'Doubling Up' on Team & Player instructions - Does it do anything? i.e. short passing.

[Mr U Rosler]

If I have 'short' passing on my Team Instructions and i also add it to every players individual instructions does it have any effect or is this a waste of time??

There are a few other instructions that can be duplicated in this way.

I've been using a 'belt & braces' approach so far and have been adding it to both team and player instructions.

Is one way better than the other, i.e just leave it on team instructions or go into player instructions and do it individually?

Thanks

[RTHerringbone]

The Team Instructions affect the default passing structures of the team up or down, and the Player Instructions then influence that further.

If you imagine the Standard Mentality, most Roles are essentially on Mixed passing.

A TI of Pass Shorter will make most Roles play shorter passes, but it doesn't set them to the shortest possible passing length.

Applying PIs on top of the TI will further shorten the passes.

[Mr U Rosler]

Interesting, thanks.

[jamez_b]

Interesting question, i often double up instructions for certain players with poor decision making to almost reinforce the point. Whether that is the reality or not i've not known but i like to think that's how it should work.

I'd not thought of it from a pass it short/pass it even shorter. Though how short is a short pass versus a shorter pass? Or is it more the

Are we talking with a short pass he'll look at all the players directly around him whereas for a shorter pass he'll only look at say the pass in front or behind? Or is it more frequency of short pass versus long/direct as even if you have short passing there is always a direct ball once in a while?

[redmark]

Or is it more frequency of short pass versus long/direct as even if you have short passing there is always a direct ball once in a while?

Yes, I believe it's more (over-) emphasising the relative importance of the instruction. But where (to my mind) this gets problematic is that this isn't just a matter of team instructions and player instructions. Mentality, role and duty also affect this (and other behaviours). You might be quintupling the emphasis to pass short (and the lack of visibility of how much emphasis there is, makes this awkward). That doesn't mean he'll never pass more than two yards, but it does mean he's highly unlikely to look for anything other than a short pass, whatever the situation - and if a short pass isn't on, do what? Dwell on the ball and get dispossessed, or hoof it?

[rune_star]

The Team Instructions affect the default passing structures of the team up or down, and the Player Instructions then influence that further.

If you imagine the Standard Mentality, most Roles are essentially on Mixed passing.

A TI of Pass Shorter will make most Roles play shorter passes, but it doesn't set them to the shortest possible passing length.

Applying PIs on top of the TI will further shorten the passes.

Hmm, this goes somewhat against what has previously been said on the same subject??!? Untill now, it has been said that PI's would just override TI's, but NOT double the effect.

In case what RT says is true, then how about closing down? On top of hassle opponents, you could then tell you players to press even more by applying "close down" PI???

Can't remember all the threads, but this is clearly against what has previously been told, among others in the 'stupid questions' thread but also elsewhere...

[Cleon]

Hmm, this goes somewhat against what has previously been said on the same subject??!? Untill now, it has been said that PI's would just override TI's, but NOT double the effect.

In case what RT says is true, then how about closing down? On top of hassle opponents, you could then tell you players to press even more by applying "close down" PI???

Can't remember all the threads, but this is clearly against what has previously been told, among others in the 'stupid questions' thread but also elsewhere...

They do overwrite it, no need to overcomplicate things. What they actually overwrite has always been the default of what the settings is originally though, nothings changed and it still works the exact same way as it did in FM11,12,13 etc. using the term doubling the effect is quite confusing and misleading imo. As it doesn't double it, the PI overrides the base instruction. No-one has ever claimed different and explained this many times before.

[rune_star]

Thanks for clearing up, Cleon. That's what I thought...

Really don't want to be a nuisance here, but when RTHerringbone says this: "Applying PIs on top of the TI will further shorten the passes" in his post above, i'm sure there are many who sees that as an alternative 'interpretation' of the 'double instruction' dillema? Think it'd be good to clarify completely on the subject, as this is an often seen question on these forums

[RTHerringbone]

I've asked for some clarity from the SI guys.

