Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 (Very Fluid)

[glynnbob]

okay so ive had a little play around with this and ive managed to get all the attributes etc listed on the screen and saed it however there is a gap in between the atts. of about 1-2 cms on each attb. ive tried rearranging them and lining em up again but I cant get them all condensed on one screen like your above picture please help anyone!!!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Sounds like you just need to adjust the width of the columns on the toolbar?

[Bigpapa42]

1 hour ago, MrMourinho said:

Would you like to share your roles and duties plus your T.I. and P.I? I am also thinking of a 4-1-4-1 and curious of your ideas.

Sure, don't mind. The basic concept is what Ozil laid out here - its a 4-1-4-1 DM with Standard mentality and Very Fluid Team Shape. The Instructions I use are Higher Defensive Line, Offside Trap, Much More Closing Down, Tighter Marking, Play Out of Defense, Low Crosses and Pass Into Space.

A key of adapting the ideas rather than simply using what was presented is looking at the Team Instructions and considering what they are doing and whether that helps or not with my squad. I view TIs as tweaks, and I can tweak to suit the situation, even throughout a match. I was a concerned with pushing the defensive line up that high, since I don't have particularly fast central defenders. But the DM pushes the line back a bit, as Ozil mentioned, and using the offside trap sees a lot of potential counter attacks snuffed out that way. I will give up a few counters, so the defense isn't as tight as with Ozil's Milan, but its a tradeoff for the talent I have. I do drop the line and even mentality sometimes to kill off a match, but I'm just as likely to drop the Pass Into space and go with Retain Possession. I was actually going to go without Pass Into Space, but I find it makes for some quick attacks at times, almost like having a high tempo despite not putting the tempo up. Play out of Defense works well for me since I have two central defenders who are very good on the ball. I used Mixed crosses initially but realized my strikers (not all of whom are ideal headers anyway) weren't always the ones getting onto the end of the crosses - it was just as often wingers or the CM.

As for roles and duties as well as PIs...

GK Defend - have Throw It Long, Distribute Quickly, and Distribute to FBs

LB - FB Support/Attack - a bit more conservative on this side as the wide midfielder are more attacking players so they are less capable of helping out defensively

CB - CD Defend - could go to BPD but honestly, both tend to see the ball plenty anyway - my better DC often has 50 touches or more

RB - WB Attack

DM - DM-Defend - could also go to Anchor Man. Would get switched between Defend and Support at times.

LW - Winger Attack - I like the WM role and would probably use it on both sides but my primary right winters are more suited to this role, and it tends to work very well

CM - DLP-S - frequently got ratings between 8 and 9. Often got 8s even when I had to less suited players to the role. Tons of touches and often in space to make a decent pass. A very creative player with good overall skills would be truly devastating here. Would get 100-plus touches in some matches.

CM - CM-Support - like the DM, the actual duty would get adjusted

RW - WM-Attack - I have a more rounded player here so this side contributes a bit as a whole

ST - CF-Support - only had a few matches where the striker was isolated and didn't do much. I considered toying with a DLF role as it might link up nicely but even the forwards who aren't rated to play as a CF seemed to work effectively so I ended up just leaving it.

One thing that did I helped, I think, was that I was more likely than normal to tweak and adjust. Not big things, but switching up roles or more often just duties, adding or dropping a TI at times. Later in the season, I used Quick Result a bit more and so any tweaks were prior to the match. The only match I can recall where I actually changed the Mentality was in the Zenit win I mentioned before, as after I went up by a goal, I dropped it down to Counter. Then adjusted some duties and it helped me gradually see out the match.

One thing I wanted to toy with but never did was a more attack version of the 4-1-4-1, with the DM being the DLP and using a CM and a B2B in the two CM slots.

[glynnbob]

Sorry ozil how do I adjust the width of the columns on the toolbar mate

[Jessan]

When adapting this system to a 4-2-3-1, would it be enough to push the Winger attack up a row and put him as a Winger support and do the same with the Wide Midfielder attack and put him on Inside Forward support?  Would I need to tweak anything else since we would be leaving more space on the wings for the opponent to use or is it more of a risk/reward kinda thing?

 

Also has anyone else been getting inconsistent performances from their striker?  Mine seems to get either a 8+ rating or he drops below 6.5?

