...Anyone else just too successful?

[phnompenhandy]

2 hours ago, johnsie said:

How have some of you guys been around here for over a decade and not gotten bored?

tl;dr, so apologies if this has been said.

 

Very simply, having played since the previous millennium and been a member of this forum since forever, I never to go good players guide or download tactics forums. I always play as a lower league manager with additional challenges or restrictions - at the moment it's an academy challenge where all my players came through my non-league club's academy. I nurture those kids and really get to know them, and I create a detailed narrative around my career, checking my non-league opponents on google, learning about hem, adding their grounds and villages to my graphics folders. Eking out a 1-0 or a 0-0 against a superior opponent is where I get my thrills. In over 20 years I've never made it to any nation's top flight. Maybe one year I will but it's never easy. That's why I never get bored.

[johnsie]

What's your favorite team in real life?

[sporadicsmiles]

And as expected, I created someone who was angry at what I wrote. I am not really going to get involved in a discussion on this. I have said my part. I do want to reiterate that the examples I give are only that. Examples. I did put that I was not saying any particular user was doing any particular thing. Myself included, as it happens. For example, I do not adhere to any of the stereotypes that I put. Personally, I prefer to play using people my scouts give me reports on (and the chief scout runs the scouting, it is his job). I will supplement this with players I see playing against me who look interesting, or players performing particularly well when I look around leagues. So let's not get personal without the facts (or in general, everyone can play how they want).

In the end, it is all opinion. I do not think anyone here would deny that improvements in the AI would be more than welcome. However, there will always be limitations, since AI is not as advanced as players want it to be. And what AI is created as to be able to run on every machine equally. I still stand by the fact that the game is as hard as you make it.

[johnsie]

The point is what you described isn't the issue, and significantly improving things isn't unreasonable or unlikely as you conveyed. I don't know what you expected. The limitations are beside the point, I think your belief that improving the AI is also limited by people's computers is another excuse, and the game being as hard as you make it is trite. To most people "the game being as hard as you make it", especially in light of the Lincoln City example suggesting how far you need to go beyond it, is cutting your nose off to spite your face, and I think self-respecting developers would be disappointed by seeing their game reduced to players flaying themselves in order to experience challenge. It's a bizarre conversation to have. Most people would want to be challenged playing the teams they want to play (most people that might play the game are football fans, are they not?) trying their best, within bounds of fairness, to be successful. When this is the diametric opposite of what you're implying there's a big problem. Somewhere along the way the plot was lost.

[optimusprimal82]

Interesting thread and read. Bit of a never-ending dilemma too if you're SI.

Fwiw, I'd love the game to become harder and more strategic; I'm flying through the divisions on an FC United save and it just has such an air of inevitability about it that my desire to carry on has waned to an incredible degree.

On the other hand, they (SI) may see this thread and note people saying the game is too easy and consider making some/all/any of the improvements mentioned. They could just as easily read one of the other threads on the page/head across to the tactics forum and see the number of people complaining that the game is too hard, unfair or otherwise and nerf it?

 

So many people approach and play the game in such different ways that pleasing everyone is just not going to happen - it's widespread appeal unfortunately brings with it widespread limitation. The concession they made by bringing  FM Touch into the world was both surprising and a great thing to see, as obviously they recognised the diversity within the fanbase and moved to cater for it, but we'd need maybe five versions in order to satisfy the majority of people and give them exactly what they want? Does that mean they shouldn't even try? No, of course not, don't be silly!

 

There are two main areas I reckon that need the most attention:

Squad Management: I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of the comments here already. It's been dodgy for a long, long time and 19 is no exception (I can't believe on 19 how often the English top 6 transfer players between each other as an easy example?). Either they don't renew contracts properly, they keep players until they're fifty or buy players whose reputation/value is sky high regardless of who they already have on the team - although part of me wonders if that sometimes is due to the AI manager playing a specific tactic and the new signing would fit the specific position, and more importantly role much better? If an AI manager that likes wingers inherits a squad with wide players more suited to playing Inside forward, is it predisposed to retrain the existing players or look for better rated players in that role (much like you or I might)? Is it a flaw of the AI (and in some ways an accurate replication of real life) that the new manager comes in with a set formation/way of playing and will try and buy players that numerically fit that rather than trying to make the best with what he's got? Does said manager then fail as the expectations are sky high and they don't get enough time to get 5-star options for each of the roles (Guardiola has been sacked within 2 seasons in every single save I've played on 19 so far)? Does this differ in game between the managers? Are there stubborn ones like Mourinho/Wenger who rigidly only buy/like specific mentalities/types, or are they all coded the same to utilise a preferred formation and buy players that fit it/go into a club and use the most appropriate formation for the players there, buying improvements as and where they can? I'd like to think it's more elegant and dynamic than that but sim up to 10 seasons in and look at the sorry state of the top clubs and I'm not so sure?

