FM 2011 Olympique Lyonnais Thread - Allez Lyon!

[McGougan33]

Gavin good to see you back mate

Purefun Gervinho does look really good in this, i wanted him for a while but decided against the 15 mil price tag, as i would prefer to pay a little extra for Alexis Sanchez on the right wing!

[Purefun]

Indeed 15 mil is a lot but 6 mil is nothing.

[tomtuck01]

Have finally been bothered enough to get back on the FM11 demo for pretty much the first time since the day I downloaded it, and I'm giving it a go with Lyon. Maybe I'll get the bug and actually go and get the full game some time soon!

Ishak.

[Purefun]

I bug you.

[McGougan33]

Indeed 15 mil is a lot but 6 mil is nothing.

6 mil is amazing

[McGougan33]

Have finally been bothered enough to get back on the FM11 demo for pretty much the first time since the day I downloaded it, and I'm giving it a go with Lyon. Maybe I'll get the bug and actually go and get the full game some time soon!

Ishak.

Go on tom we need you, and your phenomenal updates

[tomtuck01]

Go on tom we need you, and your phenomenal updates

More posts like that and I might be persuaded...............

[McGougan33]

More posts like that and I might be persuaded...............

Loved reading those updates mate, they made this thread last year

[tomtuck01]

Loved reading those updates mate, they made this thread last year

What do you mean "last year"? I've been doing them since FM07!

I am actually enjoying my first proper forray into FM11, on my previous demo effort I only managed a couple of friendlies with Real Madrid. So far in this one with Lyon I have played three preseason friendlies and my opening Ligue 1 game against Monaco. My side were unimpressive in the three friendlies, but we beat Monaco 3-0 thanks to a double from Gomis and a penalty from Bastos.

I have enjoyed coming up with a tactic, and love the Lyon youth players this year. I've got to say though, I hate Yoann Gourcuff thus far - all he bloody well does is shoot from distance.

[McGougan33]

What do you mean "last year"? I've been doing them since FM07!

I am actually enjoying my first proper forray into FM11, on my previous demo effort I only managed a couple of friendlies with Real Madrid. So far in this one with Lyon I have played three preseason friendlies and my opening Ligue 1 game against Monaco. My side were unimpressive in the three friendlies, but we beat Monaco 3-0 thanks to a double from Gomis and a penalty from Bastos.

I have enjoyed coming up with a tactic, and love the Lyon youth players this year. I've got to say though, I hate Yoann Gourcuff thus far - all he bloody well does is shoot from distance.

Well since i only really posted since last year

I managed to cure his long shots, with telling him to reduce it, then telling him when he is one on one with the keeper to lob him!

[McGougan33]

Novillo is really just amazing also, well worth developing!

[soli]

Hi folks,

It's been a long time since I have come back here. I have finally installed the full game and started a game with Lyon. I think this will be my first game since FM 09. This has always been a great thread and will be expecting lots of help from you guys.

I have just sorted out the staff and training schedules. The team looks strong on paper so will not try making huge changes. The transfer budget is pretty meagre and hopefully it will get a boost before the January window. If that happens will try and get Mexes if still available. Are there any great French youngsters worth buying?

Have started tinkering with the tactics. God knows how much time that will take since there's so much to tinker with. Will try and give updates once the matches begin.

[Purefun]

About the staff guys: who did you dump and who did you get in?

Ooh and welcome soli.

[Unitedsi]

First of all Welcome mate, Secondly i love the first comment, see chaps now thats respect

Excellent results there mate, the only thing im not so keen on is the amount of transfers done over 48 months ( unless your only doing this for the first season ) as believe me it comes back to bite you in the ass, that and wages combined put me 30 mil in the red in the 3rd season so be careful

Well, I got comletely ignored when I posted in the Man Utd thread (they are always my first go at the game every year) so it's nice to come into this one where people are actually friendly and helpful!

I'm not normally keen on doing the transfers over that period of time but you're right, I'm only doing that for the 1st season. As it stands my balance isn't dropping so I'm comfortable with it for now. I'll now only be looking to spend whatever I earn from the CL/player sales as I have a full team of young players waiting in the wings.

[Unitedsi]

Welcome and good luck.

Nice signings. Good sells.

Great results so far.

We like long posts.

Gervinho seems to be ace though.

