFs really good if Im not mistaken. Anything changed? 

[Cleon]

Quote

What's the difference between an Inside Forward on attack duty and an Inside Forward on support duty?

The support one starts deeper.

Quote

From my use of an inside forward on support he does seem more involved in the build up but he's nowhere near as productive as the complete forward on support and the winger on attack on the other side. I tried Inside forward on attack and immediately had better results. 

They're both as much as a goal threat as each other, it depends on how you use them. By that, I mean like the examples I showed in the opening post.

Quote

Also how many attack duties is it advisable to have in a front 3 of a 4-3-3.

You're thinking about it all wrong, you're hung up on attacking duties rather than thinking about what the role offers and how it links with the others players you used. There is no magical number of attack/support duties, it all depends on how you play. The more attack duties you use, the less space they'll have, the less likely to be involved in the build up and will need players deeper, to link with them because of the high positions they take up compared to support duties. You should be thinking along these lines rather than looking at 'how many'. 

Quote

 You advise to use an attacking spearhead through the centre to create space for the inside forward. Would this not work with the forward being on support duty with a more aggressive inside forward? (ala Firmino with Salah for the current Liverpool)

It can work yes but again it depends. In the examples I highlighted above, if my striker was on support then he wouldn't be taking the defenders away early enough or would be too deep initially so there'd be no real space created for the IF to run into. The space is actually created via the winger and the striker working in conjunction with each other.

What works for you depends on the factors of how everyone links together like I showed, how it works for me.

Quote

And how is an inside forward on attack (pretty much isolated from build up duty but more of a goal threat, I guess?) different from a Raumdeuter? Is it merely that the inside forward will look to run more with the ball?

Read the descriptions in the game and that should give you a basic general idea of how the roles differ. Then look at the instructions both roles comes with and you should know how they really differ now.

[Cleon]

15 minutes ago, mkkadi said:

You used same front three when you created the possession tactic. It was different of course but you managed to be champion with Stoke and F9 supplied the IFs really good if Im not mistaken. Anything changed? 

I think you'll find you are wrong. First, I was Swansea and secondly I didn't use the same roles, this is the screenshot taken from the thread;

And I've explained above why it doesn't work. I didn't use a F9 to create width and offer width, which is what the person I was replying to was asking for. Why would someone want to use the central player to create width in the channels when they already have two players creating width there already initially who then come central. What is the purpose of the striker who starts centrally offering width when play will already be central because of the two IF's? It's an approach that doesn't make much sense at all.

[jc577]

@Cleon Great read as per usual  quick question; how do the principles of space creation highlighted above differ when using a 433? atm i’m using a combination of IF-a, CF-s, IF-s (because i don’t have anyone that can cross the ball), so i guess it works in the opposite way to yours.. but i’m wondering if an attack duty striker would work better? 

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, jc577 said:

@Cleon Great read as per usual  quick question; how do the principles of space creation highlighted above differ when using a 433? atm i’m using a combination of IF-a, CF-s, IF-s (because i don’t have anyone that can cross the ball), so i guess it works in the opposite way to yours.. but i’m wondering if an attack duty striker would work better? 

It depends, what do you see when the striker drops deep? Are the defenders following him, is he creating space? How do the midfield contribute to attacks, are they also attacking central? If so, then the centre area can become a bit crowded unless you stagger it like you have with the front 3. But the midfield would be key here to how they supply the ball and do they take away from any space the striker creates? 

[summatsupeer]

6 hours ago, Cleon said:

I have an AMC who occupies the central defenders and can push up into the space when the DLF drifts slightly wider. We don't use the same shape, so it has different consequences. If your only spearhead drifts wide into the channels, then realistically he isn't going to take the central defenders with him. So there needs to be someone else who can create the space the IF's need or to occupy the markers and pull them away, so the IF's can do their job. Like the example I posted in the OP when the striker drives forward and takes the whole defence with him.

Plus I only have 1 player cutting inside from the wings, so the DLF won't always be using the same space as the wide players, like he would in a 2 IF set-up.

It's also worth noting that the F9 plays deeper than all the striker roles bar the defensive forward. So it's harder for the F9 to occupy the defenders, which is why it's important someone else does. It's why people need variety and balance and one of the reasons I dislike tactics that attacks the same way off both flanks. You become one dimensional.

