No longer a 'legend'

[saddlerscott]

Lol Nick, I added that bit with aniticipation, hoping that someone would bring that up. I seem to remember reading somewhere, not sure where it was, that a guy got dressed up in his suit for big games, I couldn't believe it!; as you say, true dedication!

I'm sure you know my comments are tongue in cheek but I'm sure you also know what I meant in my OP or other posts with regards realism. I am not saying don't do it, it's just not what I want, good luck with FM10 though! I just hope I can stick with my decision to go to CM 10, but the fact I am still on FM07 suggests I should give it a try purely because I can't play your last two versions which is surely wasting my money lol....

I believe Jason Manford (the comedian) revealed he knew someone who did this on one of the many comedy quiz shows that are around. I think it was mock the week.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

If we could merge the 2 together to get the best features of each, we would have an immense game. I read further up that you have been playing the CM demo? There are some good features that they now have. The training, inparticular, is in a world of its own. To be able to watch your strikers practising shooting against a keeper of your choice, and all in 3d, is fantastic, and a huge step forward. The ME does let the game down, and perhaps thats FM's strongest feature. The gameplay of FM doesn't appear to add THAT many ground breaking changes each year. Just the odd addition. CM this year is completely different, and no doubt, IS moving in the right direction. I base this on a lot of what you said in your first post. They have listenened to what fans have been wanting for years.

Of course CM is flawed in a lot of areas, but, it is a more exciting project IMHO, and one I wil personally, be following intently. Having said that, I will still be buying FM2010, because it is dependable. Like an old pair of slippers.

Good points, I may 'pay what I want' for CM and get old reliable FM.

I totally agree with you when you say CM is going in the right direction and listening to what fans want. It would appear we are stuck between a rock and a hard place, with CM offering nice features but no real substance and FM offering the same old substance but with no 'nice touches' as you have put it, all a bit too serious.

As you have said if they were together maybe it would be awesome because it would appear SI can sort a lot of technical issues better than BGS at the minute, but BGS seem to know what the fans want or at least try to implement a lot of ideas from fans albeit not without flaws.

I still haven't got one of Miles sayings out of my head from a long time ago, he said the customer isn't always right. Quite arrogant IMO, the people over at BGS seemed very friendly and willing to answer any questions and talk about any topics. I don't get that feeling as much with SI and the sense of over confidence/arrogance does come through at times I feel.

It's a shame SI don't add a few things a lot of people have asked for such as the user being more involved on a personal level, I feel BGS are trying to do this which is great but feel SI won't consider it just yet. As you said will buy both and with all patches out see which is better, I have a feeling it will be FM by a long way still though.

[Haiku]

Hmm I've played CM10 demo and I just can say.. it sux.. Totaly sux. Even Prevews versions of CM are far better than this. Completely unlogical interface. It's difficult to find what you are looking for. Very Good 3d match engine, but it takes me around 20 mins to complete the match... In some fact this is boring.. Very unrealistic tactical part ..there are some new interesting things like set piece creator.. but i found it easy to exploid.. You have to understand nomather what SI has released ,even the world worst product, it would be better then CM10.. just they have taken the wrong path..

[blala]

FM is the realistic game now this is true

[blala]

I know that's FM10 will be bomb in football simulation game

[DivineOne]

To be able to watch your strikers practising shooting against a keeper of your choice, and all in 3d, is fantastic, and a huge step forward.

I don't get that. You can watch it once or twice but more then that and it's just plain boring.

I still haven't got one of Miles sayings out of my head from a long time ago, he said the customer isn't always right. Quite arrogant IMO,

It may be a bit arrogant but it's the truth nonetheless.

the people over at BGS seemed very friendly and willing to answer any questions and talk about any topics. I don't get that feeling as much with SI and the sense of over confidence/arrogance does come through at times I feel.

I don't know about the BGS forums but if you're saying SI don't listen and discuss with the fans you couldn't be more wrong

[sambos]

Good luck trying out other management games Leeds, Leeds, Leeds, but from personal experience of trying others (i.e Fifa, CM) they dont comes close to the edge of your seat matchday experiences in FM09 (9.3.0 update) in particular. As Benitez would say "we are talking about FACTS".

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

I don't know about the BGS forums but if you're saying SI don't listen and discuss with the fans you couldn't be more wrong

I never said that so you got that wrong I am afraid

[DivineOne]

the people over at BGS seemed very friendly and willing to answer any questions and talk about any topics. I don't get that feeling as much with SI and the sense of over confidence/arrogance does come through at times I feel.

What about here?

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

What about here?

You said, 'if you're saying SI don't listen and don't discuss'.

I didn't say they 'don't', I said I don't get the feeling they do it as much as BGS or are as interested in what the fans think. I was also referring to their arrogance too in that bit...

