Suggestions for solid defence ?

[Jebedaias]

Hello,

TL;DR: How to defend ?

Simple as that, I can't seem to find an efficient long(er) term way to effectively stop leaking goals left and right. AI's killing me with crosses (admittedly for a while I was hitting back the same way). If not crosses, they are killing me with long-shots. If not that, it's killing me with clinical through balls and flawlessly placed 1-on-1 shots. I've progressed well up to my 6th season, had some good times on the way, brought some better players, but lately nothing seems to work anymore and no joy in creating a somewhat consistent defence to build on.

Longer Story:

So a few months ago I decided I've had enough, made a few rant posts around here and quit. My main frustration was the inability to get a consistent tactic / system going and the plethora of goals conceded. Regardless of anything I tried, I'd always end-up with one of the worst defences in the league (if not THE worst).

Recently I had a change of heart, re-installed the game and proceeded once again to try and take Monza from Serie C all the way up to Serie A (which was something I'd long wanted to do since IRL they never made it there).

I planned to do this over time, but it went quite alot faster than expected - or planned :

1. Season - Serie C - Expected to battle relegation : Ended-up winning the league on goal difference - Direct promotion to Serie B.

2. Season - Serie B - Predicted to finish last : Ended-up 2nd in the table - Direct promotion to Serie A (yay ?).

3. Season - Serie A - Predicted to finish last by far : Ended-up 16th / avoided the drop (quite easily - since for a while I was overperfoming even more and it was a big enough point margin to not really be worried of dropping, even though I finished the season badly, losing pretty much all 5 or 6 games in the last part of it).

4. Season - Serie A - Predicted to finish 19th out of 20 : Ended-up - wait for it... CHALLENGING FOR THE TITLE, finished 2nd.

5. Season - Serie A - Predicted to finish mid-table : Ended-up challenging for the title again and finished 2nd again; arguably my best season so far.

6. Season - Serie A - (this is where I'm at now) : Predicted to finish top-half ot the table - Struggled all season just above relegation zone / lower mid-table and ended-up 14th with THE worst defence record in the league.

 

Now as you can see, I've massively overperformed in terms of results - and goals scored - by using what some may say it's an exploit tactic. Despite my preference to keep things tight at the back, I reached the conclusion that, in the long run, Comprehensive Highlights and extensive micro-management produced little difference in terms of conceeded goals, so I simply decided to just keep playing these tactics on Key Highlights for as long as I get the results overall and not worry so much about defensive records:

1. 4-1-2-3 DM Narrow (Counter / Structured)

Full-backs set as Wing-Back (Support), 2 x CD (Defend), DM used as BWM (Defend), CM roles varied a bit depending on who I played, but mostly both set to BBM (Support) or Carrilero, STCL & STCR used as Defensive Forwards (Defend), STC as Advanced Forward.

Not many Player Instructions at all, other than Tackle Harder for CMs and Cross Aim - Far Post for WBs.

If I needed to score I'd change the Full-Backs role to Wing-Back (Attack) and the STCL and STCR to Advanced Forward, so I'd have 3 flat AFs in front - with the STCL and STCR often acting as sort of Wingers, picking up crosses or direct balls on the counter and squareing for the STC to tap it in, when not doing the job themselves.

Sometimes added Play Wider as Team Instruction. Very rarely (if ever) changed the Team Shape or Mentality.

Team Instructions: Prevent Short GK Distribution, Hit Early Crosses, Be More Disciplined, Play Wider (sometimes).

2. 4-1-2-3 DM Narrow WB (Counter / Structured)

Same as above, but moved the Full-Backs to WB positions and set them to attacking (so it's more like 2-3-2-3 DM WB). Used Play Wider more often. Started using this alot more since the second season on.

3. 4-1-4-1 DM (Counter / Structured)

Variation of the first tactic, dropped Full-Backs on Defend / Support, moved the STCL and STCR to ML and MR as attacking Wingers and set them to man-mark the oppositions's DL / DR (or WBL / WBR).