The match engine: Ah, everyone's favourite scapegoat. Ask ten people what direction they'd take the match engine in and you'd likely get ten different answers. In a lot of ways I'm in awe of the ME - because let's face it, it can't be easy to code - and it's great to have seen it grow from the early FM days, however whilst I think it's admirable and it's pursuit of realism is impressive, its can also be the game's biggest weakness and the single greatest barrier to entry for those new to the series or who just want to blast through a season or two. It's great for those who want to get elbows deep into the strategy - and I was/am one of you - but for those who'd like to download a reasonable tactic, build a team and have moderate success, it's a mountain of frustration that they just find impossible to read/overcome. The in-game 'mentality' has become such a prevalent part now that for many who don't want to micro-manage each game, it's a complete mystery when they continually leak goals as Chelsea/Liverpool etc. I had thought with the introduction of FM Touch that this would be addressed, with the full ME becoming a truly realistic sim that would require some serious tactical adjustments to take on, and the Touch version being more simplified/akin (albeit maybe a tad more difficult) to the old CM ME's (friend suggested the FM mobile ME is like that?), whereby tactics can be adjusted on the fly if wanted, or overcome with a decent 'plug n play' and players of sufficient quality. Unfortunately I feel like the way Touch has gone it's missed that point and gutted the more interesting stuff (at least for me) in terms of youth academies and squad dynamics, but kept the same in-depth match engine that so many people bounce off. I tried Touch and saw little reason to play it as the in-game is so similar it didn't seem to make all that much difference? 

Are we missing something and is the ME deliberately made more frustrating to cover up the difficulty shortfalls elsewhere - a very loose rubber banding per se to stop the human player getting too far ahead of the AI teams? I don't think that's the case personally but worth throwing the question out there anyway. As the AI games are parsed through the same ME, are the big teams there falling foul of similar issues to human players? Late comebacks that take a good deal of know-how to spot and shutdown? Why can't Guardiola/Mourinho do that if so? Or are they genuinely dropping points because the AI managers aren't good enough?

 

I've already written about 15 times more than I was anticipating so I'll leave with one final thought and that's the attributes themselves. They've been capped at 20 for so long, changing them would no doubt require some major rebuilding (and likely may not even be necessary), but is there enough variance between the numbers to make enough of a difference? Could an increase be used to further differentiate star players - and more importantly managers - and truly make someone like Benitez/Guardiola/Klopp a force to play against? Would increasing the gap make the game even easier for human players, or would it make the top teams tougher to beat as their 39/40 striker is truly lethal vs your 28/40 regen who likes the odd toe poke (as opposed to the 19/20 vs 14/20 etc)? Greater variance in stats means greater variance in outcomes is all i'm suggesting, as for too long it's been largely predictable and repetitive come matchday. Admittedly increasing stats would make it harder to balance - something the ME has big problems with already, especially between patches - but it could do wonders for variety, and admittedly, also could not 

Edit: just to add, increased attributes can/could also lead to greater confusion too - what’s the real difference between a 32 & 37 etc. Greater the variance, greater the confusion etc.

[turnip]

30 minutes ago, optimusprimal82 said:

I've already written about 15 times more than I was anticipating so I'll leave with one final thought and that's the attributes themselves. They've been capped at 20 for so long, changing them would no doubt require some major rebuilding (and likely may not even be necessary), but is there enough variance between the numbers to make enough of a difference? Could an increase be used to further differentiate star players - and more importantly managers - and truly make someone like Benitez/Guardiola/Klopp a force to play against?

Attributes already go from 1-200, but the view is simplified to make it easier for people playing the game to 'read'. That's why you'll see a Red/Green arrow next to a player's attributes, but the number hasn't changed - it's an increment within 12 (e.g. 12.5-12.6).

The reason those managers do well is because they're good tacticians and can make use of good players (although I'll rate Guardiola behind Klopp and Benitez until he manages a team where he doesn't have massive piles of money to buy players with). 