So yes, you was wrong, sorry I had to explain that to you

[Ackter]

The "correct to July 1st" excuse doesn't work when the data is wrong for July 1st as well.

[Big-Murph]

Leeds! I have to admit... you've got such a fair point imo. Being hooked on FM for the last couple of years, or really since it first came out in 07, you are the only person that's really made me think... FM isn't perfect after all! lol

I agree, and predict that in the next couple years CM will be edging FM out of the shelves in the way both are going. My favourite FM was 07 Handheld. It was ridicously easy for beginners... I didn't feel tactics where needed to dominate in the game, though the fun and speed of the game was amazing! FM 08 was the first I bought on computer and after a while of getting used to advanced management then it became easy again, still great fun and a challenge though. FM 09 though... too much. Unless I really want to go on to be a Manager, then I don't really take the game too seriously. Now after pre ordering FM 10... I'm beginning to wonder whether I might also go down to round to the classic CM.

Basically, the scenario is that CM and FM are turning into Pro Evo and FIFA. FIFA being the glittery football game that has all the licences blah blah, and Pro Evo being the less overall package but imo having the better graphics to players and better gameplay. FIFA is the one on top right now but honestly can't see it doing well for much longer because it's too realistic, and won't change to much in the next couple of years. Whereas Pro Evo, is a lot of fun and has more realistic looking players instead of the hilarious Rooney in FIFA09 that looks like a demon... and will be the one that will do better imo. Same with CM and FM, the management obsessed will stay with FM but the newcombers will go for CM and probably enjoy it more. Again, imo... don't take it to heart.

[DivineOne]

Comparing cm and fm with fifa and pes is just wrong. First of all fifa and pes are both great games where cm is just plain bad.

Ow, and the reason I bought fifa09 instead of pes this year is because it became realistic, so that's a good thing.

[fmobande]

you mean the the dedicated footballer fans would go for FM and the kids that want a fun easy happy game will go to CM

[DivineOne]

and the kids that want a fun easy happy game will go to CM

To be honest I think they'll rather go for fifa manager.

[fmobande]

guys im going to say the truth now im going to say a long paragraph

[fmobande]

Playing video games is supposed to be fun. One aspect of gameplay that makes gaming fun is immersion in a world that is completely different from our everyday world and our everyday lives. Playing games is a form of escapism.

If ultra realism is achieved and the virtual world looks just like the real world, what's the fun in that? And if you're not setting out to create a world that mimics our own, then as a designer you don't necessarily need the most powerful engine or the most powerful GPU ever created to craft your vision.

Some of the most played or highest selling games of all time have succeeded not because they represented realism, but because they represented fantasy and a way for players to forget about their own day-to-day routines for a few hours at a time. World of Warcraft, Mario, Zelda, The Sims, etc. all immerse the player in a fantasy.

Games that do attempt to present a more realistic-looking world are often filled with dull gray/brown color palettes, which is sadly the case in many of today's games. We all spent thousands on HDTVs, which have the ability to display tons of vibrant, eye-popping colors, and yet everything looks like a poop-stained concrete wall.

That's why we cheer when we get games like Katamari Damacy, Okami, or Flower – these titles make great use of colors and are innovative in their own right. Video games are an art form; designers should open their minds rather than looking out their windows at city buildings for inspiration. That what I think about realism and realistic. But I think what I have pointed out is of the topic of football manager realism problem and cm fun-ism but its more in topic of realism in video gaming world and funism .

[rinso]

FM is (and has been for years) the market leader in this category, and rightly so. I dont think im alone in still owning older ersions of the game, and also trying to play those older versions. It never lasts slong though, theres always something bout th new game i miss, so i have to go back to it and play it. CM has never had that, in fact, its never been of a comparable standard to FM, and imho, its years away from being that. You want to go down the CM route, then fairy snuff, thats your choice, but you will be back, i'm sure of that.

[DivineOne]

That's why we cheer when we get games like Katamari Damacy, Okami, or Flower – these titles make great use of colors and are innovative in their own right.

I never even heard of these :s.

BTW why do you assume realism can't be fun?

[fmobande]

I never even heard of these :s.

BTW why do you assume realism can't be fun?

it is fun i want realism in fm and I don't want it to change because one guy wants it to

im just saying why people would like fun

[ArranoBeltza]

Also, the need to tweak is a myth.

Very true. Right now I'm playing the Old Firm community challenge as Celtic. I stick with the same formation and hardly ever tweak my sliders. So while I'm not doing too well right now and probably won't get a lot of points in the challenge, my team still plays roughly how I want them to. The only thing I need is for some of my young players to get older and to buy some new players in certain positions and maybe add a bit of depth to my squad. I should have a good long-term save.

