LFC 16/17 - a version....

[alinp]

I've seen a couple of people start threads looking at some kind of recreation of Jurgen Klopp's Liverpool, but they all seem to die a death due to lack of updates and/or development, so I thought I'd share my thoughts on a version I've put together that I successfully used to win the Premier League on my iPad version of FMT and see if it works on the full fat version.

The plan is to show the base tactic and then follow it's progress through the season, how I adapt it for different opponents and (hopefully) repeat my success.  I'm more than happy to take any feedback or suggestions for improvements that can make it more successful.

So, let's get going.

The base formation is a modern 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-3 DM if you like), roles and duties as per the images below - the eagle eyed amongst you will have noticed a couple of new faces.

In addition, the following PI's have been added

• AML - AP(A) - Coutinho - Roam from Position
• AMR - W(A) - Mane - Roam from Position
• MCR - CM(A) - Lallana - Roam from Position, Move into Channels, Dribble More (some may recognise this as an approximation to the "Central Winger")
• MCL - CM(S) - Can - Hold Position
• FBL - WB(S) - Moreno - Stay Wider
• FBR - FB(A) - Clyne - Stay Wider
• GK - SK(S) - Ryan - Distribute Quickly, Distribute to Playmaker

I had played about with 4-1-4-1 versions, which possibly more accurately reflect how they defend, but I felt I wasn't getting the desired attacking movement.

What I aimed to recreate was a system that pressed high up the pitch, attacked with fluid movement of the front 4 (the front 3 + the CM(A)) and that maintained high possession rates.  With a high line, we expect to be vulnerable to balls over the top, but I expect to mitigate this with quick defenders to chase back plus pressing of opposition playmakers reduce their effectiveness.

Pre-season

So we managed to win all 8 friendlies and I didn't play around with the tactic at all so that I could maximise familiarity as quickly as possible.  Going into the first league game, the tactic is about 60% familiar.

The scores are what they are, but I was most interested in the possession figures to see if that was working.  Pleasingly enough, possession ranges between 57% & 68% (including the Milan and Roma matches).

Transfers

No one's left, but in addition to the 2 players in the graphic above, I've also signed Riedewald from Ajax and Schopf from Schalke (or Gelsenkirchen as the game calls it).  I also made a database change pre-game to make Michael Edwards DoF.

I'm sure I forgotten something, but it's late and I'm getting told to close down.  Due to other commitments, it's unlikely I'll get to update until the weekend, but I hope people like the opening.

[TheJanitor]

Great results had fun with a 4141 but whatever works for you. How does Mane doing in the Winger role? Had though time replicating his RL role.

[Jakob8b]

Interesting, looking forward to more updates.

How is pass into space working for you? I'm trying to create a possesion based tactic aswell, but I've been avoiding that instruction because I also have the shorter passing + work the ball into box like you, and in my mind they are kind of contradictory. Maybe I should try it though, I do sometimes feel like I need a little more penetration when I'm passing around the box (in those situations I would typically just untick work into box).

[MrMourinho]

Interesting to follow how you perform during the competitive season. My set-up looks alot like yours, but I often find that despite my aggressive pressing and pretty pacy defenders, the opposition often manage to play balls over the top. If the opposition have a player with passing ability he often finds a quick striker and through on goal he has a great chance to score. 

Do you play the same way when you face a top team away? If I play the same attacking tactic away from home against a very good team I often get beaten, so I need to change to a more conservative tactic. 

Let me know how you handle this and how often it occurs.

[shaunwwfc]

I think this system requires you defenders to be supermen, basically. I tried it many times with relatively speaking, good defenders. Standard good attributes. I just constantly kept getting caught with balls over the top or one good pass by the opposition, and they are in. Shame as IRL I think Liverpool are the best watch at the moment.

[alinp]

19 hours ago, Jakob8b said:

Interesting, looking forward to more updates.

How is pass into space working for you? I'm trying to create a possesion based tactic aswell, but I've been avoiding that instruction because I also have the shorter passing + work the ball into box like you, and in my mind they are kind of contradictory. Maybe I should try it though, I do sometimes feel like I need a little more penetration when I'm passing around the box (in those situations I would typically just untick work into box).

As I was developing the style I wanted, I looked at some of the other tactical ideas on here, particularly those posted by @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!.  I found the movement at the top of his Jogo Bonito tactic very interesting and concluded that if I wanted similar, the Pass into Space TI was a must.  I don't think it contradicts WBiB as AFAIK that instruction generally reduces long shots and crosses rather than through balls.  However, to be fair, in season 2 on my FMT version I have gone for removing WBiB as the default and only adding it back if I see us popping off long shots from all angles.

17 hours ago, MrMourinho said:

Interesting to follow how you perform during the competitive season. My set-up looks alot like yours, but I often find that despite my aggressive pressing and pretty pacy defenders, the opposition often manage to play balls over the top. If the opposition have a player with passing ability he often finds a quick striker and through on goal he has a great chance to score. 

Do you play the same way when you face a top team away? If I play the same attacking tactic away from home against a very good team I often get beaten, so I need to change to a more conservative tactic. 

Let me know how you handle this and how often it occurs.

I think there's always a trade off somewhere and as managers we need to be aware of the failing of our own tactics, where they are vulnerable, and how we can mitigate this.  For me, the best mitigation I can apply is to look for quick defenders (I tend to look for high Acceleration, Pace and Stamina stats for all players anyway) and maintain the press to try and stop the through balls in the first place.  I accept this won't be 100% effective and will concede goals.  What I do for matches such as Man City away wait to be seen, but I need to be aware that alterations at one end will affect effectiveness at the other.

15 hours ago, Shauny1990 said:

I think this system requires you defenders to be supermen, basically. I tried it many times with relatively speaking, good defenders. Standard good attributes. I just constantly kept getting caught with balls over the top or one good pass by the opposition, and they are in. Shame as IRL I think Liverpool are the best watch at the moment.

As I said above, I think there's always elements of failings that you need to be aware of and live with in any tactical approach - nothing is perfect.

[alinp]

22 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Great results had fun with a 4141 but whatever works for you. How does Mane doing in the Winger role? Had though time replicating his RL role.

So far so good.  With Roaming, the W(A) role moves infield quite naturally and I've often found him switching with Firmino or coming inside as Lallana goes wide.

