Learning Process

[Jommelb]

Hey,

I've got quite a lot of FM experience, read a lot of threads, but I'm still struggling. I love to play LLM, but I still struggle with building a tactic that fits my squad and the qualities in it. So I want to make a thread in which I will present my squad (slowly, not all the players at once) and later my thinking process in the hope you guys can give me tips, point me to things I miss of wrong players I choose. I've been playing with Scarborough Athletic for 2 seasons now and just promoted to the vanorama national league. Which means I'm really not one of the better teams in the league and my squad needs improvement. Which is hard, because a lot of players don't want to play for us... But let's start with the CD's I have right now:

Nield: just brought him in and looks like a decent CD with potential. Lacks concentration and is not very good in the air.
Downing: has been playing almost every match the past two seasons. Lacks concentration, marking and speed. Only decent in positioning and strength. But very strong in the air. Was one of my players the past two seasons, both average rating above 7. 

Ritson: decent overall stats, but not really tall so not strong in the air
Edwards: concentration and positioning are good, pretty decent mentals overall.

So if I look at this I think I would start with Edwards and Nield. But I'm a little concerned that they might not be strong enough in the air. We're one of the weaker sides so we might end up defending a lot. I'm also wondering if I skip past the good ratings of Downing too fast. 
I hope a couple of you want to think with me and give your opinions. After that I will show you another part of my squad.

[Experienced Defender]

On 09/03/2019 at 12:22, Jommelb said:

Lacks concentration, marking and speed

And bravery as well. Which in a lower league can be an even greater handicap than low stats for core defensive attributes like marking, tackling, positioning etc...

 

On 09/03/2019 at 12:22, Jommelb said:

So if I look at this I think I would start with Edwards and Nield. But I'm a little concerned that they might not be strong enough in the air. We're one of the weaker sides so we might end up defending a lot. I'm also wondering if I skip past the good ratings of Downing too fast. 
I hope a couple of you want to think with me and give your opinions. After that I will show you another part of my squad

I would like to give my opinion, but I would like to see some more players. Because (the art of) defending is not reliant only on defenders. In lower leagues, neither too defensive nor too attacking a tactic is a good choice. So it's key to find the right balance that suits the players you have. But a general "rule of thumb" is try to keep it simple. Nothing (too) fancy or adventurous. Unless you are as good a tactician as Rashidi 

[Jommelb]

@Experienced Defender I hope this post didn't become too long. But thanks for your response and that your willing to think along!

Of course defending is about the whole team, but I didn't want to put too much screenshots in one post. It scares people away I guess. I'll try to give you an idea of the whole squad. 

My two wide (and star) players. Rivers scored quite a lot of goals last season and Annan is my assistking. For now my idea is to play Rivers on the left side and let him come inside. And to play Annan on the right side as a winger (unfortunately lacks some speed).

Dan Maguire is my first choice striker. Decent finisher, but also pretty ok as a supportive striker. 
Sampson is a targetman of course. Haven't used him much last season. 
I could sign O'neill, he has played on loan for us for the last 2 seasons. A real poacher but also quite good in the air.

I always find my central midfield the hardest part to get right. 

Doyle, great mentals for a BWM, makes lots of tackles and interceptions. Unfortunately very bad technical.
Sangaré, technically great, but lacks mentals. Especially work rate, determination, bravery, vision, decisions. Despite his great passing not really suitable as a creator I think.

Dixon: first season very important, last season I've used him less. Reason:  his of the ball attribute and not really good physicals
Reid: very allround and no real weaknesses, but also not really a creator. 

Then the two most creative midfielders:
Bell: Great vision, first touch, decisions and of course speed! But his of the ball is really low. I always doubt about these kind of players in LLM games. The game rates him very high, but I think some really important mentals are too low. Of the ball, positioning especially.
Chaney: decent creator, but physically not so good. Game rates him pretty low.

Dawson, just like Chaney. Decent creator, but those physicals...
Barnes: trying to sign him, defensively solid. 

Full backs. Canham is really good.
Thomson and Nyaupembe are decent at the right side.

I hope the post hasn't become too long. I wonder if I miss important attributes/options in my squad. For now I've created this tactic. But not really sure about support or attack duties. Maybe I want the wingers a position back. Since we're not one of the better teams I want to sit a little back and try to attack fast and direct. Exploit the space behind. Also no sure about the TI's

[herne79]

@Jommelb  I'm going to purposely exaggerate to (hopefully) demonstrate the point.