But I will say this: I don't understand the OP's argument about the game getting more realistic and less fun. I do agree that FM 09 suffered from this- tweaking tactics often requires pausing the game, resetting some sliders, and going back to it. In this respect it's much more like American Football with constant timeouts than real football, where a manager can just give a few instructions from the sideline and his team is good to go. Now, the confusion on my part is why there's a problem with FM10. In that game, it will be possible to make "shouts" from the sideline, and the tactics have fewer sliders involved and more instruction, which, in my view, makes the game less tedious and therefore more fun, while also being more realistic.

And besides, I am a convert from FIFA Manager. One thing I can say is that it has a lot more on FM in terms of "fun factor", but it's so easy that after a while I totally lost interest.

[fmobande]

the only games i like realism is football manager because do you know why Because i like football i am a pure football fan and i don't want it to change from the real world

but for other games i do not like realism

Why do people always strive to replicate reality within something as virtual as video games? Is it solely for the sake of immersion? That being asked, I feel that games do not need to mimic reality in order to be "immersive". Let's take the Metal Gear series for example. The kind of things that happen within the series is ridiculous. There are people contacting the dead, surviving falls from gigantic bipedal robots, controlling wasps, taking down tanks singlehandedly, using psychic powers, calculating ricochet physics precisely and instantaneously,

etc. However, this series is simply compelling. You "believe" it can happen, even though common sense tells you "No way!". If this is possible, why is it that people complain about some games not being "real" enough? The entire game is artificial, yet people strive to make it as close to reality as they possibly can.

This brings me to the graphics. Why do so many people want their games to look "realistic"? What does that offer us? If we ever do reach a point where our games become photorealistic, won't it just look boring? Where's the artistry in simply reproducing what our eyes already see? The medium is capable of so much more than this. Take the games from Clover Studio for example. "Viewtiful Joe" looks quite good to this day, yet it's far from being realistic. The upcoming "Okami" is even further removed from reality,

but I can't help but be intoxicated by the visuals. And what discussion about video games as an art form is complete with the mention of "Ico" and "Shadow of the Colossus"? Ico's textures weren't all that detailed, and neither were the character models, yet it's breathtaking. I felt as though I was "in" the game even though it was clear that what I was looking at was not reality.

[Dekker2]

Playing video games is supposed to be fun. One aspect of gameplay that makes gaming fun is immersion in a world that is completely different from our everyday world and our everyday lives. Playing games is a form of escapism.

If ultra realism is achieved and the virtual world looks just like the real world, what's the fun in that? .

In the real world none of us are football managers. It's logical realism stemming from an absurd premise. The best kind of escapism is like a hyper-realistic dream - you feel like it's really happening, you get taken in.

I totally agree with you when you say CM is going in the right direction and listening to what fans want...

but BGS seem to know what the fans want or at least try to implement a lot of ideas from fans albeit not without flaws.

You mean what YOU want. As you can clearly see from the divided nature of this thread, it's impossible to say what "the fans" want, because we all want different things, and we all think our opinion should take precedence.

As far as I can see, the tactics creator was created in response to fan demand for an alternative to sliders, and it is even fan-led, with people from the tactics forum heavily involved. The "polished" FM10 came after complaints about half-baked additions.

Another example: in the announcement thread many people named inter-nation cups that they were planning to create - but then they were told it was not actually possible in the new editor.

The same day, a new message goes out: "We got everyone together and figured out how to make international cups work, since a lot of you seemed to be eager for them."

What's that if not concern for your fans?

I still haven't got one of Miles sayings out of my head from a long time ago, he said the customer isn't always right. Quite arrogant IMO

-People post a request in the wishlist for a hundred new features, and then start a thread complaining about how slowly FM runs.

-Very few takes into account how long their suggestions would take to implement, balance and de-bug.

The customer isn't always right. No one who works with customers ever really believes that tired old mantra - work on a consumer helpline for one hour and tell me that the customer's always right. It's patent nonsense.

It's a shame SI don't add a few things a lot of people have asked for such as the user being more involved on a personal level

A very vague complaint indeed. What does "the user being involved on a personal level" mean?

If you're referring to the ability to "buy a car" with your wages, or "get married" then that's fundamentally against their aims for this game, and they've said so:

in first-person shooters you don't fill out paper work for the lawyers after you've killed the bad guys.

It's one of those things, like the press conferences, which have irritated so many, that a manager does, but which we do not envy their ability to do: we all have the right to buy a car and marry, but we don't have the right to tell Man Utd what team to play - that's what the majority are looking for. Managers also have to use the loo, and pay their kids' school fees, but this isn't The Sims, so we don't care.

At least press conferences were football-related.

[fmobande]

In the real world none of us are football managers. It's logical realism stemming from an absurd premise. The best kind of escapism is like a hyper-realistic dream - you feel like it's really happening, you get taken in.

mate i said other video games not football manager

[Hammer1000]

To be fair i'd hardly call FM "Realistic", there is not a single feature in the game that works convincingly and it still becomes mind numbingly easy to massively over perform once you've had the game for a couple of months.