If you read what he put, he actually wants the striker to provide the width, which is just bizarre when he uses two IF's and wants them to cut inside and play narrow.

Much better explanation than I was trying to write! Plus I know better than to put words in your mouth .  Can't just look at one or two positions, need to look at the wider picture.

 

[Cleon]

Just now, summatsupeer said:

Much better explanation than I was trying to write! Plus I know better than to put words in your mouth .  Can't just look at one or two positions, need to look at the wider picture.

 

I know I say it all the time and bang on about it but its true. You need to learn how everything works together rather than in isolation. If your striker is an attacking one and goes forward, what do the players around him do? If the winger goes forward how does the rest of the roles work, do they stay back or go and offer support and so on.

[jc577]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

It depends, what do you see when the striker drops deep? Are the defenders following him, is he creating space? How do the midfield contribute to attacks, are they also attacking central? If so, then the centre area can become a bit crowded unless you stagger it like you have with the front 3. But the midfield would be key here to how they supply the ball and do they take away from any space the striker creates? 

occasionally, but more often than not i’m playing against teams who have parked the bus, so it doesn’t happen as often as I’d like. well ive got a Mez-s behind the IF-a and a BBM on the other side. They do take turns attacking the central areas but even so, this means there are four players (CF-S, IF-S, both CM’s) all trying to use the same space, right? 

[Cleon]

22 minutes ago, jc577 said:

occasionally, but more often than not i’m playing against teams who have parked the bus, so it doesn’t happen as often as I’d like. well ive got a Mez-s behind the IF-a and a BBM on the other side. They do take turns attacking the central areas but even so, this means there are four players (CF-S, IF-S, both CM’s) all trying to use the same space, right? 

Indeed it does, which is why I like to set up with a variety of ways to attack rather than focusing on one specific area. The side you use the Mez on, have you though about having him as a different role than a IF? Something like a winger?

[jc577]

4 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Indeed it does, which is why I like to set up with a variety of ways to attack rather than focusing on one specific area. The side you use the Mez on, have you though about having him as a different role than a IF? Something like a winger?

I've thought about using a W-A there, but I don't really have anyone that can cross the ball. Although the way I envisaged this role playing out was more of an IF-a that starts a bit wider (not sure how accurate this is) and hits the byline more often, but still provides a goal threat.

[Jyuan83]

On 22/12/2017 at 00:59, Britrock said:

I retrained one of my young ST to play as an ML in my 4141 with the idea he'd play as a deeper inside forward. He plays as a wide midfield on attack, with stay wide and cut inside PIs, the thought being he'd stretch the defence and then exploit the gaps between the CB and RB. And based off last season it seems to be working - IIRC he was second in scoring, assists and rating and won player of the month in February. He regularly pops up at the back post or for those through balls between the CB and RB, it's a delight to watch,

I like how threads on player roles like this wonderful piece on the IF by Cleon brings out really creative solutions from FM players like Britrock for their tactics. Really opened up my mind to trying something new like this on my save. Too often we think about being central and closer to goal just to score more goals when in reality it is more about creating space for the player with the right supply to score the goals. Come to think of it, one reason why and this is just my personal opinion the raumdeuter does not score much in most people’s games is because they cram so many central-centric players(IF, BBM, AP) that even though the raumdeuter has move into channels it still renders it with not much space to operate. Perhaps in future games the raumdeuter could be added with the PI to stay wider.

[Cleon]

On 21/12/2017 at 16:59, Britrock said:

I retrained one of my young ST to play as an ML in my 4141 with the idea he'd play as a deeper inside forward. He plays as a wide midfield on attack, with stay wide and cut inside PIs, the thought being he'd stretch the defence and then exploit the gaps between the CB and RB. And based off last season it seems to be working - IIRC he was second in scoring, assists and rating and won player of the month in February. He regularly pops up at the back post or for those through balls between the CB and RB, it's a delight to watch,

Seems we play the same, at least in our approach to ideology. This is basically what I've highlighted above, albeit from the AML position but you achieve the same thing from the ML based on the same principles. But the way you describe it happening and what happens, is the exact same as I highlight above

[sgevolker]

Hi Cleon,

do you use the addional focus only when you want to develop someone or do you use it for every player?

I’m wodering about the good development of Rodrygo. I never get such a good result.

