Nothing is working - FM18

[Gatononi]

 Im in my 5th season at Bournemouth. So far I've been able to win an FA Cup (1st season), Europa League (3rd season) and the Super Cup (beginning of the 4th season). Hightest finishing position was in the 3rd season when i came in 2nd only 1 point behind Man City. Anyway, I am at a dead end. I have no clue what to do anymore and I'm really getting stessed. Nothing i do works. I started with a normal 4231 on standard and structured and it worked well in the 1st season. The 2nd season i moved to fluid instead of structured and it seemed to work ok. From here i have been using a 4231 with SV and a DLP/DM and it worked really well. The team instructions were set to Higher Defensive line, Close down more, Play out of defense and Offside Trap. However for some reason its not working, whether i change the mentality or team shape or the team instructions, nothing works. I would really appreciate some help. 

[KUBI]

It's maybe better to post this in the tactics forum.

[Gatononi]

Ops, sorry my bad! First time on here, thanks though. 

[FMunderachiever]

youve won all that with a **** club like Bournemouth, and you say "nothing works"?

[herne79]

@Gatononi Welcome to the forum .

To give you specific advice we'll need to know your detailed tactical set up (screenshots would be ideal) and the type of problems you are having.  When you say "nothing works", in what way?  Where are you in the league now?

Your own expectations may need a little tweak as well.  You've enjoyed a good run with Bournemouth, so are you now expecting even more too soon?

[Gatononi]

 

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

@Gatononi Welcome to the forum .

To give you specific advice we'll need to know your detailed tactical set up (screenshots would be ideal) and the type of problems you are having.  When you say "nothing works", in what way?  Where are you in the league now?

Your own expectations may need a little tweak as well.  You've enjoyed a good run with Bournemouth, so are you now expecting even more too soon?

Hello , I'm really struggling to create chances and when i eventually do, the finishing is very very poor. Tried playing work the ball into the box but no luck.  So far this season, I have tried various formations as well as tweaked the 4231 DM and can't get any decent runs going. I know I have a high defensive line and when I see that the opposition starts playing over the top balls i adjust the instructions accordingly but it doesn't seem to help. Also the 2 DMs are stuck on each other like PB & J. I'm probably in my own head and can't see the simple solution.  

[Gatononi]

11 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

youve won all that with a **** club like Bournemouth, and you say "nothing works"?

Haha I like them and wanted to make them a real powerhouse 

[Experienced Defender]

Push Higher Up and Close Down More at the same time are simply asking for trouble if you ask me (even with top-class defenders). Btw, I'm curious to learn why in the first place did you change your initial tactic (4231 standard structured) if you said it worked well? And then you again changed your next tactic, which you also said worked well. And then again, up until it stopped working 

On roles and duties... if you want a volante / dlp combo in defensive midfield, I'd suggest a bit different setup. Something like this for example:

DLFatt

IFsu           APMsu        Watt

 

DLPde     VOLsu

WBsu    CDde   CDco    IWBde

Now each player has enough good passing options in attack, while defense is better secured (though a high d-line can always be an issue, but at the end of the day, some kind of risk will always exist in any tactic). And given your high d-line, the keeper would ideally be a SK, but only if he has the right attributes. Otherwise, I wouldn't risk.

 

[robot_skeleton]

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Push Higher Up and Close Down More at the same time are simply asking for trouble if you ask me (even with top-class defenders)

I was encountering similar problems to the OP and what you wrote kind of made me think of my 4-3-3 wide tactic. If I see that I'm just giving the opposition too much time on the ball and space and they can bring the ball forward, what else would you do other than raising the DL, LoE and pressing? I know it's asking for trouble, but so does the opposite.

[Experienced Defender]

2 minutes ago, robot_skeleton said:

If I see that I'm just giving the opposition too much time on the ball and space and they can bring the ball forward, what else would you do other than raising the DL, LoE and pressing?

Which version of FM are you playing, 18 or 19? In FM18, if I don't want to give the opposition (too) much time on the ball, my preference is to increase closing down for my forward players in their PIs (rather than using too aggressive team instructions). In a wide 433, those would be AMR&L and the striker. And could ask one of my CMs (the one that is the best defensively) to tackle harder (and if you use a BWM, he's already set to both tackle hard and press much more). Plus Prevent short GKD. You can even use OIs to hard tackle the opposition back-line (and DM, if they have them). More support duties are also helpful if you want to dominate possession.

In FM19, when I want to prevent the opposition from having much time in possession, I prefer to set the LOE a notch lower than DL (e.g. higher DL/standard LOE or standard DL/lower LOE), coupled with more urgent pressing, Prevent short GKD, plus counter-press in transition. Having a PF in attack and/or BWM in the midfield would also help. 

[robot_skeleton]

10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Which version of FM are you playing, 18 or 19? In FM18, if I don't want to give the opposition (too) much time on the ball, my preference is to increase closing down for my forward players in their PIs (rather than using too aggressive team instructions). In a wide 433, those would be AMR&L and the striker. And could ask one of my CMs (the one that is the best defensively) to tackle harder (and if you use a BWM, he's already set to both tackle hard and press much more). Plus Prevent short GKD. You can even use OIs to hard tackle the opposition back-line (and DM, if they have them). More support duties are also helpful if you want to dominate possession.

In FM19, when I want to prevent the opposition from having much time in possession, I prefer to set the LOE a notch lower than DL (e.g. higher DL/standard LOE or standard DL/lower LOE), coupled with more urgent pressing, Prevent short GKD, plus counter-press in transition. Having a PF in attack and/or BWM in the midfield would also help. 

