FM19 - Recreating the Chievo 4-4-2 diamond

[b101]

First off, this is a thread about the journey, not the solutions. I find it hugely beneficial to write about my tactics in order to understand them and troubleshoot. There may be some answers in here, but it may also be a car crash . And after all, when you create a tactic based on a manager who had a 29% win rate over four years with the club, it probably will be a car crash...

Last year's thread focused on the Enganche role - do give it a read if interested and well worth seeing some of the quality my lovely Sampedrense side had: 

This year, I wanted to take inspiration from a real-life tactic that I found interesting and try to work on another formational aspect I've never tried, namely the 4-4-2 narrow diamond. As my save stands, as Man Utd, we've dominated the first season, winning league (with 105 points and +100 GD) and Champions League and have pretty much got an amazing squad (it's pretty good to begin with), with the major signings being Asensio and Milinkovic-Savic, whilst also bringing in two much better centre backs in Ruben Dias and Presnel Kimpembe. So, why change?

The main reason is one of those transfers - Sergej Milinkovic-Savic. I feel I can get much more out of him alongside Pogba, as at the moment, he's reduced to the BWM (S) role to do Pog's dirty work. Pogba is on fire, with 12 goals in 13 games this season and 23 in 39 last season from his box-to-box midfielder role, but Sergej just feels like an afterthought. Having a DM behind them would open up huge numbers of possibilities. 

The secondary reason is wanting to use two strikers - Rashford doesn't lead the line well on his own for me, and whilst Lukaku has been great, I am hoping for more of that quick interchanging football with neat through balls rather than just scoring from crosses and long shots as we pretty much currently are.

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So, why Chievo and what does their formation look like?

A few articles on the 4-4-2 diamond mentioned Chievo, most notably:

https://www.chiesaditotti.com/2017/5/27/15703426/tactical-breakdown-chievo-verona-v-a-s-roma

https://footballbh.net/2018/02/27/4-1-2-1-2-diamond/

The below clip on how they attack was particularly interesting:

My main takeaways from what I've seen and read:

• Some fairly aggressive roles and duties (see picture below for them attacking Roma)
• Creating overloads by using the full backs, who use the whole width of the pitch
• A water-carrier in DM role to recycle possession (Radovanovic)
• One poacher-type (Inglese) and one striker who roams more
• The CMs end up very wide
• Patient, progressive build up when they expect to control the game

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The main difference I will incorporate will be how I use the two CMs - I need and want both of Sergej and Pogba to be attacking threats, rather than going much wider. This may evolve as I see the tactic perform.

So, my first interpretation, after playing around a bit in a home game against Wolves (we won 3-0, but having Alexis as a Trequartista was a complete disaster - he was isolated from the midfield and only received 4 passes. Consequently, the butterfly effect began: the Mezzala role went to an Attack duty, Asensio changed from an Enganche to a plain AM (S) and the Trequartista changed to a False Nine, paired with a Poacher rather than a DLF. Got that? We now look like the below:

In possession

Seems logical to me - we want to stretch the pitch wide, controlling possession and gradually working an opening. Full backs overlapping are a must. I deliberated between shorter/much shorter passing, but thought it'd be easier to work out if I started at the extreme. I trust my players' passing, technique, decisions, vision and composure (both amongst the highest in the league) and I think we will need that in order to pick out some of those passes to unlock stubborn defences. Lower tempo as I don't want us forcing the issue.

In transition

Not sure about counter, but I don't want us to be too passive when the option arises. One to review.

Out of possession

The main danger has to be overloads on the flanks. Consequently, defend wider seems to make sense. Higher D Line and Line of Engagement - we have fast defenders and I want to squeeze the space where we can. 

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Next up will be what we see over a few more games and how the tactic evolves. Hope you've enjoyed reading so far!

 

[b101]

Cardiff (A) - won 2-1 with 61% possession

First game with the formation and there are some obvious changes to make. First, the average player positions:

It's clear immediately that, for one reason or another, the poacher role still isn't working. Rashford (10) is totally isolated and not involved - backed up by him receiving just five passes in the game. When subbed off for Lukaku, I made Lukaku an Advanced Forward instead. Big Rom received 6 passes in his 22 minutes, more than Rashford did in 68... Could change the role, could make the players more adventurous with their passing.