I'd prefer realism if it was attainable, but only because if the game was realistic it would also be just as fun, its the utter lack of realism in every aspect of the game that ruins FM for me.

No offence, just my opinion.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

In the real world none of us are football managers. It's logical realism stemming from an absurd premise. The best kind of escapism is like a hyper-realistic dream - you feel like it's really happening, you get taken in.

I have to be honest and say I think you have totally missed the point here. Totally. The guy explaining his point agrees that non of us are football managers. That was one of his points, he doesn't want to be a football manager. Why you have to then say none of us are football managers is beyond me, still it appears you have cut and paste very select parts of most posts here.

You mean what YOU want. As you can clearly see from the divided nature of this thread, it's impossible to say what "the fans" want, because we all want different things, and we all think our opinion should take precedence.

Lose the bold for a start, if anything it makes me ignore it rather than emphasising it to me. Maybe my point was a bit sweeping by implying all fans wanted it. What I meant is that BGS are including more fun elements which have been suggested by the fans, certainly more fun elements than SI consider as they go down the realism route. By fun I mean less serious aspects of the game btw, some may call them gimmicks, I wouldn't.

-People post a request in the wishlist for a hundred new features, and then start a thread complaining about how slowly FM runs.

-Very few takes into account how long their suggestions would take to implement, balance and de-bug.

The customer isn't always right. No one who works with customers ever really believes that tired old mantra - work on a consumer helpline for one hour and tell me that the customer's always right. It's patent nonsense.

I think you have exaggerated slightly there to get your point across. Yes people post suggestions on the forums but anyone with a right mind can sort the strong ideas from the poor, it's plain to see for anyone apart from the dopey buggers putting the silly requests up. It will also be these silly people who haven't got what they want who complain about the game. I would imagine these people complain no matter what. The people who go on about the same things which are clearly needed, and lets face it there are loads of serious issues which lots and lots of people agree need to be implemented/changed, are the ones who should be listened to, they also never complain much, just say what they feel. The trouble is if it is criticism they are classed as moaning a lot on here.

A very vague complaint indeed. What does "the user being involved on a personal level" mean?

If you're referring to the ability to "buy a car" with your wages, or "get married" then that's fundamentally against their aims for this game, and they've said so:

in first-person shooters you don't fill out paper work for the lawyers after you've killed the bad guys.

It's one of those things, like the press conferences, which have irritated so many, that a manager does, but which we do not envy their ability to do: we all have the right to buy a car and marry, but we don't have the right to tell Man Utd what team to play - that's what the majority are looking for. Managers also have to use the loo, and pay their kids' school fees, but this isn't The Sims, so we don't care.

At least press conferences were football-related.

You may as well have saved your time here because you have got your assumption wrong. The moment you put 'if you're referring' you may as well have stopped typing because all what you put is just plain daft again and obviously used to exaggerate your point yet again.

By personal level I was referring to the fact that you can manage a team for 30 seasons then decide to leave and nothing happens. Whether it be a simple stat which appears on your profile, a visual thing, perhaps your rep in the game could change? I don't know but it needs looking at. If Fergie left those scum bags would it be forgotten in a day? I doubt it. If, and I know he wouldn't, but if he managed another team would there always be the Man Utd connection with him? It should appear somewhere or you should have a note put on the teams information screen other than just favoured people etc. This is the same for a long serving player, they need to be more recognised for their contribution rather than just fade away to nothing. These little touches would make it more personal IMO. Obviously not the daft stuff you came up with.

[fmobande]

Video games should not just be “fun.” They shouldn’t just serve as “entertainment.” As gamers, we have been present for the birth and adolescence of what may be the single most important and inclusive art form in the history of mankind, and yet all we ever do with that art form is create better and prettier methods of driving fast, shooting accurately, and blowing things up spectacularly. It may seem odd to demand more than just simple entertainment from a medium that has provided us with nothing but for the past thirty years, but an escape from escapism is exactly what the medium needs.

The time has come for video gaming to move beyond a simple diversion, and become something more. Escapism isn’t enough: it’s about time for video games to be disturbing, depressing, timely, political, thought-provoking, and, above all, meaningful.

Hit the jump to see a full breakdown of what video games need to become.

Now a days people want to make realism games why have realism games when we live in the world fun games are better because it do-sent happen to us

Assassin's Creed II

Uncharted 2: Among Thieves

God of War III

in Famous

Super Mario

World of war-craft

Final Fantasy

Crash Bandit

these are the popular unrealistic games that don't happen to us everyday.

Bang quote "that don't happen to us everyday" some of our dreams is to fly go throw walls ect but that don't happens does it so the only way we can live that dream is to play it in video games everyone wants to be like superman(video game) or batman or they superhero's.

or do unrealistic things i for one is saying realism happens in the world so why cant unrealism happen in games.

