Manchester United- 4-1-4-1 help needed!!

[BigV]

Alright lads I need some help here, I've done some testing with this tactic and it's one i've used for many years on fm since 14 I think and it's always worked at united and my random team saves. For some reason it doesn't work out well for this fm and i've asked around and nothing really changes. Maybe its the formation mixed with ME but im starting to lose touch with it. 

For what I want it's to not dominate possession but to have a fair amount usually trying to have more than opposition hence the "positive" and play quick and wide. However, I've found it hard to contain possession and make chances count playing wide. I've tried playing narrow and it never works out with this team. I tend to use a deep-lying to dictate and control games and keep it moving. I've seen many people trying to use control and having lower tempo, now if you ask me controlling the game can consist of both quick and slow tempo, one person springs to mind is LVG and that never worked out. However, people trying to recreate pep's is always "slightly lower tempo" which i don't get at all because he makes them play quick. Does tempo even have the same effect anymore?? (17 way was asier to understand- fluid- control/attack).

First of all Defence wise I usually use attack duties cause they add a lot more crosses from play but a low percentage comes off however very useful most times. For what I want should be using wing back support as the mid section and defence cover when needed but found out it rarely helps with like a max of 6 crosses a game. 

DM usually use deep-lying but im wondering would or should I change it to defensive mid to offer a more defensive cover than deep lying does?

CM'S i have issues with, realistically i'd like B2B with a playmaker but most games it doesn't work out as the B2B effects the playmaker role or vice versa in terms of attacking and defending. I've been told that the Carrilero is similar but more defensive but realistic terms is more of a shuttler and act like wide playmakers in terms of attack and provide width so it'll be useless in this case. I think a ball winner would be useful but not really used that role before in a 3 man mid, but in a 2 man mid it'd work quite well. Would a deep lying playmaker do for support because I want the player to do their defensive role as a primary use but their 2nd instinct to support attacks which is why B2B sounds more useful.

Wide players- Inside forwards have always been ishy to me in terms of using support or attack more so in 19 than in 17 (my last fm game), from my view i tend to think support is someone like sanchez, silva, bernardo silva etc. that can dribble towards the middle, create and attack from deep so run at the defence, quick one-two's rather than someone like rashford who always tries to get beyond the defensive line and less link up play (my view on attack) is that right in terms of attack and support or have I dwelled too much onto its meaning too much?

Strikers I've always used complete forward support, always been a guy with a rounded attacker who can do it all: pass, link, shoot, hold up, move etc. I know strikers have had issues in 19 but I still think roles differ slightly apart from f9. With rashford being a adv forward, does that necessarily mean they try to beat the defensive line and get behind? i've never really understood the adv forward role much so i think its similar to a poacher which I think is wildly wrong. Any help would be appreciated thanks .

[denen123]

Not an expert, but if I'm your opponents I'll target your left area. "Look for overlap" increases the mentality of your Fullbacks coupled with An aggressive winger is dangerous. Cover- stopper really does nothing to mitigate how aggressive that defence is. Feel sorry for your DLPd against top teams. Also, if it's an overlapping/underlapping tactic, why not get a good runner? Maybe Mez/CMa? & Thats just on the overview. Intricate things like your TI combination + PI's are a bit confusing. Maybe start with as little as possible in terms of instructions.

[summatsupeer]

I think you've setup with too much focus on the two FB-A. Look for overlap will hold up the ball, combined with mentality, exploit flank and higher tempo with a high press.

2 of your 3 attack duties are the FBs. 2 of the 3 midfielders are playmakers so spend more time behind the ball or moving deep to collect. But then you've focused the team more on pass into space, who's going to keep up and support them so they're not isolated?

The best way to understand roles is to try them and spend as long as you can watching what they do and how it differs from other roles.

DM-D doesn't really provide more cover than DLP-D, they differ more with the ball than without it.  A change of player will likely make a bigger difference to there defensive performance depending on there attributes.