Regards

Volker

[Cleon]

23 minutes ago, sgevolker said:

Hi Cleon,

do you use the addional focus only when you want to develop someone or do you use it for every player?

I’m wodering about the good development of Rodrygo. I never get such a good result.

Regards

Volker

I use it if I feel the player can benefit from it.

I find it hard to believe you've never had a player at 15 years of age who is a high potential player and never seen development like I showed above over 3-4 seasons. Just about every player I have develops the same if they have the PA.

[sgevolker]

I play FM Touch in the IPAD and never had a15 year old youth player. Also it seems the Touch version is limited with youth players. So I had development, but not such a huge.

[Rasmus]

Which PPMs are essential to get the most out of your IF? I have set up a system very similar to Cleons, but my IF rarely gets behind the defence like shown in the OP gif.

[Cleon]

My IF has zero PPM's

[Rasmus]

4 minutes ago, Cleon said:

My IF has zero PPM's

Ha! Maybe thats the issue then. I have Martial who has Move Into Channels, Cuts Inside and Plays One-Twos. Maybe they aren’t suitable for an IF?

[Los_Culés]

1 hour ago, Rasmus said:

Ha! Maybe thats the issue then. I have Martial who has Move Into Channels, Cuts Inside and Plays One-Twos. Maybe they aren’t suitable for an IF?

These are Thierry Henry moves ;). Well, I would not say that TH position in Arsenal was an inside forward, rather something between wide trequartista/complete forward.

[Jean0987654321]

1 hour ago, Rasmus said:

Ha! Maybe thats the issue then. I have Martial who has Move Into Channels, Cuts Inside and Plays One-Twos. Maybe they aren’t suitable for an IF?

You shouldn't have a problem with Martial scoring even with those PPMs. Your whole system may need addressing

[jc577]

@Cleon Can a player provide both supply and support to the IF? For example I was considering using an AP-a in the mcl slot in the hope that he commits players to him via dribbling and provide through passes to the IF, without actively looking to break into the box and use the same space.

[Rasmus]

1 hour ago, Los_Culés said:

These are Thierry Henry moves ;). Well, I would not say that TH position in Arsenal was an inside forward, rather something between wide trequartista/complete forward.

Makes sense. Until I retrained him to play as an ML, he can no longer play as a striker apparently. He would be a nice supplement in case Lukaku and Rashford should be out at the same time.

[Rasmus]

1 hour ago, Jean0987654321 said:

You shouldn't have a problem with Martial scoring even with those PPMs. Your whole system may need addressing

That’s also what concerns me. It’s not that I have a problem scoring, Lukaku keeps banging them in. I just don’t feel like I’m getting the most out of Martial. He’s a decent provider, but aren’t getting into dangerous scoring positions as often as I would like him to be. I need to sort out my midfield, cause they aren’t producing much. My right winger gets a load of assists though. Martial chips in too once in a while.

So I have to find the best roles for James Rodriguez, Pogba and Martial and make them work together.

[Amarante]

@Cleon Is it possible that you can provide a brief explanation in FM term of a 4-3-3 system with a False 9 and two inside forwards. This to me seems to be the more common case and we see with Liverpool and Pep's City and Barca team even Napoli uses such a system to devastating effect. From my FM knowledge as i have not always been able to bring m RL tactical knowledge in the game, when you play a 4-3-3 with false 9 and two inside forwards, you are expecting your inside forwards to take advantage of the space left by your false 9 and create one-twos along with exchanges where most of your goals should be scored inside the 18 yard box. 

I can understand in FM it's all about using the space and creating space but how do you balance your attacking front 3 as, i've already pictured where your midfield should be looking to supply passes but also not frequently tho, make runs into the box from a deeper position. 

[Cleon]

Those teams don't use two inside forwards though. I won't be going out of my way writing about the 433 though, I only write about what I'm currently using. 

The principles in this thread are applicable to all formations though and regardless of the shape, you need everything I mentioned above for them to be consistent scorers.

[goqs06]

@Cleon @Rashidi 

to me the Inverted winger and inside forward roles kinda sound the same. Could you explain their similarities and differences?

[Cleon]

20 minutes ago, goqs06 said:

@Cleon @Rashidi 

to me the Inverted winger and inside forward roles kinda sound the same. Could you explain their similarities and differences?

You can see the differences yourself if you look at the settings both roles have. They are basically the same though.