Full backs are getting forward and proving a great outlet. 

But, most of their passes are going back to our DM... 37 passes between Dalot (RB) and Luis, and 26 between Tymon (LB) and Luis.

There's patient, but this feels too patient. Why are the players not passing forward to Asensio, or Martial, or Rashford? 0 key passes from either Pogba or Sergej is also a concern.

Options:

- Go to a more attacking mentality? 
- Take off the 'short passing' shout
- Change the forwards' roles
- Change Luis from a DLP (D) - is he attracting the ball too much? It certainly isn't in dangerous areas...
- Try to draw the defence out by dropping deeper? Must be tough for the strikers when they simply aren't a passing option.

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Some interesting thoughts come into mind, but it feels too chop and change. I like the idea of two attacking Mezzalas, which might provide more support and move them closer to the strikers and Asensio - something like the below:

But is that getting too far away from the original idea? For the moment, I think so...

What I will do instead is the following:

Changes in red might seem like a lot, but they feel fairly logical:

- DM (S) for Luis to not attract the ball so much. 
- LB was getting possibly too far forward, so that will go to a WB (S) role for the moment to add a bit more balance.
- Up front, Rashford to an AF (A) to get him more involved, whilst Asensio changes to a Treq to push him a bit closer to the attackers and try to bridge that gap. I'm not sure about the Treq change, so will continue to monitor
- Finally, I've moved away from lower tempo and much shorter passing - it wasn't really helping other than to allow us to work the ball to the full backs who would smash a cross into the defender right in front of them.

RB Leipzig away will be an interesting challenge with this formation - not creating a huge amount as yet...

[b101]

RB Leipzig (A)

This from the first 15 minutes:

There have been a number of similar counter attacks where we look really well-balanced and set-up, but just make slightly the wrong decisions. Another case in point below where reserve reserve Right Back Ethan Laird is guilty of just getting head down and running when there's an obvious overload to his left:

Half time stats don't do us justice - we have hammered them and just missing that final ball or good decision. Clearly, we are sacrificing possession and playing much more on the counter, but all players are now involved and far less is going through the DM than previously. Are we giving up too much possession? Based on watching the comprehensive highlights, I don't think so:

Passing shows that we are being much more progressive and looking to move forward, earlier:

We ended up winning 2-1 following a late Rashford goal, having moved him to the F9 role on the right side of the attack. I'm still struggling to get the AF (A) role working with this tactic, but that may just take time. No changes planned to the tactic after this game, but things to keep an eye on are as follows:

- the AMC role - is Treq the way to go? Often overlapping with the Mezzala at the moment, which isn't what I'm after.
- the AF (A) role
- any further observations

Next up, West Ham (H)

[Hoosier_76]

Just some observations, feel free to completely ignore them:

You've got a lot of roaming going on in the midfield, I'd replace the mezzala with a carrilero. This would give you more stability in the midfield and allow Dalot to be on an attack duty and get forward. 

A treq could work there, but you gotta remember that they're not gonna do a whole lot of pressing the ball. Have you thought about a Shadow Striker to take advantage of the space created by the f9?

I don't think Martial is a good choice to play the f9 role. To me that role is more of a playmaker role than anything else and Martial's passing and vision arent that great iirc. 

[jc577]

I like what you're trying to do with this, but having two attacking central midfielders when playing a diamond doesn't make all that much sense to me, considering you've got a trident up top and almost solely rely on the full-backs for width. Almost seems as if you're crowding the centre of the pitch too much, and tbh you're main goalscoring threat is the AF, no one else is looking to attack space early. The Mez and BBM will do so but later on in moves. Personally, I'd change the AM to an AM-A/SS, to take advantage of the space created by the f9. Or change the f9 to a CF-S so both strikers are more proactive in getting in behind, giving the Treq more targets, as currently, they're trying to do similar things. 

[haagendasz]

I have a same 3rd tactic like this with ManU. 