 

Last season (third one since gaining promotion to Serie A and challenging for the title) I would say was the best one. Had built a decent squad with good cohesion, dressing room atmosphere and all. Improved the defense quite a bit by employing more of the 4-1-4-1 DM in tandem with the 4-1-2-3 DM Narrow WB and it seemed that using ML / MR to man-mark the opposition's Full-Backs was a pretty good idea as I managed to end-up with (I think) the 4th best defensive record of the league.

I didn't care that I didn't win the title because it was never the objective and the way things were shaping up made it seem very possible that we'd get another real chance soon enough... Especially since now we'd also have a decent Transfer Budget too.

So I signed a wonderkid Forward that can just aswell (if not better) play as an AML and thought - hey, why not just push the ML / MR to AML / AMR ? That way I can use that new guy in his best role and so I ended up with 4-1-2-3 DM Wide (AML / AMR).

First game of the season we won 4-0 away at mid-table team Benevento, new guy got PoM, opposition had 0 (yes, zero) shots on goal. I thought this is it, this is the tactic, this is the season. Until the very next game we barely managed to salvage a late 1-1 draw against ever-relegation candidates Verona (by switching to good ol' 4-1-2-3 DM Narrow WB in the second half and scoring a lucky equalizer, as they had completely shut us off in the first half).

And from then on things went downhill. Fast. Even though morale, fitness, match sharpness, dressing room atmosphere, cohesion were all good, the team just seemed to stop knowing how to play. Barely any chances. Loss after loss. Went back to tried & tested tactics from last season(s). No joy. No chances, matches played on Key Highlights just showed opposition pouring in goals on our end and the few and far between chances that we had ended-up with our players basically passing the ball to the opposition keeper (seriously, you guys noticed that ?).

Morale dropped, you know the deal. By the time we were in a relegation spot I lost my patience and started to chop and change and even download some tactics (which sometimes would amazingly help us come back from 0-3 to 3-3 by simply loading it for the first time during a game, only for it to fail miserably the very next match). I lost any hopes for this season and just kept testing various tactics - my own, downloaded, mixture between. I understand that this many changes could not lead to any consistency, but nothing worked (not even the tried & tested tactics for which my team had full familiarity) and we ended-up battling relegation (but finishing 14th eventually) with the worst defensive record.

Since all in all, over time, I've massively overachieved and financially things are looking good, I'm not (as far as I know) on the verge of sacking, so it's back to the drawing board yet again to try and create some consistency for the season to come - even though after a 0-5 trashing I was close to calling it quits again.

Reading around I understand that by constantly increasing our club's reputation, teams would also be increasingly more cautious and leave less space for us to exploit, hence why the Attacking WBs + 3 AF trick probably stopped working. But now I'm at a loss for ideas - if THAT doesn't work (and it worked oh so well until this season), what will ? I tried dropping deeper to draw them out, I tried playing wider, I tried attacking through the middle with creative AMs, I tried exploiting the flanks, nothing. Barely any consistency and more often than not I get that dreaded pass to the opposition goalkeeper instead of a healthy shot (seriously, I watch games in 2D classic, it seems like my players are on a hunger strike). All the while letting in goal after goal.

So, what I'm looking for (if possible) is a way to effectively be solid at the back - I'd much prefer a 1-0 win over a 4-3 (or a 1-1 draw instead of 4-4). Even an honest 0-2 loss would be an improvement over a 0-3 in the 35th minute. Simply employing more defensive formations (like a 5-4-1 or 5-3-2) doesn't quite seem to cut it (or am I wrong ?). So can anyone give me some pointers on what could work in that sense ? What systems, in your experience, provided the most defensively sound experience ? I'm not looking to re-create a particular style of football that can be mirrored IRL - I simply would like some sort of consistency that won't always put my team on top of the conceded goals table.

[Jebedaias]

55 minutes ago, Analog said:

What's your team shape?  Closing down?  D-line?  Don't give them time to play would be my suggestion just from reading that much already.

For my tactics I always use(d) Counter / Structured (because as I understand the Structured shape allows an Attack role to be more attacking than Fluid) and default D-Line and Pressing / Closing Down - as I was also trying to keep Intensity in check.