[anorthernboy]

Hi Cleon.  Great article, especially the different options on each flank. I'm trying to get Liverpool's fab 4 on the pitch in a 433DM formation. I have Salah as a W/a on the right and Mane as a IF/s on the left. I use Firmino as a F9. I use a Mezzalla on the right of my midfield and a AP/s on the left. 

My problems are long shots. Is the midfield to aggressive in this set up? I ask because your points on the attacker has me thinking maybe the F9 is clogging things up rather than moving defenders about. I think I'm not far off what I want to achieve but the long shots are destroying my game.

My shouts:

Push much higher up

Close down much more 

Standard/flexible

[Jyuan83]

Why is salah, a left footer on the right playing as a winger? As a winger he will focus on getting to the byline to cross although he will also get in the box at times due to being inverted in his footedness. Mane as an IF support will score goals but his primary purpose is to play balls through the middle to play others in after cutting inside. The midfield pair of ap and mez looks good. The f9 drops very deep, so when there are no runners coming in, it will feel clogged. I feel that if you want to reduce the long shots you could try work ball into box, and change salah into a raumdeuter. Mane could be an IF support with get further forward if you like.

[mkkadi]

12 hours ago, anorthernboy said:

Hi Cleon.  Great article, especially the different options on each flank. I'm trying to get Liverpool's fab 4 on the pitch in a 433DM formation. I have Salah as a W/a on the right and Mane as a IF/s on the left. I use Firmino as a F9. I use a Mezzalla on the right of my midfield and a AP/s on the left. 

My problems are long shots. Is the midfield to aggressive in this set up? I ask because your points on the attacker has me thinking maybe the F9 is clogging things up rather than moving defenders about. I think I'm not far off what I want to achieve but the long shots are destroying my game.

My shouts:

Push much higher up

Close down much more 

Standard/flexible

Your winger will be high up on the pitch because he plays at AM strata with attack role. His aim is to get to the byline and cross the ball. But I think there is no one in the box because F9 drops deeper and your IF has support role which means he starts his run later and deeper than IFa. 

[sherifdinn_]

19 hours ago, anorthernboy said:

Hi Cleon.  Great article, especially the different options on each flank. I'm trying to get Liverpool's fab 4 on the pitch in a 433DM formation. I have Salah as a W/a on the right and Mane as a IF/s on the left. I use Firmino as a F9. I use a Mezzalla on the right of my midfield and a AP/s on the left. 

My problems are long shots. Is the midfield to aggressive in this set up? I ask because your points on the attacker has me thinking maybe the F9 is clogging things up rather than moving defenders about. I think I'm not far off what I want to achieve but the long shots are destroying my game.

My shouts:

Push much higher up

Close down much more 

Standard/flexible

From experience, the reason why long shots are taken often is because of the the lack of passing options to progress into dangerous areas in or around the box. You need to sort the roles out to make sure nobody is occupying anyone's space or there is space to give a pass to progress the ball

[anorthernboy]

I have had players in great positions and my players shoot regardless. Its the same with dribbling. I play nice footy until it gets out wide then they just set off dribbling with no real aim and get tackled. They literally run straight at the defender and get tackled. One ball over top and I've conceded a good chance. 

 

I've just played Arsenal with their overpowered 523 WB wide and they constantly outnumbered me out wide with CD, WB and W overload. Not to worry I think. I outnumber them in the middle. Aron Ramsey playing as a DLP in a midfield 2 of DLP/s and BWM/d tackles any midfielder who gets the ball and then bursts into the box to score. Twice. 

 

Danny Wellbeck playing W/a tracks back every time i nearly get my fullback in on goal. Then spearheads the counter. Im at a loss.

[Curtinho]

I've often been kind of at a loss for how to use an IF (A) properly. My initial instinct has always been (logically) to pair it with a F9/DLF to drag the defence out of position and give the IF space to attack. I've never had too much success with it personally (obviously this is a larger issue than just the two roles). Reading this though and trying to conceptualize what I'm trying to accomplish I feel like something like this could do what you're asking of:

 

F9 (S)

IF (A) ---------------------------------------------

---------------AP (S) ----- MEZ (A) ----- W (A)

 

The winger should stay out of the way of the middle, and with the AP holding his position realistically there shouldn't be too much congestion in that area. I guess I'm wondering here if the W (A) (on the midfield strata) would cause the same kind of problems as you highlighted above for the opposition defence in that sense or is the F9's movement going to make it easier for the defenders to pick up the run of the IF (A) because more often than not he's vacating the box and attacking from deep instead. Conceptually I like the idea of the cut-back to the top of the box where the F9/Mez should be drawing attention which could lead to the IF being unmarked and either a) available for a deeper cross from the W or b) available for a killer ball from either the F9 or the Mez after they received a cutback. Maybe I'm not thinking of it properly or it doesn't work that way in practice though.

