[10.3] 4-2-4 Disruption

[Elhan]

1. The purpose and philosophy of the tactic.

I decided to make a winger tactic just because I got bored of all the narrow formations that the AI seems to heavily favour at the moment. My intention was not to find and exploit weaknesses in the AI, but rather to prove that you can still get very good results while playing a type of football not very far from what you would see on an actual football pitch.The key elements to this tactic are:

1. Disrupting the opposition by putting pressure on them all over the pitch, making the team work as a solid defensive unit and concede as few goals as possible. In order for a 4-2-4 to work, the wingers and one of the strikers must track down the opposition, otherwise you will just get overwhelmed in the middle of the pitch and/or the opposition fullbacks won't be marked properly. While not employing a similar formation, the team I had in mind when trying to get the players to pressure and mark properly was Chelsea '06, although England in this world cup tried to play a similar pressing game (but failed horribly).

2. Playing a direct, fast, counter attacking game. Just because I got tired of narrow formations employing short passing, slow tempos. This version of the tactic uses a poacher and a more multi-purposed, defensive striker that plays deeper (think Carlos Tevez for example). It can however work with a standard big man/little man combination, with a few adjustments. The core of this tactic really is the defensive setup and creating space for counterattacks.

Results so far:

While trying to create this formation, I started a new Tottenham game, mainly because they have so many players and it would allow me to test various different options. Despite the fact that I changed the tactic almost every game I still managed to win the PL without making any transfers (I actually had to sell Lennon to Barcelona mid season too). For some reason I conceded about half of my total goals from corners aimed at the far post, but the version of the tactic I use now seems to somewhat adress that problem. Here is the Tottenham game:

My star player turned out to be Robbie Keane, who was employed in the defensive striker position:

Players stats:

This tactic requires good physical and mental attributes from all your players. Teamwork and workrate are important to all players. More specifically:

Right ST/Poacher: your standard poacher, needs high pace/acceleration/dribling/flair. If he also has good agility and balance you don't have to worry about his composure and finishing, just teach him to go round the keeper if he doesn't already have that ppm.

Left ST/Defensive Striker: lots of different combinations can work. Both Kevin Doyle and Robbie Keane have performed really well for me. Generally a versatile guy with high workrate and teamwork, adjust the FWR, TTB, RWB sliders according to his talents. A slower, technical, creative guy work as well.

Wingers: Any winger can work, even "wrong" footed ones, as long as they are fast and can take attackers one on one through dribbling/flair.

MC: Teamwork, workrate and must not be too slow. Off the ball, positioning and passing are also important. Against smaller teams you can have a very attacking, good dribbling guy here (think Montolivo, Modric etc), but personally I prefer very physical players with good mental attributes. Palacios was consistantly the best player in my Tottenham game.

DM: Again, I would prefer a player with good physical and mental attributes. If you are managing a very good team and have a DM with all that, plus passing skills, it will give you more options for starting counter attacks.

Fullbacks: Your standard defensive fullback, not too slow and with good mentas if possible.

DC: Your standard tall/slow DCs will work just fine if they have the proper mental attributes (positioning, concentration, anticipation etc). If you are blessed to have that, plus speed (the Everton defenders for example), it will give your team a lot of options when adjusting your defensive line.

GK: No need for a sweeper keeper, just a standard keeper that can block shots through positioning and reflexes and isn't too terrible when dealing with crosses.

Download link:

mediafire: http://www.mediafire.com/?vhdl63qoadb7hln

Filefront: http://www.filefront.com/17249610/

Edit: some minor tweaks

Important note: If you are looking to hold on to a result and want to minimize chances of conceding assign your wingers to specific mark the opposition fullbacks. It will make you a bit less dangerous on the counter but will work better defensively. In fact it might be a good idea to do this whenever the opposition fullbacks are looking to overlap, otherwise your wingers won't track back that deep.