[Jakob8b]

6 minutes ago, alinp said:

As I was developing the style I wanted, I looked at some of the other tactical ideas on here, particularly those posted by @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!.  I found the movement at the top of his Jogo Bonito tactic very interesting and concluded that if I wanted similar, the Pass into Space TI was a must.  I don't think it contradicts WBiB as AFAIK that instruction generally reduces long shots and crosses rather than through balls.  However, to be fair, in season 2 on my FMT version I have gone for removing WBiB as the default and only adding it back if I see us popping off long shots from all angles.

 

Yeah, I tried adding the Pass Into Space instruction for my tactic last night and I actually liked how it looked. I ended up removing the Work Ball Into Box though, mostly because I got annoyed when my fullback was played through for a completely open cross, only for him to stop the ball and pass it backwards.

About the balls over the top - whenever I play a high pressing system, I always instruct my CBs to press a little less and I've been quite happy with that - especially with a player in the DM strata.

[alinp]

Game 1 - Leicester Away.

With Coutinho injured, Firmino moves to the left with Sturridge up top - the rest exactly as the OP.

Leicester line up with their familiar 442, which gives me the first decisions to make about any adjustments to my default tactic.  I'm in two minds whether to try and get the ball into the space behind their midfield quicker by removing Play out of Defence, so for now I'll leave it.  My one change from default will be to add Exploit the middle working on the fact that I have 3 CM's and they have 2.

14 minutes in and we get our first - from a corner which they initially headed clear, only for it to be picked up by Firmino slid in a nice ball for Moreno to side foot home from about 8 yards.  I t also gives me an opportunity to look at how we're doing statistically.  Possession at 64%, Shots 10-0, On Target 4-0.... overall looking good, however I'd like to get Shots on Target (SoT) at 50% or higher.  I'll leave things as they are for now, but if it doesn't improve my initial thought is to give our attackers a little more time by reducing the tempo slightly.

HT - still 1-0 up.  Stats: Poss 63%, Shots 15-1, SoT 6-0.  I've decided that I'll drop the mentality to Standard which should have the desired result of dropping the tempo slightly.  It also reduces our level of risk, which is sensible given we have a narrow lead.

50 mins - Vardy equalises

60 mins - no improvement in SoT, in fact none yet this half.  Decided to go back to being a little more aggressive with Control, but also removed Play out of Defence in order to get the ball forward quicker.

65 mins - 2-1 Firmino.  Mane collects the ball from a throw level with their 6 yard box, creates himself half a yard and slips it to Firmino to tuck home from near the penalty spot.

Leicester immediately switch to an Attacking 4-2-4.  In response, I switch to Counter and remove WBiB as I don't want any counter opportunities slowed up in-necessarily.  Unfortunately, the game was too quick for me and Vardy equalises again before my changes had time to be implemented.  They immediately switch back to their standard 4-4-2, so I reverse my changes.

70 - Sturridge hasn't really got into the game and is rating at 6.4 - so I sub him for Origi.

77 - Lallana a bit puffed, so Wijnaldum replaces him.

82 - going for the win, I change to Attacking and remove WBiB.

Finished 2-2.  Stats: Poss 61%, Shots 26-10, SoT 12-7.

Overall, I'm a little disappointed we didn't win the game.  Statically we dominated, but looking back, the period during which I dropped off a little, they seemed to come back into the match.

[Ji-Sung Park]

9 minutes ago, alinp said:

Finished 2-2.  Stats: Poss 61%, Shots 26-10, SoT 12-7.

 

Sample size. If you continue like this you'll win more often than not. You are having half of your shots on target - assuming those shots are decent chances you'll get there.

[alinp]

Game 2 - Man City Home.

Matip injured in training and Coutinho still out.  Lovren comes in for Matip - no other changes.

City line up 4-1-2-3 (same as us).  I make no changes to my default set up.

4 mins - 1-0 Can.  Near post corner, flicked at goal by Sturridge, saved, Can knocks in the loose ball from a 2 yards out.

20 mins - 2-0 Mane.  Some nice passing in front of their defence looking for the opening ends with the ball being switched through a series of quick short passes from left to right, finding the overlapping Clyne, who slips it inside for Mane to finish.  Current stats: Poss 57%, Shots 8-1, SoT 5-0.

26 mins - 3-0 Can (Pen).  Clyne again in acres of space crosses... Zabeleta pushes Firmino as he attempts to get on the end of it. Ref in no doubt - slotted home coolly by Can.

37 mins - 4-0 Lovren.  I really liked this goal and although it was from a corner, I think it's exactly the type of goal this tactic should score.  A Man City attack was broken up by the excellent Henderson, and despite our counter not flowing wonderfully, every time City thought they had broken it up, our front 6 pressed so hard, the City defence ended up panicking and clearing the ball for a corner.  Lovren tapped in from a couple of yards after City failed to clear properly.

HT 4-0.  Stats: Poss 57%, Shots 14-2, SoT 8-0.  No changes (why would you??)

48 - 4-1.  Aguero gets one back on the counter after being slipped in by De Bruyne.   City go "Attacking", but no overall formation change.  I'm going to leave things as they are for now.

60 - 5-1 Mane.  The Clyne/Mane partnerships strikes again.  City aren't "Attacking" anymore.

62 - both my CB's are on yellows, so sub them for Reidewald & Klavan.

68 - 5-2 Aguero.  Poor clearance by Klavan straight to KDB who finds Aguero in front of goal.

75 - City go Attacking again - this time I switch to Counter + remove Play out of Defence

83 - Lallana off, Wijnaldum on

85 - 6-2 Bravo o.g.  Great pressing by Can, finds Firmino in space who drives into box and has his driven cross deflected into the City goal by their own keeper.  City remove their "Attacking", but I make no changes.

FT 6-2.  Stats: Poss 57%, Shots 17-6, SoT 10-2.

As the pundits would say - a statement from the Redmen there!!

[alinp]

EFL Cup 2nd Round Home v Sheff Utd.

Fully rotated XI - Mignolet; Alexander, Ilori, Klavan, Milner; Wijnaldum, Reidewald, Chirivella; Woodburn, Ings, Schopf.

Sheff Utd line up 4-4-1-1 2DM.  With them playing 2 DM's, I'm going to try and encourage my lads to play wider and stretch the play, so I've maxed out width and (as in my mind it makes sense) changed passing to mixed.

