Creating chances for a striker in a 4231

[TheJanitor]

I'm playing as Liverpool at the moment and I need some help getting the best out of Mo Salah upfront. I'm simply struggling to create good chances for him.

This is my tactic and preferred line-up:

I used the default Gegenpressing instructions for a while, but the removed the high defensive line and line of engagement, to prevent compressing space in the final third. It looks like it working slightly better, but I'm still not creating enough chances for him.

How can I improve chance creation for Salah?

[dcaine100]

4-2-3-1 is my favourite formation, only thing ive noticed about yours is a lack of width, try changing Mane to a winger attack or putting Shaqiri down the left as a winger, crossing is very important in FM.

[Experienced Defender]

Maybe to try Mo as a trequartista, so that he can have complete freedom up front, both in terms of movement and "ball management". And agree with dcaine100 on Mane as the RW on attack in this particular system (or him instead of Keita as IFsu on the left). 

However, your team instructions may also be problematic in the sense of causing players to perform under expectations.

[summatsupeer]

Narrower with two IF and a AP is a lot of players looking to use the same areas before the BBM even joins in.

Also consider the role you've given salah, he's told to run channels and roam so moving away from goal scoring areas.

[Grokaer]

If you changed the Keita role from Inside Forward (support) to Winger (support) you should get more width and attacking variety. This tweak would still complement your choice of wingback roles, but your Attacking Midfielder / Striker roles may need tweaking.  For example, with the Striker role, one thing to consider is that with the Inside Forward (attack) coming in from right - presumably to be a goal threat - he needs to be moving into space rather than into teammates. Switching your striker role to a Deep Lying Forward (attack) would be one way of achieving this, particularly if you want to keep your striker on an attacking duty. 

It may be worthwhile simplifying your team instructions also to allow you to build from the ground up based on the philosophy you are trying to implement. That way it's easier to identify why something is/isn't working. Looking at your tactic, it seems like you are going for building from the back when you have the ball and pressing intensely to win the ball back when you don't have the ball.

When you watch your matches -

• are you able to successfully build from the back often or does it seem you are losing possession and/or being pressed too quickly? Perhaps looking at your attacking width (this would add more effect to your IFs to Ws role change if you went with that) and tempo may increase the likelihood of you successfully bringing the ball out of defence more consistently and having a touch more space to play in.
• where are you winning the ball back on the pitch - are you winning the ball in an advanced enough position to launch quick counter attacks - similar tweaks to both the line of engagement and defensive line could help if you have spot an issue here.

one last point - 'Pass into Space' is more effective when being pressed otherwise there's no space to pass into. If you are playing as a top team and most of your opponents are sitting back against you, the pass into space instruction is probably not helping you a great deal.

[yonko]

If you want to have Salah focus on scoring goals then change his role to AF-A or Poacher. Then have Mane as Winger-Support on the right. Firmino is not quite the playmaker IMO so I would just have him as AM-S - he will still create but also be a goal threat and distract defenders off of Salah.

I see what you're trying to do with Keita there. Copying how Klopp has switched it up lately. I think he's fine as IF-S or you can try him as AP-S so he comes inside more and leaves space for Robo down the left. Another way might be to pull him back to MCL and use him as MEZ. I think Klopp's new tactic is a bit lopsided/assymetric in reality. 

[TheJanitor]

Thanks for all the replies!

On 25/12/2018 at 20:41, Grokaer said:

one last point - 'Pass into Space' is more effective when being pressed otherwise there's no space to pass into. If you are playing as a top team and most of your opponents are sitting back against you, the pass into space instruction is probably not helping you a great deal.

1

You made a lot of good points that I will consider, but I have a question about this specific point. When I instruct my players to pass into space, and there is few or none available, surely they will just recycle possession until they find it? What is the downside of using this shout as long as you have players capable of using space as Liverpool do?

15 hours ago, yonko said:

If you want to have Salah focus on scoring goals then change his role to AF-A or Poacher. Then have Mane as Winger-Support on the right. Firmino is not quite the playmaker IMO so I would just have him as AM-S - he will still create but also be a goal threat and distract defenders off of Salah.