Whilst you can tell your team to focus on playing behind opponents, how many teams give you space by pushing up? How does your defensive plan help/hinder this? If they do push up, how do you transition, does it allow teams to get back and organized?

[BigV]

6 hours ago, denen123 said:

Not an expert, but if I'm your opponents I'll target your left area. "Look for overlap" increases the mentality of your Fullbacks coupled with An aggressive winger is dangerous. Cover- stopper really does nothing to mitigate how aggressive that defence is. Feel sorry for your DLPd against top teams. Also, if it's an overlapping/underlapping tactic, why not get a good runner? Maybe Mez/CMa? & Thats just on the overview. Intricate things like your TI combination + PI's are a bit confusing. Maybe start with as little as possible in terms of instructions.

I used wing backs support but I find a more attacking role for full back covers more defensively and alot more crosses going forward where about 10% come off from like 10+. Barely anyone uses wingers from the AI that are top 6 or even 7 with the exception of everton. CD both on defense keep a line and more or less keep things tight (manolas and bailly both strong, quick, can head and have great mental stats). I've tried matic in deep lying but hes like he is in reality slow and gets caught often. Opted for herrera and during pre season he was really good but I still feel for the prem he'd struggle as you said against top teams. I tried mezzala with pogba, herrera and fred and a few times with andreas pereira but didn't like what I was seeing at all cause the inside forwards push them aside and leave gaps wildly open. I've never tried CM on attack and will try for either pogba and fred but it really annoys me when they are "incompetent" at the role when they can really do it tactically and attribute wise anyway. I assume pass into space is find gaps in mid or attack /hit it wide to run past the defensive line? How are they confusing? I'll give it a try thanks.

5 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I think you've setup with too much focus on the two FB-A. Look for overlap will hold up the ball, combined with mentality, exploit flank and higher tempo with a high press.

2 of your 3 attack duties are the FBs. 2 of the 3 midfielders are playmakers so spend more time behind the ball or moving deep to collect. But then you've focused the team more on pass into space, who's going to keep up and support them so they're not isolated?

The best way to understand roles is to try them and spend as long as you can watching what they do and how it differs from other roles.

DM-D doesn't really provide more cover than DLP-D, they differ more with the ball than without it.  A change of player will likely make a bigger difference to there defensive performance depending on there attributes.

Whilst you can tell your team to focus on playing behind opponents, how many teams give you space by pushing up? How does your defensive plan help/hinder this? If they do push up, how do you transition, does it allow teams to get back and organized?

Like I said wingbacks on support barely crossed or even when they did it was once or twice when they did which was poor and used to get hit on counter a lot because they pushed up far too much, as for full back support it's useless for a 3 man mid because they sit so far back they might as well play defensive which goes against what I want. So maybe a deep lying defend/support in terms of next to pogba and put him as an attack on familiar roles? I've always thought pass into space is finding space inbetween the lines of either the mid and defence like pockets of space or hitting it behind the lines so fast players like rashford/lingard/ lukaku can get beyond them and score? I've always thought the BBM likes to roam so they're always available for passing options deep and higher up so theoretically they'd be useful along side playmakers and the highlighted tackling attribute would show they'd press and get the ball back inbetween the defensive and attacking line almost like a ball winner but less aggressive. I had bentacur, weigl on previous saves and they fit in quite well but was evident that they were weak in controlling and keeping the game running. That's a good point I never really considered the defensive line and attacking line because usually i'd stay balanced but i've been told to use a higher line by other people and ass man and other coaches even some defensive ones. I've always used countering and counter pressing which worked well against most teams but never really seem to work as I hoped on a general basis, as for regrouping it did a lot more but hinders attack so it's a lot of switch but im going back to counter pressing. I think there's a problem with DM's pressing on counter pressing even if they "defend" or want them to sit back and screen the defence, Almost goes into a 4-3-3 flat rather than a 4-1-2-3. 