The idea was / is to keep a center block of players well anchored in center-midfield (DM and 2 CMS) as a screen for the 2 CDs and use flying wingbacks to get forward and receive passes, then cross the ball to the AFs. Basically I'd prefer counter-attacks to tiki-taka.

When things started going wrong I did try to close down more as a Team Instruction (as well as individually to players up front), but I haven't really noticed a difference in results.

Also, for the last couple of seasons (of which the first went quite well) I left my Assistant Manager in charge of OIs (I didn't use any myself before that - but I'm considering the option to set them for specific roles by default).

Thanks for the reply !

[YasoKuul]

Counter with default D-Line and Closing Down could be too cautious and you'll concede goals if your players can't absorb pressure. I had more success with higher closing down TI or as PI for some players and TI Get Stuck In.

[swansongs]

BWM is the last role I'd want as my holding midfielder screening the back four. Far too aggressive to play on its own.

[Jebedaias]

1 hour ago, YasoKuul said:

Counter with default D-Line and Closing Down could be too cautious and you'll concede goals if your players can't absorb pressure.

Would you say Slightly Deeper makes more sense - especially against similar / lower rated teams that are looking themselves to hit on the counter ? I tried that thinking that maybe it would open them up a little and allow my strikers some space to receive quick balls / crosses.

1 hour ago, swansongs said:

BWM is the last role I'd want as my holding midfielder screening the back four. Far too aggressive to play on its own.

I use(d) a BWM exactly because of that - while leaving the Team Closing Down on Default, I still wanted someone to close down alot in front of the defence while the CDs and CMs would hold the formation a bit more steady. But I see your point.

[summatsupeer]

Through all of that post i've not seen you really mention your players.  How are they good at defending?  A team that sits deep in there own third needs a different balance of attributes to defend well compared to a team who is more disruptive and wants to defend in middle third and again different from a team who wants to press high in the opponents third.  Setting up tactically to do defend a certain way is one thing but having the players to execute it is another.  Consistency comes from putting your players in situations they are good at and minimizing the situations they are bad at, a player might not fit perfectly what you want him to do tactically which will affect your consistency until you get a player who does do what you need.  Its like when people automatically say you need to slow tempo and play more possession style to break defensive teams down, that might work if your players are good at possession style but if they aren't you'll probably still struggle because you aren't putting your players in the situations they are best at.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Jebedaias said:

I use(d) a BWM exactly because of that - while leaving the Team Closing Down on Default, I still wanted someone to close down alot in front of the defence

I'd rather use a BWM as one of CMs than as DM, even if he had great tackling, positioning, anticipation, acceleration and decisions (most important attributes for a BWM IMO). I might use him as a DM only if I played with 2 DMs, but otherwise - not 

[Rashidi]

On the face of it, each one of your systems is played the same way. You have the same mentality, ie your risk tolerances, the way they close down and the defensive line default settings will all be the same. The only differences will be a result of individual PIs, duties and any chances you make to the Team Instructions. You spoke about how you were "exploiting" to over perform, when in reality you were just taking advantage of teams being more attacking against a perceived weaker threat. So yours system which is relatively "safe" will struggle against teams that play identically to your system (ie, defensive flexible, and with more support roles).

Now your knowledge of football and the game is going to be tested. It's kid's play to beat teams as an underdog, when you have the right players. However when you start being a middling side where odds are you are somewhere in the middle of the pack, then you will find it very challenging. Teams at the top may take a more measured approach against you and cellar dwellers will treat you with a more defensive approach. Here you need to determine whats the best way for you to unlock sides. This demands that you understand roles and duties and how vital it is to control space. 

For example, taking your example which @swansongs rightfully pointed out, its dangerous. You are using a BWM who has a large area of influence. Does he have the perfect attributes to make the right decision ALL the time? If he is out of position during a transition, will your players step out and expose the backline? Does he have any traits that negatively impact your transitions?

When you start crossing into the "holding a 1 nil lead" and needing to 'make an epic comeback" trail, and doing it successfully then you will know you made the right decisions.