[Andriko]

FM is the best in this genre without a doubt, and I have played it since cm2.

But I have to agree in a way with Leeds and is OP. Most of the features in FM09 I don't use, and they have been piling up since cm04. So basically, I am playing CM04 and ignoring press talks, individual pre game tactic things for specific players, mostly ignoring team talks (they work better when you do that btw), except it is so slow sometimes.

And further more, I really don't need stuff like touch line shouts, or 3d match engines etc, because I don't see the long term point.

Personally, I think the makers of the game have added so much 'fluff' just for the sake of its, that its gotten silly. And as for what his names comment 'the customer is not always right,' that is very true, yet they listen to too many customers. They should stop adding features and work on the basic fundamentals of the game. Look at out of the park baseball (once owned by SI), the game is great without any of the features in FM currently, and I would hate if they added any.

But like i said, FM is still the best out there.

[William Hall]

You cannot blame SI from going down a successful (and better imo) path with FM

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

FM is the best in this genre without a doubt, and I have played it since cm2.

But I have to agree in a way with Leeds and is OP. Most of the features in FM09 I don't use, and they have been piling up since cm04. So basically, I am playing CM04 and ignoring press talks, individual pre game tactic things for specific players, mostly ignoring team talks (they work better when you do that btw), except it is so slow sometimes.

And further more, I really don't need stuff like touch line shouts, or 3d match engines etc, because I don't see the long term point.

Personally, I think the makers of the game have added so much 'fluff' just for the sake of its, that its gotten silly. And as for what his names comment 'the customer is not always right,' that is very true, yet they listen to too many customers. They should stop adding features and work on the basic fundamentals of the game. Look at out of the park baseball (once owned by SI), the game is great without any of the features in FM currently, and I would hate if they added any.

But like i said, FM is still the best out there.

You make some good points.

I think one thing we are all forgetting, including myself, is that when we all say I have been playing it since CM2, we haven't really. CM2 was the other lots game, not SI's....

Anyway, you are spot on when you say they should focus on the fundamentals, the stuff they have added like the matchday build up is just well.......plain annoying. On 07 you have to click a few times to get to the game, on 08/09 its about 3 more clicks every game! Why the hell do I want to assign Opp instructions every game? Oh yes I am man utd playing against Burton Albion in the cup, better mark their striker out the game cos he is a demon....not. Basically if I want to set them I will, but I dont want to have to click every time just to say I dont want to do it! plus in 07 the game forwarded you to the team talk, in 08/09 you have to click to get there, just take me there I dont wanna se the formation screen for 3 mins thanks! Urrrgh.

One of the biggest factors has to be the animation though, the 2D engine has been ruined by the fact that every shot that goes in looks as if it is going over! It looks daft and it is such a downward step since the beautiful fluent 07 animations.

Why can't they just add some nice touches and leave the good old basics alone.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

You cannot blame SI from going down a successful (and better imo) path with FM

Can you explain why you think it is better?

[celebritykiller]

I think one thing we are all forgetting, including myself, is that when we all say I have been playing it since CM2, we haven't really. CM2 was the other lots game, not SI's....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_Manager_2

"Championship Manager 2 is a football management computer game in the Sports Interactive's Championship Manager series"

Edit: boy did I get nostalgic seeing that box again :-), I'd love a bit of Clive Tyldesley audio commentary again (improved ofc) for a new FM

[akagi]

P.S. I remember a post not so long ago about someone who did put on a suit for his FM team's FA Cup Final. That is true dedication.

Well, maybe my dedication is not equal but I had my FMLive team badges embroided. Have one on my backpack .

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_Manager_2

"Championship Manager 2 is a football management computer game in the Sports Interactive's Championship Manager series"

Edit: boy did I get nostalgic seeing that box again :-), I'd love a bit of Clive Tyldesley audio commentary again (improved ofc) for a new FM

That's strange because if you look at CM's website they have a 'history' bit. It goes through the entire history of games they produced and CM2 is on there....I wouldn't have thought they could do that if SI had made it/had the rights for it.

While wikipedia is a good general source of information it is flawed isn't it because all the information is created by the public? I may be wrong.

I know what you mean about the box! It made me remember my school days!

[DivineOne]

That's strange because if you look at CM's website they have a 'history' bit. It goes through the entire history of games they produced and CM2 is on there....I wouldn't have thought they could do that if SI had made it/had the rights for it.

They're known to lie a bit about that. CM1,2,3 & 4 has al been SI

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

So why don't SI do something about it?

I find it hard to believe that if SI do own the rights and did produce the games that they wouldnt lay claim to them....or at least stop CM from saying they did.

[Neji]

Eidos own the rights to CM, not SI.

[abfc]

So why don't SI do something about it?