[summatsupeer]

3 minutes ago, BigV said:

Like I said wingbacks on support barely crossed or even when they did it was once or twice when they did which was poor and used to get hit on counter a lot because they pushed up far too much

2xWB-S caused you to get hit on the counter more than using 2xFB-A?  If wanted the WB-S to cross earlier and/or more often you can use the TI and/or PI for that.  Could also have the FBs setup differently to add variety. Beware the Moyes utd style!  

3 minutes ago, BigV said:

, as for full back support it's useless for a 3 man mid because they sit so far back they might as well play defensive which goes against what I want.

Yeah FB-S won't really get forward until the ball is in the final third when its safe to do so.

3 minutes ago, BigV said:

So maybe a deep lying defend/support in terms of next to pogba and put him as an attack on familiar roles?

Don't just put players on familiar roles, the roles need to combine well and fit your overall system.

3 minutes ago, BigV said:

I've always thought pass into space is finding space inbetween the lines of either the mid and defence like pockets of space or hitting it behind the lines so fast players like rashford/lingard/ lukaku can get beyond them and score?

Yes its a through ball to run on to.  If there's no space in the middle or behind a defence because you've allowed them to drop and/or pinned them in and/or they're really defensive against you cos your utd, where are they going to be played?   Ideally yes its for the forward to run onto and score, but for him to control the ball, then dribble and run away from a defence and then get a 1v1 shot off takes specific attributes, even then sometimes a simple cross, pull back or pass across the goal to a player in a better position should be available.

3 minutes ago, BigV said:

I've always thought the BBM likes to roam so they're always available for passing options deep and higher up so theoretically they'd be useful along side playmakers and the highlighted tackling attribute would show they'd press and get the ball back inbetween the defensive and attacking line almost like a ball winner but less aggressive.

Your not wrong, but a BBM is still a support player so when your transitioning out of defence, he will balance the risks he takes getting in front of the ball.  It depends on the overall risk taking and the defensive cover he has, the further up the field the less of a risk it will become.  I would use the role (and duty) descriptions to tell you what they do rather than the attributes.  TBH I find them a bit strange, the BWM-S doesn't show Tackling as a highlight important attributes for a player whose told to tackle hard?!?

3 minutes ago, BigV said:

I had bentacur, weigl on previous saves and they fit in quite well but was evident that they were weak in controlling and keeping the game running. That's a good point I never really considered the defensive line and attacking line because usually i'd stay balanced but i've been told to use a higher line by other people and ass man and other coaches even some defensive ones.

The games ass man / coach advice will be statistic driven. For example they might tell you to play more direct because the direct passes you've tried have a good success rate.  Just because statistics tell us most goals are scored with few touches, doesn't mean you should play to get the ball to goal with as few touches as possible like Allardyce.  Correlation != Causation.  I switch that advice off personally, but if you want them to advise I would just use them to point you into where to investigate and make your own decision rather than blinding following them.

3 minutes ago, BigV said:

I've always used countering and counter pressing which worked well against most teams but never really seem to work as I hoped on a general basis, as for regrouping it did a lot more but hinders attack so it's a lot of switch but im going back to counter pressing. I think there's a problem with DM's pressing on counter pressing even if they "defend" or want them to sit back and screen the defence, Almost goes into a 4-3-3 flat rather than a 4-1-2-3. 

The arrows show who will counter press and that includes DMs in a 4141 DM Wide.  Even if not counter pressing, if you want them to sit more consider the role you've given as some will sit more than others, even if both are on Defend duty.  Plus the players attributes will play a part, especially Aggression.

[BigV]

30 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

2xWB-S caused you to get hit on the counter more than using 2xFB-A?  If wanted the WB-S to cross earlier and/or more often you can use the TI and/or PI for that.  Could also have the FBs setup differently to add variety. Beware the Moyes utd style!  

