Football Manager 2019 Feature Blogs: Revamped Tactics Module

[OJ403]

On 27/09/2018 at 12:55, Neil Brock said:

 

Just wondering with the over/underlap options. Previously they were universal and applied to to both sides, ie you could only look for the over/underlap on the right and left simultaneously or not at all. However this graphic makes me question if you can combine them freely. For example, can you look for the right overlap, but left underlap, or vice-versa, or the over/underlap on one side and neither on the other?

[Jean0987654321]

I have to say, that's a poor tactic they picked out for Watford

[Jean0987654321]

7 hours ago, gunnersguy said:

One thing that SI have not mentioned with is pretty big when concerning tactics is that by the looks of it you can now play the Libero in CB strata according do this picture. 

YEEEESSSSS!!!

[phnompenhandy]

5 hours ago, Weston said:

I took painstaking care to keep players from dropping below 70% in a match. I was disappointed to find that this didn't seem to really help me any

Your observation is very valid; however, my observation is the opposite in that dropping below 70% condition doesn't have the effects people assume it does. If you don't yank off a player whose condition falls lower, it really makes no difference - they don't significantly slow down, get injured, mistime tackles or act adversely in any significant way. So long as you give them a rest from training, they'll be good to go the next match and can keep going without getting jaded all year. That should not happen except to the few who have 18+ natural fitness.

[gmilitao_scr]

SI, will be possible also change the formations with the ball and off the ball?

If yes, will be a fantastic addition!

[kpsia518]

9 hours ago, gunnersguy said:

One thing that SI have not mentioned with is pretty big when concerning tactics is that by the looks of it you can now play the Libero in CB strata according do this picture. 

 

but here is SW ?

SW remove from game ?

or SW & DCB = NCB ?

Edited September 29, 2018 by kpsia518

[Weston]

1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

Your observation is very valid; however, my observation is the opposite in that dropping below 70% condition doesn't have the effects people assume it does. If you don't yank off a player whose condition falls lower, it really makes no difference - they don't significantly slow down, get injured, mistime tackles or act adversely in any significant way. So long as you give them a rest from training, they'll be good to go the next match and can keep going without getting jaded all year. That should not happen except to the few who have 18+ natural fitness.

Agreed. Hopefully the added attention to the minutia of training (which, admittedly, is far from my forte) means an increased realism in fitness as a whole in all aspects, especially this one...

[kpsia518]

 

a pic from steam

[Spedding]

5 hours ago, gmilitao_scr said:

SI, will be possible also change the formations with the ball and off the ball?

If yes, will be a fantastic addition!

don't think so doesn't look like it

[DP]

6 hours ago, kpsia518 said:

 

but here is SW ?

SW remove from game ?

or SW & DCB = NCB ?

Was just saying in a thread last week the sweeper role should be removed as a position as it’s more a role. Positive change it this is the case. 

[Svenc]

21 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Totally agree which is why I think Manchester City  could be one benchmark, and I am sure others will be applying the litmus test to other systems.

The real benchmark is going to be the BUndesliga, also considering the freshly overhauled "pressing". If it isn't as ****ing ugly as in realz, with matches of the 2nd placed team vs the 18th placed routinely looking like a fiercely battled relegation play-off and no intention to play football whatsoever on display -- no can buy, sir.

Having some hopes though, in particular as with the inclusion of the VAR, SI may have had an extra eye on their impending first German release in over ten years -- considering the many headlines and stories it has already produced in Germany in particular. :P

Edited September 29, 2018 by Svenc

[Ampalaea4]

1) whats the difference between Fluid counter attack and Structured counter attack?

2) Also whats the difference between gegenpress and control possession? I guess both are aim to win back possession immediately with high pressing right?

 

[irish kopite]

23 minutes ago, Ampalaea4 said:

1) whats the difference between Fluid counter attack and Structured counter attack?

2) Also whats the difference between gegenpress and control possession? I guess both are aim to win back possession immediately with high pressing right?

 

1. Fluid counter attack= Arsenal Invincibles would be best example I can think of. A structured counter attacking team from that era would be Houlliers Liverpool.

2. Gegenpress looks to counter attack quickly when the ball is won. Control possession looks to hold onto the ball. May be best for dragging a very defensive team out of shape to create chances or holding onto a lead without sitting back to deep. I reckon that because both defensive lines would be high up the pitch they would need to counterpress.

