Off Topic Thread: Hey lurkers, post ffs!!

[JD nawrat]

Mancini has had a pretty easy run of things in his managerial career.

Managed the biggest and richest (at the time) team in Italy, then the equivalent in England, and now again in Turkey.

He has a decent Plan A, but no Plan B. He'll win stuff with Galatasaray, but not through judgement.

If you cast your mind back to City's PL win, how many times did you think "that's inspired", and how many times did you think "player x has rescued them there"?

I think you're being a bit unfair on Mancini here - wahey Mancini defender to the rescue etc - because there was plenty of times where we looked out of a game and Mancini would bring on de Jong for Tevez to cries of "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?" but then we'd go on to win games because he knew exactly what he was doing. He got incredible results out of Yaya Touré who he frequently moved from defensive midfielder to attacking midfielder, only for him to go on and have key roles in our victories.

Not suggesting that makes him a mastermind tactician but there was always plenty of praise being bandied about at the time when de Jong for Tevez was questioned but turned out to be a game changing, match winning substitution.

People are quick to forget that. Like I said, doesn't make him a great manager or tactician. I do feel you are being a bit harsh on him though. Yeah, "it's Man City they should be winning every game" etc but still.

[Cleon]

Pellegrini gets a lot of praise for his tactical side of the game yet if you look over his career he has as awful record against the big sides and struggles when playing them. He's lost at least 2 jobs due to this. I'm not saying he isn't a good manager because I do rate him but he does have issues with the bigger sides.

Yeah, "it's Man City they should be winning every game" etc but still.

Why would people assume this? I'd have thought that is something people associated with a big club tbh.

[tomtuck01]

They're not a big club. They're a small club who have bought a seat at the top table.

[Cleon]

Must win game for Sheff Utd at home to Crawley tonight.

[tomtuck01]

Reckon Weir might be gone if you don't?

[Cleon]

Reckon Weir might be gone if you don't?

Some fans want him gone, personally I hope he's given time because he really is the right man for the job. He's got us trying to play football and when it all clicks we'll be fine. Majority of fans agreed we'd write this season off while he shaped the squad and got them playing a new style yet those same people have now decided its not good enough and want us to hoof ball again. He'll come good, he's only had the squad he wanted for 2 games and there needs to be a settling in period. Sooner or later we are gonna hammer someone, its just a feeling I've got.

He's brilliant in interviews, you can't help but like him. Listen to this and you'll see what I mean http://audioboo.fm/boos/1638170-sheffield-united-manager-david-weir-previews-crawley-clash

[Falahk]

Mancini has had a pretty easy run of things in his managerial career.

Managed the biggest and richest (at the time) team in Italy, then the equivalent in England, and now again in Turkey.

He has a decent Plan A, but no Plan B. He'll win stuff with Galatasaray, but not through judgement.

If you cast your mind back to City's PL win, how many times did you think "that's inspired", and how many times did you think "player x has rescued them there"?

what do you make of his tenure at Fiorentina and Lazio then? two clubs that was practically bankrupt at the time (the former went bankrupt shortly after while the later one only just managed to escape the same fate with pay cuts for the playing staff and sale of star players)

[Cleon]

Was watching this and thought of you NF

[video=youtube;YrTe4b7Dces]

Peschisolido

[Nottingham Forest]

. We were extremely close . Clattenburg iirc was a grade a **** for sending Daws off in the first leg.

[RTHerringbone]

what do you make of his tenure at Fiorentina and Lazio then? two clubs that was practically bankrupt at the time (the former went bankrupt shortly after while the later one only just managed to escape the same fate with pay cuts for the playing staff and sale of star players)

I'm not so hot on that era, but understand he won the Coppa Italia with both.

Aren't most Italian clubs pretty much financially stuffed? If so, doesn't that level the playing field a bit?

The best thing I can say about Mancini is that he has nice hair and he wears a scarf well.

[tomtuck01]

No Liverpool. Just NO!

[Cleon]

No Liverpool. Just NO!

Dalglish?

[tomtuck01]

Dalglish?

Quite so. I appreciate he's a club legend for what he did during his playing career and first spell as manager. But all he has been in recent years is a damaging influence, (Roy Hodgson's era springs to mind and him hanging around like a bad smell in the background), and to the clubs reputation over the Luis Suarez racism thing.

As much as I go on about them, (I really don't like their fans inparticular, and I won't even get into Hillsborough/Heysel - lets just say I fail to fully believe the report about the former), they are great club, but by once again bringing Dalglish back into the fold they have done nothing but made themselves look like a laughing stock to anyone but Liverpool fans and the pro Dalglish media, be it national or Merseyside based.

