I never get inside forward youth players

[Henry Shepherd]

Hi,

I have noticed that all my youth player wingers are always on the same side as their foot (example: Left winger = left foot and Right winger = right foot)

I was just wondering why this is? Am I having a bug? Is it just that inside forward youth players are rare? Or is it keeping to realism where usually you develop to be an inside forward when you get older? Like Bale used to be a left-sided player and Ronaldo used to be a right-sided player?

[WhiskeyDingo]

Same issue.

Also when the game starts in fm17 there are a lot of young players who have roles like Complete Forward, RPM, Regista but a few years later in there are ZERO new gens anywhere from any club that are even partially these roles....

[zlatanera]

I think it might be due to a hidden attribute in HoYD if you can develop them? After all, HoYD preferred formation decides what positions you're most likely to generate - so if he prefers a formation with RM/LM rather than RW/LW its automatically going to be less likely.

I do know on FM16 it took me something like 13 seasons with Lyon before I generated a regen IF - a good one at least, as I'd been picky about who I offered youth contracts to.

 

[Stevicus]

I usually train them to IF on the opposite side from day one. Also builds up their weaker foot and is very handy when you have your youth team replicating your senior tactics as they're usually forced to play the positions you're training. 

 

Gives them a good couple of years to adapt to the position before having a go in the seniors 

 

Doesn't always work out and sometimes they just never reach a good level though, plenty of times I've had to weed out all the wingers, and just concentrate on more central positions and buy my inside forwards in. 

[JordanMilly]

28 minutes ago, WhiskeyDingo said:

Same issue.

Also when the game starts in fm17 there are a lot of young players who have roles like Complete Forward, RPM, Regista but a few years later in there are ZERO new gens anywhere from any club that are even partially these roles....

That's probably because I believe a player has to be over 120 CA to start showing as any good at being a Complete Forward, so newgens would rarely ever show from the start as being CFs, but can develop into them.

[Snorks]

6 hours ago, Stevicus said:

I usually train them to IF on the opposite side from day one. Also builds up their weaker foot and is very handy when you have your youth team replicating your senior tactics as they're usually forced to play the positions you're training. 

 

Gives them a good couple of years to adapt to the position before having a go in the seniors 

 

Doesn't always work out and sometimes they just never reach a good level though, plenty of times I've had to weed out all the wingers, and just concentrate on more central positions and buy my inside forwards in. 

It is probably your HOYD that is developing these wingers when they are under 15. If his preferred formation is the same a s yours then you have to deelop them as best you can.

One tip though, if developing their weaker foot, get them to train it as a PPM, or through individual focus - it gives there CA a boost, would also help if training them as IFs as well, but the indivisual weaker foot raining makes a big difference

[Tiger666]

I've noticed quite a few things wrong with regen attributes.

[Baodan]

14 hours ago, Stevicus said:

Doesn't always work out and sometimes they just never reach a good level though, plenty of times I've had to weed out all the wingers, and just concentrate on more central positions and buy my inside forwards in.

Well it does eat up PA when a player learns a new position.

[enigmatic]

People have long complained about the lack of specialist inside forwards, but it's pretty common for newgen strikers to have a secondary position as an AM (opposite side from footedness) and so they can usually become very good natural inside forwards with minimal extra training.

IIRC it usually uses no CA up at all to train a wide player to play in the same strata on the opposite side so you can teach your wingers to play on the other side happily enough

[HUNT3R]

10 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

IIRC it usually uses no CA up at all to train a wide player to play in the same strata on the opposite side so you can teach your wingers to play on the other side happily enough

Yeah, it shouldn't as it's still the same position, just on the other side, so attributes should still "cost" the same.

[Snorks]

2 hours ago, Tiger666 said:

I've noticed quite a few things wrong with regen attributes.

How? Do you have any examples?

I'm not having a go, but  I always understood the newgens are guided randoms - or random within some parameters - therefore they can't be 'wrong' unless you have one misidentified as a Winger with Crossing at 2 or something.

Given that we haven;t had true regens for a number of years (regen being a retired IRL player reintroduced to the database as a 16 yr old with a different name when they retired from the game database) to 'randomly' generated Newgens, with a whole new set of attributes, I can;t see how one could be wrong?