Edited August 29, 2016 by Jessan

[Bigpapa42]

Putting the two wide midfielders into the AM strata would change the way it works. Part of what makes this effective in a 4-2-2 (or the 4-1-4-1) is that you have two banks of four players defending, and its naturally hard to break down, even moreso when the players start stepping up to press the opposition. With the players in the AM strata instead, the defensive shape is less defensive and even on support roles, those wingers don't move back as much when defending. That is going to make that aspect less effective. Having the players start further up the pitch might help in attack, but honestly, I found the wide midfielders to be very effective in that regard even starting deeper.

As for the striker, I found that my striker got low ratings pretty rarely. It usually came down to be isolated because my team wasn't moving the ball forward enough (not that common and usually only around 6.5) or missing good chances (having an off day, could be closer to 6.0).

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by Bigpapa42

[Jessan]

Yeah, I switched to a 4-4-1-1 after tinkering a bit with the 4-2-3-1, it wasn't bad, but wasn't working the way it should and the moment I switched to 4-4-1-1 everything just seemed to click.  I wanted a 4-2-3-1 cause I had an amazing inside forward but he is tearing it up in the WM spot atm, even though he "can't" play there, only has 2 red stripes in the circle, but averaging a 8.37 with 3 goals and 5 assists in 6 matches.  As for the striker, I had to bench him because he was averaging 6.09 after 3 matches and I can't figure out why, he receives a decent amount of passes so he is involved in play, he gets of a fair amount of shots with about 50% on target but he hasn't scored yet.  However I don't think that not scoring would tank his rating that hard.  He is a new signing so I'll try him again later in the season.

 

But Legion has launched so fm has to take the backseat for now.

[arsenal3459]

I posted earlier about how much fun this tactical setup has been on a similar Milan save, and I want to damn you and thank you again.

This tactic has worked with everything from Mexican Promotion sides to the MLS, and of course Arsenal.  It can sometimes take me two transfer windows to get there, but almost no matter what (and with very little tweaking) your style of play has worked wonders.

The problem is that I'm cursed! Can't create my own tactic now, because I cant help but want to revert to a very fluid system like this. And the front six press the ball perfectly.

 

If I can somehow shake this, I'll make sure and report back with a very fluid system of my own. Appreciate your work!

[Bigpapa42]

Just a small update. Halfway thru season 2 with Lokomotiv and just flying. Biggest moment of the season - and probably the save so far - was a 4-0 home win over Borussia Dortmund in the Champions League Group Stage. Lost 1-0 away to Roma in the first CL match and expected to get smashed by Dortmund, who finished second in the Bundesliga and look as strong as you would expect. Just killed them on the counter, but I didn't tweak the tactic at all for the match. That said, I find tweaking roles to suit the player a bit and situation can help.

[Deego619]

On 8/30/2016 at 15:46, Bigpapa42 said:

Putting the two wide midfielders into the AM strata would change the way it works. Part of what makes this effective in a 4-2-2 (or the 4-1-4-1) is that you have two banks of four players defending, and its naturally hard to break down, even moreso when the players start stepping up to press the opposition. With the players in the AM strata instead, the defensive shape is less defensive and even on support roles, those wingers don't move back as much when defending. That is going to make that aspect less effective. Having the players start further up the pitch might help in attack, but honestly, I found the wide midfielders to be very effective in that regard even starting deeper.

As for the striker, I found that my striker got low ratings pretty rarely. It usually came down to be isolated because my team wasn't moving the ball forward enough (not that common and usually only around 6.5) or missing good chances (having an off day, could be closer to 6.0).

 

Whilst what you say is correct, I find that having players in the AM strata in this style is extremely helpful is certain situations. 

I was noticing in my 4-4-2 that despite having a nice, clean shape, that when the opposition were using narrow formations that they could pick me apart. By controlling the middle, my wide players would use the aggressive closing down that this system entails to chase after the ball, often leaving a rampaging wing back free. You can see where this is going. Pin point early cross, somehow finds the striker outnumbered 5-1 in the box, goal. It happened so many times that I swapped the system around to the aggressive 4-2-3-1.

Lo and behold, the wing backs stopped rampaging forward, the opposition had nowhere to pass the ball when pressed in the middle and thus I was winning more possession without any noticeable differences in my defensive weaknesses. The goals I was conceding were the same type of goals I'd concede using a 4-4-2 (striker outpacing a highly positioned CB from time to time).