HT 0-0. Poss 70%, Shots 10-1, SoT 4-0.  Clearly dominating... no changes yet - will see how 2nd half goes.

63 and still nothing. Removing WBiB as perhaps we're fannying about a bit too much.

70 - Gomez & Stewart on for Milner & Alexander.  Changed style to Very Fluid.

81 - going for the win - changed to Attacking

FT 0-0.  Poss 66%, Shots 15-4, SoT 5-0.

Extra Time - Changed back to Control/Fluid & added back WBiB as we are shooting from distance way too much for my liking.

94 1-0 Ilori - headed home unchallenged from a corner.

101 2-0 Wijnaldum - classic 3rd man running goal - slipped in by Ings dropping into the hole.

105 - Ojo on for Woodburn.

Final Score - 2-0. Poss 64%, Shots 21-8, SoT 9-1.

Well done the back ups...

[alinp]

Didn't get to play any more matches over the weekend due to.... well, life!!

So far the 3 matches played have presented different challenges and generally I'm happy with the outcomes (although an opening day win would have been nice) given the initial plan was to create something akin to LFC's current style which produces high possession and high shot numbers (I'm not keen to reproduce poor defending tho').

To date I've provided some written commentary on the matches and details of changes I've made as I made them - would people like anything else?  I'm not a great user of the STATS tools, but I'm happy to post any screenshots people would be interested in.

It would also be useful if people see anything that could have improved a result.

Cheers...

[alinp]

Game 3 - Home v Bournemouth (4-4-2)

Same set up as the Leicester game, but this time removed Play out of Defence from the outset.  2-0 up at half time through Mane & Sturridge.  Unfortunately, Firmino picked up an injury so moved Lallana to AML and brought on Wijnaldum.  3 up on 50 (Sturridge again) and Bournemouth switch to 4-1-4-1.  In response, I go back to my default set up.  No further scoring...

The numbers - Poss 60%, Shots 17-4, SoT 7-0.

[Ji-Sung Park]

19 hours ago, alinp said:

Didn't get to play any more matches over the weekend due to.... well, life!!

Don't you just hate it when that happens? 

Nice and to the point write up, I am following.

[alinp]

4 hours ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

Nice and to the point write up, I am following.

Thanks.... sometimes felt like I was talking to myself, although TBH I am finding the discipline to log how I'm playing useful.

[ryan045]

Could we see some screenshots on your next update, I'm following too . It breaks the post up a bit and gives that better visualization of things. Maybe a screenshot of the match stats/scoreline etc.

[Ji-Sung Park]

24 minutes ago, alinp said:

sometimes felt like I was talking to myself

Replication threads cater to a smaller crowd. I find it extremely interesting that the ME has evolved to the point where you need certain types of players to succeed in a certain type of playing style. Others take it for granted of course, I don't.

[Karnack]

Interesting!

I have a similar tactic (different formation) and I have same results like you so far. I crush the best teams and often find myself fighting for the odd goal win against poorer teams. It's hard breaking down the bus

[alinp]

17 minutes ago, ryan045 said:

Could we see some screenshots on your next update, I'm following too . It breaks the post up a bit and gives that better visualization of things. Maybe a screenshot of the match stats/scoreline etc.

I'll see what I can sort out for the next update

2 minutes ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

Replication threads cater to a smaller crowd. I find it extremely interesting that the ME has evolved to the point where you need certain types of players to succeed in a certain type of playing style. Others take it for granted of course, I don't.

Given you'd need this IRL, then this is a good thing.  I tend to scout for "footballers" regardless when playing FM and maintain this approach in this save.

Just now, Karnack said:

Interesting!

I have a similar tactic (different formation) and I have same results like you so far. I crush the best teams and often find myself fighting for the odd goal win against poorer teams. It's hard breaking down the bus

Not had a great sample size yet and tbf the only team playing the 2 DM's was Sheff Utd in the EFL Cup where I played a fully rotated team.  It'll be interesting to see whether my adjustments work when Pulis comes to town. 

[alinp]

The lads are back after the international break with everyone raring to go, except poor Phil Coutinho who's still out injured (and probably will be for a couple more months  ).  During the break, the transfer window "slammed" shut.  Mr Edwards was busy...

We're off to Spurs for Game 4 & the line up is the same as last time out...

Spurs are playing a 4-2-3-1 Wide.  My only adjustment for the match is to remove Play out of Defence.  I do this for 2 reasons... 1 - they have 4 attacking players hence knocking the ball around at the back could prove dangerous and 2 - because their wingers are naturally higher, I want to get the ball to my front guys quicker.

HT and we're 1 up through Lallana.  Latterly in the half, Spurs went "attacking", but I held my nerve and made no changes so I could see how it played out.  Obviously, there was lots of space left behind their defence and I think I could make better use of it.  Changes - drop d-line to Normal and remove WBiB.  Lovren's been on a yellow since early on, so on 63 I decide not to risk it any further and sub him for Sakho.  Mane slips in Sturridge on 73, but his shots cannons back off the bar.  15 to go and I bring on fresh legs - Schopf & Riedewald for Lallana & Henderson.  On 78, a swift counter ends with Mane setting up Sturridge to make it 2-0.  I go to Counter.  No further goals.

Well in the lads...

Numbers

[alinp]

Game 5 - Stoke Away...

They're playing a 4-4-1-1.  We've not played against this formation yet, but my initial thought is to treat it as similar to the 4-2-3-1, so removing PooD.  Still 0-0 at half time despite dominating.  I've had to bring Origi on for Sturridge who was injured at about 32.  We've had 5 Long Shots (of 8 shots in total), so WBiB doesn't seem to be doing much.  Therefore, taking it off.  Still no breakthrough by 60, so I max out width & change to mixed passing to try and stretch the play. On 70 I try Attacking, on 80 Very Fluid.

Finished 0-0

Stats

[alinp]

EFL Cup 3rd Road v Brighton (away).

They're playing 4-4-2 and I've gone for the same set up as used v Bournemouth, i.e. remove PooD, add Exploit the Middle.

Full rotation again and a 2-1 win thanks to goals from Milner & Wijnaldum.

 

[TheJanitor]

Quality signing, Cubas. Give him time in Regista and he will flourish.

Glad to see you are doing well, smashed Man City there, well done!

