Tactic advice

[LeeWHU888]

Once the AI has sussed your tactic out, how do you lot go about countering back? My current Leeds save, in my 2nd season, started the season off in blistering form, 14 goals from 4 games, creating chance after chance, good ratio of shots to shots on target, always looking likely to score. After a few games the AI obviously changed the way it sets up against me and then the slump happened, wins started turning into score draws, then score draws turned into narrow defeats and now I'm at a loss as to what I should be changing.

I'd like to say that the problem is clear, the AI are setting up more defensively against me, not giving me any space to hurt them, but how do you create space and then attack it? I've set up with a 4-1-2-2-1, 

                       GK

FB (A) CB (D) CB (D) FB (D)

                     DM (D)

        AP (A)       BWM (S)

IF (S)                                    W (S)

                       CF (A)

When it was all going well I was playing on control and fluid, only instructions were to pass shorter, I set up PI'S for all to shoot less often. My thinking behind this is IF will drift inside, which creates space for the RB to overlap, as the RB will be pushing on, I wanted the LB to sit with the back line. I was surprised the DM worked well with a BWM as both naturally go looking for the ball but like I said, it all started out so well. The AP was on attack to supplement the attack and give us an extra option in the final 3rd. 

So what do you guys think? Is it just a case of tweaking a few roles and instructions or do I need to set up a completely different tactic? 

 

 

[westy8chimp]

14 minutes ago, LeeWHU888 said:

Once the AI has sussed your tactic out, how do you lot go about countering back?

Its a myth. The AI dont suss your tactic out. They play the managers preffered formation. What changes, over time, in line with your form and reputation is the opposition mentality. If you start with a weaker side you will find teams attack you and its very easy to play counter... If you are in a good league position by mid-late season they will play accordingly and you might notice more teams playing cautiously, and you should adapt to break down stubborn defence.

Ive done 14 seasons, documented at the top of this forum, where i barely made a change to tactics during the season. In fact probably 8 or so seasons where i didnt tweak at all for the whole season... And in the others just one or two changes throughout. The AI never sussed me out... If the tactic was successful for the first 10 games it was successful for the whole season. I only had one 'invincible' season... So sure every tactic had its cryptonite... But it was a case of certain formation or mentality that unpicked it... Not just AI sussing me out and the tactic 'dropping off' 

[Experienced Defender]

15 minutes ago, LeeWHU888 said:

I set up PI'S for all to shoot less often.

Now that the OPs play more defensively against you, maybe you could deselect Shoot less often, at least for the forwards and midfielders with good Long Shots and/or Finishing attributes. Because if you cannot regularly penetrate their defences, it might be worth trying more shots. The more often you shoot, the more likely one of those shots is to be converted.

20 minutes ago, LeeWHU888 said:

When it was all going well I was playing on control and fluid, only instructions were to pass shorter

Control is a good chose IMO. What I would try is to change shape into structured, passing into mixed and width to fairly wider. A more structured shape would create some more space for your players when attacking, while wider width should help stretch OP defences a bit more. Finally, mixed passing would give your players more passing options when building up attacks and attempting to create chances. However, these could require some adjustments regarding roles and duties.

[summatsupeer]

11 hours ago, LeeWHU888 said:

Once the AI has sussed your tactic out, how do you lot go about countering back? 

Westy is right, thats just an excuse.  AI opponents don't play identically against every team, it depends on there expectation.  Just like in RL where teams might try to shut up shop against Man City but against an opponent in a similar position in the league won't defend as much.  On a winning/unbeaten streak then opponents will see you as a harder opposition than if you've not won in a few games or lost your last game etc.

11 hours ago, LeeWHU888 said:

I'd like to say that the problem is clear, the AI are setting up more defensively against me, not giving me any space to hurt them, but how do you create space and then attack it? I've set up with a 4-1-2-2-1, 

                       GK

FB (A) CB (D) CB (D) FB (D)

                     DM (D)

        AP (A)       BWM (S)

IF (S)                                    W (S)

                       CF (A)

When it was all going well I was playing on control and fluid, only instructions were to pass shorter, I set up PI'S for all to shoot less often.

Thats pretty much a 451, you have a CF-A stuck up top on his own expected to do everything, is he able to do so?  He's a key piece, he needs to know when+where to roam, hold up the ball, dribble, play a risky pass and also be able to actually execute what he decides to do.  No one in midfield or in the wide forward spots are taking risks to get up with him but you have a AP-A likely launching passes to him.  Your on a risky mentality and fluid but that won't stop the CF-A getting isolated, if anything I think it will make it more likely to isolate him since the ball will be played forward more often by the support duties. 