If in doubt, always listen to Cleon and ignore me

[Cleon]

Me and RT are saying the same thing. The base of the role will be altered when adding PI's. So for arguments sake lets say the role has direct passing and you add the play shorter passes shout. It will just be a shorter type of direct passing they'll do, it doesn't mean they'll start playing it as short as possible.

What the actual default to begin with is set at though is determined by role/duty/mentality (team mentality)

For example someone in a defensive set up will have slightly different base settings to someone in an attacking set up. So what and how much it actually changes is set by this, if that makes sense to you?

[RTHerringbone]

Me and RT are saying the same thing. The base of the role will be altered when adding PI's. So for arguments sake lets say the role has direct passing and you add the play shorter passes shout. It will just be a shorter type of direct passing they'll do, it doesn't mean they'll start playing it as short as possible.

I think the question is as below - I'm throwing random numbers in:

If a Team Mentality is Standard and Player X has passing of 10, does applying a Team Instruction of Pass Shorter make his passing drop to 8?

If I then set a Player Instruction of Pass Shorter to that same player, does his passing drop further down from 8 to 6, or does it not have an effect?

I'd like to think that it has an incremental impact, otherwise it's a bit of a flaw of the new User Interface.

I'm not saying that any impact doubles, but it should be incremental.

[rune_star]

I've asked for some clarity from the SI guys.

If in doubt, always listen to Cleon and ignore me

HAHA, nice... be good to hear what the dudes have to say

Me and RT are saying the same thing. The base of the role will be altered when adding PI's. So for arguments sake lets say the role has direct passing and you add the play shorter passes shout. It will just be a shorter type of direct passing they'll do, it doesn't mean they'll start playing it as short as possible.

What the actual default to begin with is set at though is determined by role/duty/mentality (team mentality)

Ok, maybe I'm just being really heavy here but I don't think it's the same thing? Your own example doesn't mention the use of TI 'short passing' as well as PI 'pass shorter'... I think the OP wants clarification on whether two sets of 'pass shorter' instructions, will actually make players pass even shorter than with only one set of pass shorter instructions, no matter what the players base setting is. I don't think the answer to that is entirely clear in your example?

And please, don't ban me or anything if I'm the only one who can't see an apparent logical answer here I'm really just trying to clear this up as I know a LOT of players have been asking questions about this subject for many, many versions of FM

[rune_star]

I think the question is as below - I'm throwing random numbers in:

If a Team Mentality is Standard and Player X has passing of 10, does applying a Team Instruction of Pass Shorter make his passing drop to 8?

If I then set a Player Instruction of Pass Shorter to that same player, does his passing drop further down from 8 to 6, or does it not have an effect?

I'd like to think that it has an incremental impact, otherwise it's a bit of a flaw of the new User Interface.

I'm not saying that any impact doubles, but it should be incremental.

That is EXACTLY the way to put the question! Are the TI/PI's relative or absolute? It's my understanding from other threads throughout the years, that they are absolute, and thus a 'double' PI does NOT add/subtract to any value already given in the TI...

[Cleon]

I think the question is as below - I'm throwing random numbers in:

If a Team Mentality is Standard and Player X has passing of 10, does applying a Team Instruction of Pass Shorter make his passing drop to 8?

If I then set a Player Instruction of Pass Shorter to that same player, does his passing drop further down from 8 to 6, or does it not have an effect?

I'd like to think that it has an incremental impact, otherwise it's a bit of a flaw of the new User Interface.

I'm not saying that any impact doubles, but it should be incremental.

The PI overrides the TI, the base is already set for the role by the strategy/role/duty you use. I don't see it as a flaw because remember TI's set it for all players and not an individual and you might not want every player to be influenced.

This is how it worked for every previous version and I haven't seen SI say this has changed or witnessed this when watching games.

[RTHerringbone]

The PI overrides the TI, the base is already set for the role by the strategy/role/duty you use. I don't see it as a flaw because remember TI's set it for all players and not an individual and you might not want every player to be influenced.

This is how it worked for every previous version and I haven't seen SI say this has changed or witnessed this when watching games.