I've noticed against Stoke and Leicester you removed WBIB and went Attacking, because you were searching for a goal. If they looked to defend in numbers, then it could actually jam your attack a bit. You have little space to exploit in those situations and you're overcrowding it with players, aswell as giving them more freedom to take punts from distance, which isn't a healthy combination. Try creating space by dropping deeper, building up patiently, forcing them to come at you and leave more space.

Play Wider is actually a decent shout, but with a Winger, FB/a and WB/s I think you are already playing quite wide, so it is something to consider reviewing.

Keep it up!

[alinp]

1 hour ago, TheJanitor said:

Quality signing, Cubas. Give him time in Regista and he will flourish.

Glad to see you are doing well, smashed Man City there, well done!

I've noticed against Stoke and Leicester you removed WBIB and went Attacking, because you were searching for a goal. If they looked to defend in numbers, then it could actually jam your attack a bit. You have little space to exploit in those situations and you're overcrowding it with players, aswell as giving them more freedom to take punts from distance, which isn't a healthy combination. Try creating space by dropping deeper, building up patiently, forcing them to come at you and leave more space.

Play Wider is actually a decent shout, but with a Winger, FB/a and WB/s I think you are already playing quite wide, so it is something to consider reviewing.

Keep it up!

Thanks

I tend to use the Wide shout when either I notice their defending narrowly or have weak flanks (i.e. only 1 wide player per side) to encourage using the available width or just as something different if throwing anything at it during final minutes to try and breakthrough, as with the changes v Stoke & Leicester.  It naturally seems a negative step to drop when you've only 10 minutes left to try and grab a winner.  Mane as my W(A) - with Roam remember - doesn't stay wide that much!

On or off, WBiB didn't make much difference in the Stoke match - the Long Shot rate was similar both halves (5 of 8 & 6 of 9).

Unfortunately Cubas has WP issues, hence why we immediately loaned him back out.

The Spurs match was probably the most interesting for me so far.  I was very nervous up to half time, hence the changes, however I was impressed how well my back line did away against a good team by playing a little deeper.

[alinp]

Next up & Pulis comes to town...

They set up 4-1-4-1 & I leave everything as per the default.  No breakthrough by half time so I make the following changes - Mentality to Standard, Mix Width, Mixed Passing, WBiB off. 

In front through Can on 47 (Pen), but Lovren then gets himself sent off for 2 yellows on 62 (I had "subbed" him, but he went and got booked before it could be made).  I change to a 4-4-2 Diamond (but with just 1 up top) by removing the winger role and shifting the AP central.  I also change to Counter.  2 up through an Evans o.g. (69). 

Pulis doesn't change WBA's set up at all as far as I can tell throughout.

[alinp]

1st October and we're now fully fluent in the tactic...

we're 2nd in the league + here's some other stats tables...

[alinp]

Next up - Watford at home.  They line up 5-3-2 (another new challenge).  I make a couple of changes - Play Wide & Mixed Passing.  I kinda mentioned this earlier, but to me maximising our attacking width makes sense when the opposition only has 1 flank player per side & it seems natural to let our passing length increase at the same time.

0-0 at half time.  Decided to removed PooD to speed up getting the ball forward and into the space in front of their defence.  No joy by 60, so dropped to Standard mentality to see if that created some space.  Still no joy on 75 - added Be More Expressive & 5 minutes later, went Attacking.  Unfortunately failed to breakthrough.  Finished 0-0.

As an aside, Sturridge got injured sprinting and is now out for 3-4 months (sometimes this game is too realistic!!).

[Grokaer]

Great thread alinp, some really helpful tactical and in game play information here.

You've had a good start to the season with some good results so far but I was wondering if you may sometimes struggle to break down teams that are sitting deeper and were compact as a unit when you are playing with 'Pass into Space', especially on a regular basis as the more successful you are, the more teams will sit deeper against you. I'm presuming from your posts that you have kept 'Pass into Space' on all the time as you felt it was important for creating the attacking movement you were after. 'Pass into Space' is great for hitting through balls into space but if a team is defending with a low defensive line and are very compact then that will limit the space for your roaming attackers to move into. In that scenario could it be more productive to switch off 'Pass into Space' and switch on 'Run at Defence'?

The best attacking teams can create space and then capitalise on that space before the space is closed down. When the opposition are playing a higher defensive line there is more space in behind, making 'Pass into Space' a potentially potent weapon in penetrating the opposition defensive setup. When the opposition are playing a lower defensive line then there is limited space for attacking movement in behind making it harder for these through balls to either find their target or to penetrate the defensive line. In this deeper defensive line scenario, a couple of other options are to make use of the width of the pitch, especially if the opposition are sitting compact and/or are weaker on the flanks (which you are doing) and to specifically run at the opposition with the 'Run at Defence' option. Running direct at defenders quite often creates panic. Panic leads to bad decision making. Bad decision making leads to attacking opportunity and space. Running at defenders creates space as defenders go to close down the threat of the player with the ball. That closing down creates space both for the man with the ball to play in and the other attackers without the ball to move into and if you are able to get your attacking players into that space quick enough then they can potentially do some damage. Your attackers will still roam, but hopefully they roam into the space that has just been created by either your attacker beating the opposition defender and thus having to be closed down by another opposition defender thus pulling the second opposition defender out of position, or if your attacker is closed down by more than one defender, the space that was created when both defenders left their respective positions to close your attacker down.

Increasing tempo can sometimes be helpful as although it can make it harder for you to be accurate with passing, it can also remove decision making time for the defenders. Anything that decreases decision making time for defenders is always a potential option. Perhaps 'Shoot on Sight' when all else fails, you'll never win the lottery unless you buy a ticket

Thanks for sharing your insight, I always find this kind of thread very helpful and interesting and you always find nuggets to take away (as I have here) and adapt into your own game.