[optimusprimal82]

2 minutes ago, turnip said:

Attributes already go from 1-200, but the view is simplified to make it easier for people playing the game to 'read'. That's why you'll see a Red/Green arrow next to a player's attributes, but the number hasn't changed - it's an increment within 12 (e.g. 12.5-12.6).

The reason those managers do well is because they're good tacticians and can make use of good players (although I'll rate Guardiola behind Klopp and Benitez until he manages a team where he doesn't have massive piles of money to buy players with). 

Ah ok thanks, didn’t know that - knew the ability/potential was out of 200, hadn’t realised the rest were/are!

[johnsie]

1 hour ago, optimusprimal82 said:

Squad Management: I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of the comments here already. It's been dodgy for a long, long time and 19 is no exception (I can't believe on 19 how often the English top 6 transfer players between each other as an easy example?). Either they don't renew contracts properly, they keep players until they're fifty or buy players whose reputation/value is sky high regardless of who they already have on the team - although part of me wonders if that sometimes is due to the AI manager playing a specific tactic and the new signing would fit the specific position, and more importantly role much better? If an AI manager that likes wingers inherits a squad with wide players more suited to playing Inside forward, is it predisposed to retrain the existing players or look for better rated players in that role (much like you or I might)? Is it a flaw of the AI (and in some ways an accurate replication of real life) that the new manager comes in with a set formation/way of playing and will try and buy players that numerically fit that rather than trying to make the best with what he's got? Does said manager then fail as the expectations are sky high and they don't get enough time to get 5-star options for each of the roles (Guardiola has been sacked within 2 seasons in every single save I've played on 19 so far)? Does this differ in game between the managers? Are there stubborn ones like Mourinho/Wenger who rigidly only buy/like specific mentalities/types, or are they all coded the same to utilise a preferred formation and buy players that fit it/go into a club and use the most appropriate formation for the players there, buying improvements as and where they can? I'd like to think it's more elegant and dynamic than that but sim up to 10 seasons in and look at the sorry state of the top clubs and I'm not so sure?

At least one person has claimed that clubs acquire players and barely use them and that they acquire players at already deep positions. The top club in my domestic league also tends to have its manager sacked probably every time, although it's my impression even based on my own performances that two matches per week can have a very detrimental effect on performance unless you rotate heavily. I hadn't noticed condition being too low. Board expectations can be problematic for human managers too, especially if bigger changes are made to the game, although perhaps expectations would turn out being more reasonable. Are managers sacked too quickly in FM? Anyway, frankly I don't see what really explains AI squads becoming bad over time but something definitely happens. You'd figure talent is at least refreshed. In FM14 I might've had a better young player at Levski Sofia than some of the aging bigger name players at European high end clubs who weren't even that old after 5-6 seasons. Given how much experience some of you have someone should be able to identify reasons.

I disagree on the ME, specifically about how deep the control you have as a manager is. To me it's the opposite, there aren't many options and your control is limited especially when factoring in your players. I can definitely see how it could be frustrating for people though, especially for very casual players who'd just like to breeze through things. Once you get something that works though, what do you have left to do? I should probably play in England for a while to have a more similar experience to others but given how things appear to be I lack the desire.

But yes, it seems like there is a wide variety of FM players and excluding groups isn't ideal.

[Svenc]

11 hours ago, johnsie said:

...So how about creating a mode for those of us who'd like to have some fun with a challenge, extract a sense of accomplishment, and feel like we're doing something worthwhile? This is also a backward mentality. You're imagining that progress cannot happen because people would complain. Which God created this forum and created the law that FM is one thing and one thing only? On what premise? Realism?

Revenue / commercial viability. I personally switched over to FM from simpler "buy players and win stuff" games (the majority of management games ever) because of the (comparably) added challenge a decade back. This still continues, whenever I still play (it's an on/off thing). However, whilst I personally applauded my first ever FM for making me slump to mid-table one early mid-season with Bayern Munich, just like van Gaal back then -- and that without doing anything "obvioiusly" stupid (to my eyes back then anyways) -- I also quickly discovered that for the majority of FM players the game seems to be about something else. Namely, much the same over the top power Winning fantasies inherent to any other old management game I quit. Actually, in lots of cases it was even more extreme ones, as on On The Ball on Amiga you couldn't ever consistently every Season outperform all squad and player ability, but actually had to "master" the game's Transfer markets etc. first (however simple they were). Mind, that's all viable preferences. Not my personal one though.