The differences are :

1. AMC on AP-su/at

2. MCL on DLP-su but MCR on BBM or BWM-su

3. DL on CWB-su if it is Dalot or Shaw playing. DR on WB-su almost everytime but  if I saw my DL got low rating then I change my DR to CWB.

I couldn’t get consistent results with this tactics. I mainly use this formation when I’m facing 4231. 

The weakness on my tactics is AMC rarely got assists or good ratings. Even though we won comfortably he only got max 7.00 rating, more often under 6.8. 

Struggling to create chances from crossing even with positive mentality which will made the players take more risks especially the AMC on AP-su/at. 

Rarely seen a through ball although I set lower LOE and standard defensive line.

Should I use Pogba as Mezalla or even a RPM?

[ceefax the cat]

The current ME basically prohibits incisive passing through the middle so a diamond is likely to end up producing lots of blocked crosses from the fullbacks and a congested centre

[b101]

14 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

The current ME basically prohibits incisive passing through the middle so a diamond is likely to end up producing lots of blocked crosses from the fullbacks and a congested centre

It's proving more difficult than I would have hoped, but that is likely as much due to me as the ME.

20 hours ago, haagendasz said:

I have a same 3rd tactic like this with ManU. 

The differences are :

1. AMC on AP-su/at

2. MCL on DLP-su but MCR on BBM or BWM-su

3. DL on CWB-su if it is Dalot or Shaw playing. DR on WB-su almost everytime but  if I saw my DL got low rating then I change my DR to CWB.

I couldn’t get consistent results with this tactics. I mainly use this formation when I’m facing 4231. 

The weakness on my tactics is AMC rarely got assists or good ratings. Even though we won comfortably he only got max 7.00 rating, more often under 6.8. 

Struggling to create chances from crossing even with positive mentality which will made the players take more risks especially the AMC on AP-su/at. 

Rarely seen a through ball although I set lower LOE and standard defensive line.

Should I use Pogba as Mezalla or even a RPM?

Yep, finding many of the same issues. We are often facing a packed box and as this doesn't create much space other than for the full backs, it has proved tricky. The AMC does ok, but is still not really playing the through balls, exactly as you see.

On 01/01/2019 at 20:13, Hoosier_76 said:

Just some observations, feel free to completely ignore them:

You've got a lot of roaming going on in the midfield, I'd replace the mezzala with a carrilero. This would give you more stability in the midfield and allow Dalot to be on an attack duty and get forward. 

A treq could work there, but you gotta remember that they're not gonna do a whole lot of pressing the ball. Have you thought about a Shadow Striker to take advantage of the space created by the f9?

I don't think Martial is a good choice to play the f9 role. To me that role is more of a playmaker role than anything else and Martial's passing and vision arent that great iirc. 

Agreed with the roaming, but that was kind of the idea from the off. We don't give up that many chances and I wanted to try to really dominate using the CM pairing we have. For me, the Carrilero role just felt a bit too passive - that said, I haven't played around with it too much.

Treq as the role idea was purely to try to get someone to play the through balls and have creativity. I'm just not really seeing them from anyone, to be honest. I did consider the SS, but how I'd actually want it working is the two CMs pushing beyond the AM to support the strikers. The Enganche would seem the most fitting role, but it definitely isn't working as I had hoped... I have one more idea to try, which is lowering line of engagement and defensive line to ensure that we draw teams out to create space. Otherwise, it may be curtains for this tactic if I can't get the throughballs going - just seeing way too much of the full backs in loads of space, then waiting to hitting crosses at defenders.

Meant to be Sanchez rather than Martial at F9, but he's injured (I think) - I could eventually train Angel Gomes to play the role though.

22 hours ago, jc577 said:

I like what you're trying to do with this, but having two attacking central midfielders when playing a diamond doesn't make all that much sense to me, considering you've got a trident up top and almost solely rely on the full-backs for width. Almost seems as if you're crowding the centre of the pitch too much, and tbh you're main goalscoring threat is the AF, no one else is looking to attack space early. The Mez and BBM will do so but later on in moves. Personally, I'd change the AM to an AM-A/SS, to take advantage of the space created by the f9. Or change the f9 to a CF-S so both strikers are more proactive in getting in behind, giving the Treq more targets, as currently, they're trying to do similar things. 

