What has happened to the match engine?

[Lillywhite Dean]

Dear SI.

I downloaded Football Manager Touch 16 on my Samsung Galaxy Pro 8.4 last night. I did this after finally ending my successful career on Football Manager Classic 15; a game I thoroughly enjoyed.

One of the features key to my enjoyment of FMC15 was the match engine. I thought that given I was playing a near PC version of FM on tablet, the match engine, specifically the engines graphics and visuals, offered a decent sense of realism.

I was therefore eager to see how the match engine had evolved for FMT16.

I started a career with New York City FC; made some changes to my staff and then fired up my first pre-season friendly.

The players kicked off and I was somewhat unimpressed by the match being played out in front of me. Something didn't look right. The players looked stocky, squashed and even a little overweight! The match also had a very dated feel to it - like I was watching a friend play an early 16 bit SNES football game. I guess my expectations were a little high but I wasn't expecting high-quality PC visuals. Having played around with the different camera angles, I came to the conclusion that the match engine, in a visual sense, has taken a step backwards. It certainly doesn't seem to have that free-flowing feel that FMC15 had, and the player animations, pitch effects and stadium detail just seemed really poor looking.

Obviously it is still early days before I can give an overall assessment of the game; and maybe I will start to notice improvements to the match engine as I become more used to it, but there doesn't seem to be an obvious improvement on FMC15 – not in a visual sense anyway.

Does anyone else agree?

[Gerara]

I agree with you. The match engine looks broken. I have very bad results compared to the PC version by using exactly the same tactics with the same players. Don't say that I am wrong SI people but FMT for tablets version is seriously bugged.

[RTHerringbone]

I agree with you. The match engine looks broken. I have very bad results compared to the PC version by using exactly the same tactics with the same players. Don't say that I am wrong SI people but FMT for tablets version is seriously bugged.

I'm not an SI person. You're wrong - it has the same ME.

[Lillywhite Dean]

I just played a game where the pitch looked awful. In the first half the pitch was a really dark green colour and then in the second half, the pitch was this horrible bright illuminated yellow/green colour. I might have to post something in the bugs thread.

[aaron1606]

I just played a game where the pitch looked awful. In the first half the pitch was a really dark green colour and then in the second half, the pitch was this horrible bright illuminated yellow/green colour. I might have to post something in the bugs thread.

Sounds like a bug.

[thesandman]

I'm not an SI person. You're wrong - it has the same ME.

Yeah, a really frustrating one.

Without teamtalks it's a nightmare on iPad. It's clearly a requirement.

The worst situation to be in for a strong team?

When the pre-match guff says you're a red hot favourite at home. Usually results in me getting absolutely battered or scraping a lucky draw.

Being 2-0 up at half time. I'd rather be 1-0 down. Seems like the team sits down and decides to smoke cigars, and without the team talk "don't have three pints at half time", I feel powerless to stop it.

[RTHerringbone]

Team talks definitely are not a requirement, if anything your experience hints at a tactical issue. First it's about how open your tactic is, second it's about what you do (or don't do) when 2-0 becomes 2-1.

[Bobsled]

I love not having the teamtalks. I now completely rely on doing the right tactical tweaks and substitutions instead of losing because I angered my team again.

Are teamtalks in FMT on the PC then? Because I was thinking about starting to use the cross-save function.

[HUNT3R]

Are teamtalks in FMT on the PC then? Because I was thinking about starting to use the cross-save function.

FMT is the same on all platforms. If it was in on PC, it would defeat the purpose of cross-saving and even FMT, to streamline the experience.

[thesandman]

Team talks definitely are not a requirement, if anything your experience hints at a tactical issue. First it's about how open your tactic is, second it's about what you do (or don't do) when 2-0 becomes 2-1.

How come my tactics that are absolutely dominating the game in the first half are woeful in the second?

I've checked and the opp have made no changes that I can see to their tactics. So I go from absolutely battering them to being useless with identical tactics?

[HUNT3R]

How come my tactics that are absolutely dominating the game in the first half are woeful in the second?

I've checked and the opp have made no changes that I can see to their tactics. So I go from absolutely battering them to being useless with identical tactics?

The opposition will change the way they play even if the formation doesn't change. Most teams will try and get back into the game even at 2-0 down. If you score again, they should shut up shop. If they score, they'll smell blood and either stay like that or go even more attacking.

[tyro]

That is hard to believe that they don't make any changes.

I have the opponent formation widget open at all times, and I can see the AI change the formation or player duties several times a match. They definitely are changing something if they are behind. What would you do when you are down 2-0? You probably change to attacking and try to get something out of the game? I think the AI does that too.

[thesandman]

That is hard to believe that they don't make any changes.

I have the opponent formation widget open at all times, and I can see the AI change the formation or player duties several times a match. They definitely are changing something if they are behind. What would you do when you are down 2-0? You probably change to attacking and try to get something out of the game? I think the AI does that too.

I can't find the "swear at all the players and tell them they're useless" button....

