Football Manager 2013 Video Blogs: FM Classic 5 - Unlockables

[spankie]

That's a very good point I hadn't thought of actually. Kind of cheapens the leaderboard feature.

I take it you missed the part in the videos where Miles said that using unlockables would have an effect on you leaderboard score, i.e. knock it down. So the more you "cheat" using the unlockables the lower in comparison your score would be compared to people who have not "cheated"

If there is nothing wrong at all with cheating, and people paying money to do so. Why are they are restricted it to just FMC and not implementing it in FM Full?

I don't recall you saying anything bad about the editor that comes with the game. That is an easy tool to cheat as you can give the club you want to manage lots of money and better players and improve the players already at the club.

So basically with the editor SI have always enabled cheating in the full FM game, the only difference between that and the unlockables in FMC is that now you have the chance to do an easy cheat that you can either unlock through gameplay or buy and perform once your game is running.

SI are now more open about the cheating that you can do and I suspect that is what has got your knickers in a twist.

The big advantage about this "cheating" in FMC is that it will be obvious to everyone that you have cheated as your leaderboad score would be lower then it would otherwise be.

[CaptainPlanet]

My knickers are far from in a twist, in fact the posts aimed at my opinion have been far more aggressive and unnecessary than anything that I've posted myself.

But to re-iterate my point again, I go back to the first post I made as it still sums up my feelings on the matter. Any posts I've made since have pretty much just been a re-hash of the same thing but some people seem unable to understand my point of view. And that's fine, but I don't know why people need to keep banging on about it, it's not like I'm going through the thread ripping apart how other people feel about it.

The outrage would obviously be bigger if it wasn't just in FMC, and was in FM Full. Any pay-to-win micro-transactions in games usually aren't given a good reception.

The video and the options themselves are basically saying that it's ok to cheat in FMC (and we'll charge you to do so), but not in FM Full. As someone who was purely buying the game because of FMC, I'm only concerned with what's in that gamemode. As such it is the equivalent to me of pay-to-win micro-transactions being in the full version.

Sorry, but I'm voting with my wallet here.

[Smurf]

Making people pay extra for player stats to be visible in mickey mouse FM mode, and people still argue that SI arent simply embarking on an exercise around nickel and diming their customers this year, lol!

A real manager wouldn't know every stat of every player. Fog of War is a silly term for it though. It should really just be "Realistic Stat Knowledge".

The only way you can know a players stats is to scout them a few times.

Having an unlockable to unlock all the stats of every player is a good unlockable, it makes the FMC more challenging by not allowing it in the first place - which is realistic.

[dazbowski]

A real manager wouldn't know every stat of every player. Fog of War is a silly term for it though. It should really just be "Realistic Stat Knowledge".

The only way you can know a players stats is to scout them a few times.

Having an unlockable to unlock all the stats of every player is a good unlockable, it makes the FMC more challenging by not allowing it in the first place - which is realistic.

Except FMC is supposed to save my time not take up more of it.

[rimm!]

If I unlock a 'cheat', say the one where i win the manager of the year award 3 times in a row, is that cheat available for all FMC saves, or just that one ive unlocked it on?

and same if I pay to unlock it, is that only available in that save or can i use it in all my FMC games once ive paid for it?

And then same again for the boosting bank balance, although that looks from the video like you have to pay everytime if you want to do that.

[Peter G]

That video was the worst thing I've seen associated with SI or an SI product.

FM13 was going to be the first FM I've bought since FM09, purely because of the FMC mode. Now, there's not a chance in hell I will.

You're not going to be it because of one option that you can turn off and don't have to use that won't affect your game at all in any way?

Doesn't make sense to me.

[CaptainPlanet]

You're not going to be it because of one option that you can turn off and don't have to use that won't affect your game at all in any way?

Doesn't make sense to me.

I don't want to financially support a company with that strategy because I think it's damaging to the industry. It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

[Miles Jacobson]

That's a very good point I hadn't thought of actually. Kind of cheapens the leaderboard feature.

Except we clearly stated in the leaderboards video that people who use unlockables will have their scores penalised.

[Miles Jacobson]

Woulve love to know the reasoning behind why you've gone that way, normal FM + instant result would be the sweet spot for time spent for me.

Because FM is meant to be a simulation. And I don't know of any managers who voluntarily ask their assistant to look after the team on match days whilst they don't attend the match.