[worion]

For your key attributes, I didn't see aggression, bravery or tackling listed. For a side trying to win the ball back high up the pitch, is workrate still more inportant? How many of your midfielders score high in those catergories?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

In an ideal world, I would love those attributes however I prioritise work-rate and technical ability and rarely see players with such broad skill sets. For example, I'd love a 'Vidal'..

[poma]

On 8/28/2016 at 22:45, Bigpapa42 said:

 

Quote

 

LB - FB Support/Attack - a bit more conservative on this side as the wide midfielder are more attacking players so they are less capable of helping out defensively

"LW - Winger Attack - I like the WM role and would probably use it on both sides but my primary right winters are more suited to this role, and it tends to work very well"

 

Confusing; you say wide midfielder but have a winger on attack?

Quote

 

RB - WB Attack

RW - WM-Attack - I have a more rounded player here so this side contributes a bit as a whole

 

Seems to me that this side is wide open with two player on attack duty?

 

Edited September 5, 2016 by poma

[Bigpapa42]

Apologies for the lack of clarity, Poma. Regarding the LW, I meant that I prefer to use the Wide Midfielder role, as I feel it creates me a bit more defensive stability. However, the player I was using as my primary left winger at that point was a fairly one-dimensional attacking player, and he seemed to do better set as a winger.

As for the two attacking players on the right side, I do use that but only occasionally. I should have explained a bit further but was leery of a wall of text. I listed the roles and duties I had at that particular time, but should have explained in more detail as I change the personnel for almost every single match - part of trying to deal with a slightly bloated squad with some young players who need match-time. In addition, I change up the roles and duties of the four wide players almost every single match. The roles and duties for the rest of the side change far less frequently, usually to counter particular threats. I'll adjust the wide players based on the players selected and the opposition. Generally speaking, I would go for balance - one attacking role and one support role on each side. I might go conservative against strong opposition, But I do also go that open against some opposition. Its largely down to the club and league I'm using - Lokomotiv Moscow in the Russia Premier League. The RPL has a similar dynamic you find in leagues below the best, and especially in Eastern Europe, where there is a wide gap in quality between the top clubs and the bottom. The top clubs are probably similar to mid to lower Prem clubs in terms of player quality, but the bottom clubs are probably akin to League One or League Two clubs. The weakest clubs really don't tend to have the ability to threaten all that much - you won't get a resolute defensive performances against you very often because they don't have many hard-working, professional, and determined players like you often find in the bottom clubs in the Prem, Bundesliga, etc. They also don't have great managers. I don't need to go overtly aggressive against these sides to get a result, but I've rarely been burned by it and if they are already low on the table, I like that if you can hit them for a couple of goals early in the match, it often turns into a glut. Which is always fun.

I probably do more role & duty switching to accommodate personnel, however. My former key right winger has lost his pace badly so while he was previously very effective as an attacking wide midfielder, I've scaled him back to support at most, because I don't want him caught as far up the pitch. I've been giving matches to a promising 17 year old DM that came thru my academy, so I might go more conservative on the wings to assist him, even if the opposition doesn't truly require it.

Adjustments to the roles and duties in-match are also frequent, although I've used Instant Result a bit more than intended of late.

[poma]

On 9/7/2016 at 05:35, Bigpapa42 said:

Apologies for the lack of clarity, Poma. Regarding the LW, I meant that I prefer to use the Wide Midfielder role, as I feel it creates me a bit more defensive stability. However, the player I was using as my primary left winger at that point was a fairly one-dimensional attacking player, and he seemed to do better set as a winger.

As for the two attacking players on the right side, I do use that but only occasionally. I should have explained a bit further but was leery of a wall of text. I listed the roles and duties I had at that particular time, but should have explained in more detail as I change the personnel for almost every single match - part of trying to deal with a slightly bloated squad with some young players who need match-time. In addition, I change up the roles and duties of the four wide players almost every single match. The roles and duties for the rest of the side change far less frequently, usually to counter particular threats. I'll adjust the wide players based on the players selected and the opposition. Generally speaking, I would go for balance - one attacking role and one support role on each side. I might go conservative against strong opposition, But I do also go that open against some opposition. Its largely down to the club and league I'm using - Lokomotiv Moscow in the Russia Premier League. The RPL has a similar dynamic you find in leagues below the best, and especially in Eastern Europe, where there is a wide gap in quality between the top clubs and the bottom. The top clubs are probably similar to mid to lower Prem clubs in terms of player quality, but the bottom clubs are probably akin to League One or League Two clubs. The weakest clubs really don't tend to have the ability to threaten all that much - you won't get a resolute defensive performances against you very often because they don't have many hard-working, professional, and determined players like you often find in the bottom clubs in the Prem, Bundesliga, etc. They also don't have great managers. I don't need to go overtly aggressive against these sides to get a result, but I've rarely been burned by it and if they are already low on the table, I like that if you can hit them for a couple of goals early in the match, it often turns into a glut. Which is always fun.