I am starting a fresh game, playing Liverpool also but have decided to start afresh tactically from my previous Football Manager norms. Looking to try and bring Klopp's counter pressing using a standard mentality with a very fluid shape, defensive line and closing down set to maximum levels, preventing goalkeeper distribution, shorter passing and low crosses. Most of the other Team Instructions are optional during the match depending on how the opposition are facing up to me and what I need to do for the remainder of the match. I am in a 4-1-2-3 DM formation but in the very early stages of working out my tactical options/player roles for the players at my disposal and integrating that into the Klopp philosophy of counter pressing and quick transition but retaining a solid defensive base. Like you, I have the same roles and duties in my front 3 and if it's ok with you, I have borrowed your roaming instruction for my two wide attackers and on my attacking most central midfielder who is a CM with an Attack duty. My central midfield trio (DM, CM, CM) is initially set up as DLP(Defend) for DM, Box-to-Box(Support) and CM(Attack) for the two central midfielders. I already had my Sweeper Keeper with support duty and distribute quickly, my 2 central defenders will either end up as a Ball playing defender / Central defender or 2 * Central Defender combination. My fullbacks will either be a combination of FB or WB - I am undecided about the full back role and central midfield trio as we speak and won't know more till I watch some games. Still very early on in the process!

[Johnleegriffin]

I play as liverpool. I found that playing very fluid and on overload works perfect for klopps high press. 

The main aim of overload is to win back the ball quick in the  opponents half and to go all out to score. 

[Grokaer]

For what it's worth, this is the base tactic I'm starting to evolve as a starting point for all games so far


The team instructions


The only player instructions I have added so far are:
Gk - distribute quickly
CMatt - roam from position
APatt - roam from position
Watt - roam from position thanks for the roaming tips alinp

The other thing I nicked from alinp was playing a Regista (sup) in the DM position , I was originally going to play the DM as a DLP (def), however, seeing as my approach with defensive line and pressing is so aggressive, it seemed logical to take the more aggressive playmaker option for my DM.

From this base position I can modify depending on who I am playing or how the game is going. Like alinp, only a small sample of games and the tactic not fluid yet (I have been testing the tactic for a few matches on an existing game before using it to start a new game with the 17.2 patch).

I started using this from my last preseason game (1st season of game), and then for my first 3 Premier League games and 1 EFL Cup match. Here are the stats:

Game 1 (Last preseason friendly) San Jose 0 Liverpool 4


Game 2 (1st match of Premier League) Stoke 1 Liverpool 6


Game 3 (2nd match of Premier League) Liverpool 2 Man City 1


Game 4 (EFL Cup 2nd round, I played youth/squad players who hadn't played yet) Liverpool 3 Chesterfield 1


Game 5 (3rd match of Premier League) Liverpool 3 West Brom 0


Observations so far:

Negatives - 
1.
opposition have been breaking our defensive line and getting 1 on 1 from 30 - 50 yards out from our goal a little too much but we have been fortunate and only conceded once from this   so far, more often defender(s) get back and tackle / crowd out or is harrying and forcing player to shoot early and off target and our keeper has made the odd save. Tactic familiarly, Player / Manager familiarity, improved ball retention and perhaps playing Offside will help improve this. An occasional and important concern but not a tactic breaker.
2.
Occasionally it looks like we are shooting too quickly and from too far out - more down to decision making and lack of familiarity as on most occasions, the player shooting had support
3.
Some player energy levels - better substituting and improved stamina will help here as will resting players occasionally (which will have the bonus of being able to blood certain youngsters and give them some game time [Alexander-Arnold, Ojo, Grujic, Gomez, Origi]).

Positives -
1.
Really dominating games for the most part, going through periods of creating streams of chances (if only the finishing was better ), occasional periods of not creating much but dominating the game.
2.
Some great fast flowing breaks after quick transitions, good interplay between attackers and early signs of understanding
3.
defending as a team, attacking as a team
4.
Some great pressing as a team


The City game especially, I had 5 CCCs compared to 1 for City. I went down a goal to City after about 15 mins before going in at half time 1-1. I totally dominated the first half hence made no tweaks, even while we were losing. I scored 2nd in the 2nd half and continued dominating the game, so much so that I didn't want to change anything. Played a less aggressive version of the tactic that was about ball retention for the last 10 mins to be sure and threw in a couple of time wasting/game breaking up substitutions.

This is completely in it's infancy and needs refining as I've only used as a staring point on 2 occasions for last 5-10 mins to try and close out game (often not really needing to but just trying to limit risk of being caught on counter in behind) but this was the change I made when I went less aggressively tactically

change Mentality to Defensive

No player instructions change
added Pass into Space as guessing late on, opponents will be pressing and leaving space behind so a good pass with a willing runner or two and I can be in business.

All very early days but seems very promising so far. It's interesting to note some similarities with alinp's approach, the roaming on the CMatt and 2 wide forwards and the DM Regista I directly took from alinp's excellent approach (thanks alinp - hope you don't mind ), the other similarities are purely coincidental and had been decided on before reading alinp's post and also some fundamental differences in our approaches.

I went with a Sweeper Keeper (support) to help with the high defensive line and close the gap between keeper and defenders a little, and again keeps that aggressive consistency in this tactical approach.
Very fluid seems perfect for Klopp's counter pressing and it seems to work pretty well so far in the games.
After having spent endless time watching Coutinho perform poorly as IF (att) I decided to try him as an AP (att). He performs much better in that role for me.
The tactical roles I'm monitoring now in the base tactic are the full back areas and central midfield area. Normally with a midfield triangle I would look to have a sitter, a runner and an attacker with a defend, support and attack duty all used so am concerned that 2 support duties and an attack duty may be too aggressive. May be a case that I only need to alter it for certain circumstances. The full back areas, especially when considered against the wide attackers - all have attack duties rather than having alternate duties (i.e. if attack on full back then support on attacker and vice versa). These may all be considerations to employ on the less aggressive tactic.

My purchases were:
Ricardo Rodriguez (great crosser and good at set pieces, also long throw), Lacazette (he's been a beast, an astonishing 10 goals in 4 games) and a few youngsters

Players Sold:
Sakho, Illori, Ings, Sturridge


Set Piece setups (left and right setups are the same - perhaps too aggressive but just trying for fun)

Throw Ins - Long


Corners Attack


Corners Defend


FreeKicks Attack - I spent no time trying to optimize this setup


FreeKicks Defend - again, no time spent optimizing this setup



Sorry if I have jumped in on your thread alinp, just tell me to go if you like. I just thought a brief comparison between our styles (and obviously anything contributed by others) would be informative and potentially useful for all of us.

[MBarbaric]

any screenshots from the match to see how players position themselves on the field?

[alinp]

6 hours ago, Johnleegriffin said:

I play as liverpool. I found that playing very fluid and on overload works perfect for klopps high press. 

