Yellow cards for BW Midfielders

[Ricey]

Has anyone noticed that ball winning midfielders get a lot of yellow cards?

If you have a player with that role in your tactic, you dont get the option to make him 'Ease off tackles'

Surely it should be an option to ask a ball winning midfielder to use better judgement in tackles?

One player I have has just hit 15 yellows in 32 games (Aggression 9), another has 16 yellows in 29 games (Aggression 14). That seems very high to me and I should have the option to get the player to tone the tackling down.

The BWM role is important to my struggling Prem side and I dont really want to change it.

 

EDIT Neither player has any report that they are troublemakers from scouts nor coaches.

[Tajerio]

If you're using a ball-winning midfielder, why would you have him Ease Off Tackles?  The whole point of the BWM is for him to close down and tackle aggressively, and doing that will inevitably result in yellow cards no matter how skillful the player.  If you don't like the hard tackling, you could always take a CM(s) and give him Close Down More or Close Down Much More.

[westy8chimp]

9 hours ago, Ricey said:

Has anyone noticed that ball winning midfielders get a lot of yellow cards?

If you have a player with that role in your tactic, you dont get the option to make him 'Ease off tackles'

Surely it should be an option to ask a ball winning midfielder to use better judgement in tackles?

One player I have has just hit 15 yellows in 32 games (Aggression 9), another has 16 yellows in 29 games (Aggression 14). That seems very high to me and I should have the option to get the player to tone the tackling down.

The BWM role is important to my struggling Prem side and I dont really want to change it.

 

EDIT Neither player has any report that they are troublemakers from scouts nor coaches.

the players who have this role as their preferred ... are the likes of Cattermole, Coquelin etc who are yellow card magnets IRL. It's the nature of the role, to chase down aggressively and win the ball back for the team. You would use a CM/DM/DLP if you just wanted more of a shepherd type player with more discipline.

tactics play a huge part in players picking up excessive cards too ... not just role. i.e. in a 4312 narrow full backs get overwhelmed vs teams playing wingers and full backs and will then pick up more yellows. if you play 352 your cbs tend to get more yellows ... so check your tactic isn't isolating your BWM as well. But even in the best setup a BWM will naturally pick up a lot of cards.

[champmanlegend]

I've found that employing a DLP with the Defend instruction works better as long as you can get the right person in the role. They seem to break up the play just as effectively and get nowhere near as many cards. Of course you do need the right sort of player in the role.

[fmFutbolManager]

I play with 2 ball winning midfielders in the CM positions. One has 3 yellows in 8 and the other 2 in 10. What players do you have around them and are they supported?

[Ricey]

Thank you fro the replies, you make some interesting points.

I spose I also have to consider the fact my team are in their 2nd prem league relegation battle and the oppo usually has more possesion.

This means my team have more tackles to make.

But my main point was that I should be able to determine and alter a players specific orders when he plays a certain role.

A BW midfielder should still have the ability to adjust his aggression, timing etc. Not all BWM are Cattermole's. Take a look at the form of West Hams Obiang, look at his tackling stats and yellow card tally.

If you read the discription of Ease Off Tackles in the tactics, its still an option that would make sense to a BW mid.

just my oppinion.

[puffascruffowitz]

What you might also try is using a DLP type player in the BWM role. They are usually not as good with defensive attributes, but I find they can do well in that role without being overly aggressive.

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, Ricey said:

Thank you fro the replies, you make some interesting points.

I spose I also have to consider the fact my team are in their 2nd prem league relegation battle and the oppo usually has more possesion.

This means my team have more tackles to make.

But my main point was that I should be able to determine and alter a players specific orders when he plays a certain role.

A BW midfielder should still have the ability to adjust his aggression, timing etc. Not all BWM are Cattermole's. Take a look at the form of West Hams Obiang, look at his tackling stats and yellow card tally.

