Who should be a -10

[SCIAG]

Because he's playing in a squad with more talented individuals in it than 'boro, in a higher level league and still getting time on the pitch. And when he does play he does stuff like his goal against Stoke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrLM4GLv7QQ

Again, he may not fulfil his potential, but given the above should be rated with high potential.

That doesn't affect his potential. And fwiw he was doing stuff like that when 'boro were in the Prem.

[ArranoBeltza]

Messi moved to Barca at 13, was playing at 16

Portugal is no slouch either, certainly do well in CL for example. Cristiano was known by the club as a great talent and broke the team equally early.

You don't see Belgium as some of the best in europe do you? They're lucky to get a team a year into the CL, let alone get past the group stages. Lukaku hasn't played in a top class league, thats simply fact - at best 8th in Europe - Behind: England, France, Spain, Italy, and Germany, Portugal, and Scotland. These countries are all better, no? Turkey too are better, if you want to include them as well.

Belgium is 14th- ahead of Scotland which is 16th (according to UEFA Coefficients). Portugal and Turkey aren't too far ahead, either.

[ArsenalFan7]

He's bound to of been said but I think that potentially Davide Santon could be -10

[phnompenhandy]

Some of these posts are missing the point about PA. Very few players should and do reach their PA. Only under the optimum conditions and with optimum hidden personality attributes can they have a chance of maxing out. Generally, I'd say -10 should go to very young players who look very exciting but are unknown quantities. There's no reason why a -10 kid shouldn't emerge at Brentford, Belgium or Bhutan. They won't develop much there, but will likely be scouted and picked up early by a bigger club.

I think Lukaku would be a prime candidate. Normally such young players should have random (0) hidden attributes; thus, some -10 PA kids will turn out to be Freddy Adu-types and only a few would go on to be Messi-esque. Remember, with low hidden attributes such as Ambition and Professionalism, they will hardly progress at all, even at a top club.

I've used the editor to create 13-year-old sensation Islam Feruz of Celtic and given him -10. I've no idea what his hidden attributes are , so it will be interesting to see how he develops, if at all.

[ac13]

He'll just be another Freddy Adu imo

All the superstars today were never taken too much notice of - Cristiano was a great talent, but iirc not much notice was taken, Messi was considered second fiddle to Dos santos while he was younger too, I think Messi got over it by spending alot of time improving his Physical side.

@Zele Ismail post.

And Leon Osman was by far the best player in the u21's in the era of Joe Cole and co.

Also Rodwell may be a -10 pa central defender one day. Tough to tell seen as he doesn't play there now...but he will NEVER be a great central midfielder. I've watched just about every Everton game this season and he is absolutely woeful off the ball. He's a decent passer and shows good composure but he's hardly a creative force. Also has scored just once all season from numerous shots. He's a pretty good tackler and good in the air but mainly just jogs around the middle of the field not really getting into areas where he's that useful either defensively or in an attacking sense.

Everton have gone from a relegation threatened team to a team that would be in the top 4 since he's been out of the team.

[fabioke]

Lukaku he is just a beast.

[7zige]

Looking at the start of this thread, I dont agree with Rodwell being a -9 at all, -10 maybe, but -9 wont do him any justice..He has a set PA already and it is good enough for any team in the world. Hazard has a set PA as well and it is a very good one, kudos to the researcher. Pjanic -10? NO WAY since his current PA makes him one of the best midfield prospects at the start of the game(imagine him getting 170 with -10,). Canales and Lukaku proved themselves enough, no argument about that. Regarding Salvio, im not sure though since I dont pay much attention to the argentinian league, but hey he's bought by Athletico Madrid and is suppose to replace Aguero when he leaves(which he hasnt).

And I'm sure you guys know Alan Dzagoev right? This boy is the 2nd youngest ever Russian capped player and is an important player(playmaker) for CSKA. He had a PA of 180 in FM09 but was lowered to a negative one(not -10 of course)...He IMO deserves a -10, or at least keep his PA of 180 he had in FM09.

