Is it possible (or advisable) for a lower league side to play possession football?

[bennyj22]

I am worried that playing a short passing, fluid, possession football (think Sarri) requires players of high technical skill and that my lower league side (English league 2) won't pull it off.

Do any of you guys have any experiences with playing this kind of football with a lower league side? What were you successes and failures?

[Experienced Defender]

It's relative to the league your team is in. If you are among better teams in your league in terms of passing, first touch, off the ball, decisions, technique, composure, anticipation... then it should be possible for you to play such a style, but only in the league matches, especially when you are a clear favorite. However, it is not advisable when you play against stronger sides, for example in cup competitions (where you may face a top team). 

[SD]

12 minutes ago, bennyj22 said:

I am worried that playing a short passing, fluid, possession football (think Sarri) requires players of high technical skill and that my lower league side (English league 2) won't pull it off.

Do any of you guys have any experiences with playing this kind of football with a lower league side? What were you successes and failures?

I haven't tried it myself but it should be possible. However, unless this is a challenge you've set yourself, a direct passing tactic would be more effective and you'd have an easier time finding the players for it.

[Scoham]

Yes it’s possible. I took Merthyr Town from the 7th tier to the Prem on FM16. From the 6th tier onwards I played pretty much the same system.

4-4–1-1

Very fluid

Shorter passing

Very narrow (with PIs to make WMs even narrower, I think)

Stay on feet

It clicked once I got that combination of instructions right. It wasn’t the quickest way but I always won promotion once the team was strong enough.

In League 1 though I pushed on once I had the right striker. He wasn’t the best technical player but had pace, strength, was decent in the air and could finish.

Here’s a few of the goals the team scored while in non-league:

 

[Jommelb]

Check this thread. It is possible

[westy8chimp]

On 10/10/2018 at 19:11, Experienced Defender said:

It's relative to the league your team is in. If you are among better teams in your league in terms of passing, first touch, off the ball, decisions, technique, composure, anticipation... then it should be possible for you to play such a style, but only in the league matches, especially when you are a clear favorite. However, it is not advisable when you play against stronger sides, for example in cup competitions (where you may face a top team). 

I dont subscribe to this line of thought... I think of the attribute value i. E. 5 for passing as a barometer for likelihood of success. 

I know a theoretical player with 20 for every attribute  wouldnt succeed with every action... But he would be more likely to succeed than a player with 5. 

5/20 is a poor score in any walk of life... It shouldnt matter that your opponent has 4/20... You arent standing next to each other seeing who can play the better pass. 

You wouldnt take that player sith 5/20 passing to barcelona... Because you would think "this guy cant pass"... So why would you think different when you see him at Tamworth? He still cant pass... 

In LLM you should be punished for asking poor players to play difficult football and have to build up from a physical squad playing simple football... To a technical side capable of more. 

..... 

That said i dont think the ME in its current state is sophisticated enough to make those distinctions... So in practice you can play any type of football you like. 

 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

I dont subscribe to this line of thought... I think of the attribute value i. E. 5 for passing as a barometer for likelihood of success. 

I know a theoretical player with 20 for every attribute  wouldnt succeed with every action... But he would be more likely to succeed than a player with 5. 

5/20 is a poor score in any walk of life... It shouldnt matter that your opponent has 4/20... You arent standing next to each other seeing who can play the better pass. 

You wouldnt take that player sith 5/20 passing to barcelona... Because you would think "this guy cant pass"... So why would you think different when you see him at Tamworth? He still cant pass... 

In LLM you should be punished for asking poor players to play difficult football and have to build up from a physical squad playing simple football... To a technical side capable of more. 

..... 

That said i dont think the ME in its current state is sophisticated enough to make those distinctions... So in practice you can play any type of football you like

In fact we agree. Speaking in FM terms, I think you cannot (or at least should not try to) play Sarriball with a LLM team, but you can play some sort of slow and boring possession football in the sense that you are looking to keep the ball as much as possible and occasionally try to make some more risky (killer) pass for your forwards if you have a player (playmaker) who has slightly better passing than others by LLM standards (e.g. if 5 is average in the league, he may have 8+). So I'm just speaking of possibility, not recommending anything. Personally, with a LLM side I'd be more inclined to play more direct/long simple passes to faster forward players rather than trying to patiently build from the back (except when I want to preserve a narrow lead by keeping possession).

[Scoham]

5 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

I dont subscribe to this line of thought... I think of the attribute value i. E. 5 for passing as a barometer for likelihood of success. 

I know a theoretical player with 20 for every attribute  wouldnt succeed with every action... But he would be more likely to succeed than a player with 5. 

5/20 is a poor score in any walk of life... It shouldnt matter that your opponent has 4/20... You arent standing next to each other seeing who can play the better pass. 

You wouldnt take that player sith 5/20 passing to barcelona... Because you would think "this guy cant pass"... So why would you think different when you see him at Tamworth? He still cant pass... 

In LLM you should be punished for asking poor players to play difficult football and have to build up from a physical squad playing simple football... To a technical side capable of more. 

..... 

That said i dont think the ME in its current state is sophisticated enough to make those distinctions... So in practice you can play any type of football you like. 