This is what you think you've built:

 

This is what you've actually built:

 

A Poacher in that set up is going to be a challenge.  All those support duties in those positions who are also being told to drop deep before engaging the opposition is more than likely going to leave your poor little Poacher isolated and trying to battle two burly central defenders without any support.  Poachers don't hold the ball up, they feed off scraps, through balls and crosses inside the penalty area.  All they want to do is shoot and nearer the goal the better.  They're not a team player.  If you want to use a Poacher, he'll need better support.  Alternatively think about how you can use the striker role to also bring others into play.

[Experienced Defender]

First off, I absolutely agree with herne's comment above 

I would also add that my personal preference for a LL team would be a two-striker system - ideally 442, or 532. Especially as you have strikers that can make a good old TM/PO combo 

I have taken a lengthy look at all the screenshots, as well as your comments on each player. I have some basic idea as to how I would set up a tactic with these guys (both in your 433 and "my" 442 system. So if you want me to present "my tactic", I'll be glad to share it with you (along with appropriate explanation). It might give you some ideas, I don't know 

[Jommelb]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

@Jommelb  I'm going to purposely exaggerate to (hopefully) demonstrate the point.

This is what you think you've built:

 

This is what you've actually built:

 

A Poacher in that set up is going to be a challenge.  All those support duties in those positions who are also being told to drop deep before engaging the opposition is more than likely going to leave your poor little Poacher isolated and trying to battle two burly central defenders without any support.  Poachers don't hold the ball up, they feed off scraps, through balls and crosses inside the penalty area.  All they want to do is shoot and nearer the goal the better.  They're not a team player.  If you want to use a Poacher, he'll need better support.  Alternatively think about how you can use the striker role to also bring others into play.

@herne79, Thanks for your response. Pretty accurate...
But what I already said, I didn't make a decision on attack/support duties. 
I chose the poacher because Rashidi often uses the poacher because he plays simple passes and then focuses on scoring. But I want one of my wide players on an attack duty. Last season that was the IF. But I find that often when we attack the an IF(A) is already inside and in the box before a through ball can be played. I can't get that 'timing' right.

But what you're trying te say is that my striker needs more support. I agree. So I want one of the wingers on attack and maybe one of the CM's. 
And of course I have to review the striker role. I'm also considering a dlf(A) or a PF.

I hope I got your point

[Jommelb]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

First off, I absolutely agree with herne's comment above 

I would also add that my personal preference for a LL team would be a two-striker system - ideally 442, or 532. Especially as you have strikers that can make a good old TM/PO combo 

I have taken a lengthy look at all the screenshots, as well as your comments on each player. I have some basic idea as to how I would set up a tactic with these guys (both in your 433 and "my" 442 system. So if you want me to present "my tactic", I'll be glad to share it with you (along with appropriate explanation). It might give you some ideas, I don't know 

If you want to I would be grateful. I'm especially interested in why you picked the tactic and roles in relation to the players and their attributes.

[Experienced Defender]

11 minutes ago, Jommelb said:

I'm especially interested in why you picked the tactic and roles in relation to the players and their attributes

Because I always do so when creating a tactic, whatever team I manage. I analyze the players a lot in order to assess which formation and playing/tactical style would suit them best according to their strengths and weaknesses. Then I use the pre-season to test my primary tactic and see if and what tweaks may be needed in various situations. 

 

13 minutes ago, Jommelb said:

If you want to I would be grateful

Of course I will. But In a later post, because it will take some more time to do.

[Experienced Defender]

So now I will first deal with "my" 442 tactic for your team (based on the players you posted the screenshots of). I will describe the tactic and then explain my reasoning behind each element of it.

Roles and duties:

TMsu    PO

 

IWat    BWMde    CMsu    Wsu

 

WBde   NCBde   CDst      NFB

GK/SKde

My first-choice 11, explanation and player instructions:

GK - haven't seen a screenshot, so I guess  Taylor (as your choice) is the best GK you have; not sure if he should play as a SK or standard GK, because don't know his attributes

DL/WBde - Canham (haven't seen any other LB, but he looks quite decent)

DR/NFB - Nyaumpembe (the key reason I opted for him as the first choice is his speed, agility and determination compared to Thomson's); PI - sit narrower (for whoever plays this role)

DCL/NCBde - Edwards (positioning, anticipation and concentration were key to my decision to opt for him as the "deeper" of the two CBs)

DCR/CDst - Nield (tackling, aggression, bravery, determination and decent speed made me believe he would be the best choice for a stopper)

NOTE: i saw that you use the guy called Evans, but I haven't seen his profile, so cannot know if he would be a better choice.