[Miles Jacobson]

I don't want to financially support a company with that strategy because I think it's damaging to the industry. It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

Unfortunately for you, you won't be playing (m)any more games in the future then, Mr.Planet. There aren't many titles nowadays that don't have some for of DLC available, mainly because there are a lot of customers out there who really want it.

We've been incredibly careful to ensure that it doesn't affect those that don't want it negatively, which is a lot more than most do. But if it's a moral standpoint for you, there is nothing I can say or do to fix that that makes any kind of sense, so I hope you manage to find a fun gaming experience for yourself somewhere else.

[Smac]

If I unlock a 'cheat', say the one where i win the manager of the year award 3 times in a row, is that cheat available for all FMC saves, or just that one ive unlocked it on?

and same if I pay to unlock it, is that only available in that save or can i use it in all my FMC games once ive paid for it?

And then same again for the boosting bank balance, although that looks from the video like you have to pay everytime if you want to do that.

I believe Miles has said that International Management (your first one) is a permanent unlock, but some others are clearly unlock-per-game, like the bank balance one. It would make no sense to start every game forever with +$50m, clearly.

[daylight]

Because FM is meant to be a simulation. And I don't know of any managers who voluntarily ask their assistant to look after the team on match days whilst they don't attend the match.

Although you are right,if your name is Fergie you can.

Fergie did miss the Hanover versus Man Utd game.

[Bababui]

Because FM is meant to be a simulation. And I don't know of any managers who voluntarily ask their assistant to look after the team on match days whilst they don't attend the match.

Well I dont know of any managers who voluntarily ask their assistant to look after the team during training whilst they dont attend the training. Or allow AssMen to set starting lineups.

[CaptainPlanet]

Unfortunately for you, you won't be playing (m)any more games in the future then, Mr.Planet. There aren't many titles nowadays that don't have some for of DLC available, mainly because there are a lot of customers out there who really want it.

We've been incredibly careful to ensure that it doesn't affect those that don't want it negatively, which is a lot more than most do. But if it's a moral standpoint for you, there is nothing I can say or do to fix that that makes any kind of sense, so I hope you manage to find a fun gaming experience for yourself somewhere else.

There are lots of titles without DLC, they just might not be all big sellers chasing a profit margin. And saying people want it is ridiculous, people are happy to accept it is closer to the truth. Nobody wants to pay for a game and then pay extra for an optional feature, but they are willing to do so. If the main game price itself was reduced and then feature were optional, it would be similar to an MMO free to play model with micro-transactions, to continue charging the same price for the main game and then charging for extras is not what people want.

[spankie]

I don't want to financially support a company with that strategy because I think it's damaging to the industry. It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

I think that most of the games I have played recently have DLC that you buy that add to the game or gives you a boost like extra money and nearly all of them involve content that could have been made a part of the game. For example Sleeping Dogs has 2 payable DLC that gives you a boost to the 3 XP attributes and another that gives you 1M HK$. In all cases they are not needed as there is enough content in the game to get you everything, in fact if you do all the car hijacks you can earn at least 3M HK$ and that is enough to buy everything in the game.

So Square Enix have given the option for people who don't want to or don't have the time to do every minor thing in the game to get them to maximum XP or lots of money. SI have done exactly the same thing with these microtransactions. In both games you have the option to pay money to get an advantage to make your gaming experience a little easier or with a little bit of effort and luck you can do exactly the same thing in game and SI ahve even given people the chance to unlock at least half of the microtransaction through just playing the game.

[7Bestie7]

There are lots of titles without DLC, they just might not be all big sellers chasing a profit margin. And saying people want it is ridiculous, people are happy to accept it is closer to the truth. Nobody wants to pay for a game and then pay extra for an optional feature, but they are willing to do so. If the main game price itself was reduced and then feature were optional, it would be similar to an MMO free to play model with micro-transactions, to continue charging the same price for the main game and then charging for extras is not what people want.

Well I can say you're certainly not talking for me. The only time I do DLC stuff is when it becomes available for free but that's purely a financial decision. There are some DLC that is absolutely amazing, some unlockables that I would certainly like and at least understand why people pay for it. And yet there's this one game for the PS3 that I do happily pay for DLC. If DLC doesn't affect the main game then I don't think the moral argument has a leg to stand on since (as has been mentioned before) games for years have released expansion packs that gamers could buy from shops if they wanted to or just stick with the normal game if that's their poison.

