Explanation for the touchline shouts

[Pendraz]

So, they have been around for some years, shrouded in mistery for the most part on what they actually do, and this year it has gotten even more weird, because to be honest, no matter what the current situation of the match, the result seems to be always the same: push forward/encourage/praise/concentrate: "frustration/overwhelmed", show some passion, demand more: "fired up/focused".

It doesn't matter if we are losing or winning, players having good ratings or bad, the match being important or not, the same shouts will always have the same result, which pretty much becomes an action you feel like you have to do it, because what's the harm anyways in spamming "demand more" if the feedback I receive is ALWAYS that the whole squad is now "more focused".

But putting aside the fact that we don't know what that "focused" actually implies from a ME point of view, the question should be, why this specific shout seems to be always having a positive effect, while other shouts seem (at least in my experience) to be having always a negative effect?

Anyone else cares to share their experience with this? To be honest I like the idea of the shouts immersion wise (even if unlike tactical instructions, I feel these should have immediate effect, but I know that the ME is technically limited from this point of view), however they feel severly lacking in purpose and clarity for now, and a feature that could definitely use some love.

Thoughts?
 

[oulzac]

Overwhelmed by the feedback.

[Weston]

Following, as I agree and would love to see any insight that is provided in reply.

[macro]

I'm quite interested to know about those too, because I get the same feedbacks as yours.

[rosesuburban]

Just my two cents: I noticed that defenders and midfielders who are instructed to "Hold Position" are 'overwhelmed' by the shout "Push Forward." It does not seem to affect my wing-backs at all, but my forwards respond positively. I typically avoid "Praise" as I think a squad with the general character "Determined" or "Resolute" likes to be challenged and pushed to give more; responding negatively if praised mid-game. I could be leading 4-0 at half-time, and my Determined team would mostly be motivated for the 2nd half if I said "I am not happy about your performance" every single time. However, one or two players with the highest ratings would be discouraged. I would then personally tell each that has reacted poorly that "You were not that bad but you can do better..." there's a 50/50 chance they can either bounce back or be thoroughly dumbfounded. That's just my experience.

[Snorks]

I just went looking,  but couldn't find, a piece/post I saw about this, I think I have it printed out at home somewhere so will try and dig it out later.

The touchline shouts DO impact certain things - they all do, but with different strength effects on different positions/roles/duties. Most were around mentalities.

So "Push Forward" would increase the attacking player's mentality, the support duties a bit less, and Defend duties even less.

"Tighten Up" was effectively the opposite. Reducing mentalities. Defenders more defensive, midfielders more defensive/less attack minded etc.

You could 'Encourage' for a morale boost ("Praise" was another one, but I  rarely used it)

"Concentrate" I think reduced some of the 'flair' and became a bit more structured.

So on and so forth.

 

The effects were small in most cases, and very temporary, only lasting 10-15 minutes then the team would revert to normal.

Used well, they could make a difference with a goal, or better defense, but get the wrong one at the wrong time would be just as damaging the other way.

 

[pauly15]

Seems they don't have a tactical affect.

[Pendraz]

They may not have a tactical effect, but whatever it is that they do, in whatever context, I'd still like to understand what exactly it is that they do?

The same applied for example in the previous versions of FM when you were selecting the match training focus to something like set pieces.

Fine it's supposed to help with those, but how? And what's the price to pay for that? Does it raise attributes temporarily, affects the ME in anyway or whatever, and does that mean that it affects negatively something else since to focus on set pieces the players couldn't spend as much time on other aspects?

I feel like I am supposed to make informed choices, not just what I believe to be the best one even if I don't really know to which extent it's going to have an effect on what I would like to achieve or if to receive a marginal benefit I am risking a much higher increase in injuries, for example.

Stuff like attributes is something you can't get wrong, because they are numbered, you can see and evaluate progress or the lack thereoff and which player is better to field for a certain position.

