Mentality, Shape and Pitch size.

[MadCatPT]

Hi,

After reading some very helpful stickies and getting my team playing better I still have some doubts.

This is my tactic:

----------------------9.DLF(S)

11.AML(A)----------------------------7.AML(A)

----------------8.BBM(S) 10.AP(A)

----------------------6.DM(D)

3.FB(S)---4.CD(D)-----5.CD(D)---2.FB(S)

1.GK(D)

It has been working well, even if the last three seasons I missed the promotion fight by 3, 2 and 0(head-to-head).

The mentality I have used is Counter and the style is Rigid and the field size is standard with no PI or TI.

Could I gain something by tweaking the mentality, style or field size?

Thanks.

[RTHerringbone]

Which threads did you read to arrive at that system?

You mention doubts, but don't give any specific information, so nobody can really help. You'd need to say how you want to play, what doesn't seem to be working, what sort of goals you score and concede etc.

[MadCatPT]

The shape is manly influenced by the players available to me, some positions were not getting good average ratings or production even when filled by my best players, some of them rated to be playing a league above, so Pairs & Combinations, How to Play FM: Twelve steps, also both of Cleons Counter and Possession threads helped me fix the incorrect roles and removed TI's.

I had a BWM(D) on the DM position, my midfield didn't had anyone going forward so changed a CM(S) to BBM(S) and my forward from a AF(A) to DLF(S), suddenly I started taking less goals, my team played better and my best players started supplying assists and goals.

My team is playing reasonably well and the type of football is what I want for now, we have cover for our defense, when we recover the ball it goes to a winger to dribble down the wings or to the dlf who spreads it to the wings or to the playmaker while the bbm provides a passing outlet or runs to the box opening space for the dlf or playmaker, the fullbacks give a passing outlet for the wingers and playmaker.

I chose Counter because my team was weaker than the adversaries, now I have became stronger, and the biggest difference is that I started winning big against the smaller teams, my form is sometimes mixed against middle and top table teams.

In three seasons only for two times in the league have I suffered more than two goals, I get around 3 or more clear cut chances per game so when my forward players are in form/morale high I can normally get my fair share of wins/draws.

My doubt is can I get at least a home advantage by increasing my pitch to maximum dimensions and take advantage of the pace that I got on the wings?

Do I just increase the size? Do I need PI's/TI's to take advantage?

I remember in older versions that I had an old and slow team, and I used the smallest pitch possible to win against younger and faster teams using my superior technical and mental skills in the reduced space.

This last season I got the best attack, second best defense by a goal and lost out on head-to-head because I lost the two games 1-0.

So I just want to get that extra advantage, I understand that scoring more goals means that I could suffer more, but it seems that I'm unable to win against the top sides, it is in the Portuguese National league, so it's not a big difference in talent.

[RTHerringbone]

Are you using Wingers on Attack on both flanks? It's not clear from the opening post if that's the case, but the latest post makes it sound like you are?

If you are, I'd look to change one of their Roles to something which offers you more central threat and that could give you what you want.

[MadCatPT]

Yes. It seems the spaces where trimmed somehow, I'll edit the post to put it right.

It's a youth save so until some inside forward / wrong footed winger comes along I don't have the personal for it.

Just a doubt, with the DLF and BBM, wouldn't a winger cut inside clash with them?

Is the idea an overload of the middle? Fullbacks getting loads of space on the wings as the fullbacks follow the wingers/inside forwards? Both?

[Keyzer Soze]

This kind interest me.

I've been using a similar setup and got some good results.

DLF(a)

W(s)___________________IF(a)

MC(a)________DLP(s)

DM(d)

FB(s)___DC(d)___DC(d)___FB(s)

Gk(d)

The Winger on support tends to give much space for the Forward runs from the MC.

The winger have "stay wider" instructions by default, but i give him the roam from position instruction just to give him a little more movement.

[MadCatPT]

@Keyzer Soze How is your goal / assist distribution?