Didn't play too much last night but I have I've ended up with egg on my face over Gervinho. I didn't think that I'd get him with Barca, Chelsea and Milan all among the bidders and then he goes and signs for Aston Villa! Probably should've gone for him but I really want to look after my finances. Happily, Briand has got 4 in 4 since then so I'm not too disappointed.

Beat l'OM 2-0 away and I'm on a run of wins despite needing extra time to beat 3rd division Guingamp in the Cup (went 1-0 down after 88 mins but equalised after 89 and won 3-1 AET). Also knocked Montpellier out of the Cup and their manager had a go at me in the press. I was feeling a bit moody after a long day at work so I spoke to the press and said he won't be bringing success to that club. When the news story popped up it quoted me as saying "there is more chance of finding life on Mars than him winning anything", which cheered me up no end.

Only other developments are that I've got Werder Bremen in the CL 2nd round and that Lisandro wants to leave for a bigger club after being praised by Gaurdiola, I've told him to stay for now and we'll match his ambitions. Barca only offered £6.5m so I didn't want to let him go, but I've got the scouts working overtime trying to find a summer replacement!

[Purefun]

6.5 mil for mr. Sexy, what a cheap offer from Barca.

[tomtuck01]

I managed to cure his long shots, with telling him to reduce it, then telling him when he is one on one with the keeper to lob him!

I seem to have solved my problem by playing him [Gourcuff] in the AML position. He now isn't in positions to shoot as often, and has started creating more goals. Also means that I dont have to decide whether to pick him or Miralem Pjanic now because I can fit them both in the team.

I hope I find things this simple when I eventually get the new game.

[Unitedsi]

6.5 mil for mr. Sexy, what a cheap offer from Barca.

I always find it hard to sell players for decent fees, I'm constantly surprised when I read on these forums that players have been sold for lots of money. I'm hoping that someone like Dzeko becomes unhappy and wants a move so I can get them cheap and then I won't be so concerned when I inevitably have to let my player go more cheaply than I would like! More of a worry perhaps is that Bayern want Lloris and Atletico Madrid want Pjanic.

[McGougan33]

Hi folks,

It's been a long time since I have come back here. I have finally installed the full game and started a game with Lyon. I think this will be my first game since FM 09. This has always been a great thread and will be expecting lots of help from you guys.

I have just sorted out the staff and training schedules. The team looks strong on paper so will not try making huge changes. The transfer budget is pretty meagre and hopefully it will get a boost before the January window. If that happens will try and get Mexes if still available. Are there any great French youngsters worth buying?

Have started tinkering with the tactics. God knows how much time that will take since there's so much to tinker with. Will try and give updates once the matches begin.

Welcome Soli

Purefun I will give you my staff list next time i head on FM

[McGougan33]

I always find it hard to sell players for decent fees, I'm constantly surprised when I read on these forums that players have been sold for lots of money. I'm hoping that someone like Dzeko becomes unhappy and wants a move so I can get them cheap and then I won't be so concerned when I inevitably have to let my player go more cheaply than I would like! More of a worry perhaps is that Bayern want Lloris and Atletico Madrid want Pjanic.

It is quite hard at first, Selling to me seems harder than buying in this, I still havent managed to sell Gomis yet, because i wont let him go for anything less than 14.5 mil

[McGougan33]

I seem to have solved my problem by playing him [Gourcuff] in the AML position. He now isn't in positions to shoot as often, and has started creating more goals. Also means that I dont have to decide whether to pick him or Miralem Pjanic now because I can fit them both in the team.

I hope I find things this simple when I eventually get the new game.

Nice one tuck, so are you playing Bastos at all?

[JanW87]

Started a game with Lyon and I enjoy it already Only played 3 friendlies, but I think this is going to be a long game. Sold Makoun and Gomis and bought two talented French youngsters (Nampalys Mendy and Terence Makengo, both from Monaco) and also bought Fazio. Terminated the loan from Diakhate. Looking for an extra striker for the squad to fill in when Lopez needs rest or is injured. Belfodil is a wonderful talent, but I can't rely on him alone, so will need to sign another striker. Have a transfer budget of 7M and was thinking of Kadlec, but I don't think he is the one I should be looking for, especially since he is a talent and there already is enough talent in the team for the striker position. You guys have a suggestion for me perhaps?