The main aim of overload is to win back the ball quick in the  opponents half and to go all out to score. 

Hmmm... so what are your possession numbers like, given Klopp has been quite clear that they are a possession based team and that the pressing is a method of getting the ball back and not the be all and end all of the tactic.

[alinp]

1 hour ago, Grokaer said:

Sorry if I have jumped in on your thread alinp, just tell me to go if you like. I just thought a brief comparison between our styles (and obviously anything contributed by others) would be informative and potentially useful for all of us.

Not at all, you're more than welcome. 

I'm interested to know what adjustments you made in game so far from your base tactic.

Picking up in where we differ, I considered Very Fluid and concur it suits Klopp's style, but in this case I felt that with both the RGA & AP (hence 2 playmaker roles), Fluid would be more appropriate.  I also find (generally) that defending can be a bit haphazard with VF.  Having decided to stay as Fluid, I then felt that the mentality should be on the plus side of neutral (i.e. we're normally the better team and need to take the game to the oppo), hence felt Control fitted.

Role wise, we seem to agree that the Lallana role is CM(A), but IMO his starting point is to the right.  I like the way Wijnaldum plays the other CM role IRL and that he's very much a continuity player.  That's why I've made the role a kind of advanced holding midfielder as CM(S) with Hold Position, which encourages him to stay in support of attacks rather than get overly involved in the final third, plus it means he doesn't occupy the space I want the Coutinho role to use (although my Phil is crocked and will be for some time).

I see you've noticed in your earlier post issues regarding teams sitting back.  My front 4 already can dribble more by either given or default PI, so I'm not sure adding Run at Defence is a correct LFC option, even if it is a good FM ploy for such occasions.

Anyway, I'm going to crack on and see how things develop.

BTW, I've changed both CD's to CD(D) as I didn't actually feel a BPD was necessary (or really accurate).

[alinp]

Back to the action...

Before moving on, I reviewed some of the previous numbers and comments from the contributors to this thread (plus some other insights I'd picked up elsewhere) and decided to remove WBiB, as I didn't feel we were getting any benefit from it and in fact it could be proving counter productive by having players endlessly passing the ball around in preference to slipping in a forward or breaking midfielder resulting in actually taking more shots from distance rather than less, and also remove Dribble Less, thus leaving this in a neutral position and up to the players.

Next up - Hull away.  After about 30, we hadn't broken through and I noticed that we were having a lot of our shots blocked.  I remembered an old thread (possibly by @RTHerringbone) in which it was mentioned that this could be improved by increasing tempo.  I had the option to simply do this, or increase by another method, which I did by switching to Attacking.  Just before half time, we broke through thanks to an O.G.  I kept things the same until around 60, before dropping back to Control.  As the game went on we continued to dominate and added 3 further goals for a nice 4-0 win.

[alinp]

Crystal Palace at home next.

They're playing 4141 (as were Hull last match - just noticed I failed to mention this).  Comfortably 2 up at half time.  No changes and nothing much else happened.  2-0 final score line.

[alinp]

A heavily rotated team managed a 4-2 win over Norwich (away) in the EFL Cup & next up are Swansea (Away).  They line up 4-2-1-3 DM Wide, which I've not come up against as yet.  Initially I'll leave everything as is, but my first thought is how do I get past their 2 DM's.  Some nice work between Firmino & Mane put us 1 up on 15 and that's how it stayed.

[alinp]

That rounded of the month nicely.

League Table

 

[Grokaer]

3 hours ago, alinp said:

I'm interested to know what adjustments you made in game so far from your base tactic.

Funnily enough I didn't really make any. My expectation was that I would be making lots of changes and evolving the tactic right from the word go but what surprised me was how well the team looked to be playing and dominating the majority of the small sample of games played so far. The team shape, pressing and high defensive line was there to see, as was the roaming movement of the front 4 if you like. The idea was to get that right and then look at the other team / player  instructions later. I will need to play a lot more games to be sure but I am wondering if I have perhaps got lucky by leaving the other Team Instructions untouched. I basically unwittingly increased the scope of the choices available to the players by not limiting the parameters by which their behaviour on the pitch was governed. This effectively increased their creative freedom by not forcing players decision making down a particular avenue all the time. The player with the ball has more options available and playing as Liverpool, should be at a level of decision making to make a reasonable amount of good decisions. This also makes 'what happens next' more unpredictable for the opposition. Perhaps this mix of extreme settings along with creative neutrality gives the players clear instructions on what to do to win the ball back when they don't have possession and the freedom to express themselves creatively when in possession.

The 'Very Fluid' setting allied to the extreme pressing is the closest we can get to Klopp's kind of pressing, which I believe to be about swarming the player on the ball. There are a few moments occasionally in games where you can see an almost swarming of the player on the ball although on many occasions it has more of a player on player look and feel.

Even though I borrowed your individual 'Roaming' idea for 3 of the front 4 players (Complete Forward already has roaming), the way I was fundamentally creating the whole setup was very 'Team' orientated. This blinded me with regards to the issue of 'Run at Defence' even though you had already shown me with 'Roaming'! I tried 'Run at Defence' in one of the games I mentioned above as a Team Instruction and it had very little effect - probably because it's aimed at all the players so I will now have players running with the ball that I don't want to be, turning over possession, reducing the chances of reward and increasing the risk. Importantly, it's not what Liverpool do. So, I totally agree with your comment below -

4 hours ago, alinp said:

I see you've noticed in your earlier post issues regarding teams sitting back.  My front 4 already can dribble more by either given or default PI, so I'm not sure adding Run at Defence is a correct LFC option, even if it is a good FM ploy for such occasions.

Certain functions should be dictated to by the Team, and certain instructions (in this case) need to be limited to certain players. Getting the right balance is crucial.

 

4 hours ago, alinp said:

Picking up in where we differ, I considered Very Fluid and concur it suits Klopp's style, but in this case I felt that with both the RGA & AP (hence 2 playmaker roles), Fluid would be more appropriate.  I also find (generally) that defending can be a bit haphazard with VF.  Having decided to stay as Fluid, I then felt that the mentality should be on the plus side of neutral (i.e. we're normally the better team and need to take the game to the oppo), hence felt Control fitted.

