Automated Substitutions

[The Dude]

Okay, I raised this initially in the bugs forum.  I was told it wasn't a bug, but an intentional feature of the game.  I'm talking about how automatic substitutions are made for you when you are using a 'match plan'.  I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's thoughts about this.  

I set up a match plan that would change elements of my tactics depending on whether I was drawing, losing or winning at certain points in the match.  But I find substitutions occurring on my team, completely out of my control.  The SI person who responded to my report of this as a bug (the thread now seems to have been deleted) said it was an intentional feature, to make sure correct players were in positions when the match plan changed my formation.  But there are a couple of problems with this explanation:

1. My match plan did not involve a change of formation, just a change of mentality and some player duties. 

2. Regardless of whether or not a formation change occurred as a result of a match plan, do we really want a management game to take control of our own substitutions?  Really?  Is it only me that finds this odd and unacceptable? 

Thoughts, anyone?   

[Snorks]

I always thought the Match Plan feature was for players who don't watch or take part in the match themselves.  Kind of saying to your AssMan "Look, I won;t be there on Saturday but here's what we should do if........"

I have never used it - I prefer to be in control when we are playing.

 

[The Dude]

Hmm.  Is that what Match Plans are really for?  I thought it was the equivalent of the instructions you give to a team about how to handle a match.  I know pro managers do this kind of thing.  And when I used to run a Sunday League side in real life, we had a set of match plan instructions we used for every match, and then we'd add tweaks for certain matches.  But standing instructions were things like: For the first ten minutes of every match, we'd play long ball.  If we were behind in the second half, we'd go full kitchen sink.  If we were winning in last ten minutes, we'd pull everybody back, and shut up shop. Pro managers might be a bit more complex than that, but the principle remains the same.  And yet never when I was running my team, did I ask 'god' to make my substitutions for me, and I'm pretty sure Pep Guardiola doesn't either.  I think SI need to clarify the issue.    

[Snorks]

That was my understanding when they first came into the game - reading the tool-tip in-game information about them. They were intended to be used when you weren't managing the match yourself.

[The Dude]

Wow.  somehow I've completely missed that.  And misunderstood that aspect of the game.  Still, considering what I thought it was for, I think SI have missed a trick here.  If there was an option for creating match plans in which substitutions were not automated, it would more accurately reflect real life, and is something I would use.  But thanks for letting me know about this.  

[Lucas]

Yes, Match Plans will do this and have been in the game in some form for a number of years. Originally on FMC (now T)

It used to be possible to allow substitutions in some scenarios but now only after a specified time. I wonder if this is a bug, but I'm fairly sure in FM this was never allowed for certain scenarios anyway.

It will make substitutions if: 

- There are better players on the bench at the time subs are allowed

- If players are unfit and need coming off, 

- The change in formation (including roles etc) necessitates players being subbed off for someone more suited, as players can be swapped around.

You should be able to turn off a match plan mid-match though, iirc.

[The Dude]

Hmm.  Well I've attached a screenshot of the Match Plans part of the manual, and it doesn't say anything about automated substitutions, so I'm taking the position that this is a badly thought out area of game design, poorly communicated to the paying gamers, and is an opportunity missed. 

[Lucas]

27 minutes ago, The Dude said:

and it doesn't say anything about automated substitutions, so I'm taking the position that this is a badly thought out area of game design, poorly communicated to the paying gamers, and is an opportunity missed. 

If I had to wager a guess, the automated subs are happening any time after 60 minutes (though if you have an injury or formation change before then, you might well get them sooner). 

In fairness, automated substitutions are needed in some cases where you are changing tactics a fair bit. Why would you want to keep a winger on the pitch if you moved to a wingerless formation?

60 minutes for subs is quite often when people make them as well is my guess.

So I think the issue in your case is, its not communicated via the manual. 

Here are some screenshots of the modules in FM vs FMT:

FM: 

FMT: 

You can see in FMT you can select when to explicitly make substitutions. 

As I said, you used to be able to specify whether to allow subs in certain scenarios (from Classic mode, FM13): 

...which is now no longer possible in FMT: 

or FM: 

So my guess is they took it out because they felt automation made sense, or it was an oversight. I don't really know.

Hope that helps.

[The Dude]

I appreciate the input and discussion.  

Like I said (somewhere) earlier though, in real life managers will set up instructions for certain scenarios, but not expect god (or their AM) to make subs for them. This is where SI are missing a trick. I would love to be able to set up match plans, include them in a tactical briefing thereby prepping the players for how we will manage the match, but keep control of substitutions.  It seems so obvious, I cannot understand why SI would have thought automation was a good idea.  