[BoxToBox]

That is hard to believe that they don't make any changes.

I have the opponent formation widget open at all times, and I can see the AI change the formation or player duties several times a match. They definitely are changing something if they are behind. What would you do when you are down 2-0? You probably change to attacking and try to get something out of the game? I think the AI does that too.

Absolutely, always have the oppo formation on show, so I can quickly asses any changes they make.

It's also amazing to watch a weaker opposition who score an early goal to go 0-1 up against you instantly shut up shop completely and park 10 behind the ball. I find that the biggest challenge, to break these teams down and get back into the game. I know if I manage it though, I'll usually get the win.

[thesandman]

Absolutely, always have the oppo formation on show, so I can quickly asses any changes they make.

It's also amazing to watch a weaker opposition who score an early goal to go 0-1 up against you instantly shut up shop completely and park 10 behind the ball. I find that the biggest challenge, to break these teams down and get back into the game. I know if I manage it though, I'll usually get the win.

It's not just the formation though is it? Quite often the formation never changes, and there are no subs. But after half time it's like two different sides have taken the field.

It's OK during the game when you get something like "XYZ are pushing players forward" or something like that so that you at least get a clue that something has changed - or a sub is made etc.

Perhaps they have made changes - but what? Do I just guess what changes have been made? It's the lack of feedback that makes it so difficult - and I find it hard to believe that a slight tactical tweak inside the same formation makes the opposition into Messi clones, and my guys into a team of Titus Brambles (on a bad day) half way through the game.

[thesandman]

In short, I guess it's the invisibility of what has suddenly changed to turn the game on its head that I find frustrating.

[tyro]

By having the formation widget up, even if they stick to the same formation, you can see changes in their duties. Suddenly the right winger shows more forward. This gives you an indication.

[aaron1606]

In short, I guess it's the invisibility of what has suddenly changed to turn the game on its head that I find frustrating.

How would you propose we solve that? After all, it's not like a real life manager would make tactical changes, then run over to the opposition dugout to explain what he'd done.

[Jari Rantanen\'s Shorts]

There are two things that i think could be improved:

feedback levels according to the level of highlghts, so watching key highlights you would get more of an idea what changes the AI has made, as you don't see the level of action that you with full match or comprehensive. I've had significantly better results after reading a couple of threads in the tactics forum, and watching on full/comprehensive as you can watch and react. But not sure I want to play like that - beats the point of FMT to a degree. Improved feedback would help in this regard.

The other is the descriptions of the tactical options. Although the tool tip descriptions generally match what I would have thought the instructions mean, from reading the tactics threads referenced above, it would appear than many of them do not have the effect that would seem to be obvious and the tool tips suggest. A fuller and more accurate description of the likely effects of the changes we make would reduce the frustration of feeling helpless, which I had before reading the tactics forum. Having to find out what things do on a forum (not how to play, just what instructions actually do) instead of, and in contradiction to, the game cannot indicate a successful in-game help system

[Lillywhite Dean]

How would you propose we solve that? After all, it's not like a real life manager would make tactical changes, then run over to the opposition dugout to explain what he'd done.

[Jari Rantanen\'s Shorts]

How would you propose we solve that? After all, it's not like a real life manager would make tactical changes, then run over to the opposition dugout to explain what he'd done.

It is indeed a great point. At the same time, as I stated above, IRL a manager watches every second of the match and can see with his own eyes what is happening, and react accordingly. On every highlight type other than 'Full match', in FM this isn't the case, and therefore more information is required, and the fewer the highlights, the more frequent this advice really needs to be. Otherwise in essence the game is forcing you to watch the entire match to be able to get the most out of it.

I have found to be fair that Comprehensive highlights are pretty much as good as Full Match, but I will likely lose a little interest playing this way as I don't have time to play as much as I would like, and moving forward 10-20 matches in one session is just not possible watching on Comprehensive, and I thought was the main point of FMT?

Therefore surely an answer that suits everyone is that when watching full highlights, you get minimal advice (note the AssMan and the manager do talk IRL as well, so some advice is still OK?) but watching on 'Key' highlights only a more detailed description of changes made happens - maybe a couple of minutes after the AI makes them so that it is not perfect knowledge which is indeed unrealistic.

That way Lilywhite can keep applauding and playing his way, and those with less free time or playing for the first time can still enjoy the game fully which comes with having a better feel for what is happening

[Guest]

How do you get that more detailed description to be relevant without slowing down the speed that the match is played at between highlights? To make the feedback accurate it would have to be close to real time to allow the user enough time to process the information & decide what to do with it.

One tool that is already available to the user is what screens that have on display between highlights, within the current options there should be an ideal one for everyone.

[thesandman]

How would you propose we solve that? After all, it's not like a real life manager would make tactical changes, then run over to the opposition dugout to explain what he'd done.

I don't really think there's any need for sarcasm. This isn't real life is it?

If it was real life, UEFA wouldn't forget to draw or play the Champions League like has just happened in my game.

Shall I go through everything in the game that isn't exactly the same as real life as a response?