Normally I get the DLF(S), both W(A) to get 10+ goals, with both W(A) and AP(A) to get 10+ assists.

My dlf only has 7 finishing, but he's got some good abilities for being with the ball, so normally he or my speed merchant of a left winger who is a professional but has a casual relation with training are my top scorers.

[Keyzer Soze]

Don't have the number with me, but

Main assist comes from the Winger(s). Top goalscorers are the DLF(a) and the IF(a).

I would expect more from my IF(a). I think that the tactic, would work better with a Raumdeuter instead, but the IF(a) give a little more support in the defence duties so that is why my option was for the IF.

On a side note, i'm trying to implement a variation where i change the IF to support and give my right full back attack dutie. I think it could work, manly because i have the support from the DLP(s) in that side of the pitch, but would probably need another adjustments in the tactic.

Just to help a little, i play with these TI:

Mentality: Control

Team Shape: Highly Structured

D-Line Slightly Higher

Width Fairly Narrow

Closing Down Much More

Roam from Positions

Pass into Space

Exploit Flanks

Play out of defence

[kharza_xo]

Fairly new to FM (started in 2015) and trying to come up to speed as quickly as I can. The resources on here rock and I'm slowly starting to see the light on how to create a style of play in the game. I was going to ask my questions in another thread but I saw this and it is eerily similar to what I've been trying to create in the game. I've been attempting to replicate the way BvB play under Tuchel right now. Here is the reference article I've used for the attributes Tuchel's Positional Play at BvB

I've read and re-read all Cleon's and THOG's stuff numerous times and it didn't all start to click until Cleon's Counter and Possession threads (thanks for that btw.. truly eye opening stuff).

So the way I've analyzed the articles and by watching them play I've arrived at some of the following "conclusions" of elements of play I want to implement:

The zones reference splitting the field into 4 zones (instead of thirds): Zone 1 (our box), Zone 2 (edge of our box to midfield), Zone 3 (midfield to top of circle), Zone 4 (opponents box)

1. Medium Block (Line of restraint right where zone 1 and 2 meet)
   
2. Exploit the Counter when it's on
   
3. Counter Press inside opponents half (Zone 3) - Line of confrontation
   
4. Build up play through the left flank
   
5. Flexible single pivot through Weigl in DM-D and Gundogan in DLP-D in a double pivot (when not played as DLP-S)
   
6. Pull the defense out of position to the left and quickly switch to attack on the right through AMR and DR (Pep's Positional Play influence)
   
7. Allow creative freedom especially in the final third
   
8. German type overloading and aggressive movement in the final third
   

Using FMT I've arrived at the following system that comes close to the way I want the team to play (system is close to what you guys appear to be trying to do hence why I thought we could collaborate):

DLF(s)

IF(a)___________________IF(s)

AP(s)________DLP(d)

DM(d)

WB(s)___BPD(d)___DC(d)___FB(a)

Gk(d)

The front 5 all have PI's to close down much more and mark tighter to emulate the German pressing style that BvB have always implemented and do today. I get the 4-1-4-1 look in defense the majority of the time (I've gone back and forth with the DLF(a)/DLF(s) and AML-IF(s)/IF(a) and I've even tried a RMD-a here which worked. The IF(s) drops in more to give that 4-1-4 structure in the back, but I've been surprised how the IF(a) will maintain marking duty on the fullback, but drop in to double if necessary. So I want the elements of an attacking mentality but the extra trigger for counter attacks that using a counter mentality gives me. So comparing the counter and attacking styles from the Lines and Diamonds stuff I need to add a higher d block, a little temp, and a little more aggressive tackling to get the style to contain an attacking style when the counter isn't on (right so I'm trying to bring a counter mentality up to behave like attacking in certain elements, but gain the benefit of the lower trigger point for counter attacks). I'm making the assumption that by playing a counter mentality it will lower the threshold and initiate more counter attacks (which it seems to do), but when the counter attack doesn't materialize or gets bogged down the team will sit back and play a more attacking possession game (call it trying to marry both of Cleon's threads together in a real world example of a style of play). Normal build up should be playing out of the back and trying to emulate the build up style that BvB uses (which works). Have a few other PIs: AMR has sit narrow and DM-D has close down less.