I probably do more role & duty switching to accommodate personnel, however. My former key right winger has lost his pace badly so while he was previously very effective as an attacking wide midfielder, I've scaled him back to support at most, because I don't want him caught as far up the pitch. I've been giving matches to a promising 17 year old DM that came thru my academy, so I might go more conservative on the wings to assist him, even if the opposition doesn't truly require it.

Adjustments to the roles and duties in-match are also frequent, although I've used Instant Result a bit more than intended of late.

Thanx

[Bigpapa42]

Started a new save with the same club and still using the same approach to great effect. Ozil, I think you've made me fall in love with a Very Fluid, at least in FM16. The players can produce some wonderful open football when given the freedom, yet its not wide open and constantly getting carved open in return. Don't think I can embed it, but link below is a clip of a goal my side scored from a match I played last night - lovely quick one-touch passing sequence against Real Madrid, who massively outclass me and who I somehow beat 3-0 at home in the second season. Shock result - its not an uber-tactic that can have minnows killing monster clubs all the time, but it does seem to allow the players to perform to their abilities.

Goal Video

I'm keen to try it with some other clubs and maybe even with other formations, but I also want to keep going with this save. The vexing nature of FMing....

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Great stuff! Lovely goal. Making the Real Madrid defence look amateur there!

[felley]

Hey Özil. 

Just dropping by to say thanks for writing this series of articles recently. Genuinely awesome stuff and the best tactical writing during FM16 in my opinion.

I've been using a different shape altogether to your one, but as I wanted to achieve a similarly intense press, I have adopted your idea of using the combination of "Standard" and "Very Fluid". Simply put, it works a treat and - as you describe with effortless logic in this thread - replicates the exact sort of full-team pressing game that I was looking for. They move as one, attack as one, defend as one, stay compact... the price to pay is a few odd decisions from more defensive players, but I'm managing a rubbish team in the depths of Romania so I can get over that.

Thanks once again for sharing. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

You're welcome. Thank you for the feedback. 

[Bigpapa42]

Hope you don't mind me talking a bit more about the version I'm using, Ozil. I did keep going with the Loko save til the end of season 2. I finally make a tweak to the 4-1-4-1 version I'm using - turning the right CM from CM-S (the duty would get switched on occasion) to a B2B. Meant to try it for the longest time but just never did. The CMs I've been using aren't really any more suited to B2B than CM - they aren't rampaging stamina monsters who can run for days. But they have reasonable overall skills. I only tried it for a few games at the end of the second season and I mostly used Instant Result. But the players in the B2B role scored in almost all of the matches. I would have to watch thru to see if it negatively affected the defensively stability at all, but didn't leak goals in those matches. It was a couple of different players used and one of them - an Algerian regen without much for finishing - did well enough as the CM-S but managed to score as a B2B. Just getting further forward more frequently, I think.

If I'm interpreting the roles correctly, a CM-A will similarly get forward but won' t be coming back as much to help out defensively as the B2B.

A tweak I still want to try but really haven't is a more attacking version (I think it would be) from switching up the 3 midfield roles. If I had a good creative DM, I want to try the DLP there, with probably a B2B and CM-S (or even CM-A) ahead of them. Unfortunately, the DMs I have just aren't the type to make that work.

I'm enjoying the Very Fluid approach enough that I'm almost loathe to switch over to FM17 when it comes out.

[JoeLapira]

I was using a 4-4-2 tactic with Roma in my Journeyman save but i was struggling to find any consistency. Then i came across this thread and after a 3-1 defeat to Palermo i decided to switch to Very Fluid and since then I have won all 8 games, scoring 3 or more goals in all but one of the games. One thing though is we have failed to keep a clean sheet since i made the change and im wondering is there anything that can be done tactically to improve things defensively?