At the moment i don't see any of your systems likely to beat teams that sit back and camp. Those systems may work against sides that attack you with exposed wingbacks. And you aren't exploiting any flaw, you are just lucky. It makes sense that teams target flanks which are exposed all the time. Whenever LFC attacks with its wingbacks in full flight, teams counter into the spaces those wingbacks leave behind. When Guardiola's Manchester City needs to take a considered approach, Mendy is deployed as an IWB to create numerical superiority in midfield, but when they find they need to break down stubborn sides. Mendy moves into a more attacking role like a WB. 

You need to look at the roles and duties of your players, then you need to look at your system. Then you need to ask yourself things like : how can i keep the ball so effectively on one side of the pitch that i create a gap on the other side that my winger can exploit? Then you need to solve the issue of who will play the ball, how they will do it and what kind of ball will they play. Tag on to that the way your winger will drive the ball when he gets it. Are you after a winger who will drive to the flanks or one that is going to bring the ball inside and go for goal? I did an "Overloads" video a while back, and I also did a Manchester City system, along with an LFC system thats intentionally set up to score an obscene number of goals from the right flank. 

[Jebedaias]

14 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Through all of that post i've not seen you really mention your players.  How are they good at defending?

To be fair, they aren't the best, but not the worst either. Certainly wouldn't have expected them to have the worst defensive record in Serie A. That season in which I struggled I signed Walter Kannemann on a bargain and he was rated as our best defender (which I know isn't always true - but his stats and reputation probably justify that) to give you an example. Overall, the defence rating was actually a bit better than the previous season in which I overperformed.

But yeah, that aside, my Full-Backs aren't the best at Marking or Tackling and I was pushing for a young Italian player to get more game time (Gabriele Bellodi - he's good at Anticipation and Heading, but not quite Star Serie A material, at least not then / yet).

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

On the face of it, each one of your systems is played the same way.

Indeed, since the 2nd and 3rd are just variations of the first one - I wanted to be able to switch between them easily and have the set piece routines already in place. Initially for a good while I had used just the first tactic, left the other two slots empty. Then I wanted Wing-Backs and Play Wider, made the second... then wanted some more protection against opposition Full-Backs and made the third. But yeah, overall they are basically slight variations of the same system.

Cheers for the insight guys, let's see what the next season brings. So much game, so little time...

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, Jebedaias said:

To be fair, they aren't the best, but not the worst either. Certainly wouldn't have expected them to have the worst defensive record in Serie A. That season in which I struggled I signed Walter Kannemann on a bargain and he was rated as our best defender (which I know isn't always true - but his stats and reputation probably justify that) to give you an example. Overall, the defence rating was actually a bit better than the previous season in which I overperformed.

But yeah, that aside, my Full-Backs aren't the best at Marking or Tackling and I was pushing for a young Italian player to get more game time (Gabriele Bellodi - he's good at Anticipation and Heading, but not quite Star Serie A material, at least not then / yet).

Its not just Positioning + Marking + Tackling = good defending.  The attributes are good at defending different situations. 

1. Be in the right place: Are they in the right area and doing the right thing? (positioning / concentration / decisions / anticipation / marking)
2. Get to the player / ball:  Can they get to the area they are needed? (acceleration / agility / pace)
3. Win the ball: Once there can they deal with the issue? (strength / tackling / jumping / heading / bravery)

I may well of missed and attribute but thats as simple as I can put it into bullet points.   The thing i'm trying to point out is whist the game recommends certain attributes for a CB-D or CB-C etc, the balance of those key attributes (and maybe others not highlighted) should be different depending how you want to defend.  For example I would prioritize Positioning + Jumping over Tackling + Marking in a defensive system that sits deep, with FBs + DMs should do the tackling the CBs just need to deal with crosses. Thats not to say those 2 attributes that aren't prioritized can be rubbish though, its just in that system I expect them to need to do that less often so need them to do the most common actions better, where the priority attributes for a star player might be 17+ the others might be 14-17.  But in a defensive system where i'm defending higher and maybe don't have a DM and FBs might bomb forward more i'd prioritize Tackling and mobility attributes over jumping and positioning since its harder to be in the right place when there's more field to cover and more tackling+marking to be done.