[scofi_b]

Jean Carlos Chera...? don't think hes even in the game yet:(

But he is just fantastic

I also agree with neymar, in time he will be world class

[Scoham]

-10s are for players that could potentially be outstanding in a lot of areas, physically, technically and mentally. Some will say Messi isn't big and powerful, but then he deserves 18s, 19s and 20s in plenty of other areas to make up for it.

Considering the best English players have CAs around 175-180, there should rarely be any English players that deserve -10.

I've used the editor to create 13-year-old sensation Islam Feruz of Celtic and given him -10. I've no idea what his hidden attributes are , so it will be interesting to see how he develops, if at all.

From what I saw of him on the Victory Shield I doubt he's going to be worth a -10. Not saying he won't be a good player, could be a -9, I don't know, but I'd be surprised if he's ever good enough to be a -10 palyer.

[Welshace]

Some of these posts are missing the point about PA. Very few players should and do reach their PA. Only under the optimum conditions and with optimum hidden personality attributes can they have a chance of maxing out. Generally, I'd say -10 should go to very young players who look very exciting but are unknown quantities. There's no reason why a -10 kid shouldn't emerge at Brentford, Belgium or Bhutan. They won't develop much there, but will likely be scouted and picked up early by a bigger club.

I think Lukaku would be a prime candidate. Normally such young players should have random (0) hidden attributes; thus, some -10 PA kids will turn out to be Freddy Adu-types and only a few would go on to be Messi-esque. Remember, with low hidden attributes such as Ambition and Professionalism, they will hardly progress at all, even at a top club.

I've used the editor to create 13-year-old sensation Islam Feruz of Celtic and given him -10. I've no idea what his hidden attributes are , so it will be interesting to see how he develops, if at all.

quoted for non-mindless-drivel-shock

ive always seen negative potentials as a way of saying ' ok, so we have no idea how good this young player could possibly be.. but he certainly looks like he has the goods , so we'll give him a range for now until we know better'

the likes of reuben noble-lazarus, zele ismail, connor wickham and some of the young lads recently gone to liverpool and man utd all deserve high negative PA's in my book.

lukaku is the only one i can possibly think of that 100% definately deserves a -10 but there are plenty around who might be in with a shout

[phnompenhandy]

Must be the first time in my life I've ever been accused of "non-mindless drivel"

[Encatuse]

I actually see only three young players in Europe who really deserve a -10: Kroos, Lukaku and Pjanic.

[Ty]

Marc Wilson blatently deserves to be a -10

[SUCK IT]

Pedro/ Santon -10's what do you think

Also anyone think that Collison is extremly underated in Football Manager, obviously not -10 but, how is he a 165

[Imdagreatest]

Danny Wilson of Rangers could be in with a shout of a -10 in a few years time.

[AcidBurn]

I don't think Pedro will get any better than he already is. At 22 he was a late bloomer I think he deserves a reasonably high CA but shouldn't have a -10 as he will not be one of the best in the world. People have to realise that a -10 means they could become one of the best players in the history of football there is no way that Pedro will even become one of the best current players in the world never mind one of the best ever.

[SUCK IT]

Not really but can you see Salvio being as good.

What about Collisons potential far too low (not a -10 obviously)

[AcidBurn]

Not really but can you see Salvio being as good.

What about Collisons potential far too low (not a -10 obviously)

I can't see Salvio being anywhere near it. I think most players showing potential should be given a -9 or a high set PA.

[TH21]

Santon and Neymar should definitely be a -10

[edgar555]

Santon and Neymar should definitely be a -10

A couple of people have mentioned Santon but he really seems to have suffered from 2nd season syndrome, I'm really not convinced.

[Mitty]

Santon performs reasonably well going forward but isn't a solid defensive fullback at all (which is represented well in FM), it's really hard to tell how good he will be in the future when he's forced to play left back and the opposition can easily predict he will cut back onto his right foot before crossing, perhaps if Maicon were to leave he'd have a chance to fully blossom but I can't see that happening either unfortunately!