[Henry Shepherd]

2 hours ago, Baodan said:

Well it does eat up PA when a player learns a new position.

Does it actually? I never knew that. Any proof?

[Tiger666]

18 minutes ago, Snorks said:

How? Do you have any examples?

I'm not having a go, but  I always understood the newgens are guided randoms - or random within some parameters - therefore they can't be 'wrong' unless you have one misidentified as a Winger with Crossing at 2 or something.

Given that we haven;t had true regens for a number of years (regen being a retired IRL player reintroduced to the database as a 16 yr old with a different name when they retired from the game database) to 'randomly' generated Newgens, with a whole new set of attributes, I can;t see how one could be wrong?

Well here's one example. Never got a reply from SI so idea if it's still the same in FM18 as I don't play it.

 

 

[Baodan]

6 minutes ago, Henry Shepherd said:

Does it actually? I never knew that. Any proof?

Herne79 confirmed it in this one, but its a bit of a long read.

 

[Snorks]

9 minutes ago, Henry Shepherd said:

Does it actually? I never knew that. Any proof?

Takes up points allocated for CA, so players final CA is affected. Heard that somewhere from one of those in the know at SI. 

[Snorks]

7 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Well here's one example. Never got a reply from SI so no idea if it's still the same in FM18 as I don't play it.

 

 

Sorry, can;t help you there, don;t know if it is an error or not. Don't think I've ever tried training a GK's passing attribute. Haven;t noticed anything like that in other attributes though.

Not on my game computer at the moment so can;t check to see if Passing is a needed attribute for GKs.

[KlaaZ]

You can train a goalkeeper's passing attribute seperately in FM18.

[RBKalle]

2 ore fa, Snorks ha scritto:

newgens are guided randoms - or random within some parameters - therefore they can't be 'wrong' unless you have one misidentified as a Winger with Crossing at 2 or something. 

 

Often those parameters/guidelines don't make much sense...

It's not uncommon to get a CF/AMx who's barely passable as target man, but completely useless as a wide forward due to lack of pace/dribbling. Likewise, too many DMs have shockingly low physical or defensive skills, begging the question "who the heck trained those kids"?

It's not as blatant as it used to be a few years back, when you got snail-paced fullbacks or DC/DM unable to mark a lamppost, but the attributes distribution for specific roles is still a tad iffy.

I suspect the core algoritm takes into account the Natural position, or one of the Natural positions for versatile players, with little consideration to the suitability of the other ones. So a Natural striker will be generated with one of the N "templates" (target man, poacher, false nine etc) and possibly a secondary position will be added, whether he fits the bill for that or not.

[Tiger666]

1 hour ago, KlaaZ said:

You can train a goalkeeper's passing attribute seperately in FM18.

You can in FM17 but it never improves. Anyway I'm derailing the thread so I'll leave it there.

[RodentofDoom]

3 hours ago, Henry Shepherd said:

Does it actually? I never knew that. Any proof?

learning to play with the other foot uses available ca/pa rating

not aware that playing positions & roles do

 

*edit*

if your not getting the roles/positions you want through your youth system

train them for it

 

if you get a decent right footed right winger, train him into the left wing IF role ..

it should be easily managed within the 2 years you have before matchs becomes the major driving force in experiential increases.

[Snorks]

6 hours ago, RBKalle said:

 

Often those parameters/guidelines don't make much sense...

It's not uncommon to get a CF/AMx who's barely passable as target man, but completely useless as a wide forward due to lack of pace/dribbling. Likewise, too many DMs have shockingly low physical or defensive skills, begging the question "who the heck trained those kids"?

 

It might be a CF has high attributes in other areas that push the AI AssMan into seeing him as a CF - but doesn't necessarily make him a suitable target man. Happens IRL too - Rooney couldn't head the ball for toffee for a long time, but he was a Complete Forward (or the RL equivalent). Spent hours training to be better with his head.

 

5 hours ago, RodentofDoom said:

learning to play with the other foot uses available ca/pa rating

I've seen elsewhere that it doesn't. Training the PPM to 'Avoid Using Weaker Foot' does, I think, but training to improve the weaker foot doesn't eat CA/PA points I believe - if anything, CA gets a slight boost.

