3-5-2 tactic, new game

[TomL85]

I have just started a new game as Southend in League 1, and have played a few games in the league. The main formation that I'm using is a 3-5-2, with a BBM and TM - P combination in attack. This choice of tactic was based on me having strong attacking FB's / WB's on both flanks, and I felt that I could do with an extra CB when playing against 2 opposition strikers. So far it's gone ok, defensively I'm conceding few chances although my CB's don't seem to be marking as tightly as I would like ,despite the Mark tightly TI. I also seem to be over reliant on the poacher (Cox) for goals. I have set the 'Work ball into box' TI, with the hope that this will give me time for my BBM and attacking WB's to get forward and stretch the opposition defence. I'm not particularly experienced in the game, although I have read a fair bit about tactics, so would appreciate any thoughts on my tactics in general. 

 

 

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, TomL85 said:

I have set the 'Work ball into box' TI, with the hope that this will give me time for my BBM and attacking WB's to get forward and stretch the opposition defence.

Work Ball Into Box while using a Target Man seems kinda counter-intuitive. Players have a tendency to hoof the ball to him regardless of your instructions. It's the kind of a role that you have to build your tactic around if you want to get the most out of it, so unless that's what you're going for, I'd suggest changing it. A player doesn't need to be a Target Man to win headers, if he's good aerially he will win them regardless of his role. You're also saying that you have strong attacking WBs, so I assume that you want them running forward and crossing often, which also goes against Work Ball Into Box. I'd suggest lowering your tempo instead, if you want to give your flanks and the BBM time to get involved.

I'd also switch the roles around a little bit. For example, your left flank seems kinda isolated, it all comes down to whether your LWB is good enough to do everything on his own, as he doesn't have much support - CM(D) will not run with him to give him support and the Poacher will be waiting for a through ball, instead of offering support in the build up. I would go for something like this:

LWB now has a BBM to support him (could also give him a Get Further Forward PI to encourage his runs more often). RWB is on a Support duty instead of Automatic, so that you know what it will do at all times. Automatic will change his duty based on your Team Mentality - if you change it to Defensive, his duty will change to Defend, which is what I guess you don't want, if you're building your tactic around "strong attacking WBs". DLF(S) will drop deeper and hold the ball up before making a through ball for your Poacher, attacking CM or a RWB running from deep - he won't act as a long-ball magnet though, as a Target Man would. DF would be a more conservative version of a holding-up striker, but then you sort of don't have anyone making Risky Passes (through balls), which could be a concern.

[Cleon]

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Work Ball Into Box while using a Target Man seems kinda counter-intuitive. Players have a tendency to hoof the ball to him regardless of your instructions

I often see this branded about on these forums, but its a myth. Yes players might look to use the TM more than usual but it's not hoof-ball and it's not counter-intuitive to work ball into the box either. If you use a TM and players are hoofing the ball to him, then you have a serious fundamental flaw in your system that isn't allowing any other kind of play at all. Which is kind of hard to believe. 

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It's the kind of a role that you have to build your tactic around if you want to get the most out of it, so unless that's what you're going for, I'd suggest changing it.

This goes for all roles though. No matter what you use, it has to fit everything else and compliment the other roles. I wouldn't classify the TM any different to this. You don't need to build a system around the TM. 

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 You're also saying that you have strong attacking WBs, so I assume that you want them running forward and crossing often, which also goes against Work Ball Into Box

No it doesn't. Work ball into the box tells players to shoot less often. You can still make use of crossing and play a crossing game. It just stops players from being wasteful and shooting from all kinds of ranges and angles.

If the OP is looking for help and ideas, I've wrote two very comprehensive topics on the 352 so you'll find lots of information in there and explanations about the strengths and weakness of the 352. Which should allow you to understand how the roles all link together. 

The first one can be found here;

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/3-5-2-chronicles

And the second here

 

 

[Zemahh]

55 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I often see this branded about on these forums, but its a myth. Yes players might look to use the TM more than usual but it's not hoof-ball and it's not counter-intuitive to work ball into the box either.