Btw, I think the game could provide an added challenge in the way that improved AI would be leveled out by optional assistants. Assistants are AI just as well. They would improve alongside to all AI. More importantly, they are a significant part of real football. They advice and even take over huge parts of the Job, depending on the manager. That's how I'd do it. The Question is, whether SI are and the majority of their players. I have my doubts though…

Things could be hella "worse" though, depending where your preferences are: Sega have just announced that the Sequel to the brilliantly flawed Alien:Isolation will be a bloody mobile game. The much talked about "frustration" Levels inherent to the original apparently didn't draw big enough a crowd to so risk a fully-fledged sequel; reportedly, the core Team at SI sister Studio Creative Assembly responsible for Alien have left the studio ages ago already. This is the age of instant gratification on any media. Game Over man, game over.  

 

5 hours ago, optimusprimal82 said:

As the AI games are parsed through the same ME, are the big teams there falling foul of similar issues to human players? 

Yes and evidently more so. Any edge is on the human player and always will be. Perception's that the ME may act as a "rubber band" may be amongst the reasons why SI may be shy to improve said AI too much. That means players feel the game wouldn't tread them fairly, and who would like that and keep buying? Often times such perceptions are even paradoxical, such when the user ridiculously outperforms what any AI would do with the same team/squad. For instance, take the much raged About "parking bus AI" (any release since forever). At the current Levels, AI "parks the bus" in fairly generic ways. It keeps Things compact in Possession and without. It keeps loads of Players behind the ball. It doesN't even much try anything but to frustrate their Opposition. On the Occasion it may still "luck" out and score a Goal/s (though usually AI Teams that do so most of the season have a miserably shot conversion in their Team Reports of ~5% if you take a look). Some AI defend off formations that plug the central of the pitch better. Some AI defend off formations that plug the flanks better. This isN't an "intelligent" decision. This is all based on the prefered formations they have edited in the db. What do you think were to happen if it would specifically plug the Zones it's being attacked through? Similar goes for attempts at "staging" Comebacks. AI may not Always sit there on a loss and do Nothing. However, the way it's staging Things is comparably "vanilla". 

[phnompenhandy]

6 hours ago, johnsie said:

What's your favorite team in real life?

Right now the team I manage, Little Oakley.

[DaveMac]

9 hours ago, turnip said:

(although I'll rate Guardiola behind Klopp and Benitez until he manages a team where he doesn't have massive piles of money to buy players with). 

Liverpool fan by chance?

[DaveMac]

9 hours ago, turnip said:

(although I'll rate Guardiola behind Klopp and Benitez until he manages a team where he doesn't have massive piles of money to buy players with). 

Liverpool fan by chance?

[johnsie]

9 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Right now the team I manage, Little Oakley.

So you're one of the people who should be content with FM.

Svenc, what I'm suggesting is that you do multiple modes or difficulties within the same game so people who just want to win can win and others who want more of a challenge can have that too without playing with Little Oakley and the additional restriction of only using players who come through Little Oakley's possibly non-existent youth academy, aka the streets. Like that's not what I pictured a football simulation to be. I also have no idea what you're suggesting with respect to assistant managers.

10 hours ago, Svenc said:

Things could be hella "worse" though, depending where your preferences are: Sega have just announced that the Sequel to the brilliantly flawed Alien:Isolation will be a bloody mobile game. The much talked about "frustration" Levels inherent to the original apparently didn't draw big enough a crowd to so risk a fully-fledged sequel; reportedly, the core Team at SI sister Studio Creative Assembly responsible for Alien have left the studio ages ago already. This is the age of instant gratification on any media. Game Over man, game over.  

I only watched Alien: Isolation on Twitch and streamers didn't seem to have much problem with it. I don't disagree with the start of that person's post. If the Alien walks out of the room on one side and essentially teleports in front of you on the other side that's questionable design. But yes, that person might just suck. I've no idea what happened here but did hear about the mobile game, mobile games being anathema to gamers at the moment due to the entirely self-inflicted Diablo Immortal fiasco. What in the hell is happening at Blizzard I've no idea, but how you could be distracted enough to present that thing at Blizzcon I've no idea. I think Blizzcon as an event is just in an awkward spot nowadays. I would be absolutely amazed if that game really does end up being the mobile Diablo knockoff of the same Chinese company they partnered with. It would be too funny, and God forbid they try to make pay to win money too. Casuals indeed. I don't think it's game over, just weird. We have to be patient. Reputations are starting to take serious licks and sooner or later someone will release a reasonable engaging game some of us are waiting for. Keep in mind the MOBAs and Starcraft did not succeed because they are thoroughly casual, to the contrary. I finally got Age of Wonders III and I'm having a pretty decent time with that game. Unfortunately Ubisoft has pulled off the feat of destroying Heroes of Might and Magic and the Civilization series disgusts me, and real time strategy games are dead at the moment, but even if it's a small or independent developer worthwhile games will come.