It's vague descriptions and responses like those of the touchline shouts that are not really helpful to make me understand sometimes what my choices are actually doing (or not doing at all).

[isignedupfornorealreason]

No idea, but anything I'd say would be 'confirmation bias' or just guessing.

 

My experience is that they're used to influence the mentality of the players play. So, you encourage teams that are doing okay, or you tell them 'no pressure' to try and calm them down when they get all nervous etc.

 

I've used 'praise' to good effect - In matches where I dominate, but we fluff chances, sometimes I feel encouragement is a bit pointless, since they're doing the right things except the final ball. Praising them re-assures them they're on the right track, and usually we get a goal or two after this - but again, whether the shout helps is up in the air, it could be we're simply creating so many chances it was inevitable we'd score etc. 

But, I think they have less impact than team-talks - you're better off telling that youth debutant 'no pressure' before kick off rather than once the game has started for example. Maybe they have no effect at all? Who knows? :P

[Snorks]

15 hours ago, pauly15 said:

Seems they don't have a tactical affect.

That's the one I was talking about - thanks!

[Morphiushell]

Encourage, Show Some Passion, Push Forward, and Praise all contribute to the players being pumped up more if successful. If unsuccessful, they’ll become more frustrated.

Concentrate, Tighten Up, and Demand More increase each players’ individual and collective focus if successful. If not, they’ll lose focus.

Calm Down and No Pressure seek to relax the players but, in some situations, can burden then with additional pressure.

Get Creative loosens the shackles on the players and encourages them to be more expansive with their passing.

The success of a touchline shout depends on the morale, motivation and body language of each player, and so it pays to ensure you’ve checked this information (from a widget or from the main tactics screen) before making a shout.

[bar333]

I think they're bugged atm. As you say, Show some passion\demand more\get creative are the only ones to have a positive effect, the rest always result in your entire team having a negative reaction. I just spam them every 15-20 mins, which one depends on my mood.

[luka_zg]

I never used them, they are irrelevant for the game I think. 

[HUNT3R]

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

I think they're bugged atm. As you say, Show some passion\demand more\get creative are the only ones to have a positive effect, the rest always result in your entire team having a negative reaction. I just spam them every 15-20 mins, which one depends on my mood.

He didn't say that though. He's saying ALL of them could have possible positive or negative consequences.

[Johnny Ace]

I've only dabbled a little with these as I hate players looking nervous or disinterested

Demand more or Show some passion usually works on the less interested players

Coming from behind & then leading using Praise gets a positive response

Get Creative gets a response from support & attack players 

The rest, I don't know, I told a keeper who'd just screwed up to Concentrate & he weren't happy, I've tried all sorts with nervous players & haven't helped  

I'll have a read of the link

 

 

[roykela]

My experience is also that Demand More and Show Some Passion result in all my players being fired up.
Use anything else and they're all frustrated and overwhelmed. I'm on my 3rd team in my save in 3 different countries but the result is exactly the same, every time.
Regardless of how their perfomance, body language and what the score is.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, roykela said:

My experience is also that Demand More and Show Some Passion result in all my players being fired up.
Use anything else and they're all frustrated and overwhelmed. I'm on my 3rd team in my save in 3 different countries but the result is exactly the same, every time.
Regardless of how their perfomance, body language and what the score is.

I regularly use Get Creative and Push Up. I don't always get positive results, but I do get more positive results than negative ones.

[alanschu14]

Compared to previous seasons, I am finding "Encourage" only gets a positive result when expectations are low.

As I stomped all over 3. Liga with Kaiserslautern it was never good. But when I used it against RB Leipzig in a cup game, I got positive responses.

 

Just my anecdotal assessment in any case.

[herne79]

On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 17:27, Pendraz said:

The same applied for example in the previous versions of FM when you were selecting the match training focus to something like set pieces.

Fine it's supposed to help with those, but how? And what's the price to pay for that? Does it raise attributes temporarily, affects the ME in anyway or whatever, and does that mean that it affects negatively something else since to focus on set pieces the players couldn't spend as much time on other aspects?