I see what you're trying to do with Keita there. Copying how Klopp has switched it up lately. I think he's fine as IF-S or you can try him as AP-S so he comes inside more and leaves space for Robo down the left. Another way might be to pull him back to MCL and use him as MEZ. I think Klopp's new tactic is a bit lopsided/assymetric in reality. 

 

I see you saw through my charade. Yes, this has been inspired by real-life events, but also because I think that in 4-2-3-1, the central two should be more about controlling play, while Keita main strength, in my opinion, is to link up between the midfield and the attack, which is why I think he is at his best in this role. I think your suggestion about playing him at MCL is probably closer to real-life, however, I like to use default formations, so I will pass on this for now.

This is my formation now:

We played 3 matches:

vs. Atletico Madrid in the knockouts of the CL - won 2-0 - Salah had 0 shots on goal

vs. Manchester United in the final of the League Cup - won on pens - Salah had 3 shots on goal

vs. Huddersfield in the Premier League - won 3-1 - Salah had 5 shots on goal (including a pen)

I'm clearly not doing a good job creating chances for him, and whatever chances I do create are of poor quality.

 

I'm not very good at analyzing play. What do you think may cause this?

 

[Siven]

Could also just be the match engine, this years seems to lack movement from forwards which is reducing chances for them.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, TheJanitor said:

We played 3 matches:

vs. Atletico Madrid in the knockouts of the CL - won 2-0 - Salah had 0 shots on goal

vs. Manchester United in the final of the League Cup - won on pens - Salah had 3 shots on goal

vs. Huddersfield in the Premier League - won 3-1 - Salah had 5 shots on goal (including a pen)

I'm clearly not doing a good job creating chances for him, and whatever chances I do create are of poor quality.

 

I'm not very good at analyzing play. What do you think may cause this?

I think the "extremely high tempo" and Mo's role (AF) are two major problems in your tactic at the moment. For now just reduce tempo a notch to see if anything has significantly changed in Mo's performance, and if not - then consider changing his role as well (but not duty).

[yonko]

3 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

I see you saw through my charade. Yes, this has been inspired by real-life events, but also because I think that in 4-2-3-1, the central two should be more about controlling play, while Keita main strength, in my opinion, is to link up between the midfield and the attack, which is why I think he is at his best in this role. I think your suggestion about playing him at MCL is probably closer to real-life, however, I like to use default formations, so I will pass on this for now.

This is my formation now:

We played 3 matches:

vs. Atletico Madrid in the knockouts of the CL - won 2-0 - Salah had 0 shots on goal

vs. Manchester United in the final of the League Cup - won on pens - Salah had 3 shots on goal

vs. Huddersfield in the Premier League - won 3-1 - Salah had 5 shots on goal (including a pen)

I'm clearly not doing a good job creating chances for him, and whatever chances I do create are of poor quality.

 

I'm not very good at analyzing play. What do you think may cause this?

 

I wouldn't call it "charade". I just recognized that you want to replicate Klopp's current tactic somewhat or at least you're drawing inspiration from it.

I think in general there are clearly issues with the ME and attacking players in the final third this year. I'm personally very unhappy about it so I haven't spent too much time playing or trying to find out tactical solutions to overcome ME flaws.

For the most part the roles and duties make sense to me. You just need to see why supporting players do not find Salah and feed him the ball. Is it his movement/positioning? Does he get caught offside too much for example? I know he has PPM to break the offside trap, so maybe his teammates do not find him quick enough or teams are sitting too deep and narrow preventing passes/crosses to him. Is Firmino too far from him? AP-S is probably the deepest role for AM, plus the player has "comes deep" PPM if I'm not mistaken. So maybe you can play Firmino as AM-A and get him even closer to Salah.

[Rashidi]

12 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Thanks for all the replies!

You made a lot of good points that I will consider, but I have a question about this specific point. When I instruct my players to pass into space, and there is few or none available, surely they will just recycle possession until they find it? What is the downside of using this shout as long as you have players capable of using space as Liverpool do?