Originally I though that the PIs in the interface should be developed so they are dynamically "locked out" if a TI is applied which affects the same "thing". So, if you set Pass Shorter at a TI level, then the Pass modifiers at PI should become greyed out.

However, by it being as it is, you can just apply PIs to override the TI for individuals you want to play differently, so it makes sense.

I'm certain you're right about the TI / PI balance, but I'll add any "official" info I get just to nail this one down.

[Cleon]

There is a post by PaulC somewhere from last explaining how it worked

[RTHerringbone]

There is a post by PaulC somewhere from last explaining how it worked

I can remember it, but the search function on this forum is cack

[jamez_b]

I can understand setting a PI that overrides a TI, i.e. getting a player to pass more direct in an overall short passing strategy. I also get that for example a Advanced playmaker in most strategies would have mixed passing as default even if the overall team strategy was short passing. That was certainly how it used to work on FM 2013 and by setting him to short passing that would lower the passing slider. What we're saying(pending input from SI) is that hasn't changed it is just under a pass shorter PI rather than a slider?

I personally haven't set too many of my players with PIs for short passing as although that is my overall strategy i want to still have a few players look for the alternate ball over the top.

For me this doubling up of instructions so to speak has mostly been the following:

Close down more PI with hassle opponents TI,

Tight marking PI for all players with tight marking TI

Instructing a Inside forward - attack to run with the ball more.

I don't have any hard evidence to illustrate this but from watching the games it did seem to make a difference in terms of the players actually sticking to the plan a bit more.

[ntw001]

I don't have any hard evidence to illustrate this but from watching the games it did seem to make a difference in terms of the players actually sticking to the plan a bit more.

Me too. I have shorter passing TI and many pass shorter PIs. But what I've noticed is that I need to make sure I put the PIs on the players with more of a defend duty (i.e. my GK, DCs and defensively minded CM) or in the defensive strata with a support / attack duty (i.e. my full backs).

Even with a TI of shorter passing, my defensively minded players, in a deep part of the pitch, will still be tempted to hoof.

The pass shorter PI encourages them to play their way out of trouble.

The best hard evidence I have of this is the GK. Even if you set shorter passing TI, he will still hoof / take long goal kicks. You have to explicitly tell him to pass shorter and distribute to defenders to force him to play from the back.

[RTHerringbone]

The best hard evidence I have of this is the GK. Even if you set shorter passing TI, he will still hoof / take long goal kicks. You have to explicitly tell him to pass shorter and distribute to defenders to force him to play from the back.

That's quite a different circumstance to be fair.

The goalkeeper is the only player with specific distribution settings, so you would expect there to be a tangible impact.

[Dr. Hook]

That's quite a different circumstance to be fair.

The goalkeeper is the only player with specific distribution settings, so you would expect there to be a tangible impact.

And I'll add that if your keeper is hoofing it, check his through balls setting- that got me for a while but once I set it to rarely, I have pretty much stopped (not entirely!) the long balls that go nowhere.

[yonko]

The PI overrides the TI, the base is already set for the role by the strategy/role/duty you use. I don't see it as a flaw because remember TI's set it for all players and not an individual and you might not want every player to be influenced.

This is how it worked for every previous version and I haven't seen SI say this has changed or witnessed this when watching games.

But we didn't have PIs in the previous versions of the game. We had TIs and then we had sliders we could tweak any way we wanted. Visually we have something else now, hence where the confusion comes.

You say "PIs overwrite TIs", ok if one uses "shorter passing" and then "pass it shorter", how is that overwriting? By "overwrite" I understand when the instructions are conflicting - TI "shorter passing" with PI "more direct passing" or vice versa. If both my CMs are set as AP-S, but only one of them has "pass it shorter" (the whole team is set to "shorter passing") then is there a difference in the passing length between the two players? Is one of them passing shorter than the other one?

Add to that "retain possession" which if I'm not mistaken in previous versions also lowered the passing......it raises the question is there compounding effect. So if my team is instructed to "retain possession" + "shorter passing", is there any additional effect to instruct an individual player to "pass it shorter" or is it pointless?

