Do playmakers slow down play? How should I use them exactly?

[bennyj22]

This is something I've always taken for granted, but never really examined why I would need/use one.

So I'm thinking about the DLP or AP in a 5-3-2 WB formation.

If I want to be playing fast attacking football, should I go without playmakers?

Conversely, if I want to play possession-based football (passing it around, waiting for the gaps) is that when playmakers are recommended?

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, bennyj22 said:

I'm thinking about the DLP or AP in a 5-3-2 WB formation.

If I want to be playing fast attacking football, should I go without playmakers

Fast attacking football is quite a subjective term... But i quite like a playmaker in a 532...i have my wing backs on attack looking to get high up the field to cross, so by using a central playmaker in the build up it gives them time to make those runs. You need a playmaker then capable of spraying the pass out wide. 

I dont think playmakers are inherently recommended to use or not use in a possession system. 

You can use playmakers for a number of reasons; to create a passing pattern (as they will look to be available and theor teammates will search them out more often) ... Or perhaps you have one standout technical player who you want to see more of the ball.

A playmaker can be a heartbeat type like dlp, or you can make them the main risk taker like a trequarista.

Playmaker doesnt = high pass accuracy. Some of the playmaker roles come with more risky passes or more direct passes... And the typical playmaker comes with ppms to try more killer balls or long range passes or switch flank. 

Finally, playmakers dont slow down play. Your combination of roles and instructions will dictate your style. 

I. E in a 4123 if the 1 is a playmaker he will attract the ball from the cbs more so than a dm... But if you have hin set to more direct passing and he has ppms he could be used to launch an attack to the wingers or striker. If you use a dm but have ti for short passing slow tempo or retain possession it would overall be a slower approach pattern. 

[bennyj22]

I was hoping you would reply. Have been reading a lot of your posts recently and they are always top notch! 

I know fast attacking football is a subjective term... And if I'm honest it changes daily if want to play a possession-based Sarri-ball or direct, strong (physically), fast, crossing football. I think I am slightly more inclined to the latter.

What I do know is that I love 3 at the back. I don't know why - it could be an aesthetic thing. Who knows why I like what I like!

This leads to me to assume I need a DLP as I tend to play lower league football, and leaving three at the back unsupervised could be disastrous.

However, I also love to use ball-playing defenders, and I'm worried that this cancels out the need for a DLP as the BPDs will be spraying balls over and wide of the DLP.

:/

I also tend to shy away from the WB on attack duty because I'm worried I'll need them back to help out occasionally with defense. Yet at the same time, I feel like their role calls for them to be attacking because they need to get a long way up the pitch to cause a real threat.

*sigh* Too many contradictions in my approach?

[westy8chimp]

I wouldnt say its too contradictory... You have to judge who is more likely to succeed in getting the ball to the wbs in the right position... Dlp or bpd or a standard role.

Wb on attack will still defend, just from a higher starting position (which can be beneficial depending on your opponent) 

[herne79]

A Playmaker role is nothing more than a passing focus for their team mates.  This doesn't mean they will always look to pass to a playmaker, it's just a tendency.  That's all it is.

What the "Playmaker" then does with the ball once he has it is defined by his Attributes, Traits and Player Instructions.  So you can have a "playmaker" in your team without defining him as such (by using a "playmaker" role), because he'll still have his Attributes and Traits whilst you can give him PIs to suit.  He just won't be the aforementioned passing focus.

Using a playmaker role doesn't suit any one style more or less than another*, it's simply down to how you see your system working and what you want from your player.

(* Slight caveat - a pure counter attacking system may not benefit from a playmaker role as play might get channelled through the playmaker rather than players better positioned to take advantage of a counter attack).

[summatsupeer]

A creator doesn't have to be a playmaker.  If one player stands head and shoulders above the others then it might be wise to get him the ball more.

Just look at the movement of the roles+duties when building combinations.  Playmakers will be behind the ball more often than other roles in the same position with the same duty.  Even a AP-A is more like a support duty since they want to collect the ball and create for others rather than making attacking runs.

With regards to DLP and BPDs my personal preference is to prioritise good defensive attributes, especially as outside CB need good mobility as more likely to have to deal with a winger.  Even if he is a BPD if he's not as good as the DLP is it better to play him in a simple CB role and feed the DLP more often?  If playing a quick style the earlier more direct pass could work better than the extra time to pass to the DLP... If a slower possession style I'd question BPD use rather than them aiming for feet of support midfielder to transition the ball consistently.