LM/IWat - Annan (unlike you, I think he would be better utilized on the left than Rivers, given his good long shots rating and the related trait; so, as an attack-duty IW, he will get further forward, attack the space and attempt long shots, which in a lower league is an easier way to score than it's in higher-level ones: plus, he will be thus better available for balls from the TM) - PI - sit narrower, take more risks, mark tighter, mark specific position MR or AMR

RM/Wsu - Rivers (right-footed, pretty pacy, good dribbling and quite decent crossing for LL standards) - PI - get further forward, mark tighter, mark specific position ML or AML

CML/BWMde - Doyle (definitely the most obvious choice for a BWM role; but if you see him making too many fouls and getting yellow/red cards too often, change him to a standard CM on defend duty) - PI - mark tighter

CMR/CMsu - Bell (you have really a lot of players for CM positions, and the main reason I picked Bell is his speed, which can be critical for a midfielder on a LL level, plus he's pretty decent technically; my second choice would be Barnes, mostly due to good positioning, work rate, decent concentration, tackling and physicals; others would be used in rotation) - PI - mark tighter

STCL/TMsu - Sampson (I thinks the choice is obvious) - PIs - shorter passing, hold position, max pressing urgency

STCR/PO - Maguire (again obvious) - PI - move into channels, max pressing urgency

Team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced (like yours )

In possession - higher tempo (not the highest), most direct passing possible, hit early crosses, float (or mixed) crosses

In transition - counter

Out of possession - standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

Explanation: given that we are talking about a LL team, you cannot count too much on your players' creative and technical abilities. So the idea is to keep it simple, look to be as tight in defense and possible and try to hit the opposition quickly on the counter. TIs such as playing out of defense, shorter passing, working ball into box and anything to that effect could be too risky and would only unnecessarily overcomplicate things 

NOTE: This is what my primary (basic) tactic would look like. Some tweaks would certainly be needed, based on a particular opponent and what happens on the pitch during a match. At least it is how I approach my tactics.

In the next post I'll devise a tactic based on your 433 formation.

If you have any questions and/or suggestions, you are welcome 

 

 

[djpdavey]

On 12/03/2019 at 17:34, Experienced Defender said:

I would also add that my personal preference for a LL team would be a two-striker system - ideally 442

Up to what league would you keep to a 4-4-2?

[Experienced Defender]

8 minutes ago, djpdavey said:

Up to what league would you keep to a 4-4-2?

Depends. The League one or even the Championship. Though I may continue to use a 442 in the Premier League as well, if that system is what suits my players best at the moment.

[Jommelb]

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

LM/IWat - Annan (unlike you, I think he would be better utilized on the left than Rivers, given his good long shots rating and the related trait; so, as an attack-duty IW, he will get further forward, attack the space and attempt long shots, which in a lower league is an easier way to score than it's in higher-level ones: plus, he will be thus better available for balls from the TM) - PI - sit narrower, take more risks, mark tighter, mark specific position MR or AMR

RM/Wsu - Rivers (right-footed, pretty pacy, good dribbling and quite decent crossing for LL standards) - PI - get further forward, mark tighter, mark specific position ML or AML

I understand your reasoning to pick Annan for that position. Last season I allowed them to change positions during the match. Rivers has the PPM cuts inside from the right wing, that could make the play a little to centrally focussed I think. 
I wonder why you would choose to let them mark specific positions and mark tighter??
 

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

CMR/CMsu - Bell (you have really a lot of players for CM positions, and the main reason I picked Bell is his speed, which can be critical for a midfielder on a LL level, plus he's pretty decent technically; my second choice would be Barnes, mostly due to good positioning, work rate, decent concentration, tackling and physicals; others would be used in rotation) - PI - mark tighter

Ok, so you pick speed over his low attributes for 'of the ball' and 'positioning'. Now and then I watch a show from Rashidi, but he always mentions these two attributes as the first he looks for in a central midfielder.

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

STCR/PO - Maguire (again obvious) - PI - move into channels, max pressing urgency

Why move into channels? Shouldn't he be in the middle as much as possible? 