Edited September 29, 2018 by irish kopite

[FMWolf]

8 hours ago, kpsia518 said:

 

a pic from steam

That really looks like a reinterpretation of Simeone's Atletico. And now, with the new tactical settings, it may be finally possible to do so

[RBKalle]

YES! YES! YES!

Finally the long-awaited, and long-overdue, "basic mentalities" (tiki-taka, wing play, route one) with what is hopefully a less abstract Mentality (I liked "Cautious" instead of whatever label it was used last year).
I'd wish for the while Fluidity thing to go away too, but if those changes to TI are as good as they look, I'm completely sold on FM already.

[pats]

Does the lower line of engagement mean that my strikers will get behind the ball to block the passing lanes? 

[Cam8]

20 hours ago, gunnersguy said:

One thing that SI have not mentioned with is pretty big when concerning tactics is that by the looks of it you can now play the Libero in CB strata according do this picture. 

But if you look at the screenshot SI provided they only showed 3 roles at CB? I really hope this is true but I don't think it is 

[scass]

I think these look great. Will team Dynamics still be as emphasised (tbh, over-emphasised in my opinion) as in the current iteration?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Cam8 said:

But if you look at the screenshot SI provided they only showed 3 roles at CB? I really hope this is true but I don't think it is 

I see four CB roles in that screenshot; BPD, Libero, CD & NNCD.

[howhigh1337]

Just curious, is refactoring of the legacy match engine code being made?

 

[Loversleaper]

My first thought was I hope we aren't forced into choosing a certain style of play from the get-go --- what about just starting out simple like 'normal' or 'mixed' and work from there?

Edited September 29, 2018 by Loversleaper

[Dagenham_Dave]

Well done SI

This looks like the single biggest change to the tactics module in years, and is direct response to what people have been asking for years..

And yet people are STILL not happy. 

"Hi, what do you want changed?! - "That" - "Great, we've been cautious and only released it when it's ready" - "Can you change something else now?!

 

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Loversleaper said:

My first thought was I hope we aren't forced into choosing a certain style of play from the get-go --- what about just starting out simple like 'normal' or 'mixed' and work from there?

The screenshots seem to be from the TC wizard, I'd imagine as is always the case with setup aids that it can be skipped so that you can select the settings as you wish.

[Cam8]

5 hours ago, Barside said:

I see four CB roles in that screenshot; BPD, Libero, CD & NNCD.

 

[RTHerringbone]

Genuinely surprised to still see so many people request different formations at different stages of transitions.

Do people think any formation plays rigidly throughout all phases of play? If you watch a match in any detail, you'll see that your Role / Duty allocation hugely dictates this.

[autohoratio]

49 minutes ago, Cam8 said:

 

Libero might only be for the defender in the middle of a back three, perhaps?

[kingking]

Line of Engagement is one of my favorite new additions. Something that has been missing.

Edited September 29, 2018 by kingking

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Cam8 said:

 

That is odd, the screenshot you copied in your original post shows 4 roles, maybe NNCD is the default with the other 3 roles being modify options or you could have spotted the first UI bug.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, autohoratio said:

Libero might only be for the defender in the middle of a back three, perhaps?

That would be disappointing if correct.

[Rashidi]

6 hours ago, kingking said:

Line of Engagement is one of my favorite new additions. Something that has been missing.

It has always been there. People just didn’t know how to do it themselves using closing down instructions and defensive lines creatively.

[masno]

28 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

It has always been there. People just didn’t know how to do it themselves using closing down instructions and defensive lines creatively.

It's a thing that the average player base can control now. And in any place inside football manager nowadays that you search, you not gonna find how you could change that, so a great feature so far.

[westy8chimp]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

It has always been there. People just didn’t know how to do it themselves using closing down instructions and defensive lines creatively.

It was too reliant on other tactical choices though. In my opinion, to have your strikers drop into own half and press the ball you had to play on a lower mentality i.e. Counter and fluid to bring an AF back in defensive phase. 

Now, hopefully we lose the ridiculous idea that players close down in isolation based on a radius of themselves. So i should be able to play an attacking mentality AF who will drop deeper when we defend if i set my line of engagement deeper. 