[SD]

It depends on what kind of playmaker. For a direct tactic that's looking to get the ball forward asap, a DLP would either slow down play too much or end up being bypassed by the ball entirely. But a more advanced playmaker, such as an AP(a) or a Treq, should work just fine.

This is playmaker usage for tactical reasons, if you have a skilled player that stands out above the rest, funneling play through him regardless of where he is on the pitch may still end up outweighing any tactical drawbacks.

[westy8chimp]

22 minutes ago, SD said:

For a direct tactic that's looking to get the ball forward asap, a DLP would either slow down play too much or end up being bypassed by the ball entirely.

The only way this statement is true is if you stick rigidly to the first sentence and assume the success of the direct ball is of no matter. 

In reality the primary aim is never just to get the ball forward as quickly as possible...its to try and find a teammate. In which case DLP can be a great option. It maybe adds one extra pass at the back from a gk or defender but maybe more potential for a successful outcome. Not to mention the benefit in terms of transition shape to take a little time before the direct pass. 

Sometimes you may want whoever picks up the ball in turnover to immediately launch the ball forward, i think this was the meaning in hernes caveat. I dont think its a direct concern of whether or not you use a playmaker. 

[Rashidi]

Essentially in this game we have creators and scorers. You need a certain breed of players to work the ball, allowing other players to work the space. What this means is that you need players who are comfortable with the ball at their feet, their close control allows them to shift the ball from one foot to the other foot without skipping a beat. One of the greatest players who can do this is Andrea Pirlo, who probably has the best close control of a ball at his feet.

It's for this reason I refer to them as "magnets". These kind of roles allow us to create overloads. When you watch a football game, watch what the good playmakers do. They control the ball so well, that they attract players to them. They are a danger when they are on the ball, that managers frequently don't want them to have too much time on the ball. Some are so good they can dance through defences. Think Hazard. 

When Liverpool had Alonso, he wasn't one who could dance through teams, so they put Gerrard in front of him. He essentially had players around him who would protect him so that he could have more time on the ball to find that probing pass.

In the game of FM, its the same thing. You need to decide where you want to play them. You can play a playmaker in any tier. Some other roles aren't playmaker per se, but they play like one. For example: F9, Trequartista, Mezzala, Regista, even the IWB to some extent.  All these roles share certain things in common, they all require decisions, vision. They need good first touch, balance, passing. Most of them require good off the ball skills, why? Cos OTB is the one attribute that defines whether a player makes himself available for the pass.

So how do you use them, there are many roles that can play like a playmaker and you can use them in any tier. What you need to do is understand how you use their ability to control the ball and draw opposition players onto them to create overloads and 1v1 chances for yourself. 

For example, I love using a APM with a Mezzala in close proximity. Some people have expressed shock at this, but wait. Both of these players can work the half spaces together. We can then use their close proximity passing to keep control of the ball while we draw players to us so that we can unlock space for other players, and i almost always create multiple 1v1 chances when i use playmakers like that. The only thing that will hold you back is your imagination.

[SD]

58 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

The only way this statement is true is if you stick rigidly to the first sentence and assume the success of the direct ball is of no matter. 

In reality the primary aim is never just to get the ball forward as quickly as possible...its to try and find a teammate. In which case DLP can be a great option. It maybe adds one extra pass at the back from a gk or defender but maybe more potential for a successful outcome. Not to mention the benefit in terms of transition shape to take a little time before the direct pass. 

Sometimes you may want whoever picks up the ball in turnover to immediately launch the ball forward, i think this was the meaning in hernes caveat. I dont think its a direct concern of whether or not you use a playmaker. 

I agree to an extent, in practice it's a balancing act between the quality of the distribution and the speed of the transition.

What I'm arguing is that assuming the DLP and defenders of similar CA and typical attributes profile for the role, then the defenders, holding DM's, GK's ball distribution should be good enough so that the playmaker is better employed higher up the pitch.

Of course this would result in a higher number of misplaced passes than if you used a DLP, but employing one comes at an opportunity cost elsewhere in your midfield. So in that sense, it's not that a DLP slows down play period, but that he slows down play and that takes away from the distribution benefits he brings, enough so that I don't think I can spare this role in my setup.