Download link for V2: http://www.mediafire.com/?9y93g8p552nwp19

[Elhan]

I started a new season with Wolves (and made 3 cheap first team transfers plus a couple of youngsters, and so far the results have been much more stable than with Tottenham, because I have played with the same strategy in all the games. I strolled through the friendlies, trashed Tottenham 4-1 and had a very unlucky 1-1 with Man Utd (I failed to score some one on one chances and conceded an own goal). Here are the screenies of my Wolves team and games I mentioned:

Wolves first team:

Wolves fixtures so far (begining of season):

Vs Tottenham:

Vs Untied:

I think it migh be possible to get one of the CL places, I will update this with results as soon as I can.

[Dgirth]

You muct be a mind reader. I have been trying to make a tactic like this and have failed badly, Im play as Airdrie Utd, Im punching well above my weight in the SPL and europe. I cant compete with the bigger team in the SPL when it comes to money so i need to rely on shrewd signings and strong tactics.

I will give this tactic 15 games and will report back

[eddiv3dd3r]

how the result getting on with wolves?

[Elhan]

how the result getting on with wolves?

I will update in detail once I hit the middle of the season and then at the end. So far I've played 4 games since the United one: 5-0 home vs Torquay (league cup), 3-1 away vs Birmingham, 2-2 away Vs Villa, 3-2 home vs West Ham. So far so good, we're second in the PL. What I want to fix is how the teams deals with crosses and corners, we're still conceding silly goals from those. I might have to adjust the keeper settings as well, he really doesn't seem to be able to deal with crosses at all.

[Dgirth]

Well, I played five game now with this tactic all against better teams. won four and drawn 1, the game i draw was against Lazio in the Eurocup, I was unlucky not to snatch a win.

I find have a fast DM with decent passing really help, My Dm is always first to a loose ball or interceptin, thus setting up our counter attack. I have been using Mr houghs, Though i great tactic it was prone to them evil through balls.

This tactic seems to deal with through balls pretty well.

One thing i really love about this tactic its just beautiful to watch.

Two questions i have Elhan is what pitch size you use and what shouts you find work best.

[Elhan]

Pitch size: It depends. I've set it on maximum allowed because the way you break the opposition with this tactic is by width. Plus, you have fast strikers hence you need enough space behind the defence, so setting the pitch to maximum makes sense. However, if your own defenders aren't that fast you might have trouble against better teams hitting you on the counter, so really, I think it depends on your team. Personaly I always use maximum because I like to risk.

Shouts: usually I don't follow a specific pattern, after playing so many games I just instinctivly know what's best for each situation. this post http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/182360-Teamtalks-if-you-are-clueless-... however is very usefull and if you follow it you probably won't have any problem. One thing I do differently is if a player isn't playing too well, I always tell him to prove a point if the option is available, wich I believe is not mentioned in that guide.

P.S. Teamtalks aside, one of the most important things to keep in mind is, I think, knowing when and when not to rotate your squad. I always try to have at least a couple of impact players on the bench. For this tactic it often happens that one of the two strikers is having a bad day, imo it is better to replace him early because if he misses a couple of one on ones with the goalkeeper his chances to score after that won't be too good.

[Elhan]

So, the mid season report as I promised:

If I had bothered to try and sign a defender or two I might even win the PL. My main problem atm is that I concede silly goals because my defenders (especially the fullbacks) are quite awful. My second problem is that my main keeper struggles to deal with crosses.

[LukazTMR]

Hmm Good Tactic Man,very solid defensive and massive attack

my results so far:

[kev08]

cant download it mate could you upload it somewere else like filefont or that

[Elhan]

cant download it mate could you upload it somewere else like filefont or that

Added a filefront link in the original post.

[StevoRobbo]

Is this a plug and play tactic or do you need to use a lot of shouts in matches to win games?

[Elhan]

No shouts. Just be smart with your team talks, rotation and player choices.

[StevoRobbo]

No shouts. Just be smart with your team talks, rotation and player choices.

Ok no probs. I'll give it a go with my Man Utd save. Im using a 4-2-4 also but with 2 MC's. One support and one defend.

[StevoRobbo]

Using your format, do you think these players would fit into your formation?

