Developing the tactical creator. Some suggestions.

[Haiku]

Hi there. I have a few suggestions about tactical part of the game. I think that is correct to simplify tactical panel by eliminating positions AML, AMR, AMC, DM, WBR and WBL. The reason is that appear quite confusing situations where it is difficult to evaluate the player and what position he is playing. For example, how is it possible to have a player on the DL position who is attacking WB and on the right on the WB position to have Wingback who is defensive? I know the first one is playing about 5 meters deeper by default, but he is more attacking, going forward and dribbling with the ball more often. How it is possible to have ML with attack duty and AMR who is Defensive winger? Who will play deeper? Who will attack more, and who will help the defense more often? It's quite strange that some players like Hulk, who is natural AMR cannot play MR?! So if I put him AMR def wing he will perform better than MR attack , just because he is incompetent in MR?! I'm trying to play a flat 4-4-2 and it's very hard to find players which are good on the respective ML/MR positions. I think it's a good idea to eliminate these positions(AML/AMR etc.), and bring back the arrows. Here is what I suggest. If I wish to play 4-3-3 with 2 Inside forwards I will put my side forwards on the STL and STR positions with Inside role and/or an arrow pointing where I wish them to attack. The tactical wizard itself will put them a little back or fw depending the duty I give them.. attacking , supporting or defending. When I wish to play with wingers I will put them on ML/MR positions with respective duty and/or arrow, and the tactical table will move them a little back or fw depending the duty. The same goes with DL/DR positions - WB's will appear more forward than FB.. The same about MCs - attacking MC(adv. playmaker) will go a little forward, the supporting MC will stay in the middle, and the defensive mid will go a little deeper. The competence of the players will be determined not by their position but by their role. So let's take Berbatov for example. He is ST, but he can play a lot better as Trequartista or DLP than Poacher for example. So the researcher will put him natural Trequartista/DLP and some competency on Adv playmaker(take in mind that the MC adv playmaker will put him forward), and less on poacher. It would be also great if you implement that with the strategy. So when we create our tactics we should be able to give certain roles and duties depending the strategy - attack, def, control etc. So when I'm attacking i will want my wingers to be more forward (attacking wings), when need to defend - changing the strategy will automatically switch my wings to def wings, so they will stay more deep and will help the defense. These things should be able to set them when creating the tactics, and during the match they will apply automatically when changing strategy, so it will not be necessary to change tactics every time. I know that my suggestions are not quite relevant and accurate, but I think I set you my vision about developing that part of the game. Thank you.

[soccer.joel]

Interesting idea but there is a difference and don't think they should change it

[Phelix]

The positional placements are just a guide, and the ability of someone to play in a certain positional placement is not critical. I use players "out of position" regularly and find that they perform as well as I would expect them to given their attributes. A player may be a little less comfortable being asked to play deeper than he is used to (ie Hulk) but it is the role he is assigned that is critical. Hulk is essentially a striker that has become accustomed to playing wider and deeper than your average centerforward, therefore it would make sense that he is not accustomed to playing in the deeper right midfield slot. He is used to being behind the oppositions midfielder, not lined up with him.

Removing the ability to place players into these starting positions would be taking several steps back in football management. In real life you can position a player anywhere, why can't we do the same on Football Manager? Don't constrain yourself to thinking all players have to have green circles to be competent in a position, as long as they have the ability to do what you are asking of them, you wont have any trouble.

[Haiku]

Yes I know they wont change anything. The thing is these flowing positions should be removed in my opinion. Yes we should be able to put our players where we want them. Do some of you guys use the spots on the both upper corners - these left and right to the striker near the corner flag? So is this position actually a winger position or striker? Talking about Hulk - you said that he is naturally a striker who plays on the right on the АМR(attacking midfielder right), so is he actually a midfielder or striker? Playing with 4-3-3 with inside forward is it actually 4-3-3 or 4-5-1? I want players like HULK to be STR, not AMR, and players like Bale to be ML, not AML... so it makes the difference. Putting the right role and duty(att, sup etc.) will actually make the players be where I want them to be. It's naturally that WB(att) on the DL position would stay forward in my tactics than the FB(def) ot the DR. Like I said.. what is the point to choose wingback attack on DL and wingback defend on WBR? Who will play where and act like what? The stupid double roles - Trequartista on Striker, and Trequartista on AMC... Let's say I have a great AMC.. He would be great as Treq, but I want to put him Treq on ST, but he is not able to play there? And WHY!? The difference is 5 meters, anything else is the same - role, duty, important attributes. And trequartista is actually a striker role, not midfield. Same with wingers - great AMR wing, bad MR wing.. 5 meters ... oh wait he is actually a striker who is natural on the Right.. and should play him inside, but I can play him winger as well, because he is Natural on AMR.. Make it simple guys, bring back the arrows.. DL,DC,DR, ML,MC,MR,STL,ST,STR - roles, duties, automatic positioning depending the duty and role, and/or using an arrow pointing where I want him to rush.