[Ty]

I see many tumbleweeds in this thread

[Gilly777]

Ok, Hello everyone enjoyed the thread so far a very good OP McGougan33.

Ive decided to this year play my usual Sevilla game while also playing a Lyon game (Playing Lyon first though for a while).

It is quite hard at first, Selling to me seems harder than buying in this, I still havent managed to sell Gomis yet, because i wont let him go for anything less than 14.5 mil

I would love to sell Gomis for half of that but always have trouble selling players for good amounts.

Welcome Soli

Purefun I will give you my staff list next time i head on FM

I added a few coaches and am also attempting to bring in 1 or 2 scouts, I only really got rid of 1 coach and 1 of the 2 assistant managers (Not sure what 2 are needed for).

Anyway i have only played 2 friendlies so far winning both comfortably, Transfers have been tough with the new agent feature. Had Mexes, Santa Cruz and Almedia all asking for massive wages and huge agent fees which i just could not squeeze into my tight transfer fee/wage bill.

With the 3 million pound i have been given i have bought Fazio for an astonishing 500k, Only area i want to improve for now is a backup striker but will have to sell Gomis first to free up some funds.

[Purefun]

Started a game with Lyon and I enjoy it already Only played 3 friendlies, but I think this is going to be a long game. Sold Makoun and Gomis and bought two talented French youngsters (Nampalys Mendy and Terence Makengo, both from Monaco) and also bought Fazio. Terminated the loan from Diakhate. Looking for an extra striker for the squad to fill in when Lopez needs rest or is injured. Belfodil is a wonderful talent, but I can't rely on him alone, so will need to sign another striker. Have a transfer budget of 7M and was thinking of Kadlec, but I don't think he is the one I should be looking for, especially since he is a talent and there already is enough talent in the team for the striker position. You guys have a suggestion for me perhaps?

Gervinho .

[soli]

So the Transfer Window has finally ended. It was quite an uneventful one tbh. The only excitement was when Arsenal bought some young French players which no one has ever heard about. Chelsea splashed cash on Sissoko and Rami. That took away one of my CB targets . Anyhow I had decided not to make much changes and that is what happened. Here are my transfers:

INs - £525k

Federico Fazio : £525k

OUTs - £2.8M

Romain Miguet : Free

Rafik Boujedra : Free

Naby Sarr : Free

Enzo Reale : Loan

Sebastian Faure : Loan Fee £50k

Said Mehamba : Loan Fee £50k

Harry Novilo : Loan Fee £300k

Thomas Fontaine : Loan

Ousmane N'Diaye : Loan Fee £100k

Maxime Gonalons : Loan Fee £500k

Cesar Delgado : £1.8M to Man City

Also terminated the loan of Diakhate so salvaging the spiralling wage costs. All the loans above are also 100% paid by the other teams so that too helped.

I won the friendlies comfortably but the performances were nothing inspiring. I attributed that to lack of familiarity with the tactic (which btw is a cool feature) and the absence of Lopez. Also a lot of players are new so team is still gelling together. I have played 4 matches till now in the league. I have won all of them but have done so by 1 goal margins. Having a bit of trouble banging the goals in.

The tactic I am playing with utilizes a DM, a box-to-box midfielder, an attacking playmaker, two inside forwards and one advaced forward. I have just come up with the control tactic. Actually was so keen to play the game that decided would alter that tactic according to match situation. I have tinkered a bit with the default settings but can't make them score yet. They are not completely familiar with the tactic yet and maybe the team is gelling together. Anyhow all suggestions are welcome

[Purefun]

Who did you loan Gonalons too?

[Purefun]

Btw I'm already the 30th June in my game.

Made about a zillion offers for scouts, coaches, ass. managers, free players and Lukaku. Favourite time of the season is the off season.

Also changed some fixtures. Doing a tour in Japan.

Also asked for another merchandising club. Going to cancel some feeders aswell, need to think which ones though.

Tactics are set and still fiddling with the training.

[...Eternal Sin...]

Purefun can you upload for me your save game?

[JanW87]

Thanks for the advice Purefun, will look at Gervinho when I'm back home. I also made an offer for Nolan Roux.