[Etebaer]

In Germany there is "Rocket Beans" Streaming FM2019 with 2 Guys each one managing a Team (HSV + St.Pauli).

The St.Pauli guy is on a losing streak and the HSV guy who is a famous tactic nerd named T.Escher struggles somewhat to stay on top of the 2.Bundesliga atm.

When you have little to no clue about the game and dont download stuff the game is pretty hard without having a World Class Team!

[Deisler26]

Dunno about too successful, but I'm currently creating a Dutch academy-only RKC Waalwijk side. Keeps me occupied for a good 10+ seasons every year.

[Svenc]

12 hours ago, Etebaer said:

In Germany there is "Rocket Beans" Streaming FM2019 with 2 Guys each one managing a Team (HSV + St.Pauli).

The St.Pauli guy is on a losing streak and the HSV guy who is a famous tactic nerd named T.Escher struggles somewhat to stay on top of the 2.Bundesliga atm.

When you have little to no clue about the game and dont download stuff the game is pretty hard without having a World Class Team!

A couple of Options.

 

1) Real world tactical "Knowledge" doesn't translate as well over into the game as SI intend it to (totally possible)
2) Translating real world tactical "Knowledge" into the game's UI isn't as easy as SI intend it to (totally Possible)
3) The game is also meant to be about player Quality, and with the exception of Köln, and perhaps Hamburg, the 2nd Bundesliga should be one of more most balanced leagues in the game, so in particular over but a couple weeks of a Season / or an indindiual Season in General, much goes. AI managed Hamburg aren't goingn to win the league in every save also, likewise, on any one run, AI managed St. Pauli may struggle far deeper.

Seeing one of the St. Pauli's guys Setups, which visibly does the same/similar things that costs the AI Points ever since I dunno at least FM 16, it may be a mix of those…. HOwever, since the tacitcal nerd also doesn't object l but argues he should Train his Forwards to work on their finishing, it's hard to tell. Tbf they're on key highlights and mostly on cams that are useless for anything much tactical. Btw, I'm meanwhile of the opinion that such an similar shouldn't be at all possible to put into the UI if the game were to simulate semi/Professional Management, imo. Actually, I'd overhaul the entire tactical experience into one that is less about possibly harmful and contradicting Micro tweaks, into one of sensible "holistical" decisions to be taken at hopefully the Right time... E.g. less tweaking of individual Player roles so that they all sit in the right space at the right time, and more generally Football decisioins. The tactical style Presets may be a starting point into such developments. It would Benefit both AI and that St. Pauli Player. On the flipside, it may generally big time level the playing fields.

I'd be really interested into a let's Play of Escher alone, where he sits down, and starts playing a bit more deeply, focused on his own Team rather than "rushing" through Things in a "hot seat" multiplayer session. 

[Etebaer]

Yeah, the point was to show that as example for Players who may or may not have deeper understanding of real world Football but not necessarily the game and how they struggle therefore...so naturaly they have a different perception of the difficulty of the game!

[johnsie]

Something else you may not know about me is that I don't watch football. I haven't for years. I watched the World Cup and was bored and disappointed, although by now I know to expect it. European club football can be more interesting (although I've seen some boring CL finals and perhaps a big game or two) but the only sport I've kept on watching somewhat is American football, specifically my local team. So I have no background knowledge. It's just not a complicated game and if you have enough patience watching at the least actual segments of matches you can make educated changes to your tactics. At this point I even keep my tactics rather bland, although, again, there's not that much you can do. But for example, if you're having trouble with very defensive AI play, set your side defenders to attack, move your pressure lines all the way up, play short passing and work the ball into the box. Any sort of direct play can be wasteful, there may be no space to pass into, and you need as many players forward as you can get. Something I haven't tried is playing narrow to perhaps help passing and possession, there being a hint for this.

However, if you do rush through the game even comprehensive highlights may be inadequate to give you a true impression of what is happening. Impatience rather than anything else may be what is bedeviling some players.

[Svenc]

13 hours ago, johnsie said:

So I have no background knowledge.

