Choosing your HOYD, what is the influence of preferred style and formation?

[Kick Wilstra]

So I have shortlisted 2 HOYD to replace my current one once his contract expires next month. One has Park The Bus as tactical style, and 4-2-3-1 DM-AM Wide as favorite formation with a direct play-style. The other one has Tiki-Taka, 4-3-1-2, standard. I'm playing with either 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-2-3 DM, and try to play a positive short passing game with high pressing. In terms of style I guess Control Possesion, Tiki-Taka, Vertical Tiki-Taka and Gegenpressung are all fine. Park the bus is however the opposite of what I want. However, the one with a preferred tactical style that fits my philosophy has a preferred  formation without wingers and two strikers. I'm a bit worried that if I choose that one I will get a shortage of winger and a abundance of strikers through my academy. Is that justified, or won't that really matter? Will have tactical style an influence of the type of players I get? Does a Park The Bus guy is more like to produce Anchor Man and BWM as DM, while vertical tiki-taka guy is more like to get produce a regista for example?

[Egecann]

I don’t know about preferred tactic or style but personality makes a difference. I look at attributes and personality. If i have a model citizen that means i’m never replacing him.

[jeid2000]

A HOYD is more likely to bring in players that will fit his tactical preferences. So if played a 442 and your HOYD preferred a Diamond, you're less likely (not unlikely) to get many wingers.

[Kick Wilstra]

I'm aware personality matters. I highly suspected preferred formation matters. What I'm really curious about though, is whether tactical and passing style matters. Will 2 HOYD's. both with the exact same attributes and preferred formations, but one with Route One and direct passing style preference and the other with Tiki-Taka and a short passing style preference bring in different type of players, for example physical vs technical like fast wingers vs technical inside forwards and strong NCB's vs more technically well rounded BPD's? That something I'm curious about. Would it be worth it take a slightly less talented one attribute wise because he has tactical preference similar to your own? I know I gladly pay a few attribute points for a better personality, but I'm wonder if I should do the same with tactical preferences (other than formation because I already do that). Will I get players that better fit my tactic, or just less talented players when I do that?

[BeerBaron]

 

This might be interesting for you.

On 14/11/2019 at 17:32, Seb Wassell said:

Head of Youth Development (HoYD)
The club’s HoYD is responsible for bringing Newgens into the club. He will influence what “type” of players are selected and can partially or fully pass on his personality to some of these Newgens. The “type” of players selected refers to a player’s position and style, for instance a HoYD with a preferred 4-5-1 formation and a Technical Coaching Style may produce more technically styled midfielders than another HoYD.
The HoYD will also influence the rare “freak” or exceptional Newgens that come through, modifying their ability and style.
This role is filled by the HoYD by default, however if none is employed whichever staff member is set to be responsible for youth development will fill this role.

 

Here is the whole thread.

I was surprised that the stats of the HOYD don't seem to matter as much as I previously thought.

[Seb Wassell]

15 minutes ago, BeerBaron said:

I was surprised that the stats of the HOYD don't seem to matter as much as I previously thought.

They matter, but it depends what you want him to do. Only bring through youngsters, train players, scout players, etc.

[wearesporting]

23 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

They matter, but it depends what you want him to do. Only bring through youngsters, train players, scout players, etc.

If you want him to only be the guy who brings players to your attention for youth intake all attributes are mute? All about personality formation and style? 

[Kick Wilstra]

On 15/11/2019 at 22:15, BeerBaron said:

This might be interesting for you.
...
I was surprised that the stats of the HOYD don't seem to matter as much as I previously thought

Yes it was, thank you. That is pretty much what I was wondering. So it is indeed worth it to get a less capable HOYD attribute wise to get a better fit with the tactical style you want to play.

So the JCA, JPA and WWY, the highlighted parts if you select the HOYD staff role, don't have anything to do with the quality of youngsters you get. That's interesting indeed.

[Seb Wassell]

23 hours ago, wearesporting said:

If you want him to only be the guy who brings players to your attention for youth intake all attributes are mute? All about personality formation and style? 

 

10 hours ago, Kick Wilstra said:

Yes it was, thank you. That is pretty much what I was wondering. So it is indeed worth it to get a less capable HOYD attribute wise to get a better fit with the tactical style you want to play.

So the JCA, JPA and WWY, the highlighted parts if you select the HOYD staff role, don't have anything to do with the quality of youngsters you get. That's interesting indeed.

They matter for influencing those freak or exceptional players mentioned.

[Kick Wilstra]

4 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

 

They matter for influencing those freak or exceptional players mentioned.

How often do these freak or exceptional player come by on average? Once every 3 seasons, once every 10 seasons?

[Chapman7]

Who would you say is best option to appoint as my HOYD. I play a Total football system or Vertical Tiki Taka as the game recognises it as. High Press, a 4-3-3 formation 

[BadAss88]

Samaden 

[Cloud9]

On 20/09/2023 at 13:09, Chapman7 said:

Who would you say is best option to appoint as my HOYD. I play a Total football system or Vertical Tiki Taka as the game recognises it as. High Press, a 4-3-3 formation 

I think Determined is not actually a great personality. Driven is Ambition + Determination which Determined doesn't guarantee (I believe it's high determination with below 11 ambition, which will be important in development). Both personalities can hide a fair bit. 

You could check his Media Handling for more info, but I would go for the Professional/Model Professional based on that.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Cloud9

[Chapman7]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

I think Determined is not actually a great personality. Driven is Ambition + Determination which Determined doesn't guarantee (I believe it's high determination with below 11 ambition, which will be important in development). Both personalities can hide a fair bit. 

You could check his Media Handling for more info, but I would go for the Professional/Model Professional based on that.

So are you saying none of those posted are quite great then with personalities taken into consideration? 