11 hours ago, LeeWHU888 said:

My thinking behind this is IF will drift inside, which creates space for the RB to overlap, as the RB will be pushing on, I wanted the LB to sit with the back line.

Thats just one pattern, if the FB gets it I guess he's whipping a cross into the box.  Is your ST good at getting on the end of crosses?  Who else is in the box?

On the other flank your also crossing with the W-S, what targets does he have?

11 hours ago, LeeWHU888 said:

The AP was on attack to supplement the attack and give us an extra option in the final 3rd. 

I'd look at what options the AP-A has, he's looking to create something quickly due to his role, duty and team mentality but only the CF-A is looking to attack behind opponents.  If you aren't going to give him runners and attack space quickly whilst its there then maybe you need him to be more patient to wait for a better opportunity?

[LeeWHU888]

Appreciate all the comments. 

9 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Thats pretty much a 451, you have a CF-A stuck up top on his own expected to do everything, is he able to do so?  He's a key piece, he needs to know when+where to roam, hold up the ball, dribble, play a risky pass and also be able to actually execute what he decides to do.  No one in midfield or in the wide forward spots are taking risks to get up with him but you have a AP-A likely launching passes to him.  Your on a risky mentality and fluid but that won't stop the CF-A getting isolated, if anything I think it will make it more likely to isolate him since the ball will be played forward more often by the support duties. 

Thats just one pattern, if the FB gets it I guess he's whipping a cross into the box.  Is your ST good at getting on the end of crosses?  Who else is in the box?

On the other flank your also crossing with the W-S, what targets does he have?

I'd look at what options the AP-A has, he's looking to create something quickly due to his role, duty and team mentality but only the CF-A is looking to attack behind opponents.  If you aren't going to give him runners and attack space quickly whilst its there then maybe you need him to be more patient to wait for a better opportunity?

This is where I'm struggling, at the start of the season, it was all working, CF was everywhere, creating and finishing chances, he got 6 goals and 3 assists in 7 games, in the 13 since, he's got 3 goals and 1 assist. The IF created space for the FB to get wide, who crossed in and there was the CF, the AML and even the BWM in there was well, if a cross was headed clear, my DM was there to pick up the loose ball and then release it to my AP and we went again. But now we just seem to be playing in front of a wall that we can't break down, we then pass the ball around for 3 or 4 passes and then it ends in a wild shot from the edge of the box which goes miles wide. I've thought about going retain possession so when the ball does get to the edge of the box they might try to look for a pass but I fear that as we're playing in front on a solid team, retain possession is just going to see the problem compounded. 

Like I said, I'm just not sure how to go about changing things up without going for a complete tactic change. You said "If you aren't going to give him runners and attack space quickly whilst its there then maybe you need him to be more patient to wait for a better opportunity?" What roles/duties would give him runners? cos that is a problem, we're so static, I've tried passing into space and roam from positions instruction but when we get the ball, players don't move for the man on the ball. The worst thing is, I can see the space, yet they just stick to their position and the man on the ball can't do anything with it.

 

[summatsupeer]

12 hours ago, LeeWHU888 said:

 I've thought about going retain possession so when the ball does get to the edge of the box they might try to look for a pass but I fear that as we're playing in front on a solid team, retain possession is just going to see the problem compounded. 

This is kind of what I'm getting at with your attacking "plans".  You have ideas about the player movement like your FB but what about ball movement?  Are you doing it quick enough to attack whilst the opponents aren't deep and organized?  Are you stretching one flank and then building in a switch of play to use space on other flank?

Retain Possession is pretty much going to a possession style but that needs the right type of players (smart+technical).

Quote

Like I said, I'm just not sure how to go about changing things up without going for a complete tactic change. You said "If you aren't going to give him runners and attack space quickly whilst its there then maybe you need him to be more patient to wait for a better opportunity?" What roles/duties would give him runners? cos that is a problem, we're so static,I've tried passing into space and roam from positions instruction but when we get the ball, players don't move for the man on the ball. The worst thing is, I can see the space, yet they just stick to their position and the man on the ball can't do anything with it.

 

The player movement is more from the roles and duties, having a risky individual mentality to take risks and get forward.  Pass into space is a ball movement instruction not a player movement instruction.  Roam allows a greater range of player movement, it can create overloads but won't increase runs or make them take more risks with there positioning.

Who do you see have space and not attack it?  The simplest thing is to make them attack duty, telling them to get forward often (attacking runs) and take more risks.  But have a think about if he is pushing higher how that affects those around him.  If its your W-S will him collecting deep and transitioning the ball with his runs affect how you play? If its the IF does it affect your FB or CF?  Maybe a more aggressive CM inside of the Winger could help and the AP dribbles less and distributes more?

Lots of options than just what I've mentioned, what's right for your players depends on them and what you see happening on the field.