[lucatonix]

You are taking the available positions out of context. No logical tactic plays a DR WB attack and a WBL WB defend. Very few tactics actually have players in both these positions normally both FB or both WB).

There is a need for these positions as they give an indication of defensive responsibility and positioning on the pitch. So for example say you wanted your right winger to not position himself during attacks on the opposition fullback but rather sit between their FB and winger. However in defense you don't want him to track back to just infront of your fullback. Rather you want him more advanced so he is primed to support your lone striker and press the opposition full back. In this situation you would choose an AMR as a Winger support.

If you chose an MR neither Winger support or attack would give you this playing style.

Another way to look at it is if we did simplify it as you are saying, what does an MC center mid attack do? Does he play like an AM support/attack or does he play like it does in the match engine currently? Would he try to sit inbetween the lines of the opposition defense or would he break past and make early/late runs into the box? If he were to stay inbetween the lines, at what stage of the attack does he move there? After carrying out defensive responsibilities and upon winning the ball back, does he position himself in between the lines all the time and close down deep midfielders and/or defenders?

In addition to this how do you limit where you can place arrows? It is highly illogical for a team to send half its players to the left flank during every attack but that could be achieved via the arrow system and could result in massive exploitation of any minor flaws in the match engine due to overloading areas in ridiculous manners such as described above.

Rather than a massive oversimplification in positioning and arrows, it would make more sense to improve the current tactics creator to accommodate more styles of play more easily; improvement in the description of roles; ability to create custom roles that are still affected by shouts and changes in philosophy and strategy etc.

[Anttikristus]

I dont think either system (the old one with arrows or the new one with the messy position/role mixup) is anywhere near correct one...

In the old system; You basicly placed the players where they should be when defending and then drew the arrows to where they should be when attacking. The defensive placing was failty since they where standing where their avarage position was. And the offensive positioning was faulty because they only had one arrow (hence they where predictable one trick ponys).

In the new system; Theres preset positions but the players treat them as avarage in both attack and defense. So it is little better. But they are still following a lot of "roles" instead of positions. For example;

- I have huge difficulties getting my two MC to act as MLC and MRC. Instead they both insist on playing either DMC or AMC (To make it worse, at the same time). My tactic has AMC and DMC positions so they only overlap to where they are not wanted.

- I have huge difficulties gettim my DMC to actually play between where MC and DC is. Instead he either goes and tries to be 3rd DC or the missing MC when the two mentioned earlier have left their position.

- My AMC doesnt play the way he should be either; He should be moving sideways behind the two attackers I have but instead he insists overlapping the attackers 75% of the time (around 20% should be suitable).

- My CD actually position themselfs as DLC and DRC as they should be. But they are not marking men in zonal... (Zonal defence doesnt mean you dont mark. It means you mark one man that comes in to your zone.)

- The wingbacks work as I intend. But they often run out of the own half when the ball is still with my goalkeeper or CD... So they are playing only attacking role. I could set them to play support but then they stop the attacking from the side. And futher more; When they are attacking; They do it at the same time... I would want other to stay down when other is up.

So as 3rd option (since i trashed the 2 earlier ones and feel i should offer one) I would suggest one that is more near to realism:

- Each player should have two sets of sliders of where they should move on defence and offence. 4 sliders on each; how high they go, how deep they go, how much to left and how much to right. (Thats the way its done by real coatches; they tell "go higher" "come deeper" "play wider" "play more to left"...)

- Second addion would be set of rules about when to go up and when to go down... "Mirror player x" type of thing... This is quite standard between players; When I played as junior; I played central defender. When we where overloading the opposition; Other of the defenders whent up to secure clearances in the middfield and other stayed down. Similarry if we where attacking from left side and it was the left fullback taking the ball up. The right fullback stayed in defence and we had 3 defenders.