[Bigpapa42]

First thing to look at is where the goals are coming from. There are multiple possible solutions but its far more effective to try something that directly impacts how the goals are being scored rather than just trying anything to fix it.

If you are using the line pushed up really high, you are going to be somewhat susceptible to balls over the top, especially if you have slower defenders.

[JoeLapira]

We've conceded 12 in the last 8 games and to be honest they have been a mix of goals; set pieces, crosses, through balls. We're banging in the goals so it's not too much of a concern at the minute. Gonna try out a B2B in midfield to see if offers a little more support defensively than my CM(s). 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Box-to-box midfielder actually offers less stability than the Central Midfielder (Support). They're very similar roles apart from the B2B roams from position.

Look at your defenders. They need to be quick, intelligent and ideally reasonably proficient technically. Slower, less mobile defenders will be exposed horribly by the high line.

[JoeLapira]

Having examined my defenders more closely i discovered there was one slight weakness in terms of the attributes you mentioned above Ozil. One of my first choice CB's was a little on the slow side and not the most technically gifted. So with a bank balance of 45 million i spent the final few days of the Janurary Transfer window seeking out a defender try and help solve my problem. Up stepped Jonathan Tah; Ivory Coast captain who had fallen out of favour with Allegri at Chelsea. He was quick, strong, intelligent and very good on the ball, 30 million plus addons and he was a Roma player. I've had him play 3 games so far and in the 3rd game we finally kept a clean sheet. But also, we only conceded a goal in each of the other games, one from the penalty spot and one from a brilliantly struck free kick. So no goals from open play since Tah joined, which is already an improvement.

Thanks lads for the advice and congrats on what is a super tactic which has helped drive me to the top of Serie A.

[Bigpapa42]

Tah is a good signing.

Been itching to try this approach with another club. Keep looking at different saves and started up with clubs in the Prem, Championship, Serie A, Bundesliga, Eredivisie.... but haven't got anywhere until I randomly decided to try Bournemouth. Post summer transfer so they have Wilshere, who should be an excellent DLP. The 4-1-4-1 version has been really outstanding so far - undefeated into October, though that is largely down to avoiding any big clubs in early season fixtures. Bennik Afobe has been outstanding as the Complete Forward, scoring 8 in 6 so far, plus another 3 or 4 goals in the Capital One Cup matches. Using the B2B role instead of the CM-S put will probably switch it up for bigger opponents. A bit odd that the B2B is often getting more touches than the DLP, and the striker is getting quite a lot as well. With Loko, the DLP definitely had the most touches on a consistent basis.

Part of why I wanted to try another save was to see how this approach worked with a club at another level - either much worse or notably better than Lokomotiv Moscow. Kinda ironic I ended up with Bournemouth, who are better but not by a significant margin. If this can have these players playing sweet flowing football so well, I can only imagine what an even more talented and technical squad could do.

[Dawsey]

Hey guys

Now that the FM17 beta is out I was wondering if anyone has tried to implement this on the new match engine. Would be great to know if the standard & very fluid combination is still working as well? Had great fun using this tactic in FM16 & am trying to implement it using Blackburn in the championship for FM17.

[shaunwwfc]

To echo the above post, Ozil - is this still a framework that you would still recommend in 17?

 

Also, any tips for a lower league save using this type of football?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Certainly no reason why not. I don't play too much lower league but when I do I find work rate and stamina to be attributes I can come across so I'd prioritise becoming the fittest team in the league and then gradually work on ball control attributes as the team progresses.

[Anaconda Vice]

On 6/1/2016 at 22:07, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

If anyone is looking for a quick, fun game using these principles, the current England squad is actually a great fit thanks to the styles of Klopp and Pochettino. It works like a charm.

 

[video=youtube;RJqimlFcJsM]

Please click 'play' as you read

 

EURO 2016 CHAMPIONSHIP

 

 

 

The Squad

 

 

 

Tactics

I used a couple of different formations, all with the same playing style. The difference was primarily width, bodies in midfield or defensive cover.

 

 

 

Rooney really struggled to get in, but if he was going to play..

 

Mistake in the screenshot - Rooney was an AM(A)

 

 

Highlight of the Championship

 

 

 

My favourite thing about this has been playing with an out-and-out strike partnership for the first time in YEARS and it was fantastic. I forgot how much fun it was!