 

It’s true, it is relative to the league you’re in. However 5 probably wouldn’t be a good rating in any league that comes with the game, so you’re right that a 5 is poor. The lower you go the less rounded or complete players are, but they still have strengths.

A National League North/South playmaker might have say 9-12 for the relevant attributes but have a bigger and more weaknesses.

There’s definitely room for the match engine to improve but put together a very physical LLM side lacking any technical and mental attributes (those relevant to a passing game) and I doubt it would be successful.

[Jommelb]

I don't think it's fair to compare the number for passing they have. In LLM players are worse in passing, but the opponnents are worse in say: positioning, marking, concentration, tackling. Which means that your 'passers' have more time and the other players have a bigger chance of being available for the pass.

[jc577]

On 13/10/2018 at 08:02, westy8chimp said:

I dont subscribe to this line of thought... I think of the attribute value i. E. 5 for passing as a barometer for likelihood of success. 

I know a theoretical player with 20 for every attribute  wouldnt succeed with every action... But he would be more likely to succeed than a player with 5. 

5/20 is a poor score in any walk of life... It shouldnt matter that your opponent has 4/20... You arent standing next to each other seeing who can play the better pass. 

You wouldnt take that player sith 5/20 passing to barcelona... Because you would think "this guy cant pass"... So why would you think different when you see him at Tamworth? He still cant pass... 

In LLM you should be punished for asking poor players to play difficult football and have to build up from a physical squad playing simple football... To a technical side capable of more. 

..... 

That said i dont think the ME in its current state is sophisticated enough to make those distinctions... So in practice you can play any type of football you like. 

 

True but then again passing a ball 5 yards is much easier than passing it 20... quite a rudimentary point to make but what i’m getting at is that this approach (short/shorter passing) could get the team playing more than the sum of its parts as players are in close proximity, always lending a hand if a teammate comes under pressure. I think what it comes down to (as it so often does) is balance, teams with less capable players technically can try and play a possession based style but slightly adapted for their level, so they may not try to play out from the back as much as say a Chelsea or Man City, but if the conditions are right and players have taken intelligent positions during build-up then they can do it successfully. As you’ve said, the likelihood of success is less of a guarantee, but even a broken clock is right twice a day 

[hursty2]

I think it's a common misconception that you can't play short quick play and pressing with a lower league team. It's done all across the world at lower levels with success, relative to the league of course. At first it's a massive learning curve for players that have never done it before but with the right training and direction it's really not that hard to implement as long as you have a group of players that are willing to listen to you.

[westy8chimp]

Yeah the thing is, i wasnt challenging the style of football or the ability to play a certain way Irl or in fm... Just the school of thought that attributes are relative to the opposition. Yes with physical because you are in direct combat with opponent...be it a foot race or challenging for a header or shielding the ball... But when its technical; passing, shooting, free kicks... That comes down to how good the player is (can he pass well, is he a good finisher, can he take a set piece) and IMO isnt relative to the league as i dont believe the opponent has much impact on those actions. As i said... A guy with 5/20 for passing is not a good passer... Whether or not he plays vs xavi or fellaini or the pub landlord... His passing ability is poor... So i would expect more missed passes by that player (ergo wouldnt want to build out from the back or put too much emphasis on him recycling possession) 

However... These points are good counter argument

8 hours ago, jc577 said:

True but then again passing a ball 5 yards is much easier than passing it 20... quite a rudimentary point to make but what i’m getting at is that this approach (short/shorter passing) could get the team playing more than the sum of its parts 

 

On 13/10/2018 at 19:25, Jommelb said:

I don't think it's fair to compare the number for passing they have. In LLM players are worse in passing, but the opponnents are worse in say: positioning, marking, concentration, tackling. Which means that your 'passers' have more time and the other players have a bigger chance of being available for the pass.

Im not saying im right... Its just my thought process and these are sensible opinions from the other side. 

[phnompenhandy]

I've used possessive tactics with lower league sides. It doesn't come off as Sarriball but it can get results - you just need to remember that the opposition's players are as useless as yours, as others have said.  If your players have relatively better attributes in the important areas you'll be okay. Mostly, however, my starting squad is inferior to my opponents so I create a defensive hoof-ball tactic, but it all depends on the hand I'm dealt.

[AFCBeer]

The thing with attributes is that some apply to the general population but some only apply to football itself. 

Lets consider passing and off the ball. These are specific football attributes. Is a footballer with 20 twice as good at passing and movement than someone with 10? Probably yes. 

But what about pace and strength? Clearly not! A pace 20 striker obviously can’t run 100 metres twice as quick as a pace 10! Even with concentration, a footballer with an attribute of 1 is going to have a basic idea of what he’s doing. To genuinely be 20 times worse, he’d have to literally fall asleep during games!

So in LLM, a playmaker with passing & vision 10 and a striker with OTB 10 will struggle to exploit a defender who is 5 in his attributes. At World Class level, elite players will be able to use their superior football skills against even the best of athletes. 

I do think FM gets this slightly wrong. I’ve managed non league sides to narrow defeats at big 6 PL clubs with 60% possession and 700 passes. I highly doubt any NL side gets 700 passes in their own league so certainly it wouldn’t happen at Old Trafford!