For FM18 and before:

Attacking set pieces - small improvement to the chance of scoring (so an ME modifier)

Defending set pieces - small improvement to the chance of preventing a goal

Attacking movement - small improvement to Decisions and Off the Ball (attribute modifier)

Def. positioning - small improvement to Decisions and Positioning

Teamwork - small improvement to Teamwork and Team Blend (attribute and ME modifier)

Match prep - improves tactical familiarity

*note - "Team Blend" is a Match Engine modifier.  Many things contribute to this, such as tactical familiarity and team cohesion.  So if we ignore such things, Team Blend goes down which has a negative impact on the our team during matches.  Improve Team Blend and improve how our team plays.

Match Preparation has a small, temporary boost for the next match only and only the last one trained has an impact (so you can't do all 6 during a week and expect all to have an impact).

The more time you spend on Match Prep, the less time players spend on General Training.  General Training directly affects player attribute development.

As said above, this is for FM18 and before as that was the question asked.  For FM19, check the two pinned Training Guides at the top of the Tactics and Training forum.

With regards to the original question about Touchline Teamtalks:

On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 17:27, Pendraz said:

They may not have a tactical effect, but whatever it is that they do, in whatever context, I'd still like to understand what exactly it is that they do?

it's explained in that guide.  They affect (for a short time) player moods, morale and body language.  It's influenced by our tone of voice, manager and player personalities and our relationship with our players.  Everything is contextual, so we can only experiment to see what may/may not work based on how well we know our players.  It's impossible to list all the possible contexts because the permutations are huge.  What may work with one player may have the opposite effect with another and depends on what's happening at any given point during a match.  So if you don't know your players very well or aren't confident using the touchline team talks, then not using them is always an option as well.

[Pendraz]

Hi herny79,

Really appreciate that answer, especially about the effect of the specific training focus.

On 28/11/2018 at 09:25, herne79 said:

With regards to the original question about Touchline Teamtalks:

... They affect (for a short time) player moods, morale and body language.  ...

I understand that, but to rephrase my point (about not understanding the meaning of these shouts):

What kind of change can I expect during the match depending on the improvement (or worsening?) of those player's "morale/moods/etc"?

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Pendraz said:

What kind of change can I expect during the match depending on the improvement (or worsening?) of those player's "morale/moods/etc"?

Player morale, mood and whatnot are match engine modifiers.  You won't see dramatic changes to player performance when you use shouts - there may not even be noticeable changes - it's more to do with small percentage changes.  This is why you might see some people say the shouts don't do anything: simply because changes are not necessarily noticeable.  However, as Tesco likes to say, "every little helps" so perhaps that small percentage change may actually sometimes make a difference.  Of course it's all contextual based around your personality, each player's personality, your relationship with your players, the events in a match and so on, so what may work for one player in a match may not work for a team mate - or even for the same player in a different match.  This is why there's no definitive guide.

[westy8chimp]

8 hours ago, Pendraz said:

Hi herny

@herne79 oh yes... A new nickname for you which will definitely be used from now on

 

[herne79]

3 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

@herne79 oh yes... A new nickname for you which will definitely be used from now on

 

I double dare you.

[Lamias]

On 28/11/2018 at 11:25, herne79 said:

With regards to the original question about Touchline Teamtalks:

it's explained in that guide.  They affect (for a short time) player moods, morale and body language.  It's influenced by our tone of voice, manager and player personalities and our relationship with our players.  Everything is contextual, so we can only experiment to see what may/may not work based on how well we know our players.  It's impossible to list all the possible contexts because the permutations are huge.  What may work with one player may have the opposite effect with another and depends on what's happening at any given point during a match.  So if you don't know your players very well or aren't confident using the touchline team talks, then not using them is always an option as well.