Right ST/Poacher: Berbatov/Owen

Left ST/Defensive Striker: Rooney/Macheda

Wingers: AMR - Gourcuff/Valencia. AML - Nani/Giggs

MC: Fletcher/Scholes/Carrick

DM: Hargreaves/Carrick/Fletcher

Fullbacks: DL - Evra/Fabio. DR - Rafael/Brown/O'Shea

DC: Ferdinand/Vidic/Evans/Otamendi

GK: Ochoa/Van Der Sar

[aderow]

I would say that they would all work but I think you would be better of using Macheda as a poacher and berbs as a defensive striker

[mosiclover]

please re-upload in mediafire, link died. Thanks!

[Elhan]

You could try using Berbatov as the deep lying/defensive forward, and since he has excellent dribling skills you could probably increase his rwb to often. The reason is he is more creative than rooney, and the way the left ST positions himself on the pitch he often gets the ball first when on the counter, then looks to run at the defenders or play a good through ball to the poacher who plays further up. Also, he might not be fast enough to play as poacher.

As far as wingers go, I don't know how Gourcouff will work, for me he is a classic AMC and I don't know if he has the speed to play on the wings in a counter attacking system. Try it out and let us know. Against teams that don't use 3 miedfielders or in home games or against teams you expect to beat easily I'd play him in the MC position. You can also try to retrain him to play in the defensive striker position.

One last thing, if I were you I'd look to sign a really fast striker with excellent dribling as a benchwarmer just in case Rooney gets some serious injury. The poacher is you main goal scorer, you need one there with the proper stats and I don't know if Macheda/Welbeck are fit for the role. I'd try someone cheap like Gaston Fernandez (he has scored 30 goals in my wolves game and we're still in March) or Djalo...just someone cheap with that set of skills really.

By the way I reploaded with Mediafire, it should be working again.

[Strandgaard82]

I really like this tactic, even though the defense has problems against certain formations. Most games I keep a clean sheet, but sometimes I concede 3-4 goals in the same match, which is something i will look into.

I believe that this tactic can get my Sport London e Benfica promoted to EPL i 2025

[Elhan]

I am having more trouble against teams that play from the flanks, but realy most goals I concede from corners, it's trully a nightmare. Always tell your wingers to specific mark the fullbacks if you see them starting to overlap, it really helps defensively if that's what you are having trouble against. If not, let me know what you are having a hard time against and if you have any suggestions. Thanks!

[RvN#17]

Will this tactic work on 10.3, becaouse i see on your wolves you are using 10.1 i think?

[Elhan]

Will this tactic work on 10.3, becaouse i see on your wolves you are using 10.1 i think?

I'm, having some trouble with my pc so I am running my wolves game from my laptop, I honestly don't know what version it is. I originaly designed the tactic in FML however so it should work just the same in 10.3

edit: yes, it's not 10.3 indeed. Like I said it should run ok since it was designed for FML originaly. After I'm done with the wolves game I'll try a better team in 10.3 to see how it works with some quality players instead of a relegation zone team.

[Elhan]

End of season update: Wolves managed to finish 4th and snatch a CL spot. We also scored the most goals in the PL and our poacher gaston Fernandez won both Top Goalscorer and Footballer of the Year awards. I will continue to try and tweak this tactic to improve it defensively, but with a higher quality team this time. (to be fair, a large part of the goals I conceded were either from corners or crosses when my defenders just got outjumped)

Premier League position:

Wolves first team (for the 2nd part of the season)

[Elhan]

And here are the stats for the two strikers:

Gaston Fernandez:

Kevin Doyle:

[Rooney_08]

Looks very impressive mate well done. once the transfer window is closed ill get new update and start fresh .and get back to you with my results and opinion of the tactic

Cheers

[StevoRobbo]

You could try using Berbatov as the deep lying/defensive forward, and since he has excellent dribling skills you could probably increase his rwb to often. The reason is he is more creative than rooney, and the way the left ST positions himself on the pitch he often gets the ball first when on the counter, then looks to run at the defenders or play a good through ball to the poacher who plays further up. Also, he might not be fast enough to play as poacher.

As far as wingers go, I don't know how Gourcouff will work, for me he is a classic AMC and I don't know if he has the speed to play on the wings in a counter attacking system. Try it out and let us know. Against teams that don't use 3 miedfielders or in home games or against teams you expect to beat easily I'd play him in the MC position. You can also try to retrain him to play in the defensive striker position.