[Darry Casey]

i think bojan and breno

[dagoonerfan]

Jack Wilshere, Aaron Ramesey, Jack Rodwell

[ArsenalFan7]

Jack Wilshere, Aaron Ramesey, Jack Rodwell

Ramsey is now a -10.

Not quite sure if a broken leg will help him reach that potential in RL though...

[Indi75]

Ramsey is now a -10.

Not quite sure if a broken leg will help him reach that potential in RL though...

-10 always excessive for Ramsey, amazed the Arsenal researcher got it past the HR. There's no way on earth he's a -10 in FM11, he'll be out for half a year if everything heals perfectly and even then his development will have been stunted even before we get into the issues of the long term effects, possible complications, and the inherent weakness of that area above his ankle.

Rodwell never a -10, will end up as a 160-163 when he hits 21, you wait and see.

Not sure that many players should be -10 at all to be fair.

That said, the existing -10's are crap on my long term games. CA/PA has nothing on determination, consistency, ambition, natural fitness, and half a dozen position specific attributes be they hidden or otherwise.

[x42bn6]

-10 always excessive for Ramsey, amazed the Arsenal researcher got it past the HR. There's no way on earth he's a -10 in FM11, he'll be out for half a year if everything heals perfectly and even then his development will have been stunted even before we get into the issues of the long term effects, possible complications, and the inherent weakness of that area above his ankle.

I'm afraid the Arsenal researcher never received his crystal ball. I blame Royal Mail.

[7zige]

Pedro/ Santon -10's what do you think

Also anyone think that Collison is extremly underated in Football Manager, obviously not -10 but, how is he a 165

Do you mean Jack Collison? 165 is a very good PA..Puts him one of the best if not the best in West Ham

Rodwell never a -10, will end up as a 160-163 when he hits 21, you wait and see.

:eek: Can you lend me your crystal ball

[Red Owl]

Hang on, what? Is -10 the best PA a player can have? Because erm... that makes no sense. Surely 200 (I think that's the highest PA you can have) should be the best? Or is that too straightforwards?

[Kryston]

If you feel a player should justify a higher PA or CA, you can always alter it with the editor.

One good examples was Pedro who was no more than an average fringe player for Barca back in FM 09 and 10.1 FM 10.

But his continual goal scoring exploit (scoring in 6 different competitions is no mean feat) showed that he really had blossomed into a fine player with great awareness and anticipation in the game, then again it might not be the same if he was not playing at Barca.

I always love to see Bojan Kirkic becoming a world beater in the previous editions of FM but of course his PA was well hampered because of lesser and lesser opportunity to play at Barcelona.

He is still young and see if he could be a first team regular in the next season.

How about Thomas Muller of Bayern Munich? He had not been spoken in the same breath as Toni Kroos or Mesut Ozil but he had weighed in a few important goals for the Bavarians.

I have not check his PA but definitely much less than Kroos and Ozil

[Cantens]

Technical editing question: for example, if you use the editor to increase a player's PA from -7 to -8, should you also adapt his CA accordingly to maintain the gap and the balance between both abilities?

[x42bn6]

Technical editing question: for example, if you use the editor to increase a player's PA from -7 to -8, should you also adapt his CA accordingly to maintain the gap and the balance between both abilities?

It really depends. Researchers get this funky tool which helps them see whether a player is likely to reach their PA or not. In general though not always, but CA and PA are correlated in some way and usually showing more potential corresponds to some change in terms of how they are doing right now.

[Cantens]

It really depends. Researchers get this funky tool which helps them see whether a player is likely to reach their PA or not. In general though not always, but CA and PA are correlated in some way and usually showing more potential corresponds to some change in terms of how they are doing right now.

Thanks for the info; I suspected both were proportionally related. Reason for me not to mess too much with PA's:).

[charlo116]

I'm sure its already been mentioned but a -10 is hard to give out because what young player can you really say will definently become world class? As much as it depends on natural talent it also depends on a young players personality and their approach to training as well as the conditions they are under as they develop. A few years ago anyone could have been forgiven for saying Anderson would definently be a world class player one day but now I struggle to see how he can get there.

Having said that i think SI have done a brilliant job by reducing the number of youngsters with -10 PA for fm 2010 because i felt there were too many in previous versions of FM.