[daylight]

There are lots of titles without DLC, they just might not be all big sellers chasing a profit margin. And saying people want it is ridiculous, people are happy to accept it is closer to the truth. Nobody wants to pay for a game and then pay extra for an optional feature, but they are willing to do so. If the main game price itself was reduced and then feature were optional, it would be similar to an MMO free to play model with micro-transactions, to continue charging the same price for the main game and then charging for extras is not what people want.

Players do like "some" DLC,e.g with Borderlands 1 the DLC was great and gave new adventures without having to wait on them making an entire new game,I very much enjoyed the DLC of that game and it kept me playing it even longer.

Miles is sort of right as in if you want to play AAA titles in the future then you will have to get on board with DLC,hell these days they even sell "Season passes" that you can buy all the DLC in advance before it has even released.

People pay for it because it keeps them playing their favourite games and devs love it because it brings in cash and does not take anywhere near as long to program.

The DLC that brings only say a new skin or maybe a new weapon I never buy but if people want to pay for it I don't go all high and mighty on them,it's their cash and their choice.

[CaptainPlanet]

Well I can say you're certainly not talking for me. The only time I do DLC stuff is when it becomes available for free but that's purely a financial decision. There are some DLC that is absolutely amazing, some unlockables that I would certainly like and at least understand why people pay for it. And yet there's this one game for the PS3 that I do happily pay for DLC. If DLC doesn't affect the main game then I don't think the moral argument has a leg to stand on since (as has been mentioned before) games for years have released expansion packs that gamers could buy from shops if they wanted to or just stick with the normal game if that's their poison.

So before a game is released, you're sat there going "oh, I hope they restrict certain parts of the game on release that I have to pay extra to unlock!"?

Because that's what "people want DLC" means.

As I said earlier, there's a huge difference between restricting content on release, and using revenue from the sales to create more content and then charging for that as an expansion.

[x42bn6]

Well I dont know of any managers who voluntarily ask their assistant to look after the team during training whilst they dont attend the training. Or allow AssMen to set starting lineups.

Or control their director of football. Isn't it the other way round?

[rimm!]

I believe Miles has said that International Management (your first one) is a permanent unlock, but some others are clearly unlock-per-game, like the bank balance one. It would make no sense to start every game forever with +$50m, clearly.

Any chance of a list of permanent ones then? Obviously some would be great for a career style game, whereas others I'd only use some for 'messing around' games really, eg: 'all players interested' is a great one but i'd only really use it if i was just playing about, not if i was in a career save, plus I'd wanna know how much its going to cost me to start a new game with all the features on!!

[7Bestie7]

So before a game is released, you're sat there going "oh, I hope they restrict certain parts of the game on release that I have to pay extra to unlock!"?

Because that's what "people want DLC" means.

As I said earlier, there's a huge difference between restricting content on release, and using revenue from the sales to create more content and then charging for that as an expansion.

I can't tell if you're deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying or just so caught up in your argument you're not listening to what's being said.

DLC is supposed to be about extras. Everything that isn't an actual extra in the game can be unlocked on its own (International Management) but anything that is new/changes the game is available for DLC (changing WP laws/more money). When people buy games and then look at DLC they are looking at what EXTRAS are available.

Aside from making a few of the aspects of FMC unlockable (easily), in what way is SI restricting content? They aren't. No game has essential parts locked within a DLC and there is nothing in the videos that suggests that SI is going to be the first to do so.

[CaptainPlanet]

in what way is SI restricting content? They aren't

Is there an adult around who can help you?

I'm sorry but if you aren't understanding, you're clearly the one who's caught up in their own beliefs and opinions here.

[ri916]

Is there an adult around who can help you?

I'm sorry but if you aren't understanding, you're clearly the one who's caught up in their own beliefs and opinions here.

Name some content that was in fm12 that SI are now charging for as DLC.

[7Bestie7]

Is there an adult around who can help you?

I'm sorry but if you aren't understanding, you're clearly the one who's caught up in their own beliefs and opinions here.

You insinuated that SI was holding back certain parts of the game to make users have to pay for DLC. The video clearly shows the DLC and which ones are unlockable or which ones can only be used if paid for. The ones that fundamentally change the game are all DLC-only, the ones that are unlockable through playing the game itself are the parts of FMC that are kept "locked" as a type of challenge. I see no major content that is being held over anyone's head as a DLC that must be bought.