If you read the discription of Ease Off Tackles in the tactics, its still an option that would make sense to a BW mid.

just my oppinion.

get your point... but I meant in the game the players whose best role is bwm. Obiang is DLP in FM. Converting real life player roles to FM is always going to be subjective. I'd argue IRL you could never pigeon hole a player as one type of role.

having a few preset roles with built in instructions I guess makes it easier for beginners. if you want a BWM (in effect) but with ease of tackles... start with CM D/S and build in the closing down etc

[fmFutbolManager]

It's not necessarily their aggressiveness that's causing their yellow cards. If they have a low tackling attribute, then they're not going to be winning the ball cleanly on most occasions. As I said above, I play very possession orientated tactics so use 2 BWMs and they have a couple of yellows between them. Both have high tackling attributes and good anticipation.

[sipsi]

BWM is the closest role to yellow and red cards. Players personality and hidden attributes are also effective.

What I look at these type of players are Workrate, Stamina, Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning(if player is slow, if fast positioning is not important), Composure, Aggression...

The trick is I always keep Aggression and Composure in balance. If a player has 19 agression and 8 composure, I never use that kind of player because even id the player has the best attributes he will most likely to see yellow or red easily so I always look for players like 14 aggression/14 composure... Decisions are also important.

Most of my saves I win the Fair Play Award of season.

[cns180784]

Have to disagree with composure reducing cards. I have Diego Poyet already picked up 5 yellows and he has played probably half of his games or bit more as a BWM and has 13 aggression 15 composure. Mile Jedinak is an out and out natural BWM with higher aggression and he has one less on 4 yellows both played similar amount of games.

However this is interesting, in the stats Jedinak in total in his competitive games has commited 25 fouls and Poyet only 16- but Jedinak has started 8 with 3 sub apps, Poyet 7 starts and 2 sub apps so just one more start and one more sub app for Jedinak, with him committing 9 more fouls. Jedinak does commit more fouls but Poyet has one more yellow card. I think this comes down to the tackling attribute, Jedinak has a 16 where Poyet has a 13. I think Jedinaks' fouls have been more minor pushing and has probably picked up his cards more due to persistent fouling. Poyet would have been more likely to pick up his cards from poorly times challenges. Also worth noting that Poyet has dives into tackles as a PPM, Jedinak doesnt which is surprising.

By the way i'm managing Aston Villa trying to get them back in the prem and i got Diego Poyet on a free at the start. Only 21 he's a gem. One of his PPM's was to play short simple passes which i have had him unlearn so his passing is now more expansive which he has the ability for. He's now working on switching ball to opposite flank and once he's learned that i'll see if he can unlearn diving into tackles.

[sipsi]

13 hours ago, cns180784 said:

Have to disagree with composure reducing cards. I have Diego Poyet already picked up 5 yellows and he has played probably half of his games or bit more as a BWM and has 13 aggression 15 composure. Mile Jedinak is an out and out natural BWM with higher aggression and he has one less on 4 yellows both played similar amount of games.

You're right here, better the player tackles, less yellow or red cards he'll likely to see. But what I want to point  hereis just check every single player on football world who sees many yellow and red cards you'll see that they're the ones with "high aggression", "low composure" players. Statistically this is reflected in game engine this way. Not to forget hidden "dirtiness", "sportmanship" etc.

To open more just check as many as full backs and defensive midfielders. The ones with "high positioning" are the ones with "low pace and accelaration", the ones with "high accelaration and pace" are the ones with "low positioning". Of course there are some players with "high positioning, accelaration and pace" but these are very rare. What I wanted to point is this correlation.

[..Valhalla..]

I wouldn't attribute aggression to recklessness; it's more to do with how willing a player is to throw his body on the line for the team (along with bravery).

@Ricey - when your player picks up a yellow card in-match, just individually tell him to "calm down", I'd be reluctant to change tactics and/or player roles if your current system depends on it. Telling a yellow carded player to calm down is almost always enough. In have players constantly picking up yellow cards (sometimes half my team) but individually telling them to calm down each time sees me pick up very few reds.

[sipsi]

8 minutes ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

 

I wouldn't attribute aggression to recklessness; it's more to do with how willing a player is to throw his body on the line for the team (along with bravery).

 

Me neither. I'm just pointing that High Agression, Dirtiness and Low Sportmanship causes yellow and red cards. Aggression is required but high agression must be supported with good professionalism, tackling and decisions, even a good positioning can prevent a player from bad behaviour.