The Kane / Vardy partnership is perfect. You've got pace, power, arial threat and huge work rate. Kane is a 9.5 - half way between a classic striker and a 10. Vardy is an out and out scorer. They can score any type of goal and the rest of the team is set up to provide a diverse range of assists.

 

Jamie Vardy is having a party!

 

 

 

Was just having a browse through the Sacchi thread and I saw those variations you used with England. I was thinking of using them with Atletico and was wondering did you use any PI's in them. I already know the TI's so that is fine.

Also do you think this could be used in a 5ATB system with the 2 WB's providing width? - Considering that for times I have to face Barcelona or Real Madrid.

Thanks!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I honestly can't remember, I'm afraid - typically I'd organise the goalkeepers distribution and the set pieces straight away and the rest based on match observations.

I do recall having Vardy and Kane switching positions between Complete Forward (Support) and Complete Forward (Attack) and it worked very well.

Hmmm, let me get back to you on the back 5. I've just used a 5-4-1 (or 5-3-1-1) variant to beat a very aggressive Atletico team who needed 3-points to qualify for the Champions League knock-outs, so fielded a 4-2-4.

I've got Leverkusen in the first knock-out round and they're using an aggressive 4-4-2 so it may get another run out.

[Anaconda Vice]

1 minute ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I honestly can't remember, I'm afraid - typically I'd organise the goalkeepers distribution and the set pieces straight away and the rest based on match observations.

I do recall having Vardy and Kane switching positions between Complete Forward (Support) and Complete Forward (Attack) and it worked very well.

Hmmm, let me get back to you on the back 5. I've just used a 5-4-1 (or 5-3-1-1) variant to beat a very aggressive Atletico team who needed 3-points to qualify for the Champions League knock-outs, so fielded a 4-2-4.

I've got Leverkusen in the first knock-out round and they're using an aggressive 4-4-2 so it may get another run out.

Look forward to it. I am going to have a tinker with it myself. 

I think I remember you saying this can be pretty much applied to any formation.

I am thinking of using the one in the OP, a 5-ATB and also a 4-4-2 Asymmetric AML perhaps incorporating a Raumdeuter.

[Anaconda Vice]

Here is the 4-4-2 Asymmetric (Changed to AMR)

Was pleased with how it performed in the first game. A 4-1 Win over Sevilla. However against Atletico it was a 2-1 defeat. We created lots of chances but couldn't finish in that match. Ter Stegen made a terrible mistake too for one goal.

[Time_Consumer]

This works a charm on FM 17, btw. Using the Sacchi tactic with Benfica atm, they have a great squad for this (just retrain Pizzi & Guedes as WMs on the left side and you're pretty much set).

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2 hours ago, Time_Consumer said:

This works a charm on FM 17, btw. Using the Sacchi tactic with Benfica atm, they have a great squad for this (just retrain Pizzi & Guedes as WMs on the left side and you're pretty much set).

 

Yea, I haven't used it yet myself but I thought it might work well. Thanks for the insight.

[torehj]

Do you ever lower the defensive line? I play on FM17 with the tactic from the start of this thread.

I just played against Juventus with my Milan team in a pre-season match and...:

                  Milan    Juventus

Shots:           11  -   10

On target:    5   -    6

Possession: 56%-44%

Big chances 1   -    3

Result:          0   -   6

 

Five of the goals came from through balls to Higuain from the center.

Edit: Just played Sevilla and the same thing happened. Vietto runs through the defence like a knife through butter. We win the possession and shots on target, but the match result was 1-9 with Vietto scoring 8 goals.

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by torehj

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

6 hours ago, torehj said:

Do you ever lower the defensive line?

I just played against Juventus with my Milan team in a pre-season match and...:

                  Milan    Juventus

Shots:           11  -   10

On target:    5   -    6

Possession: 56%-44%

Big chances 1   -    3

Result:          0   -   6

 

Five of the goals came from through balls to Higuain from the center.

Yea, if I was conceding multiple goals from the same problem I would certainly sort it out. Ideally, before it gets as bad as conceding 5-goals!! 

I am finding with my Ajax save that whilst players are developing I need to modify the defensive line against top clubs.