The game has Always kinda assumed you don't. You are ought to pick up some basics via playing, kinda. Hence, why fairly "common sense" is already being rewarded rather than anything "indepth".  To quote a former  mod: 
 

Quote

Apply some basic football concepts and you'll do well. Ensure these concepts suit the players in your squad and you'll do very well. Be proactive in your matches and you'll do very, very well. Apply some more sophisticated football concepts and do all of the above and you'll win everything.

The "you'll win everything" part may be a bit exaggerating of course. However, anything typically discussed in the tactical community is just another Bonus over the AI. Take some of the more recent "help" threads. They aren't actually About any Player underperforming. They are doing incredibly well (better than the AI would do with their Teams for the most part). They're About specific issues, such as a striker not being enough involved -- or About creating more open Play chances against the manyful AI who simply sit deep and shut up shop from start to finish. Now granted, you can do stuff that really really harms. I'd personally prefer the game would shift away from rewarding common sense and go away from such possibly "nonsensically/harmful" Micro tweaking, and to making sensible "Football decisions". For BOTH FM's Artificial Intelligence as well as the human Player/s.

In the long run, anyway.

[hogesar]

I think the beauty of this game, and it's still true in FM19, is that it's as difficult or easy as you want it to be.

If you want it to be easy choose a big team with a big budget, even use the editor, download a tactic from here and have some fast-paced fun.

If you want it to be difficult start low down in the football pyramid, even set yourself personal challenges and try to build from a very low starting point to long-term success.

Personally don't see the problem because it caters for most audiences bar maybe the complete extremes on either side.

For me, I support Norwich so always have a 'Norwich save'. If / When that gets too easy, I start another save low down the football pyramid. For me that's normally a localish side such as Kings Lynn. That provides longevity for me.

[Svenc]

The main issue I have with the Notion that starting lower down vs. higher up was a Level of difficulty (which SI have always promoted also, btw) is that:

That's not changing any difficulty. It's just stretching the save as you're dealing with the same AI wherever you go. Basically, once you had "mastered" the game, it's just an exercise in patience. Kind of like an MMORPG grind, where you are continously rewarded just for mashing the Buttons sticking around. Sure, a better Player with a bigger Edge over the AI will raise through the Tiers quicker on average -- and may also challenge for the titles quicker. However, if given enough grind time, you'd be just getting there. 

Plus naturally, if managing clubs with big Money was this easy (others tend to have loads of Money too), why is it that only the elite typically apply (and seldom last for centuries)?

However, I don't think anybody is ever fundamentally going to change SI's mind. It's worked out for them, after all -- and dedicated FM communities such as these represent but a fraction of FM's average/actual player base anyway. Whether they deem the game too hard, too easy or too purple.

[johnsie]

Not to mention denying management of teams you might be more interested in. So SI themselves explicitly espouse all of this stuff? Good God... who came up with these arguments in the first place? This might be one of those things you just leave alone and hope that in five years there might be a reasonable game. Can you imagine that out of all the competing things here SI and others have come to the conclusion that the most important and realistic thing is not having multiple difficulties? I don't think most of these people realize what reality is and how it would transform this game, the fact that the most unrealistic thing is the current state of the game, which goes back years! Perhaps the task of actually making this game much more realistic is beyond SI and they are just deflecting the topic, with others just being blissfully loyal to a game that fails to deliver on its professed goal. Maybe I took the wrong approach to this and brought up people's biases rather than the proper focus. I should've focused on realism and never mentioned the difficulties even though many people might be left behind. I wonder if the same people who currently argue that realism is paramount would've argued that FM is still a game and needs to be more inclusive albeit unrealistic.  I suppose that's just the nature of public forums.

[Mitja]

if the game wants to strive for realsim and advertise as such i can't take argument of playing in lower leagues seriously. playing with bigger clubs or in top leagues should be the far bigger challange since you're playing against top managers and players week after week. the only way to achieve it in a game like FM is to improve the AI. especially tactics and squad building. the ME should reflect player quality much more, i think these things got worse with 19 compared to fm17.  

i won't comment on squad bulding and transfer activity all i can say i don't remember when was the last time i played long term save (more than 3 seasons) and i can understand people who play lower laegues in regards to this. 

tactics wise i can't understand new changes, i remember in fm17 i was amazed with AI tactics and it took me some time to learn how to play and it was challenging. unfortunatly with fm19 tactics tried to be improved with ultra defensive AI but it only brought to light long term and well known issues when defensive mentality faces attacking,  which produce unrealistic looking football matches. such aproach enhanced many ME issues like reflecting player quality better or crossing issues, lack of quality movement and defending. matches that are played with normal AI aproach tactics and not extreme like when ultra defensive meets ultra attacking will produce far more realistic games and statistics. there will be far less crossing attempts and corners, games won't be one dimensional where one team has 30+ shots and the other 0 and so on.  many of tactical problems this game has are connected how mentality works and how AI will use it. and it afects game experience in unrealistic manner because better your team gets more defensive AI gets too.   

