Playing with two DM

[MadCatPT]

Hi,

This thread is to document my struggles and get some help.

Just started a game on the Portuguese lowest division, it's a youth only save, so I have to scrap by with what I have.

I have loads of D C, DM and S C, and was trying to come with something. I'm predicted to go 10th so my idea is to create a base more defensive tactic since I'll be the underdog for most of the first seasons, a more offensive tactic to go after a result or for the few games I'm the favorite.

For the third tactic I'm looking to probably a ultra defensive tactic, since every lead will be precious.

My team has good decisions for the division but bad passing, first touch and teamwork.

I have never played with two DM, so afraid of creating too much of a gap.

GK: 2 decent regular keeper
DR: 1 decent, 2 poor fullbacks
DL: 1 decent, no cover fullback (will retrain one of the poor fullback to cover, hope for a youngster)
DC: 1 top class player(38, 8 acc/pac), 2 decent player, 4 poor cover players (2 with potential to became decent)
DM: 3 good players (1 can play decent at DC, other decent at MC), 2 poor cover players
AML: 1 good player, 1 decent, 1 poor
AMR: Only right sided player is my best striker, 2 best AML can play AMR
MC: 2 decent player, 3 poor players (1 is almost decent)
AMC: 1 decent player, 1 poor
SC: 1 very good, 1 good (potential to become very good)(both are poachers/AF types), 1 decent DLF, 2 poor (AF) 

Tactic 1:

4-2DM-3M-1

Will get to use my best players, will need to see how best to fill the wings, pure winger or Wide midfielder.

Tactic 2:

4-2DM-3AM-1 or 4-2DM-2W-2

Will get to use my best player,  at their natural positions. or May be too big a gap in the middle.

Tactic 3:

5-2DM-3-0

Using my best striker ability to play on the right, ability of DM playing central defense, MC, changing the players to try and hold on to dear life.

Mentality:

Will probably be defensive with the narrowest and longest field available so I can try and get my best striker a chance to beat his man in a foot race.

TI:

My best player is 38 so his speed will probably start to get worse so a very deep defensive line, disciplined, to get the opposition in my half before trying to get one over the top.

[MadCatPT]

Made 4 games trying a more conventional 4-4-1-1, all against the poorest teams I could find.

So I won 3 games and drew 1, my team struggled to make plays, they are a bit limited, I also allowed too many chances for the opposition, only keeping one clean sheet. That won't do with better quality opponents.

 

[MadCatPT]

Made 1 game with the 4-2DM-3M-1, limited the opposition to one half chance, and made several myself with 4 balls over the top, and two through balls from my MC.

I don't get as many chances as before, but the ones I create now are more dangerous, especially my DL delivering the ball over the top to free runs for my forward.

Had to make the GK distribute short, his kicks were too short for any kind of danger and it would just give the ball away.

[herne79]

You need to tell us your detailed tactical set up if you want us to be able to help.

[summatsupeer]

You don't have to player them in there natural position, for example most DM's are fine at MC.

[MadCatPT]

@herne79 So far I'm just documenting my exploring, I'll probably will soon start asking for help on certain aspects when I play games against stronger teams and will post the relevant info and pics. Don't want to bother people now while I'm experimenting.

@summatsupeer I tried in the first 4 games to play them in the MC, but didn't like the results. This is the worse team I ever got in terms of passing, a new challenge.
Besides I allowed too many chances.

[Overmars]

My latest save has been based primarily around the 4-2-3-1. The three options I give myself are:

1. 4-2-3-1 = The two CM players are given a CM(d) duty. This has been my best offensive formation, and the CM(d) players have been very efficient together. My four offensive players are good enough to provide the goals on their own, and switching the CM players to more aggressive roles doesn't help me score more frequently.
2. 4-2(DM)-3-1 = I give the DM players a bit of licence to go forward with a DM(s) role and a RPM(s) or REG(s) role. I haven't noticed any gap problems in my midfield, and this tactic is incredibly solid defensively. I do have better players to play the RPM/REG role, though.
3. 4-4-1-1 = This is my counter tactic, with a pass into space shout and direct/high tempo passing. I have seen a lot of fast break goals from my wingers, but even more so from my central midfielders. I use a BBM(s) and a CM(d), and even the CM(d) broke forward for two goals in one match.

In all of these tactics, my most important player is my lone striker. He scores twice as often as anyone else, and he often makes key passes to the two wide midfielders and AMC. My forward has the attributes to be a playmaker, but even a poacher can flourish if you put an AP(s) and another creative type behind him.

[MadCatPT]

So my first game was a 1-5 defeat.

@Overmars My lone striker had one chance and took it, only bright spot.

They where able to pass/cross to a running midfielder who scored 3 goals.

@herne79 Now is where I ask for help.

First was a shot from the edge of the box after a pass from the right:

Everyone acted as if he had the plague! Line too deep?

 

Second a free header:

Plague bearer and friends. Line too deep? Why are my midfielder trio no marking them?