I would really like a definitive confirmation on that, because not only I've read a lot about TM being a ball magnet for long balls, I've also seen plenty of highlights in my own saves which would back that up. Maybe it's down to other factors, as you say, but if the role would actually attract long balls, it would make sense. Even just the name Target Man is kinda self explanatory.

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

No it doesn't. Work ball into the box tells players to shoot less often. You can still make use of crossing and play a crossing game. It just stops players from being wasteful and shooting from all kinds of ranges and angles.

If Work Ball Into Box only discourages players from shooting, why does it also disable the Early Crosses and Pump Ball Into Box TIs? The visualization of it is also pretty clear, sort of showing passes cutting inside, which would imply it goes against crossing.

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

I would really like a definitive confirmation on that, because not only I've read a lot about TM being a ball magnet for long balls, I've also seen plenty of highlights in my own saves which would back that up. Maybe it's down to other factors, as you say, but if the role would actually attract long balls, it would make sense. Even just the name Target Man is kinda self explanatory.

Cleon has given you confirmation and given his knowledge of the ME and football in general, you can really trust what he says. From my own experiences with a TM, balls are hoofed to a TM when players run out of options. So instead of a clearance that can go anywhere, it's now focused toward one specific player. As Cleon correctly points out though, if you're seeing a lot of these clearances, you have a tactical issue.

 

[Zemahh]

Interesting. Here's a thread I found, where another moderator is saying that Target Man does in fact attract long balls.

On 08/03/2017 at 19:21, Dr. Hook said:

Yes it does, and I think the best way to see this is watch your GK distribution. Even if you have him set to distribute to backs, short passing, less risky passes, he will still often lump it forward to the targetman. There are things you can do to limit the times this happens, but it will still happen at times no matter what you do.

 

[summatsupeer]

4 hours ago, TomL85 said:

So far it's gone ok, defensively I'm conceding few chances although my CB's don't seem to be marking as tightly as I would like ,despite the Mark tightly TI.

Remember whilst you've told them what to do, they execution depends on there attributes vs the opponents.  Do they have the technical+mental attributes to mark the opponent well?  Even if they know who and how to mark, do they have the physical attributes to keep close?

4 hours ago, TomL85 said:

I also seem to be over reliant on the poacher (Cox) for goals

I'd expect the TM to get quite a few goals from crosses and the CM-A and BBM-S to chip in with a few around the box/pull backs etc.  But yeah in that system i'd expect the Poacher to be the main scorer, that's what he's there for really, especially in a structured system which separates the duties more.

[herne79]

35 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Interesting. Here's a thread I found, where another moderator is saying that Target Man does in fact attract long balls.

 

Have a read of @HUNT3R's further reply directly below that post from Dr. Hook .

I think we've all become guilty of over using using the term "ball magnet".  It's got into our FM language when discussing the Target Man and Playmakers. 

"Ball magnet" implies players will always look to get the ball to that player no matter what.  The reality is it's more subtle than that and it's an over abbreviation.  Players will tend to seek out these players more often than perhaps other players but not at the expense of completely disregarding all of our other tactical settings or passing options.  So they may attract the ball more often (hence the term "ball magnet") but that doesn't mean their teammates will always just lump the ball to them.

This can also help explain why you ask about possible contradictions with other tactical settings such as work ball into box and the knock on of that to disabling early crosses and pump ball into box.  Work ball into box basically asks players to be more patient to wait for their opening before they shoot (ie., don't shoot so often as Cleon says).  This might encourage a Target Man to hold the ball up a bit more once the ball has been played to him to wait for support, rather than just shooting for example.  Playing early crosses or pumping the ball into the box is trying to get your players to create more early shooting chances, which doesn't really sit well when you also want your players to be more patient with their shooting.

I think the game doesn't always help itself in these descriptions.  All too often I see people saying their players shoot too often even when using work ball into box.  The game itself implies this instruction is some sort of magic button to press and suddenly your players will stop shooting, when the reality is it doesn't work like that and is reliant on other factors such as player positioning and directness of attack.  But I guess this forum would a lot quieter if it was all spoon fed to us in game though .

[summatsupeer]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I think we've all become guilty of over using using the term "ball magnet".  It's got into our FM language when discussing the Target Man and Playmakers. 