What tactics do most of you play with? I created a 451 (read this topic and seemed the best formation for them). So the defense is pretty basic, with two central defenders and two full backs. The midfield with a DM anchor man (Toulalan), two MC's, one as playmaker (Gourcuff) and the other as supporting central midfielder (Kallström). The attack is the part I'm still puzzling with. The AML is a winger (Bastos) and the AMR is Briand, but not sure how to play him. As a winger or as an inside forward? The lone striker will be Lopez, but still not sure on the role I should give him. Any advice is welcome!

[soli]

Who did you loan Gonalons too?

Werder Bremen

Also thinking of paying some attention to better staff and scouts. Up till now I have signed Vincenzo Pincolini as a fitness coach. Any other suitable staff targets are welcome

[Unitedsi]

Thanks for the advice Purefun, will look at Gervinho when I'm back home. I also made an offer for Nolan Roux.

What tactics do most of you play with? I created a 451 (read this topic and seemed the best formation for them). So the defense is pretty basic, with two central defenders and two full backs. The midfield with a DM anchor man (Toulalan), two MC's, one as playmaker (Gourcuff) and the other as supporting central midfielder (Kallström). The attack is the part I'm still puzzling with. The AML is a winger (Bastos) and the AMR is Briand, but not sure how to play him. As a winger or as an inside forward? The lone striker will be Lopez, but still not sure on the role I should give him. Any advice is welcome!

That's pretty much the exact tactic I've used and it's worked really well for me. I have the AML and AMR set to Wingers and support. I have them on mixed in the "cross from" instruction rather than byline or deep and also have the general instructions as "drill crosses". One thing I've had is quite a lot of goals from far post finishes by one winger after a cross from the other. They also still cut in side and shoot regularly (more than I would have thought from the instructions I give them) and get in behind the full back after through balls from the playmakers through balls. With Lopez or Roux as a single striker I've got the best results as an advanced striker with attack as the setting. In a couple of games I have actually used Lopez as the AML with these settings and he's got 3 goals in those 2 games.

[Unitedsi]

Werder Bremen

Also thinking of paying some attention to better staff and scouts. Up till now I have signed Vincenzo Pincolini as a fitness coach. Any other suitable staff targets are welcome

I got Prosinecki as one of my new coaches, he's good for shooting and ball control, quite cheap wages and not attached at the start. Probably don't need another fitness coach now but I got a fella whose name I cannot remember from Tours in Ligue 2 I think, who has 20 for fitness coaching, gives you 4.5* in either aerobic or strength and costs very little in compensation. Bierhoff as a scout, he's not attached at the start.

[Purefun]

Purefun can you upload for me your save game?

Why? And how should I do that?

Thanks for the advice Purefun, will look at Gervinho when I'm back home. I also made an offer for Nolan Roux.

What tactics do most of you play with? I created a 451 (read this topic and seemed the best formation for them). So the defense is pretty basic, with two central defenders and two full backs. The midfield with a DM anchor man (Toulalan), two MC's, one as playmaker (Gourcuff) and the other as supporting central midfielder (Kallström). The attack is the part I'm still puzzling with. The AML is a winger (Bastos) and the AMR is Briand, but not sure how to play him. As a winger or as an inside forward? The lone striker will be Lopez, but still not sure on the role I should give him. Any advice is welcome!

My tactics were made by batty.

Werder Bremen

Also thinking of paying some attention to better staff and scouts. Up till now I have signed Vincenzo Pincolini as a fitness coach. Any other suitable staff targets are welcome

I hope he plays there.

[...Eternal Sin...]

Purefun you may upload this on mediafire or other site and give me a link. i will be happy to see how you do all preperations to season. i always have problems in begin the game and want to see how others doing start the game what.

[...Eternal Sin...]

Purefun maybe you put link to your tactic and we be able to try this on lyon team or other team

[soli]

I hope he plays there.

I hope so too.

Just had my first game of the Champions League against Rangers away. A red card to Gourcuff in the fifth minute almost squashed my hopes but my team rallied around and finally won 3-2. Hope it's a sign of things to come.