[Cleon]

It does seem a strange move and all it does is undermine managers in the same way Johann Cruijff does.

[tomtuck01]

Sorry to those of you who follow me on Twitter as you will have seen me tweet very similar stuff already, but I thought I'd plonk it in here aswell to maybe kickstart some chatter;

Talk is that Adnan Januzaj won't be able to play for England for years, if it is even possible. Why are we looking at him? We should be developing our own kids, not nicking from elsewhere.

Jack Wilshere, Ross Barkley, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlian, Andros Townsend and Nick Powell to name just five good young English midfielders/attacking nidfielders. All of them are 22 or younger. Why are we looking at converting foreigners?

Aftr the 2010 World Cup alot of foolish people like Harry Redknapp and our very own manager at the time, Fabio Capello, were lambasting the fact that there weren't enough talented youngsters coming through. I really beg to differ, and that is why this talk about naturalising Januzaj is so annoying and dispiriting to me.

[RTHerringbone]

The Januzaj situation is weird.

If a Belgian kid who has made just three PL appearances is suddenly regarded as the solution to our international ineptitude, then we have big problems!

For what it's worth, I don't think that a country of our size does a good enough job of identifying and training kids properly.

Yes, we have the likes of your mate Wilshere, The Ox, Townsend, Powell and Barkley, but why aren't there more?

The problem could be the short-termism at the top level. Managers are under such pressure that they can't really afford to play the likes of Nick Powell in PL games, so he gets shipped out on loan and millions is spent elsewhere on foreign imports in midfield.

We need to go down the route that the German FA took after Euro 2000 and make fundamental changes to the squad registration rules to weed out loopholes that encourage PL sides to sign up 15/16 year olds from abroad who qualify as "homegrown" after a few years in the UK.

[tomtuck01]

The Bundesliga doesn't have any squad registration rules. Well, except that under 17's can't play.

The thing is, there are more; Ravel Morrison, Will Hughes, James Ward-Prowse. Jordan Henderson and Jake Livermore are both just 23. There's loads of players out there, the problem is people just look at the top clubs and dismiss everyone else. For instance, Livermore has been very good this year, but it's for Hull, so people don't pay attention.

I've just named midfielders, but there are other areas that have lovely talent. Aston Villa have got some good young defenders, and Southampton are producing players all the time that get chances in the first team. Calum Chambers is just 18 and has started at rightback this season.

The issue is that it's terribly English to see these players aren't at the top clubs of the time and dismiss them.

[RTHerringbone]

I was convinced that there were stipulations that x of the match day squad needed to be eligible to play for Germany.

Perhaps that relates to Youth academy intake instead.

[Cleon]

Sheffield United have the future England keepers for the next 10-20 years. George Long and George Willis. Long could rival Hart now and that's no lie.

The Adnan Januzaj situation is weird though because Almunia/Arteta were turned down by our FA because they didn't hold a British passport before the age of 18 and said they wouldn't be considered. Yet now they've changed and have approached Januzaj?

[higgins]

I'm not so hot on that era, but understand he won the Coppa Italia with both.

Aren't most Italian clubs pretty much financially stuffed? If so, doesn't that level the playing field a bit?

The best thing I can say about Mancini is that he has nice hair and he wears a scarf well.

Agree about scarf and hair, surely he's stylish and a bit lucky, anyway winning the legue with citizens is a nice achievement, not sure Pellegrini could do the same.

I don't give him any credit for his Italian scudetti, for obvious reasons.

[RTHerringbone]

Agree about scarf and hair, surely he's stylish and a bit lucky, anyway winning the legue with citizens is a nice achievement, not sure Pellegrini could do the same.

It's an odd season already, so Pellegrini could do it.

I think the lowest points total for some time will win the league, all I am sure of is that it won't be Liverpool.

[tomtuck01]

The Adnan Januzaj situation is weird though because Almunia/Arteta were turned down by our FA because they didn't hold a British passport before the age of 18 and said they wouldn't be considered. Yet now they've changed and have approached Januzaj?

He simply can't play for us unless we get the home nations agreement ripped up. It's ratified by FIFA and they're hrdly going to just tear up because we ask nicely for one Belgium kid.

This is what is annoying me - we should be concerntrating on the talent we have, of which there is much more than people "in the game" would like us to believe.

[Cleon]

He simply can't play for us unless we get the home nations agreement ripped up. It's ratified by FIFA and they're hrdly going to just tear up because we ask nicely for one Belgium kid.