 

I see you saw through my charade. Yes, this has been inspired by real-life events, but also because I think that in 4-2-3-1, the central two should be more about controlling play, while Keita main strength, in my opinion, is to link up between the midfield and the attack, which is why I think he is at his best in this role. I think your suggestion about playing him at MCL is probably closer to real-life, however, I like to use default formations, so I will pass on this for now.

This is my formation now:

We played 3 matches:

vs. Atletico Madrid in the knockouts of the CL - won 2-0 - Salah had 0 shots on goal

vs. Manchester United in the final of the League Cup - won on pens - Salah had 3 shots on goal

vs. Huddersfield in the Premier League - won 3-1 - Salah had 5 shots on goal (including a pen)

I'm clearly not doing a good job creating chances for him, and whatever chances I do create are of poor quality.

 

I'm not very good at analyzing play. What do you think may cause this?

 

You got to start taking a closer look at your transitions, look at the shots he takes in a match, check his passes received and check the kind of movement he is making. I have been using a 4231 rather successfully on my Kop Diaries save, but I tend to play my system a bit differently. If you look at how Liverpool actually play, you will see that Klopp moves Salah around a fair bit. In some games he is an out and out striker in other games where his pace is needed down the flanks he moves him out and pulls Shaq and Firmino inside. You will also note that Mane is usually played more like a PM and is given license to drift into the middle in some games and in others he is told to stay wide. 

Liverpool's system is adaptable which is a lot different from last year. In terms of chances wasted in front he does seem to lead the league at the moment if you use xG analysis. With the current system that Liverpool use, there are times when they need goals from players outside the front 3, and they have improved their set piece routines as well this year. If you want to learn how to analyse the quality of their chances, then learn how to use the Analysis tab feature and drill into the shots themselves to figure out what kind of chances you are creating. I did a recent video on this as well and will be expanding on the video in the next few weeks.

My Liverpool system is adaptable too, in a recent match I played against a very defensive Huddersfield side who refused to come out in the first half. They had 0 shots and 0 possession in my half. We went camping, in the second half I had to get more midfielders into the box, so I went to overload them freeing up deliveries from the right which actually led to our first goal, and then the deluge began,

[Grokaer]

19 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

You made a lot of good points that I will consider, but I have a question about this specific point. When I instruct my players to pass into space, and there is few or none available, surely they will just recycle possession until they find it? What is the downside of using this shout as long as you have players capable of using space as Liverpool do?

I like to keep my player's options open from a creative point of view. If you don't tick 'Pass into Space', players in possession will still consider 'Passing into Space' as an option alongside the other creative options open to them whereas if I tick 'Pass into Space' then players will be continuously looking to 'Pass into Space' regardless of whether the space is there or not and will risk losing control of the football.

 

 

 

[melogroovy]

To add to what others have said...lower your tempo.  Give Salah a chance to work his magic off the ball.  Your tempo is set very high and it doesn't give him a chance to find space, IMO.

[Robson 07]

On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 13:36, dcaine100 said:

4-2-3-1 is my favourite formation

 It absolutely isn't mine.  I know a ton of successful tactics exist on various FM versions but I always struggle balancing it.  Spend ages making sure its not easy to counter and then realise you've no space left to play in. 

[11v11]

deep lying play maker and advance playmaker....you choose one and change the role of the other....probably your amc should get in there and assist scoring goals rather than play making

[dcaine100]

On 28/12/2018 at 05:12, Robson 07 said:

 It absolutely isn't mine.  I know a ton of successful tactics exist on various FM versions but I always struggle balancing it.  Spend ages making sure its not easy to counter and then realise you've no space left to play in. 

It can be a very balanced and defensively strong formation, the key is the 2 central mids who should both be good defensively (tackling, marking and postioning) I have Amadou Diawara (BWM Def) and Torreira (CM Sup).

The 2 central mids shouldnt have the offensive PPMs, Gets Fwd whenever possible or gets into opposition area as you want them to hold their postion in the centre of mid and let the front 4 do the attacking.