[McGougan33]

I see many tumbleweeds in this thread

Beat it you Pompous Pompeyian

[McGougan33]

So the Transfer Window has finally ended. It was quite an uneventful one tbh. The only excitement was when Arsenal bought some young French players which no one has ever heard about. Chelsea splashed cash on Sissoko and Rami. That took away one of my CB targets . Anyhow I had decided not to make much changes and that is what happened. Here are my transfers:

INs - £525k

Federico Fazio : £525k

OUTs - £2.8M

Romain Miguet : Free

Rafik Boujedra : Free

Naby Sarr : Free

Enzo Reale : Loan

Sebastian Faure : Loan Fee £50k

Said Mehamba : Loan Fee £50k

Harry Novilo : Loan Fee £300k

Thomas Fontaine : Loan

Ousmane N'Diaye : Loan Fee £100k

Maxime Gonalons : Loan Fee £500k

Cesar Delgado : £1.8M to Man City

Also terminated the loan of Diakhate so salvaging the spiralling wage costs. All the loans above are also 100% paid by the other teams so that too helped.

I won the friendlies comfortably but the performances were nothing inspiring. I attributed that to lack of familiarity with the tactic (which btw is a cool feature) and the absence of Lopez. Also a lot of players are new so team is still gelling together. I have played 4 matches till now in the league. I have won all of them but have done so by 1 goal margins. Having a bit of trouble banging the goals in.

The tactic I am playing with utilizes a DM, a box-to-box midfielder, an attacking playmaker, two inside forwards and one advaced forward. I have just come up with the control tactic. Actually was so keen to play the game that decided would alter that tactic according to match situation. I have tinkered a bit with the default settings but can't make them score yet. They are not completely familiar with the tactic yet and maybe the team is gelling together. Anyhow all suggestions are welcome

With your tactic, how narrow etc are you playing? And also are you playing with 2 cms then?

[McGougan33]

Thanks for the advice Purefun, will look at Gervinho when I'm back home. I also made an offer for Nolan Roux.

What tactics do most of you play with? I created a 451 (read this topic and seemed the best formation for them). So the defense is pretty basic, with two central defenders and two full backs. The midfield with a DM anchor man (Toulalan), two MC's, one as playmaker (Gourcuff) and the other as supporting central midfielder (Kallström). The attack is the part I'm still puzzling with. The AML is a winger (Bastos) and the AMR is Briand, but not sure how to play him. As a winger or as an inside forward? The lone striker will be Lopez, but still not sure on the role I should give him. Any advice is welcome!

I play Briand as an out and out winger! Lisandro i would use as a DLP so you have someone to knock the ball down to your cms, so they can stroke it to the wingers, then run into the box!

[McGougan33]

Why? And how should I do that?

My tactics were made by batty.

I hope he plays there.

Wonder if they were made by me then

[McGougan33]

Purefun you may upload this on mediafire or other site and give me a link. i will be happy to see how you do all preperations to season. i always have problems in begin the game and want to see how others doing start the game what.

You wont see how he has done the preparations for the season by him uploading the game, just ask in here mate, you will get some good info

What part of preseason do you struggle with? First of all i always identify the weak parts of my team ( In Lyons case it is RW and CB ), then secondly i look at my coaches, see who is good enough where and i then strengthen the coaching team ( Always put Coaches as just that, never put Youth Coach, as then they are only limited to the youth team, and the same with 1st Team Coaches) - Now there is a slight problem with this as your board will only allow you a set amount of coaches in your first season, so you are going to have to sack a few, and try and ask for some more!

I would also then look at getting a merchandising club in to boost revenue for the league!

After that i would identify my youth targets, and players whos contract runs out either in 6 months or at the end of the season

Hope this helps

[McGougan33]

Alright so in terms of coaches i have

Patrick Collott set to all 9 training regimes

Joel Bats on shot stopping - 4 star

Sonny Anderson on attacking - 4 star

Gian Nicola Bisciotti on strength - 4.5 star

Andy Renshaw on aerobic - 4.5 star

Jose Segura on shooting - 4 star

Robert Prosinecki on Ball control - 4.5 star

Eamon Mulvey on all 9 ( he is however 4 star on ball control and shooting )

John Cooke on tactics - 4 star

Mario Giuffrida on attacking - 4 star

Paraiba on shot stopping - 4 star

Mauricio Pellegrino on Defending - 4.5 star

Salvino Damiao on handling - 4.5 star

Jean Luc Abard on all 9

Warren Joyce on all 9 ( he is a 4.5 star on defence though )

Now you might notice that some of them i have double of, but this is because i use some of them for motivation, level of discipline, and working with youngsters and mental coaching!