Yeah which is weird but i've seen a few people say the wingback/full back roles aren't perfect what people want, but i would expect it because full back would suggest a more defense minded player than wingback in terms of role but say for attacking to support on wingback, a wingback acts like a winger just more defensive than a winger where they're generally good as passing and off the ball where as full backs focus on getting to byline crossing and in possession letting the cms and attackers do the rest. 

30 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

TBH I find them a bit strange, the BWM-S doesn't show Tackling as a highlight important attributes for a player whose told to tackle hard?!?

BBM is lightly highlighted so a secondary role compared to a BWM that is primarily is what I meant to say sorry. BBM sit inbetween defensive line and attacking line which is somewhat wary as AP support does that just that they don't tackle. I would expect them to be deeper than AP and just above the DM the way and position the formation shows realistically. 

Cheers for the advice, ill check and switch some things, appreciate it. 

[bar333]

I'll point out from my personal experience with the same fullback dilemma - I've found FB-A to be more attacking than a WB-S. These really are two role\duty combos where it's difficult to figure out what the difference is beyond the hardcoded TI's (of which there are very few, and one is the same), but I think the individual mentality dominates all else and from my experience the FB-A starts bombing up earlier than a WB-S. Fullback duties in general I feel are really bloated, too many role\duty combinations where the differences are difficult to tell.

[Experienced Defender]

If I managed Man Utd and had Lukaku as the lone striker, I'd look to make the most of him. Now, in this particular system you are using (4123dm wide), I'd probably try him as an attacking target man. And given that you tend to play with very attacking fullbacks on both sides, I'd opt for a half-back in DM. All in all, my setup of roles and duties would be like this:

TMatt

IFsu                               Watt

DLPsu    MEZsu

HB

FBatt    CDde    CDco     WBsu

Of course, in tougher games it would look a bit more conservative.

BTW, definitely wouldn't use most of the team instructions you are using, but that's a separate topic.

 

[summatsupeer]

I suppose I should share my current utd save tactic since its 4141 DM Wide. 

I score a mix of goals, direct early balls, through balls from middle third into final third, pull backs, crosses etc against all teams.  Against defensive teams I tend to see us create space around the edge of the box with simple passes switching play from flanks to inside with passes to feet for a shot inside the box.  Once teams start chasing we can exploit behind them easier without changing anything.

Spoiler

GK: SK-D/S (De Gea)

DR: WB-S (Valencia / Dalot)

DCR: DC-D (Bailly / Jones / Smalling)

DCL: BPD-D (Lindelof / Rojo)

DL: WB-S (Shaw / Young)

DMC: DM-D (Matic / Herrera / Fellaini / Jones)

MCR: MEZ-S (Fred / Herrera / Pereira / Fellaini)

MCL: AP-A (Pogba / Fred / Pereira)

AMR: W-S (Lingard / Sanchez) 

AML: IF-A (Martial / Sanchez)

ST: PF-A (Rashford / Lukaku / Sanchez)

Mentality: Positive

In Possession: Play Out Of Defence, Work Ball Into Box, Be More Expressive

In Transition: Counter Attack, Distribute Quickly, Take Short Kicks

Out of Possession: Lower Line of Engagement, Use Offside Trap, More Urgent, Get Stuck In

No PIs or OIs.

 

Transfers?  Main upgrade would be the MEZ-S like Sergej M-S (smart final third player with good physicals + work rate), Freds not really good enough to be starter. Second upgrade is W-S with someone like Pulisic (quick player without traits to come inside).  Mata doesn't fit into this tactic sadly.  Season after LB + RB since Valencia+Youngs legs will be going plus maybe a DMC.

[BigV]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If I managed Man Utd and had Lukaku as the lone striker, I'd look to make the most of him. Now, in this particular system you are using (4123dm wide), I'd probably try him as an attacking target man. And given that you tend to play with very attacking fullbacks on both sides, I'd opt for a half-back in DM. All in all, my setup of roles and duties would be like this:

TMatt

IFsu                               Watt

DLPsu    MEZsu

HB

FBatt    CDde    CDco     WBsu

Of course, in tougher games it would look a bit more conservative.