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced (like yours )

In possession - higher tempo (not the highest), most direct passing possible, hit early crosses, float (or mixed) crosses

In transition - counter

Out of possession - standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

Explanation: given that we are talking about a LL team, you cannot count too much on your players' creative and technical abilities. So the idea is to keep it simple, look to be as tight in defense and possible and try to hit the opposition quickly on the counter. TIs such as playing out of defense, shorter passing, working ball into box and anything to that effect could be too risky and would only unnecessarily overcomplicate things 

So you would go for a sort of hoofball strategy. Sit back and just kick the ball forward for the targetman and try to support him and attack fast. 

Yeah, I know that in LLM physicals are very important. but you also need some creativity right? The reason I opted for play out of defense is to lure them into my half so there is more space in behind the opposition. 

[Experienced Defender]

45 minutes ago, Jommelb said:

I wonder why you would choose to let them mark specific positions and mark tighter??

To help the fullbacks in terms of defensive job on the flanks. I tend to instruct my midfielders - rather than defenders - to mark tighter and thus put pressure on opposition when they organize attacks, while the back four keep their defensive shape in the first place.

 

52 minutes ago, Jommelb said:

Ok, so you pick speed over his low attributes for 'of the ball' and 'positioning'. Now and then I watch a show from Rashidi, but he always mentions these two attributes as the first he looks for in a central midfielder

Yes, because this is LLM, so physical ability often takes precedence over intelligence, not least because tactical intelligence in lower leagues is not something other teams will have in abundance either. Plus, since it's a 442, the absence of a DM is another reason to give priority to speed.

I also watch Rashidi's videos regularly, and have learned a lot from him, but his approach is also somewhat different when he manages LL sides (compared to top division teams). 

1 hour ago, Jommelb said:

Why move into channels? Shouldn't he be in the middle as much as possible?

Because the other striker (TM on support) is told to hold position. Some movement is needed. If they both were stationary, how are you going to disrupt opposition defenses and create space up front? Moving into channels does not mean the player will do that all the time just for the sake of doing that. No, he'll MIC only when it makes sense in terms of where the ball is at a certain point of attacking build-up. 

 

1 hour ago, Jommelb said:

So you would go for a sort of hoofball strategy. Sit back and just kick the ball forward for the targetman and try to support him and attack fast

In this 442, yes - a sort of somewhat modified/adapted "hoofball". In a 433, it would be a bit different though.

1 hour ago, Jommelb said:

Yeah, I know that in LLM physicals are very important. but you also need some creativity right? The reason I opted for play out of defense is to lure them into my half so there is more space in behind the opposition. 

Each choice is legitimate when it comes to tactics 

[Jommelb]

Thanks so far. I think I'll have time to experiment with it tomorrow. I'll keep you informed and ask questions that might come up. 
I signed this guy btw, might have influence on how you would set up a different formation.

 

22 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I also watch Rashidi's videos regularly, and have learned a lot from him, but his approach is also somewhat different when he manages LL sides (compared to top division teams).

Yes he does different things, but he doesn't always play hoofball in LLM. Even with Stalybridge he creates overlaps, uses creative roles like mezzala's etc. 

Why pick balanced mentality btw? 

[Experienced Defender]

20 minutes ago, Jommelb said:

I signed this guy btw, might have influence on how you would set up a different formation.

 

I don't understand the language in the screenshot (whatever it is), so can't tell you my opinion until I see it in English.

 

21 minutes ago, Jommelb said:

Why pick balanced mentality btw? 

Again because it's LLM. Being too defensive is risky because you invite a lot of pressure, but at the same time don't have players able to defend intelligently and withstand that pressure for long periods of time. On the other hand, being overly attacking is perhaps even riskier, because you may well leave a lot of space for opposition to exploit through quick counters and/or balls over the top. So balanced mentality (along with other settings) is there to provide as much balance as possible.

 

28 minutes ago, Jommelb said:

Yes he does different things, but he doesn't always play hoofball in LLM. Even with Stalybridge he creates overlaps, uses creative roles like mezzala's etc. 

Yeah, Rashidi is a tactical genius, but I would never dare to play so adventurously like he (often) does. Precisely because I'm nowhere near as good a tactician as he is (at least in the FM game), even though I'm not bad either 

[Jommelb]

My bad

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Jommelb said:

My bad

Well, this guy might be a decent AM if you used a 4411 system sometimes, or you may retrain him as a CM (I would suggest training him for either MEZ or RPM role) and play him as the more attacking of the 2 CMs.