Lets say im playing 442 attack... I dont want my two strikers closing down their defence... I want them to engage on the half way line so i can have 6 player press and gain numerical advantage

[Svenc]

Strikers dropping back (positionally) has been one of the biggest FM tactical myths perpetuated in the tactics forums. At the very least, it's a misconception, or a case of semantic misunderstanding leading to understandable frustrations. What happens currently isn't so much that forwards actually drop back "positionally". They occasionally get a bit involved situationally, which naturally is connected a bit to instructions, and to an extent, likely attributes. Once that situation has passed, e.g. the ball has moved deep into the own half, they go forward to the half-way line again, where their FM default forward position is upon defending.

The difference in forward behavior ever since FM 2015 onwards and prior is sparkling. By about FM2013ish, the deeper of the two forwards would pretty much "properly" track back/drop deep upon defending by default, to an extent, with only the more advanced one staying upfront for clearances. When FM 2015 came around, giving advanced players a support duty for a brief time meant they did likewise. That's in either case something completely different to what has been going on from any release since, either way. I'd further argue it's also something completely different to what's going on with teams in football who get their forwards a bit more involved in denying space in the own half likewise. Such forwards don't do it situationally -- they always do it, as is their intended job. Furthermore, they don't move upfield to the half-way line once play has passed them likewise. In particular not in pairs, or even, trios (The Three Fishermen™ :P)

Edited September 30, 2018 by Svenc

[RBKalle]

4 ore fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

It has always been there. People just didn’t know how to do it themselves using closing down instructions and defensive lines creatively. 

Which kinda contradicts the logic of setting up a tactic, doesn't it?

It's like saying: fixing the car wasn't difficult, you just had to use papier-mâché, popsicle sticks and a pizza cutter...

[kingking]

Transition Phase when Countering and Pressing has always been a problem and a "challenge" for FM, this new feature that allows us to set up how to counter and press whilst in Transition , this should of been a feature a long long long time ago.

It has always been a challenge, a struggle to tweak the tactic to counter attack when possession has been won and Counter-Press when Possession has been lost in a way GeGenpressing way (high intensity and immediately). in a way that modern football plays.

I've always struggled to implement real life tactics that Klopp used in Liverpool and BVB and Pep used in Barca when Counter-attacking and Counter-Pressing during the transition phase in previous FM's

I hope, i pray in FM19 it can do GeGenpressing right (high intensity and immediately). where i can play a 4-3-3 with 2 AML,AMR whilst counter-pressing (high intensity and immediately) when possession has been lost, then when possession has been won counter-attacking (high intensity and immediately) when there is space

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by kingking

[rdbayly]

36 minutes ago, kingking said:

Countering and Pressing has always been a problem and a "challenge" for FM, this new feature that allows us to set up how to counter and press should of been done a long long long time ago

it has always been a challenge, a struggle to tweak the tactic to counter when possession has been won and Counter-Press when Possession has been lost in a way GeGenpressing way, in a way that modern football plays.

I've always struggled to implement real life tactics that Klopp used in Liverpool and BVB and Pep used in Barca when Countering/Pressing in previous FM's

I hope, i pray in FM18 it can do GeGenpressing right. where i can play a 4-3-3 with 2 AML,AMR whilst pressing quickly and hard when possession has been lost, then quickly countering when there is space

 

I have a feeling a giant swathe of the userbase will immediately pick Liverpool with a gengenpressing style; which will fail to live up to their expectations in how it plays out on the pitch. 

I sincerely hope the ME code will be able to cope with the raft of changes made to the TC.

The entire counter attack mechanic has needed an overhaul for a long time, especially as the counter mentality never actually meant counter - at least not in the way that has been in people’s heads.

At elite level, we need to see much more off the ball running when possession is won back, with far more incisive passes into space to find these players.

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by rdbayly

[kingking]

On 30/09/2018 at 14:06, rdbayly said:

I have a feeling a giant swathe of the userbase will immediately pick Liverpool with a gengenpressibg style, which will fail to live up to their expectations in how it plays out on the pitch. 

I sincerely hope the ME code will be able to cope with the raft of changes made to the TC.

The entire counter attack mechanic has needed an overhaul for a long time, especially as the counter mentality never actually meant counter, at least not in the way that has been on people’s heads.

At elite level, we need to see much more off the ball running when possession is won back, with far more incisive passes into space to find these players.

  

When the BETA Comes out hopefully people can report any issues or bugs with the tactics and ME around In-Transition Counter Pressing when the ball is lost and Counter Attacking when the ball is won.