This is what is annoying me - we should be concerntrating on the talent we have, of which there is much more than people "in the game" would like us to believe.

There are loads of quality youths in the leagues out side of the Prem who can easily make the step up if given a chance. But instead they'll be ignored because their values are too high so clubs are put off them and they'll not make the England squad. It still irks me that you have to play for one of the top teams to be an England regular regardless of how good someones form might be.

[RTHerringbone]

I still think the German model is the way forward, even though I got my squad registration stuff mixed up.

This article is packed with good stuff: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jul/04/germany-youth-development-england

A critical point (outside the article) is this:

In Euro 96, Germany won the final after beating England at the Semi-Final stage

In Euro 2000, Germany and England went out at the group stage.

In spite of success 4 years earlier, Germany made huge infrastructure overhauls to react to Euro 2000, including the building of over 120 "talent centres" across the country, all staffed full time by qualified coaches.

In spite of failure for almost 50 years, what have the FA done? FA.

We've built St. Georges Park - what is it's purpose? Why have one centre of excellence when you can have over 120 smaller training camps?

We have good young players, but if they aren't all getting enough game time, then we have squad registration issues.

The problem is that the FA and Premier League have different interests. The Premier League wants to perpetuate their myth that the Premier League is the best in the world, and to do this we'll keep recruiting excellent foreign players whilst stifling the development of good players, who could become great if given the chance.

[tomtuck01]

I actually think the registration rule in place creates a huge problem in that clubs won't sell young talent as they help them meet the "home grown" criteriaand thus keep them even though they've no intention of playing them. As such, you get youngsters ridiculously over priced, (Will Hughes valued at £10million+ for crying out loud), and agents been able to hold clubs to ransom as they know the player is of value merely because he's home grown.

Case in point is Ruben Loftus-Cheek at Chelsea. 17/18 years old and yet to play for them, yet is on £20,000 p/w. Puts Championship clubs off wanting to loan him as some can barely afford 25% of that.

[RTHerringbone]

What can be done then?

There's merit in:

1) limiting the number of kids that can be brought into a club each year at youth intake

2) stipulating that 75% of them must be eligible to play for England

This would mean that more young English or at least British kids get a higher standard of training, which should in turn result in more better prepared kids being given more opportunities.

However, if the First XI is still constructed with short term competitiveness in mind, and this affects the manager's selection policy, these kids will still stagnate.

For me, there has to be a stipulation at the first team squad level too, which means that x% of your 25 man squad must be homegrown.

Short term pain, long term gain.

[Cleon]

Will Hughes is worth £10 million if Zaha went for £15 mill imo. The thing about prices for these kind of players isn't the agents its more the actual chairmen of the club. This kind of money gives them breathing space for a few seasons or gives them a crack at promotion. Especially as these clubs have the Salary Cost Management Protocol (SCMP) to abide by now.

You can't really use the Ruben Loftus-Cheek example to prove the point either. The reason he's on 20k is so he didn't go to Bayern or Barca as they wanted him. Barca even made an approach for him to take him to La Masia.

I agree prices are inflated and wages ridiculous though. But it's no different to how all the Prem sides end up with all the best talent. You poach them from little clubs for peanuts and offer them a wage clubs outside the Prem can't compete with. But when a big clubs comes in for them while at a Prem club you have no option but to either lose him or pay him an higher wage.

People only started realising now how bad it is because for years it was the Prem clubs doing all the poaching and under using the players. But now foreign club are poaching from the Prem clubs everyone takes notice and doesn't like it. (slightly drifting off topic but still it needed saying)

Matt Whitehouse on twitter is worth a follow for some of his youth articles on how they can fix the English system starting at grass roots. The only way it'll get fixed is by starting at the bottom though and everything need a total overall.

[RTHerringbone]

Matt Whitehouse on twitter is worth a follow for some of his youth articles on how they can fix the English system starting at grass roots. The only way it'll get fixed is by starting at the bottom though and everything need a total overall.

This is true.

I wanted to not like his book because he tweets so damn much, but it is actually very well written, very logical and very persuasive.

I just hope someone has given Greg Dyke a copy because he seems like someone who isn't afraid to shake the FA up a bit and push through some radical change.

[tomtuck01]

Well, I never argued that Zaha was worth the money paid for him.

Also the point about agents wasn't that they're driving prices up, (no directly anyway), but that they know the value of "home grown" status and can use that as a bargaining tool to get their client a higher wage at a young age, which in turn I believe puts off Championship clubs from looking to loan them in.