I felt standard was as high a mentality as I wanted to go for a base tactic when using 'Very Fluid'. I am by no means fixed to staying 'Very Fluid' as I am concerned by the occasional one on ones but I need a larger sample set. Also, it's a case of the good far outweighing the bad. I would lose some 'good' to compensate for some 'bad'. I think I need more data to make my mind up but I definitely see the logic of what you are saying and it makes very good sense.

 

4 hours ago, alinp said:

Role wise, we seem to agree that the Lallana role is CM(A), but IMO his starting point is to the right.  I like the way Wijnaldum plays the other CM role IRL and that he's very much a continuity player.  That's why I've made the role a kind of advanced holding midfielder as CM(S) with Hold Position, which encourages him to stay in support of attacks rather than get overly involved in the final third, plus it means he doesn't occupy the space I want the Coutinho role to use (although my Phil is crocked and will be for some time).

You are correct about Lallana's starting point, a careless error in detail on my part.  The other position is an interesting one. Yours seems a valid interpretation to me but it also seems that as time has gone on, the Wijnaldum position has evolved this season. I think it was more of a holding role before, although a little higher up the field than a DM (he was really good at keeping things ticking over) I think more and more there is an element of being all over the pitch, one minute supporting a move forward and getting into a position to score around the opponents penalty box and then chasing back and thwarting an opponents move near the Liverpool penalty area. So I'm trying to get that position to provide an option for attacking and be protection for defending so I went for Box to Box.

At this point you have played a season on Touch with your tactic and now been working on it on the full version so you will know much more about your tactic than I do about mine. My information is only based on initial observation of 5 games since Friday night so far. I'm going to start setting up a new game this week and running with this tactic to try and learn more and see where it takes me.

[Grokaer]

5 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

any screenshots from the match to see how players position themselves on the field?

I've not really got to that stage yet, I just wanted to see the effect of the pressing / shape / defensive line expecting to be ripped to shreds and was surprised it looked quite good and I was dominating most of all the games to a greater or lesser degree. It may be that there is a degree of chaos at times in terms of positioning - tactic not fluid so that doesn't help, and only played a small sample of teams so plenty other teams, systems and environments to face yet. I'm going to start a new game this week and play more matches, learn some more about my tactic and see how alinp's game progresses.

[alinp]

13 hours ago, Grokaer said:

You are correct about Lallana's starting point, a careless error in detail on my part.  The other position is an interesting one. Yours seems a valid interpretation to me but it also seems that as time has gone on, the Wijnaldum position has evolved this season. I think it was more of a holding role before, although a little higher up the field than a DM (he was really good at keeping things ticking over) I think more and more there is an element of being all over the pitch, one minute supporting a move forward and getting into a position to score around the opponents penalty box and then chasing back and thwarting an opponents move near the Liverpool penalty area. So I'm trying to get that position to provide an option for attacking and be protection for defending so I went for Box to Box.

At this point you have played a season on Touch with your tactic and now been working on it on the full version so you will know much more about your tactic than I do about mine. My information is only based on initial observation of 5 games since Friday night so far. I'm going to start setting up a new game this week and running with this tactic to try and learn more and see where it takes me.

I think the biggest difference in the (let's call it) supporting CM IRL is who plays the role.  Can is certainly much more of a driving force looking to enhance and attacks and get in the box himself, so possibly he suits BBM more.  I actually think he's probably a better cover for Lallana than Wijnaldum.  I think I prefer the idea that 1 of my CM's tries to hold position, especially given that the others all roam (including Henderson).

I've been using my FMT version to try out different variations.  I'm currently trying to increase my possession share (actually I note mine is generally higher than yours anyway) as the real life version is often pushing 65 - 70%.

[Grokaer]

31 minutes ago, alinp said:

I think the biggest difference in the (let's call it) supporting CM IRL is who plays the role.  Can is certainly much more of a driving force looking to enhance and attacks and get in the box himself, so possibly he suits BBM more.  I actually think he's probably a better cover for Lallana than Wijnaldum.  I think I prefer the idea that 1 of my CM's tries to hold position, especially given that the others all roam (including Henderson).

Yep, that's a good point, I'd forgotten - currently at work so can't check, I presume you mean that the Regista is roaming? I was originally thinking of a DLP (defend) in the DM role. If all my midfield are roaming, that may be a contributor to the one on ones I concede.
 

35 minutes ago, alinp said:

I've been using my FMT version to try out different variations.  I'm currently trying to increase my possession share (actually I note mine is generally higher than yours anyway) as the real life version is often pushing 65 - 70%.

Yes, I will definitely need to look at possession, I'm just not sure that 'Retain Possession' Team Instruction is the answer as although Klopp  wants to have possession and thus control of the game, he is looking to go forward with that possession IRL. I feel the 'Retain Possession' Team Instruction will negate this moving forward with possession but won't know for sure till I try it. I only played this tactic for 5 games so my team is not yet fully familiar with the tactic so it may well be that my possession ceiling level is still to be reached - how high that can go though is questionable. I think, rather than just starting a new game, I will persist with the old game and get my team 100% familiar with the base tactic, see what that gives me now and then start looking at testing individual settings with a view to gaining a greater control over the ball during matches.

Thanks for your helpful feedback alinp, you've given me some great food for thought, much appreciated. Good to see your season still going well! I'll let you know how it goes.

[dannysheard]

Just wanted to say, I'm definitely reading/enjoying this as well

 

[Grokaer]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 18:59, alinp said:

Role wise, we seem to agree that the Lallana role is CM(A), but IMO his starting point is to the right.  I like the way Wijnaldum plays the other CM role IRL and that he's very much a continuity player.  That's why I've made the role a kind of advanced holding midfielder as CM(S) with Hold Position, which encourages him to stay in support of attacks rather than get overly involved in the final third, plus it means he doesn't occupy the space I want the Coutinho role to use (although my Phil is crocked and will be for some time).

BTW, I've changed both CD's to CD(D) as I didn't actually feel a BPD was necessary (or really accurate).

Ironic, that a couple of days after we were discussing the Wijnaldum position, we get the chance to see a Liverpool match live.

I watched Wijnaldum quite closely last night and after re-reading your post above, IMO you have it spot on in terms of the available roles/duties with the CM (Support) with 'Hold Position' as a player instruction. By swapping Lallana  I was trying to balance the midfield by following (Sitter / Runner / Attacker) and originally intended to fill those roles with DM (DLP Defend) / CM (Box to Box Support) / CM (CM Attack), got distracted when I read the accompanying text for Regista (I've never used this role before), felt the more aggressive nature was in keeping with the more aggressive tactic and never realised Regista was roaming also. Doh!