[sootstar07]

I'm not happy with lack of challenge. I played Benfica in Portugal. With beta version it was too easy like 40 shots against 1 or 2. When the game cames out it was perfect balanced, but after the last update wow!!! I won Real Madrid out 6-1. Won everything: Champions League, League, Cup and league cup. I feel i can sell all the players and promote kids and I'll win everything again. This game is like a kid toy: Press enter and smile. Sorry to tell you.

[johnsie]

These scorelines make me wonder. How far were you into the save when you beat Real Madrid 6-1? Mitja talks about how matches would be more realistic with less extreme AI mentalities and tactics but I'm not so sure. Two seasons in and I'm pummeling teams that are supposed to be competitive, winning by bigger margins than versus clearly inferior sides, including teams that should be better than mine. Playing at home especially I score 4+ goals and win in blowouts. Perhaps FM19 is experiencing a particularly bad problem?

[Just-Wool]

I'm currently struggling to get out of the championship, so it's not that easy. Not sure what the guy who took Lincoln to the premier league did in the Championship, but boy do I need a little bit of luck. Or a defence, or just generally the ability to hold on to a 2 goal lead really. We'll get there in the end, I'm sure but currently it's difficult. So not successful yet in so much as winning the premier league. I promoted Notts County to the Championship though, so that's good I suppose. Success is relative after all when you're outside the top 6 clubs.

[sootstar07]

20 minutos atrás, johnsie disse:

These scorelines make me wonder. How far were you into the save when you beat Real Madrid 6-1? Mitja talks about how matches would be more realistic with less extreme AI mentalities and tactics but I'm not so sure. Two seasons in and I'm pummeling teams that are supposed to be competitive, winning by bigger margins than versus clearly inferior sides, including teams that should be better than mine. Playing at home especially I score 4+ goals and win in blowouts. Perhaps FM19 is experiencing a particularly bad problem?

1st season. 5th game of Champions league group stage, 1st game of the last update.. No tactic change, nothing. A few subs a same mentality. And it is Win... Win.. Win... Champions League final against Bayern M. 3-0

[Mitja]

37 minutes ago, johnsie said:

These scorelines make me wonder. How far were you into the save when you beat Real Madrid 6-1? Mitja talks about how matches would be more realistic with less extreme AI mentalities and tactics but I'm not so sure. Two seasons in and I'm pummeling teams that are supposed to be competitive, winning by bigger margins than versus clearly inferior sides, including teams that should be better than mine. Playing at home especially I score 4+ goals and win in blowouts. Perhaps FM19 is experiencing a particularly bad problem?

yes i noticed that too, playing against better teams seems particulary easy in fm19. what i meant with extreme mentalities games, here's some good examples:

 

[Mitja]

or here:

 

[Svenc]

The "Tactical" Problems as of the actual difficulty are that, to simplify, the AI traditionally doesn't take a whole lot of context into account. .[That as is, aside of it ignoring "Team Sports common sense" imo on the Occasion...]

- To simplify, a) either AI starts a match, any match of the Season, with more expansive or defensive Football. This depends on the Opposition and to an extent, its attributes
- and b) switches Things around depending on where the match is headed, e.g. current scorelines

There's more, but what's actually going specifically on in any match -- a struggle to win the ball back, etc. that's never much been on the AI's Radar, or only to very limited extents.

Thus I'm not surprised that some find it easier to dismantle big Teams on the attack than to ship loads of Goals past anybody else shutting up shop. Here's why.

- the most extremely defensive tactics have had loads of Players on a defend / hold positioin / barely cross the half way line duty for like years. They are used very readily. They are so focused on keepingn Things tight / making it harder to score for the Opposition that they basically translate to : "We're not much even trying. We simply want to frustrate". FM 19 seems to have tightened up defending in general quite a bit in the overall balance in General... 