Yeah, you're right, I actually never used closing down as PI, but always as TI. Btw I was talking about FM19, I'm really struggling to enjoy it, but I want to. It all just feels too vulnarable, the defensive side of the game, I just simply can't wrap my head around some of the stuff that is happenong on the pitch, feels too raw, like the whole thing could be awesome, it's just plagued by bad positioning, decision-making and etc.

[Experienced Defender]

48 minutes ago, robot_skeleton said:

Yeah, you're right, I actually never used closing down as PI, but always as TI. Btw I was talking about FM19, I'm really struggling to enjoy it, but I want to. It all just feels too vulnarable, the defensive side of the game, I just simply can't wrap my head around some of the stuff that is happenong on the pitch, feels too raw, like the whole thing could be awesome, it's just plagued by bad positioning, decision-making and etc.

Honestly, I prefer FM18 to FM19 in general, even though I've gained a good understanding of how tactics work in 19. The tactics creator in FM18 was better (more transparent and user friendly) than in FM19 IMO. What I like in FM19 though is the introduction of LOE and the "Play for SP" TIs as well as dividing the tactic into the 3 phases of play (which brings the game closer to RL football). On the other hand, as I once mentioned in another topic, defensive width is a surplus IMO, because in real life no team would defend "wider", but either very narrow or moderately narrow. So if SI wanted to bring DW into the game, they should have set just 2 options - narrow and standard, without wide.

[robot_skeleton]

27 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Honestly, I prefer FM18 to FM19 in general, even though I've gained a good understanding of how tactics work in 19. The tactics creator in FM18 was better (more transparent and user friendly) than in FM19 IMO. What I like in FM19 though is the introduction of LOE and the "Play for SP" TIs as well as dividing the tactic into the 3 phases of play (which brings the game closer to RL football). On the other hand, as I once mentioned in another topic, defensive width is a surplus IMO, because in real life no team would defend "wider", but either very narrow or moderately narrow. So if SI wanted to bring DW into the game, they should have set just 2 options - narrow and standard, without wide.

To be fair I haven't measured how wide the "defend wide" instructionis compared to other ones, but you make an interesting point, who in real real life defends wide? Although I'm thinking that the defensive side of what used to be "highly structured" in previous FMs is the "defend wide" instruction now (just a thought). That meant being less compact off the ball, more space between your players, so that's why I think, but I guess it's just speculation.

[Gatononi]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Push Higher Up and Close Down More at the same time are simply asking for trouble if you ask me (even with top-class defenders). Btw, I'm curious to learn why in the first place did you change your initial tactic (4231 standard structured) if you said it worked well? And then you again changed your next tactic, which you also said worked well. And then again, up until it stopped working 

On roles and duties... if you want a volante / dlp combo in defensive midfield, I'd suggest a bit different setup. Something like this for example:

DLFatt

IFsu           APMsu        Watt

 

DLPde     VOLsu

WBsu    CDde   CDco    IWBde

Now each player has enough good passing options in attack, while defense is better secured (though a high d-line can always be an issue, but at the end of the day, some kind of risk will always exist in any tactic). And given your high d-line, the keeper would ideally be a SK, but only if he has the right attributes. Otherwise, I wouldn't risk.

 

I opted to switch from my initial tactic (standard and structured) because I'm fairly impatient haha I moved to a more fluid nature which started bringing in good results. I have a habit of changing things when we start a bad run. Gotta learn to lose it. 

The inverted wing back and the PIs were a real eye opener. Thank you for the advice, helped a ton.  It's really nice seeing the way others think. 

Cheers!

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, robot_skeleton said:

Although I'm thinking that the defensive side of what used to be "highly structured" in previous FMs is the "defend wide" instruction now (just a thought). That meant being less compact off the ball, more space between your players, so that's why I think, but I guess it's just speculation.

No, mate. Team shape (structured or any other) from previous versions of FM has nothing to do with defensive width in FM19. Team shape was more about vertical than horizontal compactness, although it affected a lot more than just compactness. 

[summatsupeer]

As has been pointed out, you've had success so clearly it was working, but we don't know what you changed to end up with this tactic.  Not only that but if it was working, did you replace players with a similar player but an upgrade or did you change the strengths/type of the players to?  As you've had success your reputation will of increase which will affect how teams play against you, this is important if your tactic was very focused and lacked different options.

The thing that leaps out to me when I look at your tactic is more how your using 2 of the players, Neves and De Ligt.  Both are great creators for there position but not necessarily the best defensively and the tactic doesn't look to make use of there ball skills.  DLP-De is more of a simple linking player, lower risk and because your Playing Out Of Defence will be shorter passes, same for the CD-De.  Cook is also more of a playmaker unless he's developed differently in your game, so thats both DMs who are more creative players, 3 of your central 4 players.  Did you use to have better defensive players in these areas and now are a bit soft in the middle?

Tactically your two flanks are very different, whilst I like variety I think you've maybe gone a bit too far.  The W-Su will be staying wide but the FB-Su and DLP-De won't really look to use the space inside of him.  On the other flank the VOL-A will try to bomb forward but the IF-A will want to cut inside to, and neither really has cover with a WB-Su wanting to get forward as well.  @Experienced Defender has already shown one way you could tweak this, but I would still consider what I said about the players your using and how to balance the personnel and the tactic.