[CaptainPlanet]

You insinuated that SI was holding back certain parts of the game to make users have to pay for DLC.

They are.

Your own personal level of importance placed on the content that is restricted is completely irrelevant.

[x42bn6]

I can't tell if you're deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying or just so caught up in your argument you're not listening to what's being said.

DLC is supposed to be about extras. Everything that isn't an actual extra in the game can be unlocked on its own (International Management) but anything that is new/changes the game is available for DLC (changing WP laws/more money). When people buy games and then look at DLC they are looking at what EXTRAS are available.

Aside from making a few of the aspects of FMC unlockable (easily), in what way is SI restricting content? They aren't. No game has essential parts locked within a DLC and there is nothing in the videos that suggests that SI is going to be the first to do so.

It's not essential, but then again, few things in a game are really essential.

The issue with DLC is that there exists some code out there that you do not have and need to pay extra for - the idea is that you aren't buying the finished product with the DLC.

People in general want "expansions" to their game - a good game with additional things to keep them interested (be it extra mechanics, features, challenges, new skin, etc.). However, "future expansions" in a classical sense means that "this stuff isn't completed yet but it will when it is released". In other words, things aren't held back with a price barrier.

Without DLC, it forces companies to get a fully-fledged product out and doesn't give customers the impression they are money-grabbing people who need to purchase extras to complete their game. More so since most DLC out there is relatively small in nature. It brings the question, "Surely they could just bundle it into the product and perhaps optionally turn it off?"

DLC is an intriguing thing. Expansions in the classical sense (things like Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne) were generally large pieces of software because the software medium was expensive to ship small updates around (there was no point in shipping CDs for a 20 MB update, for example). This was before high-speed Internet became popular, of course. Because they were large pieces of software, it meant that you were effectively getting a new product (indeed, some expansions can be standalone). DLC, however, means that you can have little updates, and in general, some DLC results in companies being rather... Lazy. DLC is nothing more than a buzzword for "extras" in a game. DLC allows deadlines to be stretched - if it doesn't make it, you can DLC it later on. DLC is less risky - if a DLC is crap, people won't download it, but since DLCs are generally small in nature, there's less loss there.

All SI are doing are monetising mini-patches of sorts, really, with patches that happen to add gameplay experiences.

So for what it's worth, I think "extras" (perhaps in the form of DLC) is a good thing in the same way that expansions are a good thing, but day-one/early DLC is a bad idea, since you are effectively saying, "we've cut this feature out of the game because we can make more money selling it separately".

[CaptainPlanet]

So for what it's worth, I think "extras" (perhaps in the form of DLC) is a good thing in the same way that expansions are a good thing, but day-one/early DLC is a bad idea, since you are effectively saying, "we've cut this feature out of the game because we can make more money selling it separately".

Pretty much covers it.

[gogogo golem]

I think the only feature they are holding back in FMC is the removal of attribute masking, for people who don't have time to play properly that is really naughty in my opinion but the rest of it has been implemented spot on. Not that it'll affect me but I think they got that bit wrong and that bit only. The NT management thing won't make much difference as it's pretty fast in the full version anyway and NT on it's own in FMC would be a pretty lonely existence.

[7Bestie7]

ISo for what it's worth, I think "extras" (perhaps in the form of DLC) is a good thing in the same way that expansions are a good thing, but day-one/early DLC is a bad idea, since you are effectively saying, "we've cut this feature out of the game because we can make more money selling it separately".

Except for two very specific issues relating to FM.

1 - It's a football manager simulation so expansion packs is a very difficult thing to implement. The entire concept is to have as much of the real world of football at the user's fingertips. If they started to cut back on the leagues in FM and make them DLC then I would aggree with your assessment but..

2 - The DLC that isn't unlockable (aside from the FoW) are all aspects of the game that have never and would never be available in FM otherwise. Boosting bank balances or changing WP laws was only possible by us editing databases pre-game, the balances only possible in-game via a 3rd part software.

And taking #2 into account, I don't see why they wouldn't have it ready on day 1. Again, these DLC aren't aspects that would be available for us in-game at any other time.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

After buying FM ever since CM2 I wasn't going to buy FM this time around however, FMC has persuaded me to give it another bash.

Great idea. May well need tweaking for FM14 but I'm looking forward to giving it a go.