[sporadicsmiles]

21 hours ago, Ricey said:

A BW midfielder should still have the ability to adjust his aggression, timing etc. Not all BWM are Cattermole's. Take a look at the form of West Hams Obiang, look at his tackling stats and yellow card tally.

 

Well, if you choose a BWM you are expecting a specialist Cattermole type player who is going to aggresively attack everyone. If you want someone else, you can take a CM(S) or DM(D) and customize them until you are happy. I have a DM(D) with harder tackles so that he keeps the tough tackling aspects of the BWM but without the closing down (which I do not want him to do). 

The point is, if you want to keep some aspects of a BWM then the best thing to do is to customise a general role.

[cns180784]

12 hours ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

I wouldn't attribute aggression to recklessness; it's more to do with how willing a player is to throw his body on the line for the team (along with bravery).

@Ricey - when your player picks up a yellow card in-match, just individually tell him to "calm down", I'd be reluctant to change tactics and/or player roles if your current system depends on it. Telling a yellow carded player to calm down is almost always enough. In have players constantly picking up yellow cards (sometimes half my team) but individually telling them to calm down each time sees me pick up very few reds.

Good point about telling a carded player to calm down, i never thought of that. This can be done during the match or at half time and i just never thought to do it. All i've always done when a player gets booked is to have him ease off tackles and if its a BWM then i'd change him to CM defend or whatever.

[thomit]

BWM's do tend to pick up more yellow cards, that is just something that comes with the nature of that role. But if they're picking them up excessively, then that's a sign that the player isn't really up for the job. Good BWM's manages to do their job without getting carded too much. Hint: there aren't many good BWM's in the game ...

For example, I have 3 candidates for a BWM role in my Arsenal team, Elneny, Xhaka and Coquelin. Only one of them makes for a good BWM, the other two - who looks on paper to be well suited for the role - aren't really. Coquelin is the man.

[padelno91]

 some of my tactics created involving bwm(d) and dlp(s) because they are very good combination in my own personal experience. most of my new current saves feels like the game wanted me to play this combination together as the player roles suggested by my assistant manager, if you use it in standard fluid with a center midfield attack duty and wing backs it is a pretty much a counter attacking tactic. 

other than that, you can slot in dlp (d) on the midfield with bwm(s) on the sides... it will play the same role as b2b midfielder 

i remembered my darmstadt save where the 2 midfield duo using the same roles, it does not need to be only used in 3 man midfield system... it also works in 2 man pairings but relies heavily on wide players on the transition by running at the defense 

[herne79]

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 00:38, Ricey said:

Has anyone noticed that ball winning midfielders get a lot of yellow cards?

If you have a player with that role in your tactic, you dont get the option to make him 'Ease off tackles'

Surely it should be an option to ask a ball winning midfielder to use better judgement in tackles?

One player I have has just hit 15 yellows in 32 games (Aggression 9), another has 16 yellows in 29 games (Aggression 14). That seems very high to me and I should have the option to get the player to tone the tackling down.

The BWM role is important to my struggling Prem side and I dont really want to change it.

 

EDIT Neither player has any report that they are troublemakers from scouts nor coaches.

The BWM role is one of my favourite roles in the game, and players who are good at the role tend to be amongst my favourite players.  By it's very nature, the role may lead to the player picking up more cards simply because it's a role that instructs your player to not shy away from making challenges.  If they get stuck in more the chances are they may cause more fouls, especially if their attributes aren't up to the job.

However, if your BWM is picking up an excessive amount of cards, that may be indicative of the player(s) having a poor Dirtiness attribute (one of the hidden attributes) and/or the player being unsuitable for the role.  Check your coach reports to see if any mention the player pushing the boundaries (or whatever the actual wording is).

I'd also question you using a player with low Aggression (9) in the role.  The role instructs the player to press hard and get stuck in, which is kind of a conflict when the player has low Aggression.  Decisions will also be important, as will Tackling.