[Lucas]

6 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Like I said (somewhere) earlier though, in real life managers will set up instructions for certain scenarios, but not expect god (or their AM) to make subs for them. This is where SI are missing a trick. I would love to be able to set up match plans, include them in a tactical briefing thereby prepping the players for how we will manage the match, but keep control of substitutions.  It seems so obvious, I cannot understand why SI would have thought automation was a good idea.  

Because the selection within a scenario is a little confusing (does it override my main instruction, or the default subs setting, or not?). 

Also, as I'm sure you've noticed, implementing a match plan does all the automation for you (but doesn't lock you out, I don't think). It makes sense to me some subs take place in some circumstances, but a prompt would be nice. I don't think its clear when your formation suddenly changes unless you're totally aware this will happen due to what you've chosen. 

It probably makes sense for FM to turn off automated substitutions since you can't Instant Result anyway (you can in FMT) and you are actually at the match, and maybe leave the automated subs on for IR only. That is if they didn't put the scenario options back in...

[Snorks]

21 hours ago, The Dude said:

Hmm.  Well I've attached a screenshot of the Match Plans part of the manual, and it doesn't say anything about automated substitutions, so I'm taking the position that this is a badly thought out area of game design, poorly communicated to the paying gamers, and is an opportunity missed. 

Can't disagree with what you say about the automated subs.

I can't remember when they first came in, as I never touched them, but in the manual the clue is there in the first line. "Match Plans will be carried out by your Assistant Manager" so read it as, "Manager unable to be on the touchline, discusses the plan with Assistant on the Friday. AssMan run the plan o the Saturday, but has to adjust according to situation."

The pre-match briefing could potentially be the place for your idea to work, presenting the overall strategy to the squad. 

[The Dude]

I accept the manual says the match plan will be carried out by the assistant manager, but like you say, it doesn't mention automated subs.  

Basically, I don't think SI have thought this through very well.  The pre-match briefing doesn't offer the options that match plans do.  Maybe SI should look at this for next year's game.  I think it's reasonable to be able to brief players in advance how you will approach 'game management' for any given match; how you plan to tweak your tactics in light of whatever circumstances come up in the match; at what point you will switch from a positive to a defensive mentality, or vice versa etc.  This is what real life managers do without asking their assistant manager to take control of substitutions for them.  It boggles my mind that there is even a debate on this. 

Match plans as they currently work on FM may be about automation for gamers who can't be arsed with the actual matches, but it has raised two problems.  One: it hasn't been explained well (I refer you back to the manual).  Two: It has dangled the carrot of being able to discuss game (match) management with your players, but then slapped you with the stick of automated substitutions if you implement the discussed plan.  

If SI do introduce a game element in which you can discuss all the finer points of how you will manage a match, the question is how should it affect gameplay.  I know a bit about game design, and the golden rule is nothing goes in as window dressing - every element of play must affect the game.  I would suggest that discussing a match plan with your players should add a benefit to your tactical effectiveness... as long as you stick to your plan.  If you don't stick to your plan (IE you manually override your match plan), then it should incur a penalty on your tactical effectiveness in the match (reflecting that the players are confused), and should result in the players demanding an explanation afterwards, or losing faith in your managerial ability.

As an added extra, you could have occasional situations where you override a match plan because something completely unexpected happened that could not be planned for.  In this case, it could be tactical genius, meaning you actually get an increase in your tactical effectiveness, and the players afterward praise your sheer genius. 

   

[Snorks]

Certainly not disagreeing with you that it couldn't be improved - I think we just had differing perceptions of what it actually did. I didn't go near it once I realised it took a lot of match control away from me.

The problem I would have with your idea though, is where would I stop? (This being more a personal thing, not saying it couldn't work or shouldn't be implemented in the game).

For example, when setting it up, from kick off, there are three major things that could happen:

1: Team A scores 1-0

2: Team B scores 0-1

3: Neither team scores 0-0

So let's look at 1, when Team A scores (us) we need to set out a plan for what happens after that, again three major things:

1: Team A scores 2-0

2: Team B scores 1-1

3: Neither team scores 1-0

We are already up to eighteen possible scenarios to have the match plan initiate and the score might only be 1-0. We haven't yet started to look at the finer points.

How this could be instigated in-game would be a huge thing for SI to manage, and could become more difficult for us the players to use. 

I can certainly see where you are coming from, and the pre-match briefing, when introduced, always felt to me like a feature that was going to get more flesh on it in future along these lines and would, indeed add another layer of realism to the game - avoiding extra layers of complexity would be the problem.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Snorks

[The Dude]

I think the issue with too much complexity in potential match plans of the type I describe could be handled pretty easily.  You see, you don't necessarily have to include EVERY SINGLE possibility in your match plan.  It should work in a way that after a certain point, trying to plan for too many eventualities would actually decrease any bonus to your tactical effectiveness because the players would be confused.  The amount of instructions your team can comfortably absorb without confusion would be a secret / hidden figure based on the intelligence of the squad.  So, you'd have to kind of learn what works and what doesn't by trial, error and experience, like in real life.   