I find it hard to believe that if SI do own the rights and did produce the games that they wouldnt lay claim to them....or at least stop CM from saying they did.

I dont know all the ins and outs but SI used to work with Eidos and there was a split. Even though CM was Ov and co's baby, Eidos owned the rights to the name. So FM was born:)

[Ainu]

Lose the bold for a start, if anything it makes me ignore it rather than emphasising it to me. Maybe my point was a bit sweeping by implying all fans wanted it. What I meant is that BGS are including more fun elements which have been suggested by the fans, certainly more fun elements than SI consider as they go down the realism route. By fun I mean less serious aspects of the game btw, some may call them gimmicks, I wouldn't.

Call them what you like, for now they're gimmicks. What's the set piece editor worth if the AI is shockingly bad and the match engine laughably broken? And that's where CM went wrong. Listening to the fans and adding "fun" (not so fun when none of it works as intended) stuff is all good and well, but you have to get the basics right first. FM's match engine, for all its occasional frustrations, is so much more enjoyable than anything else out there it's not even a contest. On top of that, the tactics creator in FM10 is definately the result of listening to the fans, and it's a fundamental improvement. An addition that will ultimately make the game far more enjoyable (dare I say fun?) as opposed to all those "fun" additions in CM10 which are made obsolete by the terrible mechanics of the game. Of course it would be lovely if we would get a load of other features on top of that, but if I had to make a choice, I know (and SI knew as well obviously) what's more important.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

I dont know all the ins and outs but SI used to work with Eidos and there was a split. Even though CM was Ov and co's baby, Eidos owned the rights to the name. So FM was born:)

Thats what I thought until somebody said otherwise! I knew I was right!

[abfc]

Thats what I thought until somebody said otherwise! I knew I was right!

From football manager wiki:

Sports Interactive (commonly abbreviated to SI) are the English computer games company that are responsible for the creation of the Football Manager Series. They were the developers of the Championship Manager series before The Eidos/Sports Interactive Split in 2003.

Founded in 1994 and based in the Old Street area of London, SI has a full-time staff of 60 and employs services of more than 1,500 part-time researchers across the globe, alongside over 100 off-site beta testers. The company?s games have enjoyed an unparalleled history of commercial and critical success, with ten of its creations among the UK's Top 20 fastest-selling PC games of all time, and 5 in the UK?s top 20 best selling PC games of all time. Football Manager 2009 was top of the PC Game Charts for an amazing 22 weeks! Sports Interactive became a wholly owned subsidiary of SEGA in 2006.

They are also the creators of the massively popular muliplayer online game Football Manager Live.

Sports Interactive are AFC Wimbledon's current main sponsor, with their logo appearing on the AFC Wimbledon shirt.

The Eidos-Sports Interactive split

In 2003, Sports Interactive split with publishers Eidos and signed a deal with SEGA to continue the series under the new name. SI Games retained the base code, the game database and programming of the game, whilst Eidos kept the name "Championship Manager" and its interface. The reasons for the split have never been revealed, although it is generally felt that Sports Interactive enjoy far greater creative freedom under SEGA. The former working partners are now in direct competition - Eidos and Beautiful Games Studios producing Championship Manager titles, and SEGA and Sports Interactive producing Football Manager.

Although under a different name, Football Manager is very similar in gameplay terms to the previous Championship Manager games. Championship Manager is now a totally new game having been written almost from scratch by a new development team.

[roseboy64]

You don't have to go through all that clicking to start the match. You can untick match day experience. Pretty sure it's in the manual as well. *Sigh*

[Peljam]

Yup you can untick it.

I don't think FM is suddenly less of a legend, either in comparison with CM or on it's own. I know a lot of the opinions either way are going to be based on personal preference, so there won't ever be a definate yes or no on issues, but in my opinion FM is good and is going down the right road.

I play it for the realism, the detail and the sheer level of control you can have. I find it fun that I can immerse myself in a management role and build up a career in FM. I don't think you do need to constantly tweak to win and do well at the game, but I'm glad I've got the option. I'm glad it's not just a simple matter of buying the right players and pressing continue. I'm glad I can make tweaks and changes to squeeze last minute wins out or defend slender leads against better teams. I don't want the game to be easy. If it was then I wouldn't want to play it as much as I do now. I want the challenge. I want the realism.

That's not to say the experience can't be improved and new features aren't needed, but what I've found is that FM does develop from one incarnation to the next. Features that didn't work so well are improved and altered, and the game grows. SI clearly listens to the forum and fans. No they don't always do what people want, or they might not do it as fast as some of the more rabid gamers might like but if the request is reasonable, popular and feasible it gets serious consideration. I don't think it's arrogant to say that the customer isn't always right. There's a lot of truth in that statement, and the truth means it's not arrogance or overconfidence. I'm happy it's been said because it lets us know where SI stand. They're not going to pander to fans and risk the progress they've made.