"Ball magnet" implies players will always look to get the ball to that player no matter what.  The reality is it's more subtle than that and it's an over abbreviation.  Players will tend to seek out these players more often than perhaps other players but not at the expense of completely disregarding all of our other tactical settings or passing options.  So they may attract the ball more often (hence the term "ball magnet") but that doesn't mean their teammates will always just lump the ball to them.

Yeah, i've been trying to avoid that phrase whilst keeping it simple.  I think the best simple explanation i've come up with was "the playmaker will be preferred over another player if providing a similar option".  I think I still fall into that trap when it comes to talking about TM though... 

[Zemahh]

34 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Work ball into box basically asks players to be more patient to wait for their opening before they shoot (ie., don't shoot so often as Cleon says).

Here's the in-game explanation:

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Work Ball Into Box instructs players to work hard for their opening, remaining patient and not forcing the issue but rather retaining the ball until the breakthrough occurs.

To me that in no way implies that it only discourages players from shooting. The way I understand it, is that players will be patiently waiting for their opening, prioritizing ball retention over the number of chances. I understand that means discouraging long shots, but I think it also means a more patient play in the build up. Including asking wide players to rather keep the ball, than going for a cross - that's how I interpret the Early Crosses and Pump Ball Into Box TIs being disabled.

I'm not saying that Work Ball Into Box will automatically reduce the number of crosses to zero, but I would definitely not pick that instructions straight from the start, if I wanted to build my tactic around my attacking WBs, who have a task of getting forward and crossing the ball. If I then saw that our crosses were too wasteful, I might pick it to help reduce them.

Also, I know that Guide to FM isn't an official source, but I believe it's quite reputable. Here's what they're saying about the Work Ball Into Box TI:

- Instructs the team to refrain from crosses to a greater extent
- Instructs the team to refrain from shots to a greater extent

34 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Have a read of @HUNT3R's further reply directly below that post from Dr. Hook .

He said that players see Target Man as an out when they have no other options, so does that then mean that they're at least partially hard coded to attract long balls or are they absolutely no different from playmakers in how they attract balls? Which of the moderators is right, HUNT3R or Dr. Hook? 

[herne79]

9 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Here's the in-game explanation:

 

39 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I think the game doesn't always help itself in these descriptions.

Way ahead of you .

10 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Which of the moderators is right, HUNT3R or Dr. Hook?

They're both saying the same thing.  @HUNT3R just clarifies things a little further by saying "when they have no other options".

[Cleon]

19 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Here's the in-game explanation:

To me that in no way implies that it only discourages players from shooting. The way I understand it, is that players will be patiently waiting for their opening, prioritizing ball retention over the number of chances. I understand that means discouraging long shots, but I think it also means a more patient play in the build up. Including asking wide players to rather keep the ball, than going for a cross - that's how I interpret the Early Crosses and Pump Ball Into Box TIs being disabled.

I'm not saying that Work Ball Into Box will automatically reduce the number of crosses to zero, but I would definitely not pick that instructions straight from the start, if I wanted to build my tactic around my attacking WBs, who have a task of getting forward and crossing the ball. If I then saw that our crosses were too wasteful, I might pick it to help reduce them.

Also, I know that Guide to FM isn't an official source, but I believe it's quite reputable. Here's what they're saying about the Work Ball Into Box TI:

- Instructs the team to refrain from crosses to a greater extent
- Instructs the team to refrain from shots to a greater extent

He said that players see Target Man as an out when they have no other options, so does that then mean that they're at least partially hard coded to attract long balls or are they absolutely no different from playmakers in how they attract balls? Which of the moderators is right, HUNT3R or Dr. Hook? 

They're coded to attract the ball. The type of ball they receive is not coded. It doesn't have to be a long ball. It can be short, it can be direct, they can be in the air, they can be on the ground and so on. This is where you are wrong/confusion lies as you're focusing on 'long balls' this part simply isn't true. If it happens to be long balls you see up into the TM regular, then this is a tactical issue.

[Zemahh]

38 minutes ago, herne79 said:

They're both saying the same thing.  @HUNT3R just clarifies things a little further by saying "when they have no other options".