[robbert_o154]

Hang on, what? Is -10 the best PA a player can have? Because erm... that makes no sense. Surely 200 (I think that's the highest PA you can have) should be the best? Or is that too straightforwards?

Yeah, but a negative PA means that in every new savegame a player will be handed a random PA within a certain range. With -10 a player can get a PA of 200. The range you're talking about with -10 is between one of the best - if not the best - in his position in the world today, and bestest in the world ever. So imo it should be given out very sparingly.

Also - and here I stumble upon the limits of my knowledge regarding this whole thing, so anybody more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm wrong - on various places on this forum I read that a player's physical attributes take up a lot of CA. So would it be correct to say that -10s should really go with a strong physical presence? The impression I get is that Bojan shouldn't be a -10 for that reason alone.

[matt1389]

Also - and here I stumble upon the limits of my knowledge regarding this whole thing, so anybody more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm wrong - on various places on this forum I read that a player's physical attributes take up a lot of CA. So would it be correct to say that -10s should really go with a strong physical presence? The impression I get is that Bojan shouldn't be a -10 for that reason alone.

Physicals do take up more CA points but it doesn't mean they have to be a -10. If you have a look at Agbonlahor from Aston Villa, his physical stats are extremely good but the rest of him is a bit rubbish tbh despite his decent CA, this is because of his physicals. But if you look at Canales, he has some really good technical and mental stats, but his physicals are low. The low physical players tend to have lots of good technical stats in my experience.

edit: Same with Kroos, his physical stats are never that great on my saves but his technical stats... wow.

[robbert_o154]

Physicals do take up more CA points but it doesn't mean they have to be a -10. If you have a look at Agbonlahor from Aston Villa, his physical stats are extremely good but the rest of him is a bit rubbish tbh despite his decent CA, this is because of his physicals. But if you look at Canales, he has some really good technical and mental stats, but his physicals are low. The low physical players tend to have lots of good technical stats in my experience.

edit: Same with Kroos, his physical stats are never that great on my saves but his technical stats... wow.

Yeah, that is what I meant, I think I didn't explain myself very clearly before, sorry. You give some good examples, so my question is this: would you say that by giving Bojan, Caneles or any other talented player with low physical stats a -10, this would cause their technical stats to go OTT once their CA started to near their PA? And would for that reason giving a -9 not be preferable?

[matt1389]

Yeah, that is what I meant, I think I didn't explain myself very clearly before, sorry. You give some good examples, so my question is this: would you say that by giving Bojan, Caneles or any other talented player with low physical stats a -10, this would cause their technical stats to go OTT once their CA started to near their PA? And would for that reason giving a -9 not be preferable?

Ah right, my bad. Yeah I guess it would. In the 'Rate the Regen' thread there's lots of them with crazy technical stats but they can't run and are as weak as a baby so I guess the same could happen to real players.

Out of curiosity, does anyone remember if Messi was a -10 when he 16/17?

[Nørbæk]

I reckon the "definitely going to become world class" statement is off the mark, what has, for example, Eduardo Salvio proved?

Yes, he got a cap, but Maradona makes weird decisions, Higuain is awesome but iirc he doesn't even have 5 caps.

But anyway, Kjaer. imo best CB at his age shown more than Otamendi atleast imo

No way Simon Kjær should be a -10.

He's not technically sound enough nor is he fast enough.

[Proteus]

Danny Wilson of Rangers could be in with a shout of a -10 in a few years time.

I recognise that you're only saying he could become a -10 player in the future and not that he is definitely going to become one. But I don't think there has been a -10 player emerging from Scotland since the very first version of Championship Manager back in 1992.

If you could go back in time, Kenny Dalglish is probably the last -10 player emerging from Scotland! I can't think of any player in Scotland who currently deserves a -10 allocation. And sadly I don't think we will see anyone with a -10 for a very long time.

FWIW I think Danny Wilson will become a good defender, but not one of the best defenders in the world.

[SUCK IT]

What about now lads any -10's now were at the end of the season