This is the reason why i'm going to stop my FM18 Save and go straight into FM19, because i need that realism that depth and the ability to do gegenpressing in my Save Game

The very best teams need the ability to counter press and counter attack straight after losing or winning the ball straight away and with high intensity 

I'm using Man City and i'm desperate to use counter-pressing and attacking with high intensity and immediately 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jrGWC9_bxoE" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Edited October 7, 2018 by kingking

[rdbayly]

19 minutes ago, kingking said:

When the BETA Comes out hopefully people can report any issues or bugs with the tactics and ME around In-Transition Counter Pressing when the ball is lost and Counter Attacking when the ball is won.

This is the reason why i'm going to stop my FM18 Save and go straight into FM19, because i need that realism that depth and the ability to do gegenpressing in my Save Game

The very best teams need the ability to counter press and counter attack straight after losing or winning the ball straight away and with high intensity 

I'm using Man City and i'm desperate to use counter-pressing and attacking with high intensity and immediately 

I think your post illustrates the very high expectations users have of the tactical style changes and how they will play out in 3D. 

These expectations need to be  tempered in my view. 

[shirajzl]

Yup, I fully expect LOADS of rants "I want to play like Klopp, I picked the right tactical options and still can't win, the ME is broken".

[jyn1989]

I hope this is brought over to FMT19 on iPad. I need this. 

[kingking]

2 hours ago, shirajzl said:

Yup, I fully expect LOADS of rants "I want to play like Klopp, I picked the right tactical options and still can't win, the ME is broken".

lol as long as the players actually listen and follow the right instructions there shouldn't be any complaints.

2 hours ago, rdbayly said:

 I think your post illustrates the very high expectations users have of the tactical style changes and how they will play out in 3D. 

These expectations need to be  tempered in my view. 

If the ME cannot properly show counter-pressing and counter-attacking immediately with high intensity, replicating liverpools GeGenpressing style, then I will be the first one to make a complaint.

Red Box. The players look like they are Counter-Pressing, I assume they Counter-Press behind them as well, not just in front of them.

I don't think it should be much of a struggle for the ME to replicate GeGenPress or Tika Taka Pressing.

We just needed the options to be able to choose it which it seems we have it now. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by kingking

[RBKalle]

2 ore fa, rdbayly ha scritto:

I think your post illustrates the very high expectations users have of the tactical style changes and how they will play out in 3D. 

These expectations need to be  tempered in my view. 

The voice of reason...

IMO the main question is: how will the changes to the UI affect the ME?

What many seem to be expecting is: "now with the new instructions, my team will play exactly like Liverpool/Dortmund/Pep's Barça, Sacchi's Milan etc..." while I'm a bit wary and I'm afraid some of the changes to the menus are just a remapping of the same (confusing and conflicting) instructions we've had til FM18.
So like "Be more expressive" could have just been a nicer way to put "Creative Freedom, 4 clicks to the right" on the old sliders, I'm afraid some of the very appealing new menus are indeed a fancy coat of paint over the 2018 TC.

I hope I'm wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me. And surely plenty of impatient players will sign up in here only to rant about how broken gegenpressing is.

Me, as I've said, I'll be satisfied if finally the TC-ME relationship will be a bit more "what you see is what you get". So a narrow 4-1-2-1-2 with no CF or CM grazing on the left flank like a 1970s winger would be satisfactory enough.

[themadsheep2001]

The obvious answer is that the  Tactics creator UI and ME improvements are interlinked. You wouldn't make the changes otherwise because they simply wouldn't work. How well they work remains to be seen. 

But it's really not rocket science to say: the ME (and indeed AI) will have had changes to accommodate the tactical overhaul. Simply because they have to for it to work. 

[rdbayly]

13 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

IMO the main question is: how will the changes to the UI affect the ME?

This.

I applaud the intention behind the changes to the TC; however, SI have potentially made a rod for their own back if the ME cannot reproduce the style of play pictured in the minds of those who are hell bent on 'replicating Klopp / Pep'.

I also find it flat out weird that many are basing this 'replicatability' as the single yardstick to judge the success of this year's release.

Edited September 30, 2018 by rdbayly

[craiigman]

Quite like the look of things. From the initial screen shots I feel like I can picture what settings I want to use and actually setup what I have in my head, rather than relying on PI's. Still interested to see what PI's are there as well though.