[Cleon]

But we didn't have PIs in the previous versions of the game. We had TIs and then we had sliders we could tweak any way we wanted. Visually we have something else now, hence where the confusion comes.

It was the same thing though, the sliders were the personal instructions for a player and when assigned them it overwrote the team instructions set. It's no different so not sure why you'd be confused.

You say "PIs overwrite TIs", ok if one uses "shorter passing" and then "pass it shorter", how is that overwriting? By "overwrite" I understand when the instructions are conflicting - TI "shorter passing" with PI "more direct passing" or vice versa. If both my CMs are set as AP-S, but only one of them has "pass it shorter" (the whole team is set to "shorter passing") then is there a difference in the passing length between the two players? Is one of them passing shorter than the other one?

Just because you use shorter passing as a TI doesn't mean the role you chosen uses a shorter passing. Remember that the individual instructions a role uses are determines by the strategy you use, the role and the duty. In your example both would be same if it was the same role and duty.

Add to that "retain possession" which if I'm not mistaken in previous versions also lowered the passing......it raises the question is there compounding effect. So if my team is instructed to "retain possession" + "shorter passing", is there any additional effect to instruct an individual player to "pass it shorter" or is it pointless?

It's the same as its always been, if you use PI's then the team instructions that change that setting have no impact and do not work.

Not sure why everyone is suddenly confused by something that hasn't changed. The game still works the same as it did last year and the year before.

PI's are incase you want a player to play different to the rest of the team and tailor him to play a specific way. It really is simple and nothing hidden at all with terms of a doubling effect etc.

[Cleon]

Ok, maybe I'm just being really heavy here but I don't think it's the same thing? Your own example doesn't mention the use of TI 'short passing' as well as PI 'pass shorter'... I think the OP wants clarification on whether two sets of 'pass shorter' instructions, will actually make players pass even shorter than with only one set of pass shorter instructions, no matter what the players base setting is. I don't think the answer to that is entirely clear in your example?

And please, don't ban me or anything if I'm the only one who can't see an apparent logical answer here I'm really just trying to clear this up as I know a LOT of players have been asking questions about this subject for many, many versions of FM

I answered it clearly, I'm not sure how clearer I can be that PI's overwrite any TI instruction. People haven't been asking this for versions either, the answers have been very clear and outlined for years. Not sure why everyone is suddenly confused and thinks the games changed

And I can't ban you, I quit being a mod

[rune_star]

I answered it clearly, I'm not sure how clearer I can be that PI's overwrite any TI instruction. People haven't been asking this for versions either, the answers have been very clear and outlined for years. Not sure why everyone is suddenly confused and thinks the games changed

And I can't ban you, I quit being a mod

HAHA, didn't even realize that Congrats on the extra sparetime that gives you... although THAT is probably already consumed by certain other matters

Anyway, I think the confusion arises when a mod earlier in this very thread states that the effect is relative to each other ('double effect'), or the opposite of what has previously been said. That certainly brought me to the table anyway And the question of what settings (TI vs PI) do what, has been asked on several occasions among others in the 'stupid questions' thread.

But I think we've cleared things up now. Double instructions does NOT have relative effect on each other. Just like in former versions...

[RTHerringbone]

Yeah, it's always my fault

I'm still waiting to hear from an SI bod about this, to completely set my mind straight as much as anything.

Trust me - I have raised the need for things like the absolute meaning of PIs, TIs etc. etc. to be far more clearly described in game.

As much as anything, it'll stop me from talking nonsense in the short term, and will save me from having to do any modding when FM15 comes out.

Anyone who wants to mod the T&TF should apply - they let anyone in

[Guest]

Anyone who wants to mod the T&TF should apply - they let anyone in

I nominate Llama

[yonko]

It was the same thing though, the sliders were the personal instructions for a player and when assigned them it overwrote the team instructions set. It's no different so not sure why you'd be confused.

Just because you use shorter passing as a TI doesn't mean the role you chosen uses a shorter passing. Remember that the individual instructions a role uses are determines by the strategy you use, the role and the duty. In your example both would be same if it was the same role and duty.