Dr. Hook is saying that Target Man does indeed attract long balls. And this is how I thought it worked as well, not only because I've read about it, but because I saw it happen numerous times when I was using one myself. I tried instructing my team in every way I could to pass it from the back and keep the ball, but I kept seeing those mindless lumps to him, which I simply could not explain in any other way. And it sort of made sense when I then asked myself whether I really needed one, it would make sense if it had some kind of hard coded behaviour which would attract long balls. The in-game description also implies that it uses "aerial presence", so I thought it could be different from a normal playmaker-type-of-ball-attraction in that players will look for long balls. That's why I saw no logic in trying to build up slowly, but then also using a Target Man who I thought encourages players to lump the ball long to him.

33 minutes ago, Cleon said:

They're coded to attract the ball. The type of ball they receive is not coded.

I know you have very extensive knowledge of the game, so I won't question that. However, does that then also mean that you could make a tactic with a Target Man that is not good aerially? The in-game description emphasizes aerial presence, although I don't know why, if the type of the ball they attract isn't coded.

[Cleon]

12 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Dr. Hook is saying that Target Man does indeed attract long balls. And this is how I thought it worked as well, not only because I've read about it, but because I saw it happen numerous times when I was using one myself. I tried instructing my team in every way I could to pass it from the back and keep the ball, but I kept seeing those mindless lumps to him, which I simply could not explain in any other way. And it sort of made sense when I then asked myself whether I really needed one, it would make sense if it had some kind of hard coded behaviour which would attract long balls. The in-game description also implies that it uses "aerial presence", so I thought it could be different from a normal playmaker-type-of-ball-attraction in that players will look for long balls. That's why I saw no logic in trying to build up slowly, but then also using a Target Man who I thought encourages players to lump the ball long to him.

I know you have very extensive knowledge of the game, so I won't question that. However, does that then also mean that you could make a tactic with a Target Man that is not good aerially? The in-game description emphasizes aerial presence, although I don't know why, if the type of the ball they attract isn't coded.

The in game description mentions aerial presence because that's what a typical TM is. The descriptions give you a basic idea of how the role functions and typically TM are strong and decent in the air as a rule. However you can utilise whatever kind of TM you like, he doesn't have to be physical or good in the air. Just the same way that a playmaker doesn't have to be creative or the best passer and so on. You can utilise roles in many different ways.

[RodentofDoom]

I'd put my defend duty CM in the middle, it's closer to opposition AMC's that way.

A BPD in the central CD slot is also an option.

 

The in game descriptions can frequently be misleading.

The values a player has in an attribute has more influence on how he plays on the pitch than assigned role does, in essence each player will put his own stamp on any given role.

[HUNT3R]

I know it's a bit off-topic, but since we're talking about Target Man behaviour (or rather those around him) have a look at this:

This is a match with my typical system using a DLF. Look at the passes he received:

A long ball here and there, sometimes just a clearance, sometimes an early breakaway and a long ball into the open channel for him after he made a good run. Worth noting that I'm not specifically playing a short passing game or a direct game.

Compare it to when my target man plays. Same system otherwise, just the one role change:

Look at all those short passes to him. Most of those long passes, espcially those to the flanks, weren't hoofs. They were measured passes where he pulled wide into space. All of them played to feet as well. Think I saw 2 of the 39 that were head height.

As @Cleon said, different ways to use players.

[westy8chimp]

Yeah i did some analysis in my 442 season, my primary tm was a good all round striker... My backup was typical 6'4 good in air and strong. They played the same role in the same setup very differently. 

I also emphasised that the supply outweighed the TM magnetism. If i went out left i had a winger on attack with ppms to dribble... He would make priority to get to the byline. And often would cut back or cross to the TM.

On the right i used winger support... He was more inclined for the early cross... Which favoured my poacher more than the TM... Because he was further forward earlier in the transition to benefit from the early cross

[westy8chimp]

Here each of the three goals are scored by the target man. You can see several passes in the buildup...so the idea that having a tm just means hoof ball is not the case. If you go to the thread however, i do talk about the benefits of the TM attracting the early ball...but in most cases its a pass back to keeper who is under pressure so plays long to TM.