Cheers SI

[MakaveliPT]

Hey i got an idea, why don't ya all shut the hell up, buy the game if you like it, don't buy it if you don't AND! AND... keep whatever thoughts you got about industry moral, how devs should do the game and what not for yourself!! Yes, this is a forum, you are supposed to share your thoughts although it's not a club's wc so stop pissin everywhere and at everything.

Who do you people think you are? Really, after this post i'll probably leave this forums cuz the ammount of moaning pre release is unbelievable! I'm already moaning at moaning! why do you think devs should take your oppinion in such high standards? Who are you people to tell which ever company how to do a game? I don't like a bunch of stuff too and i'm a computer's major and still ain't gonna act like i can teach them something. And what's the problem with these "cheats"? Are you afraid you'll be too tempted to get them yourself? That's why you're mad? People being using cheats for ages, FMRTE creator is making money out of SI game ffs, now that SI makes money out of SI, it's unbearable?

Live and let live, main game is untouched and if you only gonna play that why are you even posting here? Just to let know how you feel about something you are not gonna play? Oh ok, Thank you for sharing, does your wife is ... no, i ain't going there, i'm sorry

But really, do you people think you are SI saviors?? White knights gonna save innocent company against evil DLC ? LOL f***** GET A GRIP PEOPLE.

Already pre ordered mine and can't wait for the 19th i don't give 2 f's about the cheats, i'm not gon use them and FM is so much more than that why should i care, that's what you people don't get, SI has a great product, what? you thought they would be elitists forever and only appeal to us? In today's world? cmon..

You doing fine SI, more players, more money, more improvements.

[haunted1234]

It is in this position that the new leaderboards become interesting- with the DLC, it's extremely difficult to see how an FMC Leaderboard could exist, as it probably would be a case of buying your way to the top of it. Likewise, it would be impossible to establish any credibility for a Full FM Leaderboard if there were DLC, and as this is a new "feature", it also counts against the idea.

thats excatly what SI wants. think about it. even if you just find a handfull of people who gonna try to top the leaderboards on FMC or whatever category this DLC includes they gonna spend money like crazy, thats what they want them to do. thats the whole point of the microtransactions and leaderboards.

and dont tell me "if you bought DLC you gonna get less points". if you start in BSS with a 50 million bank, you should get excatly 0 points for whatever you do from this point forward.

[CaptainPlanet]

after this post i'll probably leave this forums

If that's your regular standard of post, I think we can all agree that you leaving is probably the best thing for everyone.

[x42bn6]

Except for two very specific issues relating to FM.

1 - It's a football manager simulation so expansion packs is a very difficult thing to implement. The entire concept is to have as much of the real world of football at the user's fingertips. If they started to cut back on the leagues in FM and make them DLC then I would aggree with your assessment but..

2 - The DLC that isn't unlockable (aside from the FoW) are all aspects of the game that have never and would never be available in FM otherwise. Boosting bank balances or changing WP laws was only possible by us editing databases pre-game, the balances only possible in-game via a 3rd part software.

And taking #2 into account, I don't see why they wouldn't have it ready on day 1. Again, these DLC aren't aspects that would be available for us in-game at any other time.

On #2, microtransactions are rather naughty, kind of like how at shopping centres you have the sweets towards the end of the counter so children can whine and parents cave in, giving the shopping centre more money. However, a third-party editor may well provide that functionality anyway (having said that, could that be the straw that breaks the camel's back with regards to FMRTE?). It works, too - League of Legends does this with its Champions. Although in all honesty I think it's a bit of a cheap trick, like sweets at the counter at a shopping centre. This type of DLC is really just monetising FMRTE.

#1 is a good point and it is exactly why people like CaptainPlanet feel shortchanged when some functionality (i.e. fog of war) that used to be a free (optional) feature is now a paid optional feature. Any gameplay enhancements, if they are perceived to be "small", will always ask the question "couldn't you bundle this into the original game, or a free patch instead?" In fact, you would expect that from a gaming company in the past.

[x42bn6]

Who do you people think you are? Really, after this post i'll probably leave this forums cuz the ammount of moaning pre release is unbelievable! I'm already moaning at moaning! why do you think devs should take your oppinion in such high standards? Who are you people to tell which ever company how to do a game? I don't like a bunch of stuff too and i'm a computer's major and still ain't gonna act like i can teach them something.

Ah, Computer major. One thing they never teach you at University or college nowadays is that you develop software for customers. If you don't listen to or understand your customers, why develop software at all?