 

This is where he was marked, and closed down:

Should I have shown him to weaker foot? He scored a great goal from there?

 

Free kick and my defender didn't do anything:

Stuck to the ground?

This is my goal, a through ball by my AM, after I changed from the first tactic to the other.

 

Penalty after a foul:

 

Here is the team overview and tactics:

 

Up until 0-4:

 

After:

[summatsupeer]

19 hours ago, MadCatPT said:

@summatsupeer I tried in the first 4 games to play them in the MC, but didn't like the results. This is the worse team I ever got in terms of passing, a new challenge.
Besides I allowed too many chances.

Just because you put them in MC doesn't mean that was the problem, it was probably your tactic.

56 minutes ago, MadCatPT said:

How do you see this working?  I see lots of conflicting and limiting factors, the main ones are:

1. 6 Defend duties, leaving 4 players to create and score
2. Both DM's doing the same thing and not offering anything different.
3. Two wingers but the only target is a Poacher and maybe the CM-S
4. Route One to a lone Poacher.

I have no idea what your plan is with this tactic so can't really suggest specific fixes.  If you want your team to be more cautious then use a more cautious team mentality rather than 6 defend duties, you don't need that much cover when attacking.  If you want to use wingers make sure you have a presence in the box.   If you want play long passes you need more than a lone Poacher to aim for.

[MadCatPT]

@summatsupeer It's my first try at a super defensive tactic. It had some nice results in friendlies, even just losing 0-1 to Alaves and Las Palmas.

But nothing survives contact with the enemy.

My idea was to get deep and then try to put some over the top passes for my poacher, it worked against weak teams, it seems not so much at the superior opponents I will face.

My main problem now is suffering too many goals, I don't have the team to keep up in a goal race.

My secondary problem of creating some chances, I can move up my CM-S to an AM-S/AP-S with the players I have. Just not playing that way because my only decent player for this position is recovering from injury, still limited to 45m.

Should the DMs be changed to a DM-D/DM-S or even both DM-S? Maybe one Anchor and one DM-S?

Changing the W-S to WM-S would be better?

Change the route one to a mix passing?

So the team would move up the field with one DM staying down and the other offering a rear escape for passes while the WM and AM try to get a through ball for the poacher?

[MadCatPT]

Made a quick game after disciplining my under performing players.

Again huge underdogs, I played with some changes to my attacking tactic.

Counter, flexible, no TI.

P-A, on the AM strata two W-S and a AM-S, on the defensive strata Anchor Man and BWM-S, two FB-S and two DC-D.

Lot's of chances for them, the defense was livelier, people going to block shots, people running to head off crosses, but still the result was 0-0 more due to missed chances by the adversary.

Attacking terms, I had a couple of half chances.

At least seconds of the match, penalty against me and loss.

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, MadCatPT said:

@summatsupeer It's my first try at a super defensive tactic. It had some nice results in friendlies, even just losing 0-1 to Alaves and Las Palmas.

But nothing survives contact with the enemy.

My idea was to get deep and then try to put some over the top passes for my poacher, it worked against weak teams, it seems not so much at the superior opponents I will face.

My main problem now is suffering too many goals, I don't have the team to keep up in a goal race.

My secondary problem of creating some chances, I can move up my CM-S to an AM-S/AP-S with the players I have. Just not playing that way because my only decent player for this position is recovering from injury, still limited to 45m.

Should the DMs be changed to a DM-D/DM-S or even both DM-S? Maybe one Anchor and one DM-S?

Changing the W-S to WM-S would be better?

Change the route one to a mix passing?

So the team would move up the field with one DM staying down and the other offering a rear escape for passes while the WM and AM try to get a through ball for the poacher?

Why use Standard team mentality if you want to be defensive?  

You need your roles and duties to combine well in all phases of play, just making more players stay behind the ball and not attempt anything won't make you defend better, just makes it less likely your counter attacked or that you'll create anything.

Why do anything you've suggested?  It looks like your just randomly changing things.

From what you've said it sounds like you want to counter attack, I would suggest reading Cleons Defensive Arts and Art of the Counter Attacking guides.

Suggestions:

• Start with Defensive / Counter Team Mentality - This will make your players take less risks, sit closer to the box, press in your own half of the pitch etc.
• If you aren't sure about Team Shape then just go with Flexible.  Structured will make your deeper players even more defensive and risk adverse and your advanced players plus attack duty players more attacking.  If you have your lone forward on attack he will probably be isolated, a role that holds up the ball, especially support duty will allow more time for the midfield to catch up.
• Select a formation that is defensively solid but puts players in positions to counter attack.  4141 is probably the most common two lines of 4 thats hard to play through and a DMC sitting between them.  The midfield 4 are all potential counter attackers rather than the 3 you have currently.
• Selects roles and duties for how players should play when you aren't counter attacking.  For example on defensive/counter mentality a FB-S will play very safe and only support when its a low risk so you don't really need two FB-D.  If you don't get good counter attack opportunities then you need a plan B which is what you make here.
• Drop the instructions and just watch how the default settings play out.  Playing Defensive/Control will increase the distance of passes the defence tries (check the player instruction screen) and shortens the advanced players passing so you don't need to tell them to play Route One or more direct.