One last thing, if I were you I'd look to sign a really fast striker with excellent dribling as a benchwarmer just in case Rooney gets some serious injury. The poacher is you main goal scorer, you need one there with the proper stats and I don't know if Macheda/Welbeck are fit for the role. I'd try someone cheap like Gaston Fernandez (he has scored 30 goals in my wolves game and we're still in March) or Djalo...just someone cheap with that set of skills really.

By the way I reploaded with Mediafire, it should be working again.

Before you posted this I was looking at Giuseppe Rossi. I think his stats would be perfect for that role. Im gonna get it up and running today so after a few games when the tactic has kicked in I'll let you know how its going.

[heathxxx]

Good old Gastón Fernández! He's always a favourite of mine in FM10

Nice work with Wolves there BTW and evidence that if you utilise the most suited attributes to the roles/positions, you really can do well with most formations. Even wide ones.

Out if interest, did you set things up with the sliders specifically, or utilise the Tactics Creator?

Also, have you thought about instead of a DMC position, using an MC positioned player set to be defensively orientated? Always seems to work better for me and the players match ratings seem to be higher.

[Elhan]

I used individual instructions on everyone for various reasons, I find the creator much too restricting.

Personaly I rarely take ratings seriously, I tend to trust what I actually see on the pitch. Playing him as DMC really makes him intercept more balls and most importantly, cover for the DCs better if they get dragged out of position. I feel it really offers the team better stability, especially since the other MC is set to make late runs into the opponent's area quite often. The right MC ratings are usually really great and he gets to score a lot as well (especially if he has good off the ball skills!), so for me, that makes up for playing with a deep anchor man. However, if you had a player with the proper stats that only plays in the MC position and not the DM one, you could probably play him in the MC position and adjust his mentality and closing down. Personaly, I'd train him to play as a DM as I really feel much more confortable with him playing as a classic anchor man, like Makelele used to do for Chelsea for example.

Generally the formation is quite flexible, for example you can drop the defensive striker in the AMC position and up his mentality a notch or two, or drop the wingers in MR/L positions, you could even try a big man/small man striker partnership... The important thing, in my opinion, is to have an identity as a team, to know what type of football you want your team to play, and make minor adjustments to the settings according to what players you have, what opponent you are facing etc. My goal was to create a high pressure, fast paced, counterattacking style, wich I believe I have achieved to some extent. I will continue to try and tweak this to achieve better results, especially as far as defense goes. I believe that I haven't found the right ballance between attack and defense yet, but I am waiting to get some feedback and see what results others got because my own Wolves defensive line was really weak.

[Blade25]

I assume the left striker is the target man and the MC is the playmaker?

Do you ever use OI's?

[Elhan]

No OIs, I've tried have them close down wingers and fullbacks but it just deteriorates the overall defensive function of the team. No target man or playmaker either, just have run on to ball ticked. If for whatever reason you absolutely have to have a playmaker and a target man, I'd put the left ST as playmaker and right ST as target man, but I really I feel it's better without assigning them.

[StevoRobbo]

Ok ive just used this tactic. Only 1 game so far at home to Marseille in the Champions League with Man Utd and won 6-0. Ive tweaked slightly adding my own settings for attacking/defending corners and free kicks from my other tactic. Marseille had 7 corners in the match and never came close to scoring. I'll play a few more matches and let you know how i get on.

EDIT:

Second game at home to Arsenal. Won 4-1. Arsenal's goal from open play straight after my first goal. Arsenal had 9 corners and no goals from them.

[Blade25]

Ok ive just used this tactic. Only 1 game so far at home to Marseille in the Champions League with Man Utd and won 6-0. Ive tweaked slightly adding my own settings for attacking/defending corners and free kicks from my other tactic. Marseille had 7 corners in the match and never came close to scoring. I'll play a few more matches and let you know how i get on.

Care to share your defensive set-up?

[StevoRobbo]

Care to share your defensive set-up?

I will do when ive played a few more games and make sure it works properly.

[StevoRobbo]

This is how I set my players up for defending corners. Just go down the list as you would in your team starting at the keeper and ending with the last striker. Make sure all the players are ticked so you can set instructions.