The whole drive behind what I'm suggesting is simply based on how it works in the real world.  In the real world, managers DO give their players advance instructions on how they plan to manage a match; instructions that cover the things that are currently held in 'match plans' on FM rather than within 'tactical briefings':  Things like playing defensively unless we go behind, and so on.  It helps the players get their heads around how to achieve the objective in a match. Managers that give too much, over-detailed instruction risk confusing and demotivating their players.  Managers who don't brief their players risk alienating those players.  Managers who share their plans and then fail to follow through risk being seen as incompetent or (in rare cases, as discussed above) may be seen as tactical visionaries.   

If Sports Interactive wants to develop and improve the immersive and simulation parts of Football Manager, they've got to address things like this.  

Instead, they have given us pre-match tactical briefings that don't allow finer details of match management, and Match Plans that do allow that level of detail, but only if you're prepared to let things like substitutions become automatic.  It's like Starbucks telling me I can have coffee with milk, or coffee with sugar, but I can't have both milk AND sugar.  I'd go to Costa!  SI have pretty much cornered the market with football Management games just now, but look how Costa outmanoeuvred and overtook Starbucks in the UK.  SI need to wake up and smell the coffee!

I've run out of caffeine-based metaphors now.         

[Lucas]

27 minutes ago, The Dude said:

It's like Starbucks telling me I can have coffee with milk, or coffee with sugar, but I can't have both milk AND sugar.  I'd go to Costa!  SI have pretty much cornered the market with football Management games just now, but look how Costa outmanoeuvred and overtook Starbucks in the UK.  SI need to wake up and smell the coffee!

I've run out of caffeine-based metaphors now.  

Actually it's more like your supermarket delivery giving you decaf Nescafe when they are out of regular Nescafe, or something like that. Only you can't refuse or get a different brand. But anyway... 

Match Plans are no different to changing things on the fly so much during a game - it just does it for you. It already effects your Tactical Familiarity when you make changes so what you're asking for already happens. It just depends to what extent and how radical your changes are, how much you are "punished".

[The Dude]

Yes, but automated substitutions.  Just no.  

I just want to be able to brief my players on how we're going to manage the match, for it to have an effect on the game, and for me to be able to make my own substitutions. 

It's like Pizza Hut telling me I can have a deep pan pepperoni, but I've got to have salad not garlic bread, and they get to choose whether I have dessert.  

I'd go to to Pizza Express!

Just look how Pizza Hut are in decline, and look how Pizza Express are so successful you can buy their pizzas in a supermarket.  Although, if you order home delivery, they might send you a tin of beans instead. 

 

[Lucas]

Alright, enough of the analogies.  

As I said, its probably a bug and shouldn't happen during games but the probable reason for it is either by design (cause they happen in Instant Result in these cases), or it was a decision made. 

You're probably the first person I've seen talk about match plans in ages so my guess is, most people don't use it for whatever reason.

Would raise it in the match engine bugs forum and they can take a look at it. 

[The Dude]

I already did that!

It's like going into nandos and ordering butterfly chicken, and when they bring it, they also bring you some horrible rice you didn't order.  And you say, 'wait, I don't want rice.'  And they say, 'Dude, it's part of our plan for your meal that if you have butterfly chicken, you have rice as well.  We introduced this so that you don't have to think for yourself about your side orders.'

I'd go to KFC!

And look how KFC have bounced back from #ChickenGate!  Meanwhile, nandos are, IDK, something bad. 

[leviathan1904]

Am 8.11.2018 um 21:47 schrieb Snorks:

Certainly not disagreeing with you that it couldn't be improved - I think we just had differing perceptions of what it actually did. I didn't go near it once I realised it took a lot of match control away from me.

The problem I would have with your idea though, is where would I stop? (This being more a personal thing, not saying it couldn't work or shouldn't be implemented in the game).

For example, when setting it up, from kick off, there are three major things that could happen:

1: Team A scores 1-0

2: Team B scores 0-1

3: Neither team scores 0-0

So let's look at 1, when Team A scores (us) we need to set out a plan for what happens after that, again three major things:

1: Team A scores 2-0

2: Team B scores 1-1

3: Neither team scores 1-0

We are already up to eighteen possible scenarios to have the match plan initiate and the score might only be 1-0. We haven't yet started to look at the finer points.

How this could be instigated in-game would be a huge thing for SI to manage, and could become more difficult for us the players to use. 

I can certainly see where you are coming from, and the pre-match briefing, when introduced, always felt to me like a feature that was going to get more flesh on it in future along these lines and would, indeed add another layer of realism to the game - avoiding extra layers of complexity would be the problem.