[Bigpapa42]

I find dropping the mentality to Counter seems to drop the defensive line a bit too, and I will often do that against teams that very clearly outclass me. But yeah if you are getting killed by balls of the top and your defenders don't have the pace or anticipation to kill those threats, adjust the line even if just to limit the damage.

[torehj]

What about pitch size? I chose a small pitch to avoid to much room behind the defence. Should I have chosen a bigger size, perhaps a wide or  narrow pitch?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, torehj said:

What about pitch size? I chose a small pitch to avoid to much room behind the defence. Should I have chosen a bigger size, perhaps a wide or  narrow pitch?

 

I always go smallest, but can't say I've ever noticed a difference.

[torehj]

2 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

I always go smallest, but can't say I've ever noticed a difference.

I noticed that we always played better away from home than at home. Every other team has a long pitch. Now I play me defensive line "slightly higher" at home and "higher" away from home. Seem to work well.

[torehj]

After playing almost a season with this style and tactic with AC Milan, I am pretty happy with it. 2 points behind Juve, and 12 points above third place. But I have noticed a problem:

- We often have many shots (25-30), but many of them are longshots (15-20) if I tell my players to put the ball into the net, almost nothing happens in attack. The shots fall to 5-10 pr. match and few goals.

Any tips?

[Time_Consumer]

13 hours ago, torehj said:

After playing almost a season with this style and tactic with AC Milan, I am pretty happy with it. 2 points behind Juve, and 12 points above third place. But I have noticed a problem:

- We often have many shots (25-30), but many of them are longshots (15-20) if I tell my players to put the ball into the net, almost nothing happens in attack. The shots fall to 5-10 pr. match and few goals.

Any tips?

I feel that sometimes switching to counter improves my attacking play. You'll draw out opposition a tad and get a little more space for your players to run into, your midfielders will then more often chose to play through balls to your AM or striker instead of taking shots. I usually switch to counter right when i scored one goal and often score some more afterwards.

In general though, this is not a very high scoring tactic i feel. Winning 1-0, 2-0 a lot, realy high scorelines are a rare thing.

[torehj]

1 hour ago, Time_Consumer said:

I feel that sometimes switching to counter improves my attacking play. You'll draw out opposition a tad and get a little more space for your players to run into, your midfielders will then more often chose to play through balls to your AM or striker instead of taking shots. I usually switch to counter right when i scored one goal and often score some more afterwards.

In general though, this is not a very high scoring tactic i feel. Winning 1-0, 2-0 a lot, realy high scorelines are a rare thing.

Thanks. I will try counter. Switching to control or attacking never works for me. Resulting in only more long shots.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2 hours ago, Time_Consumer said:

I feel that sometimes switching to counter improves my attacking play. You'll draw out opposition a tad and get a little more space for your players to run into, your midfielders will then more often chose to play through balls to your AM or striker instead of taking shots. I usually switch to counter right when i scored one goal and often score some more afterwards.

In general though, this is not a very high scoring tactic i feel. Winning 1-0, 2-0 a lot, realy high scorelines are a rare thing.

Be very careful with mentality in a Very Fluid system. Remember your team attacks and defends as one unit so you switching to Counter your attackers are more defensively minded. Switching to counter also means that your defensive line, closing down, tempo and mentality all become lower so your pressing will be weaker.

To me - Very Fluid + Counter = van Gaal's Man Utd. As with everything, I am sure it can work but in this instance I don't like it.

You're right about the goals. It's not a 4-0 or 5-0 a game. It's a solid 2-0 or 3-0 but dominating possession, territory and barely conceding a shot. With Milan we put together some very impressive unbeaten records.

The Invincibles system on the other hand broke all goalscoring records but was also more prone to conceding and never felt quite as in-control.

[torehj]

I dont understand why this tactic encourages so many long shots. Even with "work box in to box" and PI "fewer shots" I'm getting way to many long shots. Just played at home against Chievo; 42 shots, 32 long shots.

Is it because Very Fluid gives players more creativity? Even my MC who has a PI saying he likes to pass rather than shoot had 13(!) long shots in this match. Non hitting target.

I have to mention that the tactic worked great for the first half of the season (14-5-0, 53-21) and not at all the rest of the season (7-7-5, 39-18). This might not be the tactics fault..

Edited November 18, 2016 by torehj

[CybrSlydr]

I was really excited when I saw this thread because I wanted a good 4-4-1-1 for my Manchester United save. 