It looks like I can set one wing to look for underlap and one for overlap, that would be great addition if that is the case.

For me it's enough to pick it up this year I think, what to get it and play around with it. Hoping they've made some changes to the BPD though.

[westy8chimp]

18 minutes ago, rdbayly said:

This.

I applaud the intention behind the changes to the TC; however, SI have potentially made a rod for their own back if the ME cannot reproduce the style of play pictured in the minds of those who are hell bent on 'replicating Klopp / Pep'.

I also find it flat out weird that many are basing this 'replicatability' as the single yardstick to judge the success of this year's release.

Yes bit sick of the term gegenpressing before this thread was opened... 

I'll use it at some point but im much more of a crossing and heading enthusiast so thatl be my first point of call. Also regroup and hold shape sound just as interesting to me as all this pressing business. Should be able to be a lower team with a more progressive formation and still be really solid. 

[kingking]

41 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The obvious answer is that the  Tactics creator UI and ME improvements are interlinked. You wouldn't make the changes otherwise because they simply wouldn't work. How well they work remains to be seen. 

 But it's really not rocket science to say: the ME (and indeed AI) will have had changes to accommodate the tactical overhaul. Simply because they have to for it to work. 

Hopefully the ME successfully satisfy's the user and shows the team actually playing how the user wants them to play for example if they want a tika-taka way of play

Because this huge change can means that bugs are likely to happen however I hope the bugs are not to big where players are complaining that tika-taka or Gegen is not working as they should.

With these changes i expect my team to actually play like liverpool using a 4-3-3 (2 AM-RL)

With Possession

• High Tempo
• Play through the wings
• dribble less
• long balls

In Transition.

• Counter and Press
• Press from the middle and forward area
• High intensity Pressing
• Quickly Counter from the wing when the ball is won

Out of Possession

• Narrow Defense, 
• Defensive Line is standard with an offside trap 
• Foward Player being high up pressing the defense of the opposition  

Edited September 30, 2018 by kingking

[RBKalle]

39 minuti fa, rdbayly ha scritto:

I also find it flat out weird that many are basing this 'replicatability' as the single yardstick to judge the success of this year's release.

I don't see what's weird with people wanting their FM team to "play like _______".

As said, I'm more of an old-school manager so I don't really have a copycat-style in mind, but I DO want my team to follow my instructions, which are picked with a specific vision in mind.

That point has been FM's weakest link for years in terms of matchday experience. Nothing worse than sitting and watching your side play a speculative game of short passing despite your instructions pointing in a more Direct, Route One direction.
I'm not concerned about replicability, but more about Instruction A means A in the ME, and not A1, A-with-modifiers, or A-only-if-you-also-picked-5-extra-options (that may or may not make sense in context).

I want to play awful hoof and run 80s Third Division football? I want to be able to do so without needing to read one of the essays about wide play. It's a basic tactic, not rocket science.

[kingking]

3 hours ago, rdbayly said:

I think your post illustrates the very high expectations users have of the tactical style changes and how they will play out in 3D. 

These expectations need to be  tempered in my view. 

 

6 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

I don't see what's weird with people wanting their FM team to "play like _______".

As said, I'm more of an old-school manager so I don't really have a copycat-style in mind, but I DO want my team to follow my instructions, which are picked with a specific vision in mind.

That point has been FM's weakest link for years in terms of matchday experience. Nothing worse than sitting and watching your side play a speculative game of short passing despite your instructions pointing in a more Direct, Route One direction.
I'm not concerned about replicability, but more about Instruction A means A in the ME, and not A1, A-with-modifiers, or A-only-if-you-also-picked-5-extra-options (that may or may not make sense in context).

I want to play awful hoof and run 80s Third Division football? I want to be able to do so without needing to read one of the essays about wide play. It's a basic tactic, not rocket science.

Yeah there is nothing wrong with wanting a sensible and easier way to play Hoofball,  Tika Taka or Gengen in FM, the game is a simulation of real life

It has always been too hard or a struggle for users to play like Barca or Klopp because FM in the past has made it hard through the tactic UI and ME.

This year with the new Tactic Style hopefully we can allow players to have more freedom to replicate there favourite football

[Alekos]

Please can someone from SI inform us if we will be able to switch tactics in attack-transition and defensive phase?For example 4-3-3 while attacking can be converted to 4-2-3-1 while defending?