[pheelf]

When playing 3 strikers you will find that for the most part, you'll be defending with only 7 players which automatically is going to put an extra burden on your midfielders and defenders.

I think what your trying to create is something which is fundamentally impossible. The better you are defensively the worse you are at attacking and vice versa. You can't create a tactic that will be great at both as both are diametrically opposed.  

Therefore your focus should be on getting the best players you can and embrace the attacking formation that you are using and forget about trying to be solid defensively. 

I think your success is the reason why you are struggling in your current season. You are no longer seen as the whipping boys of Serie A anymore and teams are playing more defensively against you which is blunting the effectiveness of your ultra-attacking formation.

Perhaps changing to a more neutral formation (2 strikers with an extra CM / 1 striker with 2 wide AMs) against defensive opponents might help. That way you are not only pulling defenders horizontally you also begin to pull them vertically.

[Jebedaias]

On 16/09/2018 at 14:42, pheelf said:

I think what your trying to create is something which is fundamentally impossible. The better you are defensively the worse you are at attacking and vice versa. You can't create a tactic that will be great at both as both are diametrically opposed.  

Therefore your focus should be on getting the best players you can and embrace the attacking formation that you are using and forget about trying to be solid defensively. 

True, while I conceded alot, I also scored plenty. But in the meantime I played through the latest season and won the Serie A (yay) with, I believe, the 2nd best Defensive record and 1st or 2nd in Attacking (goals scored). Media prediction was mid-table (8th I think).

Eventually yeah, while I would like less goals on my end, the objective is to do well overall / win games. So as far as I can outscore opponents, it should be good enough I guess. I'm definitely no Helenio Herrera and if I'd have a Tactical Knowledge attribute in-game like the rest of the staff it would probably not be worthwhile mentioning it, so I'll take it. :P

I'm at work, hence the lack of screens and possible inaccuaracies, but this is what I used (mirrored and slightly tweaked version of the tactic found here):

4-2-3-1 DM Wide (Control / Flexible)

- Play out of Defence + Push Higher Up + Close Down More + Prevent Short GK Distribution

GK (Defend) * Take Short Kicks + Distrib. to Full-Backs + Less Risky Passes

DL - Wing-Back (Attack)

CD - Ball Playing Defender (Defend)

CD - Ball Playing Defender (Defend)

DR - Full-Back (Support)

DMCL - Deep Lying Playmaker (Support) * Tackle Harder

DMCR - Volante (Attack) * Get Further Forward + Tackle Harder + Close Down More (I think - not sure if it's available for this role)

AML - Inside Forward (Support) *  Tackle Harder + Close Down More + Mark Opposition's DR / WBR

AMC - Attacking Midfielder (Attack) * Tackle Harder + Close Down More + More Risky Passes

AMR - Winger (Attack) * Tackle Harder + Close Down More + Mark Opposition's DL / WBL

STC - Complete Forward (Support) * Tackle Harder

Basically I instructed all my players up the pitch to tackle harder and press more (for any role that permitted that selection). Additionally, I set Opposition Instructions to Always Close Down and Tackle Hard any Opposition DL / DR or WBL / WBR or ML / MR or AML / AMR in an effort to reduce their crossing threat.

I still conceded a few goals which I could've done without (especially some during late-games which we were leading 2-0 or 3-0), but obviously all in all we've had a season leaps and bounds better than the previous one - albeit this time we didn't play in Europe, so fresher players - and for the first time I noticed that some of them were "Enjoying the team's style of play".

[westy8chimp]

Sorry rather than targeted advice, just a little observation or generic.

What are your expectations (do you set target of number of goals conceded, number of clean sheets)?