It's the same as its always been, if you use PI's then the team instructions that change that setting have no impact and do not work.

Not sure why everyone is suddenly confused by something that hasn't changed. The game still works the same as it did last year and the year before.

PI's are incase you want a player to play different to the rest of the team and tailor him to play a specific way. It really is simple and nothing hidden at all with terms of a doubling effect etc.

I'll tell you where the confusion comes. It comes from lack of visualization. We can't see what the default settings are and we can't see how much they are changed with each instruction. In previous versions we could use the sliders to make one player have the shortest possible passing setting, for example. That's why some of us are wondering if using the same instruction for the team and the player has an effect.

Let's use my example again. 2 CMs both are given AP-S role, only one of them is instructed to pass more direct, while the team is given shorter passing (playing Control/Very Fluid). Would I be right to think that one of the APs will have more direct passing than the other one? Then another example, but this time the team is given more direct passing, while only one of the APs is given shorter passing. In this situation one of them would be passing shorter than the other one, right? Well if it works short-more direct and direct-shorter, then why doesn't it work short-shorter? Logically, it should be if two players have the same role and duty, but one is instructed to pass shorter, then he should regardless of team instructions being also short passing or more direct, i.e it should work both ways.

[rune_star]

Don't think I get that? If your team is on direct, and one of your players is on PI short then the PI player will of course be passing shorter??? And vice versa... What does that have to do with TI shorter + PI shorter? If you don't want your entire team on short passing, then don't use TI short but set PI's on the players that you want to pass shorter? Are you looking for a way to have your team pass short and then individuals to pass even shorter than short?

Not trying to bug you here, but need some clarification

[yonko]

Don't think I get that? If your team is on direct, and one of your players is on PI short then the PI player will of course be passing shorter??? And vice versa... What does that have to do with TI shorter + PI shorter? If you don't want your entire team on short passing, then don't use TI short but set PI's on the players that you want to pass shorter? Are you looking for a way to have your team pass short and then individuals to pass even shorter than short?

Not trying to bug you here, but need some clarification

Yes on the last question. The whole team passes short, but one of the two playmakers (from my example) passes even shorter.

Don't worry, you are not bugging me as I want clarification too.

[RTHerringbone]

Yes on the last question. The whole team passes short, but one of the two playmakers (from my example) passes even shorter.

Don't worry, you are not bugging me as I want clarification too.

I'll chase that clarification......

[yonko]

I'll chase that clarification......

Any update? Have the Gods spoken?

[RTHerringbone]

No, I imagine they are somewhat busy at the moment.

[Mr U Rosler]

Did we ever get a definitive answer on this??

Its quite important really.

[SnUrF]

Did we ever get a definitive answer on this??

Its quite important really.

I believe Cleon was spot on up the thread. It's like in earlier FMs, the PIs are like the sliders in the player instructions (sliders) used to be. The team instructions used to preset the sliders in the player instructions, but then you could go and change the sliders in the player instructions as you felt (thus overwriting the team instructions).

And from that I'd conclude that if one was to set team instruction of shorter passing, then the player instruction for shorter passing should be greyed out.

-SnUrF

[yonko]

I believe Cleon was spot on up the thread. It's like in earlier FMs, the PIs are like the sliders in the player instructions (sliders) used to be. The team instructions used to preset the sliders in the player instructions, but then you could go and change the sliders in the player instructions as you felt (thus overwriting the team instructions).

And from that I'd conclude that if one was to set team instruction of shorter passing, then the player instruction for shorter passing should be greyed out.

-SnUrF

But it isn't greyed out, therefore it raises a question.

[SnUrF]

But it isn't greyed out, therefore it raises a question.

But if I was to take a guess I'd say it's a fault in the UI.

-SnUrF

[Miravlix]

But if I was to take a guess I'd say it's a fault in the UI.

-SnUrF

So if I put Shorter passing PI on some of my players, then enable shorter passing for the whole team, you want it to remove the Shorter passing from all my players or prevent me from setting it, so I'm completely messed up when I remove the shorter passing shout?

That sounds really really bad.