DEFENDING CORNERS

GK - Default

DR - Mk Far

DL - Near

DC - Tall

DC - Tall

DMC - Man

MC - Back

AMR - Back

AML - Back

ST - Back

ST - Fwd

DEFENDING FREE KICKS

GK - Default

DR - Man

DL - Man

DC - Man

DC - Man

DMC - Man

MC - Wall

AMR - Wall

AML - Wall

ST - Wall

ST - Fwd

[Blade25]

Brilliant thanks!

[Dgirth]

Well Elhan i have now played my 15 games, I lost 3 and drawn 3. Bear in mind i am playing in the SPL with Airdrie Utd I got a dencent first 11 but not much depth, due to money problem.

Really like this tactic alot i do feel that we need to work on our fullbacks, I concede far to many goals from the flanks.

Great job Elhan i think you have got something very decent here.

[Elhan]

I have the same problem, I keep conceding from the flanks. The best way to counter this so far has been to tell the wingers to specific mark the opposition fullbacks, but that really blunts your counter attacks. I think I am going to try something similar to the way Inter played last year in the CL, have the wingers track back all the way and specific mark the overlapping fulbacks, but at the same time drastically decrease the closing down on the left striker so that he plays more like a deeplying forward/advanced playmaker. Against teams who play from the flanks it might work better than at present. Cheers for the feedback and let me know if you have any ideas to solve this.

P.S. Generally, increasing the defensive line tends to work better defensively, but it will make you score less.

[StormenDK]

looks like a very nice tactic ...I have gotten bored with the narrow ones as I felt they were just exploiting the system, although I still need to use them sometimes as I play mainly lower league teams.

I am guessing this is not really suited for low league football? ..as most pitches are narrow and the players not really that skilled. But I'll give it a go none the less. I am currently playing a game with Fremad Amager, a danish 5th. tier team, and Wolves Casuals in the english 10th tier.

I have been using a 4-2-2-2 with wingers for both teams, but having trouble getting it to work with Wolves C. Seems my amateurs are just plain bad at it and the narrow pitches and my team being pegged easy winners in every game (so the opposition parks the bus) makes it difficult to pull off.

I use the same tactic for the danish team with much better effect. But that might be due to the quality of players, my high reputation team (been relegated three tiers due to bankruptcy, have been able to attract. Your tactics might work well for them, though I have doubts about the Wolves C team.

[Mr Hough]

I have the same problem, I keep conceding from the flanks. The best way to counter this so far has been to tell the wingers to specific mark the opposition fullbacks, but that really blunts your counter attacks. I think I am going to try something similar to the way Inter played last year in the CL, have the wingers track back all the way and specific mark the overlapping fulbacks, but at the same time drastically decrease the closing down on the left striker so that he plays more like a deeplying forward/advanced playmaker. Against teams who play from the flanks it might work better than at present. Cheers for the feedback and let me know if you have any ideas to solve this.

P.S. Generally, increasing the defensive line tends to work better defensively, but it will make you score less.

I think increasing the D-Line makes you score more as you are always putting the opposition under preassure because of the High D-Line, On the flip if it's low your more likely to put yourself under pressure but can be good for countering the opposition if you have quick players.

[Elhan]

It depends on the tactic a bit, with this particular one, since it relies on counterattacks to score, you create space by dropping the D-Line, but just like you said at the cost of inviting pressure on your defenders. I am not yet satisfied with the balance of this tacic, it is really strong offensively but it tends to concede too much without top quality defenders. At first I had some very good results defensively but as I played against better and better teams, especially against some specific formations (wide ones usually), I generally had to beat them simply by outscoring them. I am working on a new version with a stronger defense that will hopefully retain the focus on the style of the original one. All suggestions, ideas and tweaks are more than welcome!

[Mr Hough]

It depends on the tactic a bit, with this particular one, since it relies on counterattacks to score, you create space by dropping the D-Line, but just like you said at the cost of inviting pressure on your defenders. I am not yet satisfied with the balance of this tacic, it is really strong offensively but it tends to concede too much without top quality defenders. At first I had some very good results defensively but as I played against better and better teams, especially against some specific formations (wide ones usually), I generally had to beat them simply by outscoring them. I am working on a new version with a stronger defense that will hopefully retain the focus on the style of the original one. All suggestions, ideas and tweaks are more than welcome!