[RCCook]

7 hours ago, Curtinho said:

I've often been kind of at a loss for how to use an IF (A) properly. My initial instinct has always been (logically) to pair it with a F9/DLF to drag the defence out of position and give the IF space to attack. I've never had too much success with it personally (obviously this is a larger issue than just the two roles). Reading this though and trying to conceptualize what I'm trying to accomplish I feel like something like this could do what you're asking of:

 

F9 (S)

IF (A) ---------------------------------------------

---------------AP (S) ----- MEZ (A) ----- W (A)

 

The winger should stay out of the way of the middle, and with the AP holding his position realistically there shouldn't be too much congestion in that area. I guess I'm wondering here if the W (A) (on the midfield strata) would cause the same kind of problems as you highlighted above for the opposition defence in that sense or is the F9's movement going to make it easier for the defenders to pick up the run of the IF (A) because more often than not he's vacating the box and attacking from deep instead. Conceptually I like the idea of the cut-back to the top of the box where the F9/Mez should be drawing attention which could lead to the IF being unmarked and either a) available for a deeper cross from the W or b) available for a killer ball from either the F9 or the Mez after they received a cutback. Maybe I'm not thinking of it properly or it doesn't work that way in practice though.

Having some similar issues with a slightly different set-up:

CF- S

IF-A on the left, W-S on the right

AP-S on the left, MEZ-S on the right

The IF-A seems to score a reasonable amount, but also takes a lot of long shots (as does the CF). The thinking behind this set-up was that the CF would create space for the IF, who will receive passes from the CF and AP. The winger also creates space (by stretching the defense) that the MEZ can run into. I've also tried using a MEZ-A and a BBM in that slot- none seem to perform any better or worse than the others, so I've kept the support duty thinking that it would offer a bit more defensive stability. I'm also playing as Real Betis, so it's possible I may just not have the players yet to pull off what I'm trying to do.

 

 

[Eddie Boop]

18 hours ago, anorthernboy said:

I have had players in great positions and my players shoot regardless. Its the same with dribbling. I play nice footy until it gets out wide then they just set off dribbling with no real aim and get tackled. They literally run straight at the defender and get tackled. One ball over top and I've conceded a good chance. 

 

I've just played Arsenal with their overpowered 523 WB wide and they constantly outnumbered me out wide with CD, WB and W overload. Not to worry I think. I outnumber them in the middle. Aron Ramsey playing as a DLP in a midfield 2 of DLP/s and BWM/d tackles any midfielder who gets the ball and then bursts into the box to score. Twice. 

 

Danny Wellbeck playing W/a tracks back every time i nearly get my fullback in on goal. Then spearheads the counter. Im at a loss.

How do you know what roles they were playing?

[jc577]

6 hours ago, RCCook said:

Having some similar issues with a slightly different set-up:

CF- S

IF-A on the left, W-S on the right

AP-S on the left, MEZ-S on the right

The IF-A seems to score a reasonable amount, but also takes a lot of long shots (as does the CF). The thinking behind this set-up was that the CF would create space for the IF, who will receive passes from the CF and AP. The winger also creates space (by stretching the defense) that the MEZ can run into. I've also tried using a MEZ-A and a BBM in that slot- none seem to perform any better or worse than the others, so I've kept the support duty thinking that it would offer a bit more defensive stability. I'm also playing as Real Betis, so it's possible I may just not have the players yet to pull off what I'm trying to do.

 

 

I have the exact same set-up with United and can’t stop those long shots. Considering using an attack duty striker (DLF-a or CF-a) to push the defence back a bit more.

[mkkadi]

The topic is related to inside forward but I just want to get your opinions. What happens if I use traquarista instead of inside forward? Does it work and can traquarista be a main goalscorer outlet from wings? @Cleon