Generally I've found it easier, with bigger sides, to string together clean sheets and end the season with say 20-25 conceded over 38 games, by attacking more. Even with tactics where on the face of it they should be defensively frail. My Leverkusen series you'll see some of my best defensive records came with the most aggressive formations (442, 23041)

With lower teams playing counter systems my personal experience (where my expectation is to win lose or draw by the odd goal as in 1-0, 0-0, 0-1) I'm still winning 4-1, 3-2 or losing heavily more so than low scores.

If you think you can play on defensive mentality with a packed defence and get 20 clean sheets... it's a lot harder than you'd think. Even if you didn't care about winning... playing for 0-0 is harder, in my view, than playing to win.

---------

The form you are seeing with Monza, on paper, looks more synonymous with your REP than tactical. When you were promoted and expected to finish bottom, teams underestimate/play too attacking and can be easily punished. As your Rep (expected finish) increases, it becomes more challenging, actually harder than before.... as seen by your 14th place finish. That would echo my thoughts above, that really you can win being the smaller team easily enough, but still high scoring games... when you become the big fish... "best form of defence is attack" so you should change your playing style to suit your rep/expectation

----

E: you still have to consider;

As your reputation increases and you are seen as a title contender, the AI will more often play on cautious mentality. So you should balance your mentality/shape or formation to try and not give too many counter-attack opportunities to the AI teams. In the art of counter attack thread today, another forum member was on the opposite end of this issue... trying to counter a team that was set to structured so the defence didn't over commit. This is certainly one avenue to consider with your formation ... you can create a more attacking tactic through aggressive mentality, or top heavy formation, or more attack duties... but use structured team shape as a good way to keep the defence, or certain players, back, avoiding the AI automatic triggered counters.

[borivoje213]

Yo,

I had problems with defending crosses too.  When playing superior teams I set my full-backs to defend.  My overall defensive performances shot right up and it obviously as a domino effect to morale etc performances across the board were helped too.  

As for you having problems I saw that like me you tend to overachieve so it's probably that your expectations aren't kept in check and it's easy to become frustrated when certain performances aren't up to scratch with your own team's progression.

A curious thing happens when you overachieve.  I'm currently in the premier league and finished mid table with a team that are largely suited to championship football.  I constantly have to remind myself that despite the overall performance, my defenders are up against vastly superior attackers.

It's the same with my forwards, overall I'm doing something right because I'm getting more shots on goal and creating more clear cut chances.  It's infuriating to see the old FM cliche of results going against the stats and "unfortunate" defeats.  But then you remember that the players dispatching these chances are pretty inferior.

My suggestion would be that whilst there's always the possibility to become more efficient with tweaks, try not to lose sleep over it if you're still overachieving and getting the necessary performances.

[Jebedaias]

21 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

What are your expectations (do you set target of number of goals conceded, number of clean sheets)?

I would obviously just like to concede as few as possible. A few editions ago, I remember that on the Home / Season Overview screen there was a goals conceded / game stat - I would love to have that on 0.something. Basically less conceded than games played. No clear target, but for a 38 games Serie A season I suppose a number of conceded goals in the 20s would be very nice (and I believe the AI achieves this - Juventus, Atalanta in my save I think had that last season).

And sometimes those goals conceded are the difference between a Draw and a Loss - if I look at my record I have almost double the number of losses compared to draws (still about 54% win ratio - and overperforming overall). Should a few of those been prevented, that record would be a bit more balanced.

Also true that I've never ventured higher than Control mentality - and this just since last season, as previously I used Counter / Structured all the time.

14 hours ago, borivoje213 said:

It's infuriating to see the old FM cliche of results going against the stats and "unfortunate" defeats.

If only I managed to pull this off against the AI sometime.

I dunno, everybody wants to be Guardiola. I guess I want to be Tony Pulis ? :P

Anyway, on my save, I noticed that there are a few teams (in my case Atalanta for example; also Juventus this season had 0 conceded in the first 6 rounds) that consistently win matches by 1-0 and have a bunch of 0-0's in there too, obviously lots of clean sheets. I have taken a look at their formations, but I don't know what mentalities / roles they use and how the AI handles the matches to contain those scores, but hey, in the end I beat them on points, so I guess I should just see about my game and move on.