I am going to look for some more 4.5 staff, as i havent found many 5 star coaches

[soli]

With your tactic, how narrow etc are you playing? And also are you playing with 2 cms then?

Philosophy is fluid and starting strategy is control. All others have been kept default for these two selections. I have just now started experimenting with closing down as press more. And yes I am playing with 2 CMs, 1 DM, 2 inside forwards and one advanced forward.

EDIT : Vincenzo Pincolini as a fitness coach has 5 stars if you devote him solely to Strength or Aerobic

[McGougan33]

Philosophy is fluid and starting strategy is control. All others have been kept default for these two selections. I have just now started experimenting with closing down as press more. And yes I am playing with 2 CMs, 1 DM, 2 inside forwards and one advanced forward.

EDIT : Vincenzo Pincolini as a fitness coach has 5 stars if you devote him solely to Strength or Aerobic

Try switching from control to attacking, i dont use a dm i use an amc, but i always start with fluid and attacking! I also have closing down as press more!

If you are struggling to score, how and where are your attacks breaking down?

[soli]

Try switching from control to attacking, i dont use a dm i use an amc, but i always start with fluid and attacking! I also have closing down as press more!

If you are struggling to score, how and where are your attacks breaking down?

Well that would be too attacking for my liking. Anyhow I have started watching the entire game instead of just key highlights. That way I am able to give out suitable instructions as well. Closing down as press more is working, I think. I also have a problem with possession so am experimenting with shorter passing. Will experiment with fluid and attacking next. I had kept the inside forwards on attack but they were not contributing much. Now have changed them to support so they are atleast creating chances for each other which is good. Another problem is that apart from Lopez none of the others have good finishing and fluff easy chances. Any how thanks for your help.

[McGougan33]

Well that would be too attacking for my liking. Anyhow I have started watching the entire game instead of just key highlights. That way I am able to give out suitable instructions as well. Closing down as press more is working, I think. I also have a problem with possession so am experimenting with shorter passing. Will experiment with fluid and attacking next. I had kept the inside forwards on attack but they were not contributing much. Now have changed them to support so they are atleast creating chances for each other which is good. Another problem is that apart from Lopez none of the others have good finishing and fluff easy chances. Any how thanks for your help.

Possesion wise, shorter passing and a narrower formation will boost it considerably, I would maybe also just have one Inside forward, and one Winger see if that makes a difference?

[Purefun]

Alright so in terms of coaches i have

Patrick Collott set to all 9 training regimes

Joel Bats on shot stopping - 4 star

Sonny Anderson on attacking - 4 star

Gian Nicola Bisciotti on strength - 4.5 star

Andy Renshaw on aerobic - 4.5 star

Jose Segura on shooting - 4 star

Robert Prosinecki on Ball control - 4.5 star

Eamon Mulvey on all 9 ( he is however 4 star on ball control and shooting )

John Cooke on tactics - 4 star

Mario Giuffrida on attacking - 4 star

Paraiba on shot stopping - 4 star

Mauricio Pellegrino on Defending - 4.5 star

Salvino Damiao on handling - 4.5 star

Jean Luc Abard on all 9

Warren Joyce on all 9 ( he is a 4.5 star on defence though )

Now you might notice that some of them i have double of, but this is because i use some of them for motivation, level of discipline, and working with youngsters and mental coaching!

I am going to look for some more 4.5 staff, as i havent found many 5 star coaches

Iirc staff can become better too, so it could be that those 4 star coaches become 4.5 coaches in a season or two.

[McGougan33]

Yes they can, i have had some improve!

[Snoop Robbie Rob]

Currently in October on my Lyon season: I've won most games, not lost any yet but had a few draws. I can't for the life of me get Gourcuff and Lopez performing. I've had one good game from Gourcuff where he scored a hat-trick away at Bordeaux, but other than that, he's been gash. Lisandro, similarly, has scored one goal in 6 apps, and that goal came from his sole substitute appearance. Gomis has proven, at least before his horror tackle, that he was a better striker.

I use Lopez as a lone striker with Gourcuff behind him, but it simply isn't working at the moment, I can't get my team controlling games, they're so wayward, particularly when they defend off the ball. (Will switching my marking effect this?)

I'm enjoying my game so far, but my side constantly feel like they're second best, with only the Bordeaux game away where they've put in a 'proper' performance, everything else has been sloppy and scrappy.