As for CM listening to fans...I don't think they've listened any more than SI. And they certainly haven't done a better job than SI of turning the fan's ideas and wishes into a workable game feature. I gave the CM demo a chance and what strikes me is how unfavourably it's coming off in comparison with FM09. If the best it can say is 'I have a set piece creator that might work' and 'I have a slightly better looking 3D match, that might work' then I'm not even going to waste the 2.51 on it. Not only are they working against the clock to fix the basics but even once they've fixed the basics they still aren't doing well in comparison with a game that's almost a year old. When FM10 comes out it's going to take the legs from under CM10, assuming it's still standing at that point.

I think what this thread has brought up in improvements for SI is the need to make a lot of the features optional. I don't know how feasible that is but I think it's an idea that could go down well. If you don't want to use certain features you could untick them, like the match experience, or if you wanted a specific combination then a user could choose them. Personally I'd use all the options and features but the choice would be great for those who want the experience to be a little less in depth.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

You don't have to go through all that clicking to start the match. You can untick match day experience. Pretty sure it's in the manual as well. *Sigh*

Do you really think I haven't unticked matchday experience? I am not just on here ranting, even with matchday experience unticked, it is still as I described. Perhaps you are the one who needs to read the instructions, it would certainly appear that way.

With it unticked you still have to click opp instructions, you still have to click to go to team talk etc. Don't you know that?

The amount of replies which are wasted on people who assume and don't actually know what they are replying to/talking about is ridiculous, here is yet another case.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Yup you can untick it.

I don't think FM is suddenly less of a legend, either in comparison with CM or on it's own. I know a lot of the opinions either way are going to be based on personal preference, so there won't ever be a definate yes or no on issues, but in my opinion FM is good and is going down the right road.

I play it for the realism, the detail and the sheer level of control you can have. I find it fun that I can immerse myself in a management role and build up a career in FM. I don't think you do need to constantly tweak to win and do well at the game, but I'm glad I've got the option. I'm glad it's not just a simple matter of buying the right players and pressing continue. I'm glad I can make tweaks and changes to squeeze last minute wins out or defend slender leads against better teams. I don't want the game to be easy. If it was then I wouldn't want to play it as much as I do now. I want the challenge. I want the realism.

That's not to say the experience can't be improved and new features aren't needed, but what I've found is that FM does develop from one incarnation to the next. Features that didn't work so well are improved and altered, and the game grows. SI clearly listens to the forum and fans. No they don't always do what people want, or they might not do it as fast as some of the more rabid gamers might like but if the request is reasonable, popular and feasible it gets serious consideration. I don't think it's arrogant to say that the customer isn't always right. There's a lot of truth in that statement, and the truth means it's not arrogance or overconfidence. I'm happy it's been said because it lets us know where SI stand. They're not going to pander to fans and risk the progress they've made.

As for CM listening to fans...I don't think they've listened any more than SI. And they certainly haven't done a better job than SI of turning the fan's ideas and wishes into a workable game feature. I gave the CM demo a chance and what strikes me is how unfavourably it's coming off in comparison with FM09. If the best it can say is 'I have a set piece creator that might work' and 'I have a slightly better looking 3D match, that might work' then I'm not even going to waste the 2.51 on it. Not only are they working against the clock to fix the basics but even once they've fixed the basics they still aren't doing well in comparison with a game that's almost a year old. When FM10 comes out it's going to take the legs from under CM10, assuming it's still standing at that point.

I think what this thread has brought up in improvements for SI is the need to make a lot of the features optional. I don't know how feasible that is but I think it's an idea that could go down well. If you don't want to use certain features you could untick them, like the match experience, or if you wanted a specific combination then a user could choose them. Personally I'd use all the options and features but the choice would be great for those who want the experience to be a little less in depth.

I would certainly agree with you on the optional features. although as I say above, even with matchday experience unticked, it makes hardly any difference.

[roseboy64]

Do you really think I haven't unticked matchday experience? I am not just on here ranting, even with matchday experience unticked, it is still as I described. Perhaps you are the one who needs to read the instructions, it would certainly appear that way.

With it unticked you still have to click opp instructions, you still have to click to go to team talk etc. Don't you know that?

The amount of replies which are wasted on people who assume and don't actually know what they are replying to/talking about is ridiculous, here is yet another case.

Clearly you have to go through opp. instructions and team talks. You just get rid of some of the unnecessary fluff.

[tak]

I am shocked and surprised when people say that FM is realistic. Where do you gather that from? People confuse realism with the number of sliders available. Those two are not the same thing. You can not say a game is more realistic just because there are 75 sliders and 20 positions per slider.

Let me convince you: If you go to the tactic tips page there are hundreds of different plug and play tactics, tactics that you download and use and you instantly win everything. How is that real? How is it close to reality that you will tell your players exactly how far they should pass and close down (having a 1 to 20 range) and then they'll go and conquer the championship? Pfff!