[Rashidi]

14 hours ago, SD said:

but employing one comes at an opportunity cost elsewhere in your midfield. So in that sense, it's not that a DLP slows down play period, but that he slows down play and that takes away from the distribution benefits he brings,

That just shows a lack of understanding on how the right distribution of roles and duties within specific mentalities helps you with transitions. You can get fast counter attacks with a DLP deep in a 4132 and I have done that many times on different mentality settings. There is zero cost. In fact on some shapes its almost impossible to play without using DLPs if you are opting to set a system up with someone playing deep to trigger them.

The key here is this. If you want to use a DLP to trigger counters then he needs to have receivers of the ball ready to pounce. This means paying attention to the right kind of roles and duties, whether you are attacking space. For example lets take a simple 4141 for example.

If someone plays a 4141 and opts to use a HB, or a DM, the type of transitions you get are different. When using a halfback the way you work the ball with the central defenders and keeper is vital. Here you are using the roles to draw other teams higher up the pitch so they vacate some space. Then you need to look at how the ball will be released. Here you will often find that the BPD and SK can play an effective role in starting attacks from deep which are usually one pass into space. In order for that to trigger an attack, we will need either wide mid to be on attacking duty. Here you can either use an IW or a Winger on attack. Then you have the other route, the striker up top. Here you would need a striker to be an effective target who can hold up the ball. Using simple roles like the DF or Poacher can be deceptively effective when paired with a IW(A) and a HB/SK(A) attack from deep. The same can work with a DLP playing in a deep position. Here the choice of duties is vital. With the DLP you can't really afford to have too many "thinkers" around him. So the SK may be an option but I wouldn't use a BPD, You can still trigger deep counters.

The same applies to the 4132 another deep counter attacking tactic i have used in the past using a low block. Here a DLP is almost mandatory for deep counters when playing on certain shapes. So i would disagree strongly with anyone who says that playmakers slow play down for counter attacking football. Counter attacking football can be played on ANY mentality, in fact your transitions become easier the higher up you go in risk. The only real determinant on whether you get quality counters or not depends on how you distribute your roles and duties.  A DLP's distribution is directly dependant on how you set roles/duties up to take advantage of the spaces you create. The DLP can't magically find players in space. Those players need to be in position to attack space. 

[mikcheck]

@Rashidi:

" Counter attacking football can be played on ANY mentality, in fact your transitions become easier the higher up you go in risk."

That what I was going to as ask, is it possible to play a counter attacking football while having a high mentality like control or attacking and using drop deeper TI? 

I think my roles and duties are well distributed for that, and I have fast and intelligent players in the final third.

[Rashidi]

I play counter attacking football on overload mentality, epic football.

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, mikcheck said:

That what I was going to as ask, is it possible to play a counter attacking football while having a high mentality like control or attacking and using drop deeper

Of course. Dont even need to drop deeper. You can dumb it down to two options when you win the ball 'turnover', and it looks like fm19 captures this nicely... 

1) regroup... Youve turned over the ball, now you want your team to get into shape so you might retain possession or play out of defence, you go from transition into attacking shape and then progress... Its slower more organised but obviously also allows the opposition to get into defensive shape. I would play this way if i was a decent enough side that im capable of keeping the ball... But also wary of my opponents attacking oace, so i dont want to attack before i have a solid shape

2) dont regroup... Instead counter-attack, as soon as i win the ball 'turnover' launch an attack. Might be achieved through higher tempo or a direct pass or dribbling with the ball. On overload this would happen nearly all of the time... In FM the counter mentality doesnt mean you will always look to counter (it will be less so than on attacking or overload where the team always looks to be positive when in possesion). It creates an environment where in general play will be conservative, but if the opponent over commits then the mentality will switch up as if on overload... And a direct counter attack can be launched. 

So counter attacks arent directly impacted by your dline... But those that require the opponent to over commit are impacted... As a deep line encourages more opponent players into their attacking phase

[Rashidi]

As an example think how certain roles draw teams higher up the pitch...the halfback is a very good example of one. When he recycles and passes the ball he actually drops very near the two defenders, watch how the opposition is drawn forward. When that happens you are already moving into a good counter attack position. I have seen numerous examples of people using the halfback, sweeper keeper pattern to do deep counters.