As above, I do see your point, but the attacking CMs was very much the idea originally. I have considered most of your suggestions already, to be honest - I do see a version where we are more supportive rather than aggressive at CM, but it requires totally reworking how I can see this working - I want a lot of players attacking from deep and posing different threats, whilst having the AF to hit over the top. The F9 is just trying to bridge the gap between midfield and attack as none of the other roles I try have worked.

I do think a lot of the issues I've found so far stem from my default high press leaving very compacted defensive sides, so I will try changing that next.

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Over the last few games, Ihave looked at quite a few things - it may just be the players interpreting the roles differently, but when playing Angel Gomes at AM (Treq) against West Ham, we saw this sort of thing pretty frequently:

Everyone attacking at exactly the same depth isn't great for me looking to create chances. In this case, I changed Angel Gomes to an AM (S) and pushed Milinkovic-Savic to a CM (A) in the hope that he would get beyond the AM. The good news is that Martial (AF) was totally involved, scoring two in the first half and threatening way more than that - the best he's played in this save for me. Ended up 5-1, but lots of the dangerous moves followed West Ham attacks and our counters. Again, I think creating space by drawing them on to us is the key

[b101]

P.S. Thank you for all the feedback - always interested to get others' takes and suggestions, so please do keep them coming.

[ceefax the cat]

I admire your optimism but you categorically will not get your creative midfielders playing through balls through the middle with this ME. I've tried and tried and if you look at the bugs forums you'll see lots of others have too. It doesn't happen because AM's don't see the pass and strikers don't move for it. You're better off playing on the break or trying to optimise long shot opportunities. And get your corner and throw in routines sorted because no overlap means a heck of a lot of blocked crosses, even more than usual

 

Sad but true

 

[b101]

1 hour ago, ceefax the cat said:

I admire your optimism but you categorically will not get your creative midfielders playing through balls through the middle with this ME. I've tried and tried and if you look at the bugs forums you'll see lots of others have too. It doesn't happen because AM's don't see the pass and strikers don't move for it. You're better off playing on the break or trying to optimise long shot opportunities. And get your corner and throw in routines sorted because no overlap means a heck of a lot of blocked crosses, even more than usual

 

Sad but true

 

Have to say, I've just gone back to play a game of FM18 and even in the first 10 minutes, the differences are remarkable in what I'm seeing... Might put this on hold for a little bit  

[ceefax the cat]

Yes, FM17 for me, which is the last one I had a save of any great length on. Went back and started a save in Russia and the difference is so clear. FM19 is seriously broken until further notice and I'm a bit miffed at having spent £35 on it

[Rupal]

I appear to have hit on a very reasonable 4-4-2 diamond tactic which is working brilliantly for me in the elevated level of the Vanarama South with Oxford City.  What I'm really happy about is that I'm topping the table, unbeaten, on a 10 match record winning run and doing it playing to strict Lower League rules.  I claim nothing but luck, I'm no tactical genius!!  

Oxford are strongly tipped for relegation.  They do have one or two good players at the start including strong central midfielders which helps a lot with this.  I dumbed down the vertical tiki-taki instructions and positions to suit my less than wonderful players.  Playing SK (sup) DL (wb support) DR (same) 2 CD (defend), DM (support), 2 CM (support), AP (attack) DLF (support) AF (attack).  The chief goal scorer is proving to be the DLF (who's a good player). In spite of the gloomy predictions and the constant urging by the assman to go defensive or very defensive for all matches I keep playing positive or attacking and the goals keep going in and going in!  I am even beginning to consider the possibility of reaching the dizzy heights of the Vanarama itself!!

It does seem that this is a tactic that works in the Lower Leagues with a very mediocre team.  So I'm encouraged!

 

Edit: Still unbeaten, 13 games into the season and the DLF has scored 16 in 16 matches!  Can't grumble at that!

Edited June 20, 2019 by Rupal

[Corperate]

Would you search for an Overlap in this formation? Considering the control formation 5221 and the 41212 vertical tiki taka don't include overlaps?