So Team Instructions (playing Counter/Fluid):

1. Retain Possession
   
2. Play out of Defense
   
3. Work Ball Into Box
   
4. Exploit Left Flank (Keep true to BvB style)
   
5. Use Offside Trap
   
6. Roam from Position
   
7. Prevent GK Short
   
8. Dribble Less
   
9. Defense Line Slightly Higher (+1 to get Medium Block)
   
10. Get Stuck In (+1/2 to get more aggressive tackling)
    
11. Higher Tempo
    

All well and good. It works almost exactly the way I want.. counters trigger.. defense is so solid and strong and the build up is patient and the switches of play happen just the way I want.. my problem is I'm having a real hard time replicating the overload in the final third and thus creating chances that come off the normal build up. I will on occasion have the types of moves that I want to see, but only 1 or 2 of them a game (I'm expecting more should I?). The problem that I identify is that the defense gets packed into the box and there isn't any room to work the ball in. The move I want to see is the ball being built up from the left side and then switched through BPD-D, DM-D, or DLP-D to the right side AMR or DR quickly and have them exploit the space created on the right side. This works perfect and happens a ton. That seems to be where I get bogged down. I've changed around the AP-S to AP-A, tried CM-A, all kinds of things to try and get it so that the defense gets drawn out of the left side top of the box to open up a shot for the CML. I've had the DR set to cutback and the AMR or DLP-D do sit in a nice support position and the DM-D is sitting deep ready to switch that in but there really isn't the space we need around the top of the box to create the attacking move I'm looking for. I'm just starting to grasp the various roles and how they behave and would love some thoughts on how to tweak them. I think I need a late runner into the box on the left side after the switch comes back around because that is the space that should be open. I just can't figure out the tweak to the CML role to make that happen (started training late run into box PPM hoping that might help). Would a BBM work here from the CML (that is what my gut is telling me but haven't had a chance to try yet)? What would that do to my build up in terms of keep the midfield triangle? I still don't quite grasp how to create that high intensity movement based action in the final third I'm looking for..

Thanks in advance

[MadCatPT]

@Keyzer Soze Sometimes is limitations on the player, pitch conditions, marking. Don't forget for example that players with low bravery sometimes are "scared away" from strong agressive players on hard tackling.

I am not investing all in the game at the moment due to work, other hobbies and getting a kick out of seing the young'uns growing.

I learned with Cleon that TI's sometimes are not what it says on the tin, so I put them off and am trying to just use roles that adjust to players and ppms.

The right ppm makes a big difference in getting more out of the player.

@kharza_xo I think you should create your own thread, people clicking here are clicking for a different reason that getting the german high press working. You'll get more help that way.

I think Cleon said that the Kloppen high pressing is not possible to implement due to engine limitations, I don't know if that's what you want, but I think that are some threads about that.

From my limited experience, I just use a Instant Result skin and sometimes check played game to see if everything is going ok, even if use a shape like mine, what you want is different.

My idea is of a team that is more reserved on the defense and gets outlets to quickly gain meters on the transitions with outlets on the wings and on the middle with two players on different stratas searching for space (dlf and ap). So no high pressing to capitalize on errors high on the pitch.

You talk about overload but you have an DLP and a AP on the midfield, those time of players normally search for spaces, and the dlp drops back. Some ppm or PI's maybe help them get forward.

Other point is one that Cleon stresses, is you want one thing and are telling the team other, if you want the team passing the ball around searching for an opening is done with low tempo.

High tempo is for quick, risky passes trying to quickly do something.

Hope I could help but create your own thread and I'm sure more knowledgeable people the me will help you.