[sgw]

My standard defensive formation across the last few iterations of the game might work for you, it seems to fit your players. GK and back 4, fullbacks on support or defend, central defenders on defend. Two DMs, one as an anchor or DM (defend), one as a supporting DLP. RM and LM set as wide midfielders on attack, AMC set to support or attack, as an attacking midfielder or advanced playmaker, and a target man or advanced forward, on either support or attack. I play a bit narrow with a defensive mentality, slower tempo, and shorter passing, I find it makes for a really compact team that can retain the ball well even when they're not better passers than the opposition. Goals come from the wide men and the striker. 

[MadCatPT]

@summatsupeer Already tried some of those things as you can see on the other post.

Played with counter/flexible as you said.

Also played with two FB-S.

Also no TI.

Formation, well I was trying to make this 2DM formation to work, this save will probably have to be redone, found a bug with the staff(I think, already post it in the bug area) and so I'll probably do some games to try somethings out, even the 4-1-4-1, and then restart when they sort out the bug/cause of me not being able to hire coaches.

@sgw I'll give it a try also, thanks.

[sgw]

Forgot to mention... I also use structured (or rigid, or whatever it's called nowadays) so that the team stays compact. 

[herne79]

Just now, sgw said:

Forgot to mention... I also use structured (or rigid, or whatever it's called nowadays) so that the team stays compact. 

A structured team shape increases vertical space between players when in possession.  More fluid team shapes increase vertical compactness.

When defending, teams take up compact formations anyway, regardless of team shape.

[sgw]

Really? That's good to know, cheers. I've always assumed structured would make the players stick to their positions... and in the formation I described above their positions are compact and close to each other. I find it works well for less talented sides, and for more defensive formations.

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, MadCatPT said:

@summatsupeer Already tried some of those things as you can see on the other post.

Played with counter/flexible as you said.

Also played with two FB-S.

Also no TI.

Formation, well I was trying to make this 2DM formation to work, this save will probably have to be redone, found a bug with the staff(I think, already post it in the bug area) and so I'll probably do some games to try somethings out, even the 4-1-4-1, and then restart when they sort out the bug/cause of me not being able to hire coaches.

The deeper you place more players when defending, the longer it will take them to transition to attack, even if they are usain bolt.  If your determined to have players deep then you might have to adjust your style.

In the end it comes down to what your players are good at and not just how good they are, you can only do so much tactically.

2 hours ago, sgw said:

Really? That's good to know, cheers. I've always assumed structured would make the players stick to their positions... and in the formation I described above their positions are compact and close to each other. I find it works well for less talented sides, and for more defensive formations.

It makes them more disciplined, so will follow your instructions more often and use there initiative less.  

Your formation is your defensive positioning, the deeper you get the narrower / more compact they will get regardless of team shape.

If you think of a CM-S in MC as being the pivot point:

• Very Fluid brings the advanced players nearer to him and the defence also pushes up towards him, creating more support through closer options. There is less difference between Defend, Support and Attack duties regardless of position in the defensive formation.
• Very Structured makes the deeper players stay deeper and play safer whilst the forwards stay forward more and take more risks. There is a much bigger difference between Defend, Support and Attack duty.

[MadCatPT]

@summatsupeer That is very interesting. Does that mean in very fluid, my team is very close to each other and they do what they think is best according to the team mentality?

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, MadCatPT said:

@summatsupeer That is very interesting. Does that mean in very fluid, my team is very close to each other and they do what they think is best according to the team mentality?

Yeah pretty much, they will follow the instructions given sometimes but they have a lot of freedom to deviate from them.  Defend duty has slightly less freedom than support duty, support duty has slightly less freedom than attack duty.  This is why Very Fluid requires a very good all round team as your relying on them all to make good decisions on what to do rather than just doing what they've been told.  This is also where PPM's become even more important as your telling them to do what they think is best and those are what they prefer to do.  It can be very hard to get right and get the right players.

If you've read any of Ozil to the Arsenals topics where he uses Very Fluid you'll notice how much he mentions needing good ball playing defenders as they will play as risky as any other defend duty in the team and thats only slightly lower than the support players.  Even just using CB-D rather than BPD-D will require players who are (or almost) described as a BPD.   Same thing with a forward,  I would question why someone would use a very limited role such as a Poacher in a Very Fluid setup since he will be expected to be able to contribute so much more.

I'll leave it there, going off on a bit of a tangent.

[sgw]

All very interesting, cheers.

[MadCatPT]

Unfortunatly I'm unable to hire coaches, made a new save with the same team and it happened again.

Uploaded also the new save to the bug forum.

Will try something different with a different team, if the bug persists it's a bit of a game breaker for me.