Excuse me, but I find that weird and frankly, a little suspicious. :P

When a feature is implemented, there has to be AT LEAST a basic set of rules for the players to follow them and draw their conclusions, otherwise the feature is implemented horribly IMO. I mean, how did SI create the feature? Didn't they follow some rules to create it? I obviously don't wanna know what each shout does in every occasion on every player, because that would indeed be impossible.

What I would like to know though, is how on earth can I start experimenting and write down the results in order to understand what shouts to use when. The guidelines that should IMO be accessible to us are the following:

- What tone of voice is GENERALLY appropriate for each personality (so we can have a starting point for our experiments)

- Which Manager stats are relevant (I would guess motivating but an argument could be made for Level of Discipline or Man Management also, and we shouldn't have to guess, which is often the case in FM)

- How are relationships important for touchline shouts (obviously close relationships = better chance, but what about mediocre relationships? Where is the bar set?)

- Which player attributes or personalities contribute to them becoming "disinterested" or "complacent" (this happens to some players, not all of them, so the factor is not just winning or losing otherwise all players would get that)

- Explanation of why they were "overwhelmed by the feedback" so we can draw our conclusions

I am sure other basic guidelines would exist, but these were the ones I thought. The fact that not even this is explained makes me think that the feature is broken.

For instance, I always use "get creative", "demand more" and "show some passion", and when I win 2-0 or more "Praise". This is it. I cannot even begin to explore the other shouts because when I use them and get the "overwhelmed" feedback, I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why they reacted that way. So how can I experiment?

 

A feature that would help is the ability to speak with your team leader during the match. IRL, when there is a set piece or an injury or a goal, many captains rush to their managers to talk, get feedback and convey to him the squad's situation. We shouldn't have to rely only on body language to deduce what's happening as if we were pick-up artists. It's only logical that the captain can speak to the manager, he is on the touchline and the game stops on many occasions. That way he can explain why his teammate is "complacent" or "disinterested".

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Lamias said:

Excuse me, but I find that weird and frankly, a little suspicious. :P

 

On ‎28‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 09:25, herne79 said:

not using them is always an option as well.

However, if a basic guide is what you are after, that's linked above.  It's not going to cover detail about personalities, relationships or attributes because it would be massively long and wouldn't be used.  I understand you are after a starting point - that starting point is you and your players, but will quickly escalate.  Look at your own levels of motivational skills and professionalism.  Read the coach reports about your players - who has good or bad professionalism?  Who can handle Pressure?  Who has a nasty streak?  And so on.  Then study your hierarchy and previous conversations with players.  Does anyone like/not like you?  And that of course doesn't even get into what's happening on the pitch at the time, who you're playing or match importance.  I'll also add that typically the only people who want to get involved in that degree of detail are the ultimate min/maxers.  For us lesser folk, just using plain old common sense is the way to go.

Also if you're getting into praise and players feeling overwhelmed (which you mention), that's not touchline team talks and isn't covered here.

[Lamias]

First of all, I respectfully disagree with the "not using them" suggestion. What if I need that small percentage of boost to win the last match of the League, or a cup final? Suggesting not to use it seems to me like "well, it's kind of random, so if you don't like random stuff don't use it". Feels like hiding the problem instead of facing it and solving it.

Second, I meant that the "praise" shout always yields good results, as do those that I mentioned above. It's the other shouts that I can't get them to work no matter the situation.

 

So this advice is good and seems logical, but I still have the same problem I stated above: It's vague and non-specific.

 

How much % does player professionalism matter for the shout to be successful? How much % does pressure matter? If a player has good professionalism but low pressure, which is the most important of the two that has the final say over his reaction to my shout?

If the player has good relations with me but he is not a professional, which factor of those two wins?

If he has bad relations with me but he has good pressure and professionalism, which aspect wins there?

 

I would state that these are the questions that need answering IMO.

Also:

https://medium.com/@v_maedhros/understanding-roles-in-football-manager-and-real-life-part-1-73054cfbb303

These are pretty big guides, and yet they are used very effectively.

 

Thanks for replying.