One of the first things I do with any youth intake, train their weaker foot where possible.

[Snorks]

6 hours ago, KlaaZ said:

You can train a goalkeeper's passing attribute seperately in FM18.

That answers that then, but is the Passing attribute one that is required for any of the GK role/duties?

[RBKalle]

2 ore fa, Snorks ha scritto:

t might be a CF has high attributes in other areas that push the AI AssMan into seeing him as a CF - but doesn't necessarily make him a suitable target man. Happens IRL too - Rooney couldn't head the ball for toffee for a long time, but he was a Complete Forward (or the RL equivalent). Spent hours training to be better with his head.

I meant he was barely a passable TM as his BEST role...

There are some CF who are rather awful at every possible role, so you just have to use the tall/strong ones as TM and the pacey ones as Poachers, while they're not of much use in any other situation. Which makes it odd to see a Peter Crouch-esque striker receiving an AML Natural/Accomplished rating...

[Arnar]

2 hours ago, Snorks said:

It might be a CF has high attributes in other areas that push the AI AssMan into seeing him as a CF - but doesn't necessarily make him a suitable target man. Happens IRL too - Rooney couldn't head the ball for toffee for a long time, but he was a Complete Forward (or the RL equivalent). Spent hours training to be better with his head.

 

I've seen elsewhere that it doesn't. Training the PPM to 'Avoid Using Weaker Foot' does, I think, but training to improve the weaker foot doesn't eat CA/PA points I believe - if anything, CA gets a slight boost.

One of the first things I do with any youth intake, train their weaker foot where possible.

It eats quite a bit from CA to train weaker foot and ppms dont cost CA only Mental, physical and technical abilities cost CA and postions also cost a little CA.

[Snorks]

1 hour ago, Arnar said:

It eats quite a bit from CA to train weaker foot and ppms dont cost CA only Mental, physical and technical abilities cost CA and postions also cost a little CA.

Confusing - that contradicts what I heard from elsewhere - hopefully someone from SI will jump in and clear it up.

All I know is I have seen 16 yr olds CA improve by half a star in a couple of months training their weaker foot - but hard to tell if the improvement is a direct result. Could understand it eating PA but never seen that adjusted. 

[HUNT3R]

4 hours ago, Snorks said:

Confusing - that contradicts what I heard from elsewhere - hopefully someone from SI will jump in and clear it up.

All I know is I have seen 16 yr olds CA improve by half a star in a couple of months training their weaker foot - but hard to tell if the improvement is a direct result. Could understand it eating PA but never seen that adjusted. 

Footedness is really an attribute too. You're training his weaker foot which would basically improve every technical attribute for that foot.

[Deisler26]

Have you tried buying them dinner first?

[Arnar]

15 hours ago, Snorks said:

Confusing - that contradicts what I heard from elsewhere - hopefully someone from SI will jump in and clear it up.

All I know is I have seen 16 yr olds CA improve by half a star in a couple of months training their weaker foot - but hard to tell if the improvement is a direct result. Could understand it eating PA but never seen that adjusted. 

This is something i found out in the editor. when creating a player there is current ability - dependant attributes and i tells you what the game recommends the players Current abilities should be given his stats and the player i created had right foot at 8 and left at 20, when i put right foot to 1 the recommended CA whent from 137 to 124, if i increase it to 10 it goes up to 141 and at 20 it goes to 158, so its a diffrence of about 24 CA points from being one footed to being able to use both.

i hope this is understandable english is not my first language.

 

[Snorks]

2 hours ago, Arnar said:

This is something i found out in the editor. when creating a player there is current ability - dependant attributes and i tells you what the game recommends the players Current abilities should be given his stats and the player i created had right foot at 8 and left at 20, when i put right foot to 1 the recommended CA whent from 137 to 124, if i increase it to 10 it goes up to 141 and at 20 it goes to 158, so its a diffrence of about 24 CA points from being one footed to being able to use both.

i hope this is understandable english is not my first language.

 

Yep - that makes sense -   I think we may have been agreeing with each other without realising it. I hadn't gone into editor detail to test it, but unbnderstood t was one of the few things you can do to raise CA without suffering a drop in PA.