It's already handled now during the half with reports and comments, things like "it looks like Scunthorpe are committing more players forwards" and comments like that.

Why not do something similar at the start of the half. "It looks like Bury are lining up in a more attacking formation" or whatever.

I have the formation widget showing. Nothing has changed from the opponents formation. Yet my team which has absolutely battered the opponents for the first half, are now playing like chimps, and the opponents have come out and are playing like Barca on steroids.

How on earth am I supposed to work out what's changed? From the feedback the game gives me.

As you say. It's not real life. I can't pick up the slight changes you can see when watching a live game. I need to rely on the feedback the game gives me.

If it's giving me nothing different - but the outcomes are vastly different to what they were before half time - what am I supposed to do?

What would I do in real life?

Go in 2-0 up against the team bottom of the ladder and say "Christ lads, I know we're 2 up, I know we've had 60% of possession, they've only had one chance and you're playing them off the park - but better batten down the hatches, their manager might make an invisible tweak - Park the bus, it's panic stations".

[HUNT3R]

The draws that do not happen is not programmed into the game. That's quite possibly another issue, like your anti-virus deleting temp files with FM open.

The ME playing out in front of you is a great indicator. You'll see players taking more risks with runs forward. You'll see more players doing it.

There's also just pure logic. If you're 2-0 up at half-time, for instance, you know they will at some point try and get back into it. Maybe even straight after half-time. Why not do something about it before they do? That way you'll be ready.

[thesandman]

The draws that do not happen is not programmed into the game. That's quite possibly another issue, like your anti-virus deleting temp files with FM open.

I've only played this game on an iPad.

I have created a bug issue and uploaded my save game.

The ME playing out in front of you is a great indicator. You'll see players taking more risks with runs forward. You'll see more players doing it.

There's also just pure logic. If you're 2-0 up at half-time, for instance, you know they will at some point try and get back into it. Maybe even straight after half-time. Why not do something about it before they do? That way you'll be ready.

Ok. Do what?

Just guess? Play rock, paper scissors?

What if I'm playing counter. Shall I go super aggressive?

No, that would be dumb. Of course they're going to try and get back in the game.

Go super defensive?

Yeah of course. That's what everybody does when they're hammering the opposition. Batten down the hatches.

Your logic is not really "pure logic". You've picked a successful line up and tactics. You are smashing the opposition. Your team is playing fantastically well. The opposition are rubbish.

So. Change it?

Change for changes sake is guessing. Just a fancy version of rock, paper scissors.

Before the game you look at the opponents, what has worked against, what hasn't. The logic is then change that, because it's worked too well??

Yeah, I appreciate it's a tactics thing.

The point that is being lost here is the feedback the game gives you. I'm given something before the game.

My tactics work. I'm all over the opponents.

Therefore, everything I've assumed up until now has worked.

So, the suggestion here is that I should now throw all that out the window?

[HUNT3R]

If it's an iPad thing, fair enough. SI can take a look at it.

You're 'smashing' them while they're currently set up as they are. When they throw men forward, that's a different setup and one you may not be able to cope against.

What do you do with information that the opposition are now more attacking? The same principle applies. Whether you know it's going to happen (we all would go more attacking to get back into a lost game) or you're just guessing that they will, you still need to make changes. Whether you get a message that the opposition are throwing numbers forward or not, you still need to know what to do. How does getting that message improve your ability to defend it?

If you're playing on the counter, you shouldn't need to change much at all. Then there are other issues. Why not just ask advice in the Tactics forum?

I'll add that if you can suggest a way to implement it, SI will listen to it. You don't get that sort of feedback IRL (unless maybe from your assistant?) so it's difficult to think of something that's realistic enough to implement.

[Lucas]

So, the suggestion here is that I should now throw all that out the window?

No, but there are choices that you make just as there are choices that the AI make based on the given situation.

This also extends to a point to the way that you choose to play the game as well, with different levels of detail depending on your settings (all the way from Comprehensive, to Instant Resulting).

The feedback is there, perhaps there can be improvements (if you can think of any, let us know), its how you choose to use that information, and any observational evidence you've discovered (like a particular player being prone to complacency, or low determination).

I'd interested to know what exactly you think could be improved but bear in mind a detailed game / simulation is always going to present a challenge of sorts, taking away the AI ability to make the same decisions a human might make and you may as well just have a app that just has a "click to win" button.

[HUNT3R]

In short, I guess it's the invisibility of what has suddenly changed to turn the game on its head that I find frustrating.

This is what the main point was before the little episode. It's a valid point and probably something that can somehow be incorporated into the assistant's feedback.

The little rant about guessing has less traction, imo, of course. You can't be given exactly what they're doing. You can't be told exactly what to do. It's also going to be very hard to implement with the incredible amount of variables in your own and the AI's tactical setups. It's up to you to decide what to do. I'm still very much in favour of being prepared and making changes before the opposition throw men forward. Yes, you won't set up specifically to defend against that team and system, but a proper setup can still do very well.