- as the AI lack may lack superior match context (see above), it however traditionally won't ever much "notice" when it's getting "abused" for the vice versa, which is an overly aggressive Approach. Think Guardiola never actually reacting to when he's exposed over and over and over again. In fact, in-game, he may actually go even more aggressive upon conceding each Goal, as he's "Chasing an Opposition lead from Opposition AI Guardiola "Thinks" he SHOULD DAMN BEAT" (lack of superior match context)

[johnsie]

17 hours ago, sootstar07 said:

1st season. 5th game of Champions league group stage, 1st game of the last update.. No tactic change, nothing. A few subs a same mentality. And it is Win... Win.. Win... Champions League final against Bayern M. 3-0

This is very weird. Similar to my case when the game should be at its most realistic it's not remotely so. I, for instance, just haven't had the money for major squad changes. There has to be an explanation for this. Mitja links to some interesting threads but I don't know. These results are occurring against teams that are at minimum competitive, and the incidence of blowouts in our favor is very high. Like I said, I'm unaware of any exploits and don't do anything special.

Due to file size restriction I can't upload my save.

[chris.tan__]

Try VFL Wolfsburg. Then you will know how tough the game actually is

[sootstar07]

4 horas atrás, chris.tan__ disse:

Try VFL Wolfsburg. Then you will know how tough the game actually is

I think that is not correct. A game must be a challenge for every club. I quit playing, and waiting for a better AI / ME in the next update. If stills so easy, i think i'll pass next FM2020. For example I love Playin CIV VI. And the game all these years it is addictive most of all for the challenging, and we can switch difficult levels. Why FM give it a try.. FM 2019 for my opinion it is unplayable.

[Mitja]

19 hours ago, Svenc said:

- the most extremely defensive tactics have had loads of Players on a defend / hold positioin / barely cross the half way line duty for like years. They are used very readily. They are so focused on keepingn Things tight / making it harder to score for the Opposition that they basically translate to : "We're not much even trying. We simply want to frustrate". FM 19 seems to have tightened up defending in general quite a bit in the overall balance in General... 

not only that but it will use all team instructions on extremely defensive side and also team mentality will just enhence general instructions. 

such football is simply not how any team will aproach the game. and more importantly such teams won't be able to dominate top class opposition possession wise. the frustrate mentality is reserved for teams that are far better opponent and in fm it's the opposite.

and i can't understand why SI can't see such obvious stuff and make things easier for them. there's no need for instruction like mentality anymore it's unnesesery modifier of all other instructions. especially now when finally transition instructions were introduced.

[johnsie]

11 hours ago, sootstar07 said:

I think that is not correct. A game must be a challenge for every club.

Apparently not even SI agrees. That's the fascinating thing to me. Not only does what they imply fly in the face of realism it also makes the game a joke playing with the teams most people would be most inclined to play with. I don't understand the implicit satisfaction with this state of things. Only a few teams are an exception in terms of challenge irl, Real Madrid being the foremost one, and the absence of Ronaldo may alter that.

PS

Is Civ 6 any different from previous ones? I despise that series.

[zigaliro]

12 hours ago, sootstar07 said:

I think that is not correct. A game must be a challenge for every club. I quit playing, and waiting for a better AI / ME in the next update. If stills so easy, i think i'll pass next FM2020. For example I love Playin CIV VI. And the game all these years it is addictive most of all for the challenging, and we can switch difficult levels. Why FM give it a try.. FM 2019 for my opinion it is unplayable.

I agree with you! A game must be challenging for every club. I don`t understand people that are saying "well of course you find it too easy, you are playing as a x which is a top team".  Even in real life managers who manage top teams won`t find it easy to win everything. And that`s how it should be in FM too. Of course it should be a little bit easier winning games if you manage a top side, but not super easy that you can then just win everything.

[johnsie]

Benfica is rather far from being a top team continentally.

[goodmanp]

For all those that are finding it easy to win/advance....sprinkle some of your ferry dust on me please. I hover around the 40% win mark...if I am lucky. I am an American, and started on fm17, so haven't played FM that long. But I have come to realize that soccer is the best sport in the world!

[johnsie]

What team are you playing with and what are you doing?

[LukasZ_VCF]

On 12/01/2019 at 12:08, sootstar07 said:

1st season. 5th game of Champions league group stage, 1st game of the last update.. No tactic change, nothing. A few subs a same mentality. And it is Win... Win.. Win... Champions League final against Bayern M. 3-0

What tactic u use?

[djpdavey]

There are plenty of people struggling with this game. I think you probably have a better understanding of how the ME plays and how to play against it. Ultimately I think you're probably just good at the game. Maybe you need to take control of a more pathetic team?