[ajsr1982]

To add to what's already been said, think about how you're getting the ball to your playmaker, and what the pitch looks like as he receives it. Why do I say this? Well, if you're looking for your playmaker to make the plays, certain conditions need to be true:

1. He needs people to pass to.

2. He needs to be facing in the general direction of said people.

So, if you're asking him to take the ball off the CBs, turn, and play a long ball into the attackers, you need to help him out. It may be fine if you're up against a 4-4-2 and you have a natural overload in the middle of the pitch. If you're against a high-pressing diamond however, things might be different. You might want to get the ball wide to draw players away from your playmaker, before feeding it back into him. Or you might go long, then recycle backwards.

[SD]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

That just shows a lack of understanding on how the right distribution of roles and duties within specific mentalities helps you with transitions. You can get fast counter attacks with a DLP deep in a 4132 and I have done that many times on different mentality settings. There is zero cost. In fact on some shapes its almost impossible to play without using DLPs if you are opting to set a system up with someone playing deep to trigger them.

Of course there are multiple ways to skin this cat, and I'm not doubting a deep playmaker can work with a direct tactic, I just don't think it's optimal compared to having your playmaker higher up the pitch. I don't even disagree with much of the rest of your post, this is the setup I had in mind when I weighed in on the topic - I want my playmaker high up and in position for when possession in gained and spray key passes to my striker and wide players(standard setup is with an AP(a), but vs weaker teams I can get away with a Treq).

On the other hand, this style of play wants to draw out the opposition and that will naturally invite some pressure on your defence, so I want a no-nonsense anchorman to keep things tight at the back. Last, the Volante has increased closing down PI and basically acts as a BWM in front of the defence, then rushes forward to support drawn out attacks. Often times this is the player that re-gains possession and sparks the attack, which is the reason I stayed clear of a BWM proper due to its default short passing settings.

I will grant you I may have overstated the drawbacks of a DLP, but I don't feel it brings enough to the table to merit switching the Anchorman to a DLP(d).

Another thing is that I don't usually play lower leagues, so my experience is likely skewed from working with better rounded players. When the defenders' passing is in the low digits, the need for a dedicated player to start attacks from deep may be felt differently.

[mikcheck]

 

 

Em 12/10/2018 em 10:09, Rashidi disse:

I play counter attacking football on overload mentality, epic football.

Thanks for the reply. Yes i've noticed that in one of your Kingstonian videos against Monaco!

Em 12/10/2018 em 10:16, westy8chimp disse:

Of course. Dont even need to drop deeper. You can dumb it down to two options when you win the ball 'turnover', and it looks like fm19 captures this nicely... 

1) regroup... Youve turned over the ball, now you want your team to get into shape so you might retain possession or play out of defence, you go from transition into attacking shape and then progress... Its slower more organised but obviously also allows the opposition to get into defensive shape. I would play this way if i was a decent enough side that im capable of keeping the ball... But also wary of my opponents attacking oace, so i dont want to attack before i have a solid shape

2) dont regroup... Instead counter-attack, as soon as i win the ball 'turnover' launch an attack. Might be achieved through higher tempo or a direct pass or dribbling with the ball. On overload this would happen nearly all of the time... In FM the counter mentality doesnt mean you will always look to counter (it will be less so than on attacking or overload where the team always looks to be positive when in possesion). It creates an environment where in general play will be conservative, but if the opponent over commits then the mentality will switch up as if on overload... And a direct counter attack can be launched. 

So counter attacks arent directly impacted by your dline... But those that require the opponent to over commit are impacted... As a deep line encourages more opponent players into their attacking phase

Thanks.

Yes both ways can be played. It's a matter of mentality and maybe some TI change. I guess that a bottom heavy formation is also very important to see more counters.

Em 12/10/2018 em 10:23, Rashidi disse:

As an example think how certain roles draw teams higher up the pitch...the halfback is a very good example of one. When he recycles and passes the ball he actually drops very near the two defenders, watch how the opposition is drawn forward. When that happens you are already moving into a good counter attack position. I have seen numerous examples of people using the halfback, sweeper keeper pattern to do deep counters.

I wonder if a DLP is also a good fit for that? He also drops very deep near the defenders. I believe that a Halfback is better used when you use systems with players in WB, not FB.