Fair enough the reference about Loftus-Cheek's high wage may have been wide of mark, but the point is still relevant.

[Nottingham Forest]

Sheffield United have the future England keepers for the next 10-20 years. George Long and George Willis. Long could rival Hart now and that's no lie.

The Adnan Januzaj situation is weird though because Almunia/Arteta were turned down by our FA because they didn't hold a British passport before the age of 18 and said they wouldn't be considered. Yet now they've changed and have approached Januzaj?

Don't forget Karl Darlow. Imo will be in the England next season. Such a good player. Will Hughes isn't all that imo either. Always does shockingly **** in Forest/Derby matches.

Oh and in regards to wages. Chalobah of Chelsea is on £30k-£35k a week ish. Chelsea are well known for paying their youngsters high wages though. They offered Patrick Bamford £10k a week.

[tomtuck01]

So to add another theory to yesterdays wee discussion is this;

Would us not qualifying for the World Cup be the best thing to happen to us in years?

It could be a real watershed moment for English football and could finally make those in the game REALLY sit up and take note? Another plus would be a probable cull of the last of the "Golden Generation", forcing us to move forward with the young, raw talents we do have.

Or would the manager just be blamed as per the norm and be sacked?

Discuss.

[RTHerringbone]

We'd do something short-sighted like sack the manager again.

The fella Cleon mentioned yesterday (Matt Whitehouse) wrote a book called The Way Forward. It's well worth a read, and hard to find anything to disagree with.

Basically, what he says, is what we need to do - better grassroots training by appropriately trained coaches being the critical first step.

Did you know, that in England, we have 10% of the number of trained football coaches that they have in France or Germany? Spain also way ahead of us.

[tomtuck01]

That's UEFA A and B licensed coaches. It's speculated that we have nearer 70,000 FA qualified level one and two coaches. Hardly a surprise that we'd be so pompous to come up with our own system.

Agree that we'd most likely be short sighted on the issue again and sack the manager. I personally hope that when Hodgson departs the manager role he is kept on in another capacity. And a decent step has been taken today with Glen Hoddle's appointment to the FA Commission.

[RTHerringbone]

Yeah, Glenn Hoddle has his detractors and has said some stupid things in his time, but he knows how to play football.

We need to kick out all the deadwood at the FA and get fresher people with the right way of thinking involved.

There's a stat about the FA that around a third of their key decision makers are 60+ and have been with the association for more than a decade - it is an Old Boy's Club.

[Cleon]

So to add another theory to yesterdays wee discussion is this;

Would us not qualifying for the World Cup be the best thing to happen to us in years?

It could be a real watershed moment for English football and could finally make those in the game REALLY sit up and take note? Another plus would be a probable cull of the last of the "Golden Generation", forcing us to move forward with the young, raw talents we do have.

Or would the manager just be blamed as per the norm and be sacked?

Discuss.

I think England should boycott the next world cup anyway due to FIFA moving it to summer it seems.

I actually think England have a good future at international level if we start giving people chances earlier in the national team. If you look back over the last 10-15 years the youngsters who actually got a chance early are the ones who became long-term players. We need a manager who starts picking people on form rather than what someone might have done in the past. If some English player is banging in 20 goals a season then you'd expect them to be in the England squad, its common sense but our managers lack this. Capello started well by dropping players but then did a u-turn when media got on his back.

The FA are trying though and tested a pilot coaching scheme recently and we have 16 of the best qualified coaches in the world. sixteen talented coaches who graduated from the first ever FA Elite Coaches’ Award. It's a great idea and those who was involved said it changed them for the better and got them thinking differntly. It's just going to take some time for more to get invited to take part etc,.

[RTHerringbone]

The FA are trying though and tested a pilot coaching scheme recently and we have 16 of the best qualified coaches in the world. sixteen talented coaches who graduated from the first ever FA Elite Coaches’ Award. It's a great idea and those who was involved said it changed them for the better and got them thinking differntly. It's just going to take some time for more to get invited to take part etc,.

That is good news. The hope now is that these coaches find employment (if they haven't already done so) and that the clubs who employ them are open-minded enough to allow those coaches to make changes (if needed) to the way that coaching is carried out at that club.

Like you say, it will take a fair amount of time to get enough coaches like this, and then to get them embedding a new, better coaching philosophy at clubs. When that happens, we will start to make progress. A World Cup by 2048 will do for me.