The core of match plans is generalization (so, reducing complexity), isn't it?  You don't need the precise result for scenarios (0-0, 1-0 or 1-1, 1-1 or 2-1 or 1-2), but some kind of path dependence, maybe linked with time designation: "drawing-since-the-beginning", "being-in-front-after-drawing" , "falling-behind-after-drawing", "drawing-after-being-in-front", "drawing-after-falling-behind". It would be enough because you can set up different match plans for different opponents (being favorite, being underdog, balanced). Personally, it don't think, managers IRL would make it too complicated. The rest is coaching and reacting spontaneously, without automated substitutions.  

[Snorks]

Yeah  I get what's being said, and I think they probably could be improved to a more user friendly or realistic module. (and yeah, me being so detail focused I probably would end up creating so many different scenarios in my head and convincing myself ALL would probably happen).

In truth, I don;t know how many people use them, I never have, reading them as something to use when not 'attending' the game.

I don't know how hard or how big a project it would be to factor the many different things in to the ME programming, even if we don;t make all the different choices.

Might be worth raising it in the 'features request' area anyway.

[stmusicdude]

The Dude on this post made me laugh not for reasons I think it'll expect . What waffle! 

So basically AM is taking over with a match plan accept, you dont want him to.. so dont run a match plan lol

[Guest]

I thought, match plan will be like an automated "bot" for mentality and team instructions which is kinda huge discover for me. But...

The whole point is, I am not in holiday; just watching key highlights. So, why Assistant Manager makes subs?

There should be an option to turn off AM making subs.

We are talking for full game release.

In FMT, you have the option when AM will make a sub.

It's not fair for us which we are playing the matches - not going on holiday or instant result button to not have the options:

1. Turn Off Assistant Manager Make Sub

2. Tell when AM Make Sub (it's already in FMT).

[theleebarnes]

In all my years playing I've never touched the match plans, but as I found myself making the same changes, like trying to go for a goal in the last five minutes or holding on to a lead thought I'd give them a try.

In theory, I quite like the idea - if you're winning by a goal etc you tighten up

So 3 scenarios were made, 85-90 winning by 1+, 85 - 90 losing by 1+ and any time losing by 3+ (shut up shop and save face)

Instead I find my RW being substituted after 40 minutes every game

Needless to say I've binned it off and won't use them again

[just another Marc]

I was so fed up with goals conceded after 90 minutes that I decided to give game plans a try. Hadn't used it in previous versions of the game, so I was surprised by what it can do. 

Automated substitutions, though?

It seems blindingly obvious to me that, if I want to automate substitutions, then there should be scenario options that let me specify who and when. I've had massive injury problems this season, and have needed to juggle like a circus clown to get a team out. I was just going to bring slip my just-back guy on for a few minutes late on, and all my subs had been used  I rarely make 3rd sub, cos FM just loves to injure someone after you do that. (Or have them sent off). 

Aside from this big deal-breaker, the match plan has been working pretty well for me.

[gooseta]

I've had this issue too, absolutely no idea why this isn't communicated, I literally just wanted to change the mentality to balanced and alter a couple of instructions after 70 mins, at the very least it should give you a prompt before the sub is made, or there should be a note when you click proceed to match that says 'this tactic includes match plan x that will be handled by your assistant, who will take control of tactical changes, substitutions, etc. Really frustrating, and no doubt this is especially confusing to new players, I myself have played since fm11 but haven't played much between 16 and 20, and I don't remember when the feature was introduced so I didn't have context for this

[Striker415]

I can't find the option to specify auto substitutions on FM 21, but on FM21 Touch, it has the option. Am I missing something. Why would Touch have it and not in the full game?

[MaxRMG]

+1

 

i can't find no way to turn on substitutions

[petertr]

Found this thread from google searching how to make automatic subs (for my "extra teams" that I leave on holiday for 3-6 months at a time - My affiliate teams, I take them over and turn them into the best teams in their countries).

 

I tried match plans for the very first time - a simple plan was setup  - "If winning by 2+ goals, then switch to a different tactic".  This tactic is just my "see the game out" version - time wasting, no pressing, no tackling etc - but its the exact formation and rules.

I thought I'd watch how it panned out for the first try.  And I was winning by 2+ in the first half, and I noticed the tactic had changed over - all good so far.

Then without any warning, my assman made 3 subs on 60 minutes - there's nothing about this in the match plans?????  This never happened to me before.

[epzi]

Re-upping this thread, it would be great if we have to disable automatic subs when using match plan. It can be pretty boring to re-do the same tasks every time you're being lead or when you lead 3-0 at 80" so I thought that match plans would be very useful and pretty realistic but I can't really use it considering that my assman makes automatic subs while I've never asked for that thing. Please reconsider this!