And speaking of Aggression, this attribute may only indirectly lead to more fouls (and cards).  The Online Manual (see the tab at the top of this forum) does a pretty good job of describing player attributes.  Here's what it says about Aggression:

"This reflects a player’s attitude in terms of playing mentality but is not necessarily a dirtiness indicator. A more aggressive player will look to involve himself in every incident and get stuck in, perhaps at the expense of a yellow card or two. A less aggressive player may shy away from situations and merely drop into his comfort zone, waiting for the play to find him."

It helps a player get stuck in, and because they are more likely to get stuck in they become more at risk of picking up a booking.  A BWM is exactly that, so you need Aggression to help him.

So, TL;DR a BWM with decent levels of Aggression can be an absolute monster of a player.  He'll cause some fouls and pick up bookings but so long as his Dirtiness attribute isn't high, these shouldn't be excessive.

[westy8chimp]

BWM is a great role. Worth a few yellow cards. One of the unsung advantages of the bwm ... is sideways movement which is hard to achieve from lots of other roles. For instance in a narrow diamond I would always try to incorporate a bwm as one if not both cm roles as they will actively hunt down AI wingers if they seek to overload your narrow tactic.

what I wouldn't do with the role is have any dependency on it .. i.e. the base/anchor of midfield. IMO it is a CM role not a DM role. I would always supplement the bwm role with a defensive DLP, anchor man, DM or HB behind.

[ChasingRabbit]

On 20. 1. 2017 at 15:03, OneUnited said:

I play with 2 ball winning midfielders in the CM positions. One has 3 yellows in 8 and the other 2 in 10. What players do you have around them and are they supported?

I used to play it this way too...but I find out that is much better when you use only 1...I play with 3 midfields (playmaker, dynamic midfield and ball winning)...you will score much more goals and you can play more offensive football.

[Ricey]

I've taken all the comments on board and tried different things to get the BWM role right.

Unfortunately it's not working.

I have a new save and I'm playing as boss of Essex Senior Side Clapton (On a lower league downloaded database).

I'm 15 league games into the season and my 2 BWM have an awful discipline record.

Player one Kevin Aspinal has 10 yellows and 2 reds in 16 appearances. My coach's tell me he has a competetive streak and he has 15 aggression. (Missed 4 league match's so far with bans)

Player two Robin Nicholls has 4 yellows and 4 reds in 11 appearances. No problems reported by coaches and 11 aggression (Missed 6 league match's so far with bans)

I just don't think a BWM role is advisable. Maybe its different at higher levels but that's not been my experience.

I use 3 different tactics and formations and that makes no difference, the cards just pile up.

I also have 'Stay on Feet' checked in the tactics section. I've warned them, criticised their behaviour and fined them..... None of it is having an affect.

 

EDIT ... Also notice both players have average match ratings over 7.... It's kind of like they are being rewarded for poor discipline? I just dont get it.

[thomit]

I notice that one of those players has a low tackling attribute. If you ask a player to tackle hard - which you do when giving him the role as a BWM - you should make sure that the player is actually able to have his tackling technique (the tackling attribute) in order. Even for a lower league level, you should aim for better tackling attributes than that. That, coupled with a "competitive streak" (hidden dirtiness attribute), does probably not make for a good BWM, even at that level.

The other one has a better tackling technique, but low composure, concentration and decision-making, and a really low marking attribute ... again, not someone I would say was a candidate for a BWM role.

Now, I know it can be a struggle to find players with decent technical and mental attributes when playing at that level, but if you're going to play with what we can call specialist roles - like a BWM - that's what you need.

Oh and btw; "stay on feet" does not apply to roles that has hard tackling as a default role instruction, like a BWM has.

[Mojby]

I use Thiago Maia as a BWM and his stats are 12 Aggression, 13 Composure and 16 Tackling. He has collected 20 yellows in 37 games. Way too many for a BWM with those tackling stats. Any player I play in that position seems to get booked every game. Even my sub in that position gets booked. There is something that needs tweaking imo.

[Bigmonkey79]

Their default is to both get stuck in and to close down more... if they're your last line of defence before your cb they are by default going to put in a riskier challenge by their own standards?? (I assume!) I guss their tackles will carry less risk if youve an anchorman behind them to remove some desperation from the challenge. Does having TI pf stay on feet reduce some ferocity of their challenges?