10 Relegated out of 3 regional leagues - how to solve w/o playoffs?

[scythian12]

Hi,

I do hope there is a simple answer to this - how do I get 10 teams relegated from 3 divisions, where the worst 4th-last team from one division gets relegated along with the 3 bottom ones in each of them (No playoffs). It's the reverse of what is being done at the group stage at the Euros, so the program can surely handle it!

Kind regards,

Scythian

[aidanwind]

The dumb relegation system of Hungarian 3rd division, isn't it?
I don't think there is anything you can do to make it realistic, I just played around with it a bit, as I added the 20 4th division groups. However, as a workaround I choose one of the 3rd division groups and set their relegation places to 4 and the others to 3. As it was Keleti csoport, I made sure that the there are a few more 4th divison groups that will be promoted to Keleti csoport, to give a higher chance of one of the teams from the correct region to make it, than to the other two.
Right now, I'm trying to add 5th divison, but I'm affraid, I can only add the teams and groups, but complex systems like this are difficult to model with the editor, so what I'm gonna do is, setting each county the correct higher division and hope that the mess with 3rd division relegations won't make it look all too bad. After a few hours of testing, this seems to be working fine and if you don't mind simulating the actual system, but still having all the divisions, this might do as a workaround.

[scythian12]

You are right on it. Luckily, the impressive deduction skills of krlenjushka would enable the implementation of the correct relegation/promotion behaviour for the 1st county-level divisions (where actually the number of promotion/relegation places between level 4 (county 1) and 5 (county 2) is dependent on the county 1st divisions getting their champion promoted & the county of the NB3 division relegation candidates - but I thought this particular problem would be much simpler to solve.

I have experimented around by adding an additional stage in the main division where the 13th-placed would be transferred and be compared, taking their statistics along, but in this case the game only calculated relegations/promotions from the main NB3 and not the regional divisions - apparently the editor cannot handle sub-divisions AND a later main division stage. X(

A workaround could be to insert a second stage akin to the one I described to one of the sub-divisions, but then participant numbers would be uneven and an additional geographic sorting stage would have to be done at the beginning of the season which could work but possibly wouldn't - however I really dislike the asymmetry of such a solution.

The thing I do not get is, there is so many 'alternate fate' options based on the results within ONE division (like getting more teams relegated if they are withn certain points to each other - where does this even happen?) but no way to compare the result in different regional divisions across each other (I put this point forward in the introduction, the game can handle it and there are other -prominent- real world examples out there - then why not have it as an option along with the much hairier stuff?)

[aidanwind]

"You are right on it. Luckily, the impressive deduction skills of krlenjushka would enable the implementation of the correct relegation/promotion behaviour for the 1st county-level divisions (where actually the number of promotion/relegation places between level 4 (county 1) and 5 (county 2) is dependent on the county 1st divisions getting their champion promoted & the county of the NB3 division relegation candidates -" 
- What? You can actually do that?

Unfortunately the editor seems to be unable to handle komplex setups. Recently, I added everything til Megyei II and tested. The way I described seems to be working fine(addin 4 relegation places to one of the sub divisions and setting more groups to promoted to that one from Megye I), it didn't become a mess yet. I can't really think of another solution that can be sorted out with the editor.
As for county level I have set it up the old school way til Megye II and then the fun starts as counties have uneven numbers of 3rd divisions mostly, promoting to an even number of 2nd county divisions. This seems to be pretty much impossible to simulate properly, so here is what I just tried and it seems to be woking(tho not enitrely realistic as it's been many years since I've last dealt with county level football):
My Megye I is a main division containing 20 sub divisions for each county + capital. Promotion is set to playoffs between the champions to fill the relegation places of NB3, I had to mess up. That seems to be working well.
Then I have added a level 5 division, named after the county(Bács-Kiskun Megyei II. osztály) and added the 2 groups(Észak and Dél) as 2 sub divisions. Promotion is set to the specific sub division of the Megye I(Bács-Kiskun Megyei I. osztály) Then I added the level 6 division(Bács-Kiskun Megyei III. osztály) and created 3 subdivisions for the respective groups(Észak, Dél, Közép). Here however, I didn't add a sub division for promotion, but the Main division(Bács-Kiskun Megyei II. osztály) and the relegation from Megye II. is set up in a similar way: There is no specific sub division set for the relegation, just the main one and the regions set up. According to the test engine it works. Will test it in game when finished too. I might have messed up the regions a bit though.