The whole slider thing is just a game gimmick. Some people explore and master the slider system, some are bored instantly and do not bother.

This game lacks realism and it is not becoming more real by increasing the number of sliders and positions. It lacks realism, and it always will, because to immitate real life football you would need million times more data and million times more powerfull processors.

The tweaking (as you call it) and the theorems and the endless pages of blah blah about slider positions have nothing to do with real football but only with this particular game. Whoever is trying to relate the two is wasting his time.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Clearly you have to go through opp. instructions and team talks. You just get rid of some of the unnecessary fluff.

Well if you read what I originally put.........*sigh*

I still don't like this compared to 07???!!! Why, oh why, did I have to explain that to you when it is clear to read?

[DivineOne]

If you go to the tactic tips page there are hundreds of different plug and play tactics, tactics that you download and use and you instantly win everything.

Really? I am yet to see a plug and play tactic that works for every team.

Btw, sliders are going in fm2010 (well, you can still use them if you really want".

[Peljam]

I am shocked and surprised when people say that FM is realistic. Where do you gather that from? People confuse realism with the number of sliders available. Those two are not the same thing. You can not say a game is more realistic just because there are 75 sliders and 20 positions per slider.

I am shocked and suprised when people make assumptions. Actually I'm not that suprised

I base my statement on realism from my own opinion, as I stated. And no, I don't think it is 'complete' realism, otherwise it would be indistinguishable from reality. Clearly no computer is at this point.

I think it's realistic because the system of stats and attributes is a close approximation of the abilities of real players. I think it's realistic because of the way the game and actions in it develop. I'm not talking soley about the tactics. At no point did I actually say what I think makes it more realistic. I just just said I felt it was quite realistic and that was the way to go, and that having more control lends itself to more realism in general.

Why would taking away options completely, and dumbing down my level of control over certain aspects like the tactics make it any more realistic? Anymore fun for me?

Let me convince you: If you go to the tactic tips page there are hundreds of different plug and play tactics, tactics that you download and use and you instantly win everything. How is that real? How is it close to reality that you will tell your players exactly how far they should pass and close down (having a 1 to 20 range) and then they'll go and conquer the championship? Pfff!

The whole slider thing is just a game gimmick. Some people explore and master the slider system, some are bored instantly and do not bother.

That's not really convinced me in the slightest. First of all the chances of downloading one tactic and then instantly winning everything is slim to none. It's hyperbole on your part to assume thats what happens. And it's a further assumption on your part to think that thats how I and other users play the game. I develop my own tactics, make my own changes. That is realistic as managers are able to make their own tactics.

You seem to be arguing a bit of a daft point, no offense intended. Is using a slider a realistic representation of how tactics work in real life? No, if anything it's just the unpolished representation of what the game is doing, whether you use a slider to do it, the new tactics creator or some other simpler method. All will be converted in to quantifiable format to create the tactics and implement them with the match engine. But by having the the sliders, or the choice of using the sliders when the new tactics creator is in place I have more control. I sometimes look at it as me being able to tell a player 'I don't want you to be closing down every player with the ball. Leave the last third of the pitch alone' by setting the slider to the equivilant position.

The slider system isn't a gimmick. It's just the bare bones of tactic creation. It's just one representation. Not being able to see it, or using another 'point and click' version of tactic creation doesn't get rid of the fact it's there. Just means you get less control over things.

From reading what you've said again....

How is it close to reality that you will tell your players exactly how far they should pass and close down (having a 1 to 20 range) and then they'll go and conquer the championship? Pfff!

You also don't seem to understand the tactics. Players don't do exactly what you tell them to do. Some players will do what they want, some will do what you want some of the time and some will try to do what you want but fail.

It would be unrealistic for you to tell a player exactly what to do and have them do it without fail. That's not what happens in FM. In FM you can tell them what to do, to various levels of detail using the slider, and depending on factors they may or may not do it at all, well or when you want.

This game lacks realism and it is not becoming more real by increasing the number of sliders and positions. It lacks realism, and it always will, because to immitate real life football you would need million times more data and million times more powerfull processors.

The tweaking (as you call it) and the theorems and the endless pages of blah blah about slider positions have nothing to do with real football but only with this particular game. Whoever is trying to relate the two is wasting his time.

Every game in the world that isn't mistaken for reality lacks realism. I don't think anyone is actually trying to say that they play FM and need a slap round the face from a relative to bring them back to Earth. But the game does strive for more and more realism, and I find that increases my immersion in the game.

Again, I don't want to see more sliders and positions. I'm looking for improvements in media, player interaction, the feel an accuracy of the match engine, the accuracy of the rule information and collation of player data.

I'm not relating sliders to realism. I'm relating sliders to control.