BTW, definitely wouldn't use most of the team instructions you are using, but that's a separate topic.

 

Tried a lot of target manning with him and barely works alone but with a 2 man attack works well (my new 3rd formation of 442 wing play). I'v reverted back to wing back support simply for the reasons of better build up play and my wing backs are more or less far too technical for a fullback role in my eyes. I've solidified my DM as deep lying by moving the attacking line (out of possession) to standard instead of high and has worked well at the expense of possession so its almost like risky countering with positive fluid play which isn't what im going for but if it works, it works and looks great on the eye. Alot of people have said the instructions are ishy but each to their own I think in however each player tries to embed into their teams,, but appreciate the advice and help. 

 

4 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I suppose I should share my current utd save tactic since its 4141 DM Wide. 

I score a mix of goals, direct early balls, through balls from middle third into final third, pull backs, crosses etc against all teams.  Against defensive teams I tend to see us create space around the edge of the box with simple passes switching play from flanks to inside with passes to feet for a shot inside the box.  Once teams start chasing we can exploit behind them easier without changing anything.

  Reveal hidden contents

GK: SK-D/S (De Gea)

DR: WB-S (Valencia / Dalot)

DCR: DC-D (Bailly / Jones / Smalling)

DCL: BPD-D (Lindelof / Rojo)

DL: WB-S (Shaw / Young)

DMC: DM-D (Matic / Herrera / Fellaini / Jones)

MCR: MEZ-S (Fred / Herrera / Pereira / Fellaini)

MCL: AP-A (Pogba / Fred / Pereira)

AMR: W-S (Lingard / Sanchez) 

AML: IF-A (Martial / Sanchez)

ST: PF-A (Rashford / Lukaku / Sanchez)

Mentality: Positive

In Possession: Play Out Of Defence, Work Ball Into Box, Be More Expressive

In Transition: Counter Attack, Distribute Quickly, Take Short Kicks

Out of Possession: Lower Line of Engagement, Use Offside Trap, More Urgent, Get Stuck In

No PIs or OIs.

 

Transfers?  Main upgrade would be the MEZ-S like Sergej M-S (smart final third player with good physicals + work rate), Freds not really good enough to be starter. Second upgrade is W-S with someone like Pulisic (quick player without traits to come inside).  Mata doesn't fit into this tactic sadly.  Season after LB + RB since Valencia+Youngs legs will be going plus maybe a DMC.

 As I said to the guy above, I've really found a solid way of winning now, maybe early days in december still but won almost every game and saw improvements my previous tactics hindered. I dropped the attacking line to standard which brought my mid to stay compact then to press rather pressing so high up that the long balls would ruin me. It lets teams build from the back but once they hit the "final third line" my players go 1v1 on pressing, sometimes 2v1 which annoys me but reality is it happens. So when I get the ball back either deep or high up, my front 3 run at teams/ thread through long or through balls. In the midst of this i've lost possession but still come out on top of making things count, e.g. key passes, CCC, and shots on target etc. I've more or less gone from a risky pep way to a classic fergi counter or now known as countering "ole gunnar solskjaer" way .  Tbh if  there was a way i'd try emulating how united played against cardiff, pressing/passing/one touch football/ quick tempo (which fm lacks without the "fluid" scale)/ passing into space. 

I've noticed that Ball winner for herrera is great for big games (maybe on the cards for a full role spot) and BBM for home games and weaker away/some big games works well, playing the ball deeper where players are near allow me to threat balls quite a lot from mata, pogba and herrera even as a BWM. Noticed they've improved passing ranges and breaking lines to wide players who usually cut in. Really impressed and looks good on the eye, Appreciate the help guys.