(Mind you: I had no real intention to make it realistic, I just wanted to add all the leagues in a way they work)

EDIT: This was working until I started adding further competiitons. This now means I will have to stick to the old school way and try to see, how can I get the game logic to do promotions and relegations right. :/
Also, I need to find a way to add a sub division to a sub division.

EDIT2: Sacrificing a bit of reality and setting specific promotion and relegation numbers for each group seems to be the easiest solution, then again it kills realism(can be sort of countered with very specific region settings), but at least it works. I'm also not a wizard on the editor, so I mostly trying to find ways to get things work and sacrificing a bit of reality from time to time is not too high of a price.

[scythian12]

7 hours ago, aidanwind said:

"You are right on it. Luckily, the impressive deduction skills of krlenjushka would enable the implementation of the correct relegation/promotion behaviour for the 1st county-level divisions (where actually the number of promotion/relegation places between level 4 (county 1) and 5 (county 2) is dependent on the county 1st divisions getting their champion promoted & the county of the NB3 division relegation candidates -" 
- What? You can actually do that?

See the main sticky topic of the subforum...

[aidanwind]

Nice. Unfortunately it's too advanced for my knowledge in the editor, which is the reason, I try to find workarounds. However, this might be of some use to you in trying to solve relegation from NB3. I think, it should be possible to set up something similar, to generate or rather extend that dynamic relegation. Did you try to play around with the stages?


 

[cleiria]

If i understand the question (i'm not a english speaker), i think i have a solution. is like this

 

[scythian12]

Thanks for the input, but that sadly does not work - there it is a single -group- stage with just one competition and no child competitions. When you have 3 separate child competitions, underneath a main parent one, with a stage each, you cannot add any stages to the parent one, because the program cannot handle that apparently, it confuses it. When I enter an additional league stage underneath the parent competition, whilst it seems to set up, but does not relegate any additional team in the end. Hence you would need to add a stage 1 to all 3 child competitions, which would need to work symmetrically, which I have not been able to figure out how (as you are alway "pulling" teams around). I am uncertain whether the program can actually handle taking results between different child competitions. The situation described in all other guides (also in your problem) handles always only one main competition with sequential stages and no child competition cross-referencing and cross-influencing. That is my main ache.

[scythian12]

On 10/01/2019 at 22:13, scythian12 said:

Thanks for the input, but that sadly does not work - there it is a single -group- stage with just one competition and no child competitions. When you have 3 separate child competitions, underneath a main parent one, with a stage each, you cannot add any stages to the parent one, because the program cannot handle that apparently, it confuses it. When I enter an additional league stage underneath the parent competition, whilst it seems to set up, but does not relegate any additional team in the end. Hence you would need to add a stage 1 to all 3 child competitions, which would need to work symmetrically, which I have not been able to figure out how (as you are alway "pulling" teams around). I am uncertain whether the program can actually handle taking results between different child competitions. The situation described in all other guides (also in your problem) handles always only one main competition with sequential stages and no child competition cross-referencing and cross-influencing. That is my main ache.

It does work, but in a different way. Solved the issue - the main point was to introduce a hidden stage 0 in the main competition and add the relegation stage 1 for the 13. placed. BUT when getting the teams from the league stage you have to choose positions 12 to 12 because the counting begins at 0... Now there is a relegation stage behind all regional leagues, but it is one universal one. I am greatly frustrated about how nonstraightforward this was.

[aidanwind]

So does this make the sub divisions properly cross-reference each other?

[scythian12]

If you can recommend a good display snipping tool, I am happy to share the setup and in-game result.

[aidanwind]

If i remember correctly, you can take screenshots with fraps.

[scythian12]

I am bit stupid - windows has a built-in one...

So, this is what you get (click for zoom):

Stage I

Stage II

This one appears under all 3 regional divisions.

Setup:

Mother competition with two stages

Stage 1 reqs

Teams to get - important to note - position 12 for the actual 13.

Leage settings - 1

2

3 - this is why I go with two stages - if you transfer standings from stage 0 (relegation stage number without the hidden stage 0) in the main competition, I fear it would try to get them from itself, hence making sure that there are two stages.

 

Relegation rules for the regional divisions - though I am not certain if the max 4 is required, the program does not relegate any more teams than 3 at this stage.

It could be conceivable that inserting hidden stage 1s to the regional divisions might help the program's soul, though I am uncertain.

[aidanwind]

Thanks very much. I will play arouns with this. What do you think, taking these settings for lower divisions, should be able to sort the chaotic relegation system for those as well(lower Megyei divisions seemed to have an even more messed up system)?