Your point about having him hold so as not to interfere with Coutinho is spot on. I have decided to play a few more matches on my old game and refine the tactic some more before I start a new game. Get that possession up as close to 70 as I can get it. I played another 3 matches last night including a 2-0 league win, a crazy 3-3 draw away to Spurs and a 3-1 win against Swansea but I watched the matches more closely this time, paying attention to certain player positions and could see at certain points I had problems in the centre of midfield. The central midfield area was incongruent with the rest of the formation. The rest of the formation was nicely spread out on the pitch in good position relative to my formation, but my midfield 3 were squashed up in comparison, almost on top of each other. Lots of space between my midfield trio and almost every other player in the formation. On one of the goals I conceded, this exact scenario unfolded and (I believe) caused 2 of the 3 to press the same player with the ball, opening my midfield up for a more straight forward through ball (than it should have been) to the striker who was playing on the shoulder of my left DC. Hence he was straight through 1 on 1 with my keeper. 2 of the 3 midfielders (the Regista DM and Box to Box were equally close to their player with the ball so guessing that caused them to both try and close him down. Because my central midfield trio was so tight and narrow it meant these 2 players were probably a yard or 2 further away from the player with the ball giving him not only a clear path for the pass but also more time to make it.

I seem to be moving towards your settings.  I have my left wing back on Attack duty, Moreno when he played there was definitely more Attack, Milner - arguable, he is still very attacking but could also be construed as support - I'm going to keep him on Attack for the time being, and persevere with Ultra Fluid / Standard as I see some great attacking moves and goals and I think this is more in keeping with Liverpool's attacking freedom approach. Will be interesting to see if I can make that work. I suspect it could be a case that I'll be able to use Ultra Fluid on some games but there may be a few where I have to drop that shape to Fluid. Time will teach me when it's right to go one way and when it's right to go another.

I also removed my left sided Ball Playing Defender for a normal CD (2 DCs now) for the reason I thought it may improve my possession levels a little bit.

Thanks so much for your valued input alinp, you've really helped me move on a little bit more. Keep the good results coming in your game!

[Grokaer]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 15:15, dannysheard said:

Just wanted to say, I'm definitely reading/enjoying this as well

 

It is a good thread isn't it. Good learning curve for me personally with great emphasis on a particular style of play. I had never played a proper high press, high D-Line and fluidic style before so had to read up a little bit before trying a few days ago. This thread has helped me greatly in moving onto the next stage. I was initially excited with my starting point earlier in the thread as it was the first time I had created a tactic and almost straight away was saw some amazing attacking movement and goals. After the initial euphoria I looked a little more closely and could see that despite the good attacking movement, flair and goals, there were some issues that were making me more vulnerable than I needed to be.

[alinp]

20 minutes ago, Grokaer said:

Thanks so much for your valued input alinp, you've really helped me move on a little bit more. Keep the good results coming in your game!

Thank you for your input also.

So, meanwhile, I've been tinkering with my FMT version of this and think it's time to try these in the full fat version.  Nothing major though - all I've actually done is removed the Pass into Space and WBiB instruction from the default setting.  Removing these doesn't affect the fluidity of the tactic.  The aim of the changes are to a) increase possession share by removing the through ball instruction, hence leaving it to my players to decide when such is best appropriate (yes, I know I'm leaning towards VF, but I don't want to go there (yet) for reasons previously stated), and b) remove an instruction that I didn't see providing any benefit.

Next up - Man Utd at home.

[alinp]

Man Utd (H) - 4-4-1-1

The last time we faced this formation was Stoke in Game 5. Since then, we've become fluid in the tactic and I've now made the base changes mentioned above. I decide once again to remove PooD in an attempt to get the ball into the space between their lines quicker.  Now Man U, like it or not, are a good team and they go ahead on 12, but I'm happy with how we're playing and their goal definitely comes against the run of play.  On 25 Firmino, playing CF, equalises having been slipped in by Lallana, who today is playing Phil's role.  We continue to dominate, but don't break through until 76 when, luckily for us, Ibra heads into his own goal defending a corner.  I'm happy with a 2-1 win against a major rival.

Numbers...

[alinp]

Arsenal (H) - 4-2-3-1 Top of the table clash.

Going  in to the match, the Arse are top and we're a point behind in 2nd, with Chelski & Citeh 4 points behind us in 3rd & 4th respectively.

Initially, I remove PooD & also add back in Pass into Space in order to try and get the ball past their aggressive front 4.  On about 30, I feel we're not really competing as well as I'd like, despite the stats being fairly even.

I took the opportunity to look back at my notes regarding the Spurs game, where we also faced an aggressive 4231.  I noted I'd dropped the d-line in that game, so I did the same here.  I also dropped mentality to Standard to try and give my players a bit more time on the ball.  By half time, the match is still 0-0 and I've not honestly noticed much difference, so I again look back to the Spurs match and noted that I didn't change mentality there, so back we went to Control.  This worked and goals from Can & Mane gave us a 2-0 victory and improved numbers.

[alinp]

The big games are coming think and fast now... Mersey derby time.  Everton (Away).

To re-cap, our default now looks like this...

They go 4213DM.  I've only faced this once before this season, and that was with a rotated XI v Norwich in the EFL Cup, when I made no changes from the then default.  I therefore start with no changes to the now default.

0-0 at half time (although we missed a pen ), but we were dominating possession and seemed to be gaining more control as the match went on.  I max out width for the 2nd half.  Good old Ev give us another pen on 47 and Can slots home.  Further goals from Mane (75) & Origi (77) put us 3 up, then Everton change to this

If their plan was to draw us forward and score on the break, then it worked with Miralles getting them 1 back.  I drop our d-line to Normal following their goal and the game finishes 3-1 to the mighty reds.  Liverpool is RED

[IndyManager]

Fascinating how close this is to real life, despite some obvious personnel changes. I'm learning much from reading, so thanks.

Do you find in general that the players are rated properly? I am not playing Liverpool, but judging from some of the transfer activity I'm seeing three seasons in, the game does not rate some of the young players as highly as they are showing they might be.