Defensively, this tactic was pretty good!  But no matter what I did, I could not get the attack to work at all.

I picked up Mauro Icardi in the initial window ($82m USD) after selling Mata, Blind and Fellaini.  I was SO stoked. 

At first, I was using a 4-1-4-1 (I hadn't seen this thread yet) because I wanted a formation/team that was good defensively and I felt I had the personnel to better match up with that sort of formation.  It was working decently, but I wanted more in the attack.  So my solution was to switch to a 4-4-1-1.  I'd keep the two banks of four and a CM in a defensive role while gaining that link-up play by utilizing someone in the AM strata.

Initially, I had my back four of Darmian, Smalling, Sule and Shaw.  My middle four was Bentancur, Schniderlin, Pogba and Martial.  I went out and bought Bernardo Silva and plopped him behind Icardi.

I thought I was pretty much set formation/personnel wise.  Pogba would bring the ball out of the back and be a threat outside the box with his long shots, Schniderlin would screen the back four, Silva would spray passes and through balls while Icardi would bang 'em in.

This never materialized because I could never get the players to play this way. 

For instance, Bentancur was playing as a W(A) with Cross More and all that because I wanted him on the wing spraying in crosses and Martial as a WM(A) cutting in and occupying defenders.  Silva and Icardi would then be in the box.  If they didn't go down the wing, then Pogba would get the ball to Silva and he'd do his thing.

Nope.

All I would get are dozens and dozens of shots from the top of or just outside the box.  My players were extremely selfish and rather poor at passing the ball.

It was not uncommon for me to finish a game with 25+ shots and 5 or fewer on target.  It was enough to drive a man mad.  I even played with the instructions, like telling Pogba to shoot less, along with Silva. I didn't want to tell that to Martial since he was supposed to be in and around the box cutting in but he would take ridiculously long ranged shots.  Bentancur would always cut in instead of staying out to deliver crosses even when told to "cross more" and "stay wider".  I even had Shaw and Darmian pushing up to provide width, but they rarely received the ball from anyone.

Eventually what I'd end up with is Pogba about midway between the box and the circle and Silva around the penalty circle while Bentancur, Martial and Icardi were marked out of existence at the top of the box by the 10 defenders.  Silva would either have a pass intercepted, stolen or he'd pass back to Pogba who would then try his leg from about 35yards.

The team was also extremely slow in transition, regularly being beaten into the attacking third by the opposing defense.  We would spring on a Counter only to have Icardi isolated up top and the ball stolen by the back two defenders or they would just hoof the ball up.

I tried numerous TIs to try and counter this - Dribble More, Play More Narrow, Work Ball Into Box, etc - but nothing I did could get it to work.

The only thing I can really figure is that the 4-4-1-1 and the way I was trying to get them to play doesn't work with the players I had.  Their PPMs like, "Likes to Cut In From Both Wings" and "Tries Long Shots" and the like were overriding everything I was trying to do.

Has anyone else had any problems like this?

[northstander79]

I remember playing with the Arrigo tactic in FM13 with great success.  Is there a download link for this tactic for FM17 please? 

[kingjericho]

On 26/12/2016 at 22:53, northstander79 said:

I remember playing with the Arrigo tactic in FM13 with great success.  Is there a download link for this tactic for FM17 please? 

Just use the setup described in the opening post. Tactic principles carry on through FM versions.

[alinp]

So... was thinking of using this as a basis for a tactic based loosely around Paisley's late 70's/early 80's LFC.  My initial thoughts for roles/duties would be...

1. Clemence - SK(S) - the original sweeper keeper
2. Neal - FB(A)
3. Kennedy A - WB(S)
4. Thompson - CD(D)
5. Kennedy R - WM(A)
6. Hansen - CD(D)
7. Dalglish - either CF(S) at Striker or T(A)/SS(A) at AM
8. Case - WM(S)
9. Rush - AF(A)
10. McDermott - CM(A)
11. Souness - DLP(S)

I know it seems to lack Defensive roles, but given it will be playing a very high line, I'd expect the defence to be close to the CM's most of the time, especially with whoever plays the Souness role holding the middle of the pitch.

Anyone who's old (like me) and has memory of this time, please feel free to help.  And any not old, can help too - I like to be inclusive

Will keep you posted.

Edited January 23, 2017 by alinp