[Cleon]

That is good news. The hope now is that these coaches find employment (if they haven't already done so) and that the clubs who employ them are open-minded enough to allow those coaches to make changes (if needed) to the way that coaching is carried out at that club.

Like you say, it will take a fair amount of time to get enough coaches like this, and then to get them embedding a new, better coaching philosophy at clubs. When that happens, we will start to make progress. A World Cup by 2048 will do for me.

One of them now works with Watford under 16's and many of the others got top jobs too.

[Cleon]

NF are you ripping off my Laminas idea?

[AcidBurn]

NF are you ripping off my Laminas idea?

Haha, that's what I thought when I saw NF post about it!

I've just seen that Dario Gradi is on this FA commission thing about time really. I know he only manages a small club but he obviously knows his stuff.

[Nottingham Forest]

NF are you ripping off my Laminas idea?

Not intentionally. Are you doing from a managers point of view?

[Cleon]

Haha, that's what I thought when I saw NF post about it!

I've just seen that Dario Gradi is on this FA commission thing about time really. I know he only manages a small club but he obviously knows his stuff.

Is he? Good appointment imo. Smaller clubs need a voice.

Not intentionally. Are you doing from a managers point of view?

twitter is the manager and promoting articles etc. The website is to be run like a proper clubs website.

[Nottingham Forest]

I see, well I thought you were just doing a normal update from a club point of view on Twitter. If it is the same idea I shall not be doing it.

[tomtuck01]

I've just seen that Dario Gradi is on this FA commission thing about time really. I know he only manages a small club but he obviously knows his stuff.

Only about twenty years too late.

Is he? Good appointment imo. Smaller clubs need a voice.

The whole point is about where the England team is going and about youth development. It's not to do with him giving small clubs a voice.

[Cleon]

Only about twenty years too late.

The whole point is about where the England team is going and about youth development. It's not to do with him giving small clubs a voice.

Well it is. The small clubs are the ones where most of the future England team will come from. All you big clubs poach them at 14-17 years old from these lesser clubs. So it makes perfect sense that he is a voice for these clubs because its directly linked to the development of youth for England. The whole point in him being appointed is to assess development throughout all football levels and not just the EPL like has happened in the past. Having someone who is actually in touch with football on a wider scale is exactly a voice. He knows first hand what it takes and what the important ages are.

Too many people in football and on committees have no experience at the lower end of the scale and this is why England suffers. The focus needs to be shifted to the lower end and build from the bottom upwards not the top downwards.

[ssestig]

Well it is. The small clubs are the ones where most of the future England team will come from. All you big clubs poach them at 14-17 years old from these lesser clubs. So it makes perfect sense that he is a voice for these clubs because its directly linked to the development of youth for England. The whole point in him being appointed is to assess development throughout all football levels and not just the EPL like has happened in the past. Having someone who is actually in touch with football on a wider scale is exactly a voice. He knows first hand what it takes and what the important ages are.

Too many people in football and on committees have no experience at the lower end of the scale and this is why England suffers. The focus needs to be shifted to the lower end and build from the bottom upwards not the top downwards.

Exactly this.

[Cleon]

Weir's been sacked, Morgan in charge for Sunday's game. Clough or Russell Slade/Wilder to get job Monday imo

[Nottingham Forest]

Does anyone know how a mortgage works exactly. I have a rough idea but would like to know a little more if someone would care to give me some information.

I shall explain why I am asking this question for someone who is only 21. The reason being is, I want to be a property developer and have been thinking over the past few hours more about whether it would be realistically possible for me to do what I want to do in my current financial situation. I won't be discussing this though.

Ta people .

[tomtuck01]

Well I very much doubt you'd earn enough.

[fuzzrab]

I am not really sure of the in and outs of it in the UK compared to Aus. When we got our mortgage we went to Mortgage choice over here. They are basically a company that will sit down with you and explain everything for you. Like what kind of loan you would get based on your financial situation and which bank/credit union (not sure if you have these in the UK) was the best option for you.

A quick google search and they seem to be a UK company as well. heres the lnk.

http://www.themortgagechoice.uk.com/

Over here the service was free as the banks pay them basically.

EDIT: I would advise one thing though. Whatever you do dont get a 100% mortgage. try to save up at least 10% of the value of the mortgage you can get/told you can get. I know it will be difficult but if you cant save 10% of the total value then you will most likely struggle paying the full thing off.

[Nottingham Forest]

Well I very much doubt you'd earn enough.

Earn enough from what? Property developing or to get a mortgage?

Cheers fuzzrab. Will check that out. Just wanted some first hand experience at how they actually worked from normal people.