So who do these people think they are? Well, it's simple. Pretty much everyone on here has an interest, no matter how remote, in purchasing FM13 or a future version. Most people here have been past customers of SI. So we are "only" potential customers of SI - people who will be giving SI money. And if SI want to get money off these people, they should take their opinion into account, quite frankly.

[7Bestie7]

On #2, microtransactions are rather naughty, kind of like how at shopping centres you have the sweets towards the end of the counter so children can whine and parents cave in, giving the shopping centre more money. However, a third-party editor may well provide that functionality anyway (having said that, could that be the straw that breaks the camel's back with regards to FMRTE?). It works, too - League of Legends does this with its Champions. Although in all honesty I think it's a bit of a cheap trick, like sweets at the counter at a shopping centre. This type of DLC is really just monetising FMRTE.

#1 is a good point and it is exactly why people like CaptainPlanet feel shortchanged when some functionality (i.e. fog of war) that used to be a free (optional) feature is now a paid optional feature. Any gameplay enhancements, if they are perceived to be "small", will always ask the question "couldn't you bundle this into the original game, or a free patch instead?" In fact, you would expect that from a gaming company in the past.

I agree on the temptation but then I think it's like the Editor or FMRTE, people who will use them to cheat do so, people who don't won't.

As for 1, I would agree with the outrage if FoW was mandatory on FM full since I don't ever use it (as far as I see, RL managers/scouts are capable of seeing peoples "attributes" by watching videos/matches of players. They can look at a player and know if he has good technique but still need a scouting report to say if there's a chance of growth). However FMC has been released and is being spoken about by SI as very different type of FM game and to me the FoW being auto-on is the same type of decision as (apparently) only allowing three leagues available to start with.

[SmurfDude]

Ah, Computer major. One thing they never teach you at University or college nowadays is that you develop software for customers. If you don't listen to or understand your customers, why develop software at all?

So who do these people think they are? Well, it's simple. Pretty much everyone on here has an interest, no matter how remote, in purchasing FM13 or a future version. Most people here have been past customers of SI. So we are "only" potential customers of SI - people who will be giving SI money. And if SI want to get money off these people, they should take their opinion into account, quite frankly.

FM is always one of the best selling PC games, so clearly SI are giving the majority of customers what they want. You can't please every single person and inevitably some won't buy the game. Why should SI change the game to suit a handful of people if the majority are happy? You have to remember this forum only accounts for a fraction of the number of people who even play FM, and by comparison the people who incessantly moan account for a tiny fraction. I expect SI will be able to sort the rubbish from the genuine constructive criticism though and that's what matters.

[MasterOfSuspense]

I won't be playing FMC anyway mainly because a) I'm an old school FMer and would prefer to play the full proper game and b) I have the time to play the proper game

My ONLY concern is that unlockables will be introduced into the full game in the future - paying for 3D, use of the editor etc

[MakaveliPT]

Ty Captain!

Ah, Computer major. One thing they never teach you at University or college nowadays is that you develop software for customers. If you don't listen to or understand your customers, why develop software at all?

So who do these people think they are? Well, it's simple. Pretty much everyone on here has an interest, no matter how remote, in purchasing FM13 or a future version. Most people here have been past customers of SI. So we are "only" potential customers of SI - people who will be giving SI money. And if SI want to get money off these people, they should take their opinion into account, quite frankly.

Why develop software at all? Cuz back then when i was a kid, developers had creative freedom, that statement "if you don't listen to or understand your customers, why develop software at all" is what's wrong, that statement underlines the same business models that you urge against. If you want devs to create the game focus on customers (which SI did) why do you people are pissed at FMC (which was made for customers with less time) or unlockables for people who just want some casual gaming fun?

SI gotta release the product they feel its right, i am a customer and the type of customer i see now a days pisses me off, these are not customers, they wanna play the boss they wanna order companies around to do the game they feel it's right. Guess what? They know better than us. Also, imo that's the stupid type of customer, otherwise they'd see the video's play the demo, be interested or not in the product and act from that. Most people watch the videos moan, play the demo, moan, and then they still buy the game just to get back at moaning 2 or 3 months after because they can't score, c'mon..

Are you familiar to the mass effect 3 "novel" ? People didn't enjoy the game's ending, they made petitions and what not to have it changed, they eventually did some changes to it, nobody was happy either way, and they shouldn't have changed anything, it's their game, people act like they are obliged to buy the game and then get pissed at it not being what they wanted, you don't have to buy it!