It completely depends on the tactic and how your team plays but generally the higher the D-Line the more pressure you put your opposition under

[Elhan]

It completely depends on the tactic and how your team plays but generally the higher the D-Line the more pressure you put your opposition under

You also limit the space in wich your players can move into, - there's always a tradeoff. I've not tested this formation with a really high d-line as I did not have the defenders to do that, but I did try increasing it to 12 or so, and the result was I conceded slightly less, but I just couldn't outscore them anymore because there was much less space to sprint into. My original plan was to create a team that would pressure immediatelly after losing possesion and disrupt attacks, but also be able to drop deeper to create more space. I haven't found the right ballance between the two yet like I said, so this version seems to be a high-risk/high-reward tactic that can turn average forwards into the PL's most elite, but it can also make your defenders look like John Terry vs Germany.

[StevoRobbo]

Elhan

Ive posted higher up a set of instructions for players defending corners and free kicks which your more than welcome to use in your tactic. I am yet to concede from a corner from about 18 games. In them games ive played Chelsea (twice), Arsenal, Man City, Marseille and Shalke. Also teams you would expect to be good from set pieces like Stoke and Bolton.

Seeing as im Man Utd and have quite good defenders, I'll have a few tweaks with the D-line and see if I can improve anything. Utd tend to play a higher D-line but as you say, it will restrict space further up the field so I'll just give a bit of trial and error a go and let you know how I get on.

[Elhan]

Yep, I've tried the same setting for the corner with some testsing I am doing atm and it works quite well. Keep me updated on that UtD game, I think it's one of the teams that has a very good setup for this tactic.

[Dgirth]

I have incorporated the creativity and flair thread onto to this formation when i buy players http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/220742-Creativity-and-Flair..

I have left my former club Airdrie Utd after 9 years of success mainly using this tactic and Mr houghs. Boltan have offerd me a job so i will build a whole new team for this tactic.

So after reading Sfraser's veiws I am mainly signing players with good flair and creativy even my CB's and especially my DM, I think Sfraser's idea is perfectly suited to Elhans formation. Will post my findings later.

[Strandgaard82]

P.S. Generally, increasing the defensive line tends to work better defensively, but it will make you score less.

I actually find that increasing D-line by three notches has improved both my attack and my defense. Just got my championship side (Sport London e Benfica) knocked out in overtime in FA semi against wolves. This tactic is really great and after reading the thread about motivation and team talks my team has improved dramatically.

[Elhan]

That creativity thread is quite interesting, thanks for pointing it out for me Dgirth . As for the tactic itself, I have been working to finish another long time project wich and didn't get around to try and fix the defence on this one yet, apart from a few preliminary tests. In the meantime, when playing much better teams with very fast strikers (MU for example), especially in away games, you might want to switch to a less maverick tactic. Glad to see that some others are having fun with this though, playing such a risky style and achieving 4th PL psition with my Wolves team was one of the most cheerished moments in my FM career.

[Strandgaard82]

I have incorporated the creativity and flair thread onto to this formation when i buy players http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/220742-Creativity-and-Flair..

I have left my former club Airdrie Utd after 9 years of success mainly using this tactic and Mr houghs. Boltan have offerd me a job so i will build a whole new team for this tactic.

So after reading Sfraser's veiws I am mainly signing players with good flair and creativy even my CB's and especially my DM, I think Sfraser's idea is perfectly suited to Elhans formation. Will post my findings later.

Please keep us updated. I will try to do the same with Sport London e Benfica in the PL and see how it turns out. I hope, and think, that this tactic will be good for a newly promoted team with a decent amount of talent.

[Dgirth]

5 games into the season with boltan, lost 1 against mancity who are the best team in the world at 2019, and won the other 4.

Key positions for flair and creatriviy are DM. MC AML and AML, if you can get players above 15 for both atributes for the prem then you dont need to worry about the defence to much.

Thinking about starting a new save with a conference team. to fully test it.

Ps Increasing the D-line by three notch's as Strangaard82 suggest's works a treat.

[Blade25]

This tactic allowed me to win everything in the SPL first season with Dundee United, brilliant!