What you people do is lol.. when i was a kid i used to buy those football players cards you know? I wouldn't get pissed at the company that made them cuz van basten wasnt among these lil 15 cards, they release the product you either want it or you don't. And please stop with the argument that we are potential customers and they need our money and what not, i already pre ordered the game and i'm not acting like if i didn't SI would go bankrupt.

With steam now a days, for every old school fm gamer that is acting elitist about all these lil issues, they have another new 100 customers, yes my post was simply moaning at moaning, but in these forums for every person that praises SI on something, 10 people bash them, so you wanna be heard? You don't even support the company, most people just bash at everything. I guess SI should make a fm version of the game different for each person maybe then they would get someone happy.

[x42bn6]

FM is always one of the best selling PC games, so clearly SI are giving the majority of customers what they want. You can't please every single person and inevitably some won't buy the game. Why should SI change the game to suit a handful of people if the majority are happy? You have to remember this forum only accounts for a fraction of the number of people who even play FM, and by comparison the people who incessantly moan account for a tiny fraction. I expect SI will be able to sort the rubbish from the genuine constructive criticism though and that's what matters.

Well, if SI made fog of war so it wasn't DLC, that would solve most of the problems. I can't see how it would upset anyone, anyway. Like people have said, if you don't want to use fog of war, don't use it - even if it was available without DLC!

More importantly, it shows the direction SI are trying to aim at - and before people start jumping up and down with joy with DLC, remember that for every gameplay-extending feature released as DLC early-on could well have been in the original game you purchased.

Why develop software at all? Cuz back then when i was a kid, developers had creative freedom, that statement "if you don't listen to or understand your customers, why develop software at all" is what's wrong, that statement underlines the same business models that you urge against. If you want devs to create the game focus on customers (which SI did) why do you people are pissed at FMC (which was made for customers with less time) or unlockables for people who just want some casual gaming fun?

Because not all the features of this release are good? I don't think people are too bothered about FMC as such, nor even the concept of unlockables, but features that could well have been in the release but are now can only be purchased as a DLC. And one of those features was in a previous version, making this a regression.

SI gotta release the product they feel its right, i am a customer and the type of customer i see now a days pisses me off, these are not customers, they wanna play the boss they wanna order companies around to do the game they feel it's right. Guess what? They know better than us. Also, imo that's the stupid type of customer, otherwise they'd see the video's play the demo, be interested or not in the product and act from that. Most people watch the videos moan, play the demo, moan, and then they still buy the game just to get back at moaning 2 or 3 months after because they can't score, c'mon..

Let's not generalise here. If people are not interested in the product, Occam's Razor suggests they won't buy it, not spite themselves by buying it and moaning about it.

I actually think customers who don't complain are worse customers, because it's criticism that helps develops the series, not silence. Demanding customers are the most rewarding to please

And please stop with the argument that we are potential customers and they need our money and what not, i already pre ordered the game and i'm not acting like if i didn't SI would go bankrupt.

Cool. I don't see how the latter refutes the former, though. So you are a customer - how does that impact another person being a potential customer?

With steam now a days, for every old school fm gamer that is acting elitist about all these lil issues, they have another new 100 customers, yes my post was simply moaning at moaning, but in these forums for every person that praises SI on something, 10 people bash them, so you wanna be heard? You don't even support the company, most people just bash at everything. I guess SI should make a fm version of the game different for each person maybe then they would get someone happy.

What's in it for you to critique the criticism? If critique didn't exist, you'd buy the game. If it did exist, by the looks of it, you'd buy the game anyway. So why does the criticism mean anything to you?

[djvandyke]

Nobody would be complaining had you produced something of quality something for example a historic seasons DLC.

Watered down version of football manger and selling cheats. Did you honestly expect any less than public ridicule?

[asdpoo]

Because FM is meant to be a simulation. And I don't know of any managers who voluntarily ask their assistant to look after the team on match days whilst they don't attend the match.

What a lame excuse. Do you know any managers that go on holiday for the matchday? How about a season? It is a game meant to entertain, it is not a real world simulation for future managers, because guess what - that would suck.

[Lawlore]

What a lame excuse. Do you know any managers that go on holiday for the matchday? How about a season? It is a game meant to entertain, it is not a real world simulation for future managers, because guess what - that would suck.

As a mischievious sidepoint, it's quite funny that this debate is going on as Stirling Albion beat Rangers 1-0, with the Stirling player-manager missing the game because he's getting married. Certainly the exception, but good timing nonetheless.

[MasterOfSuspense]

There are those that don't mind paying for extras or cheats and those that are 100% against it - they will never agree

Bit like two sects of a certain religion or United and City fans

[Smac]

There are those that don't mind paying for extras or cheats and those that are 100% against it - they will never agree

Bit like two sects of a certain religion or United and City fans

No, it is far more complicated than that, and it isn't even all that complicated.

Most people posting against the unlockables have implied that they love FM and want it to be the best thing ever. They feel that this feature tarnishes things or is off-putting, or takes it down the wrong path, etc.. Some dislike only 1 or 2 unlockables and are fine with the rest. Some will probably walk away from FM out of anger, but that doesn't mean they are 100% against it. And on the other side, some people that like the feature will never use it. They see that it could be attractive to other people, which can only be a good thing for FM in the long run.

So no, it isn't like religion at all: It is possible to converse rationally about it and possibly alter one's view based on reason and evidence informed by discussion and debate.

[milnerpoint]

The argument about the for of war is pointless, fog of war was never free in FMC, because FMC has never existed before now, in the main game you will still be able to turn it on or off if you want for nothing. So they have not taken anything away, we have never had this version of the game before now.

[Bababui]

The argument about the for of war is pointless, fog of war was never free in FMC, because FMC has never existed before now, in the main game you will still be able to turn it on or off if you want for nothing. So they have not taken anything away, we have never had this version of the game before now.

I like your Eugene Tyson alias better.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

The argument about the for of war is pointless, fog of war was never free in FMC, because FMC has never existed before now, in the main game you will still be able to turn it on or off if you want for nothing. So they have not taken anything away, we have never had this version of the game before now.

But Fog of War deactivation option out of the box has been intrinsic to the FM gameplay for 10 years or more. Of course nothing has been in FMC before - it is a new mode, but whilst making every player interested in you club or completely rehashing League rules at the click of a button (subject to a small administration fee!) is new across the board (unless you previously severely edited the game of course), FOW (and it could be argued International Management from the go) are standard expectations from the genre and I fear standard expectations from the returning old consumer.

As I have said before Iwill pay my 69p to deacivate it, I wont grumble, but this will be a debating point which it never needed to be.

[x42bn6]

The argument about the for of war is pointless, fog of war was never free in FMC, because FMC has never existed before now, in the main game you will still be able to turn it on or off if you want for nothing. So they have not taken anything away, we have never had this version of the game before now.

So if FMC only had one league but you could purchase additional leagues for money, would that be acceptable too, because "FMC has never existed before now"?

Wasn't FMC billed as basically FM, but with most of the faff cut out, so people could quickly go through seasons without the additional "extras"? However, fog of war is not "faff" - it's a gameplay feature that some used (and enjoyed) and some did not in previous FMs.

If SI are selling FMC to FM users who are tired of all the "extras" in FM12, it makes sense to compare FMC to FM12, and one of the features, the fog of war being optional, has been removed; and this feature appears to be a fairly large one for some. This means it's not a pointless argument. As is the lack of league choices, and lack of editor files, and so on. Perhaps not in that order in terms of severity, but it is possible that some feel that too much has been cut out from FMC, and one of those features has been "cynically" been sold as DLC.

[MakaveliPT]

What's in it for you to critique the criticism? If critique didn't exist, you'd buy the game. If it did exist, by the looks of it, you'd buy the game anyway. So why does the criticism mean anything to you?

That's my point, either you buy the game and since you've bought it, since you've recognized enough value on the product to buy it, why are you criticizing? And if you don't buy the game then why your criticism would matter for either SI or the other people that bought the game?

And i agree there's need to be constructive cristicism but that's not what's in this forums, just a bunch of moaning posts. And that point that everyone does about DLC, every DLC could have been already on the release, every single one. And which features are bought as dlc? because the only ones i see is unlockables and it's not the feature they are selling as dlc, and i don't even see it as a feature. They are not exactly selling the ME upgrade as DLC.

Anyway, points of view, i still think there's 90% of moaners in this forum that will buy the game anyway and just moan for the sake of moaning, and 10% of constructive criticism.