[Cloud9]

30 minutes ago, Chapman7 said:

So are you saying none of those posted are quite great then with personalities taken into consideration? 

The first two look like strong choices.

If you're able to attract as high quality staff as them, you might want to do the extra searching to find the perfect HOYD (I quite like a model citizen if I can get one). Those first two HYOD look like two of the best in the game anyways, so I wouldn't be too concerned. I'd go for the Model Professional personally, even though he doesn't exactly fit your tactical setup. You can mold the kids once they're in the door, and the good personality will seriously help them reach their potential. 

On media handling personalities I look for evasive or unflappable. Level headed is fine. Volatile, confrontational, and media friendly are potential red flags. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Cloud9

[Chapman7]

8 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

The first two look like strong choices.

If you're able to attract as high quality staff as them, you might want to do the extra searching to find the perfect HOYD (I quite like a model citizen if I can get one). Those first two HYOD look like two of the best in the game anyways, so I wouldn't be too concerned. I'd go for the Model Professional personally, even though he doesn't exactly fit your tactical setup. You can mold the kids once they're in the door, and the good personality will seriously help them reach their potential. 

On media handling personalities I look for evasive or unflappable. Level headed is fine. Volatile, confrontational, and media friendly are potential red flags. 

Okay thanks, yeah finding one with Model Citizen or Model Professional with the same preferred formation lol. What is it I should look for Personality, Working With Youngsters, JPA, JPP then any coaching is bonus along with formation?

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Chapman7 said:

Okay thanks, yeah finding one with Model Citizen or Model Professional with the same preferred formation lol. What is it I should look for Personality, Working With Youngsters, JPA, JPP then any coaching is bonus along with formation?

I would value the 3 attributes you mention/personality primarily and then look to the tactical style as secondary. Everything else I view as a bonus from there.

I would also look to make sure everyone involved with your u18 teams be of good personality, the other staff members personality will impact the personality of the young players as they are coming through. 2-3 years (until they turn 18) is a long time for the general personality to impact them before you're able to start mentoring them in the first team. 

[Rashidi]

On 18/11/2019 at 08:42, Kick Wilstra said:

How often do these freak or exceptional player come by on average? Once every 3 seasons, once every 10 seasons?

How often do you get 5 star players? When I play I first focus on my youth recruitment level, facilities and then finally HOYD not the other way around.  A HOYDs personality, attributes, world rep, coaching qualifications matter. However ignoring the rest of the staff is usually not a good idea. Since the HOYD affects outliers it’s best to have a well balanced youth setup that produces players who can fit into your system.

My setup is pretty focused and I’ve never had trouble producing world class youth players. The challenge really is attracting them, so the HOYD is never my first improvement focus.

[w_x]

On 20/09/2023 at 21:09, Chapman7 said:

Who would you say is best option to appoint as my HOYD. I play a Total football system or Vertical Tiki Taka as the game recognises it as. High Press, a 4-3-3 formation 

first two would be likely to retire pretty soon 

[Dotsworthy]

On 11/11/2019 at 22:16, Kick Wilstra said:

So I have shortlisted 2 HOYD to replace my current one once his contract expires next month. One has Park The Bus as tactical style, and 4-2-3-1 DM-AM Wide as favorite formation with a direct play-style. The other one has Tiki-Taka, 4-3-1-2, standard. I'm playing with either 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-2-3 DM, and try to play a positive short passing game with high pressing. In terms of style I guess Control Possesion, Tiki-Taka, Vertical Tiki-Taka and Gegenpressung are all fine. Park the bus is however the opposite of what I want. However, the one with a preferred tactical style that fits my philosophy has a preferred  formation without wingers and two strikers. I'm a bit worried that if I choose that one I will get a shortage of winger and a abundance of strikers through my academy. Is that justified, or won't that really matter? Will have tactical style an influence of the type of players I get? Does a Park The Bus guy is more like to produce Anchor Man and BWM as DM, while vertical tiki-taka guy is more like to get produce a regista for example?

If you don't have a U18/Reserves manager you can make him manage one of those teams, and make sure he uses your default tactic. They tend to change their formation preference to yours over time.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Dotsworthy

[Chapman7]

20 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I would value the 3 attributes you mention/personality primarily and then look to the tactical style as secondary. Everything else I view as a bonus from there.

I would also look to make sure everyone involved with your u18 teams be of good personality, the other staff members personality will impact the personality of the young players as they are coming through. 2-3 years (until they turn 18) is a long time for the general personality to impact them before you're able to start mentoring them in the first team. 

My number 1 option just agreed to talk terms looks most complete with attributes, personality, and second formation is same as mine, never considered the media handling style so not sure if his is good one or not

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, Chapman7 said:

My number 1 option just agreed to talk terms looks most complete with attributes, personality, and second formation is same as mine, never considered the media handling style so not sure if his is good one or not

I would say he looks exceptional  

Reserved does't tell you too much, but it's a positive media handling style to have. Indicates high professionalism (which we already know) + low controversy and not terrible temperament. Plays mind games is a staff only one which you can ignore I believe. 

[Chapman7]

6 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I would say he looks exceptional  

Reserved does't tell you too much, but it's a positive media handling style to have. Indicates high professionalism (which we already know) + low controversy and not terrible temperament. Plays mind games is a staff only one which you can ignore I believe. 

Had him in a save before think was on the beta but forgot all about him since and never got far enough to see what youth he could bring in

Looked at youth coaches last night and got my Manager as Englet I think his name was from Shalke u19's I believe it was but finding top coaches with top personality is not easy that's willing to join though 

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, Chapman7 said:

Had him in a save before think was on the beta but forgot all about him since and never got far enough to see what youth he could bring in

Looked at youth coaches last night and got my Manager as Englet I think his name was from Shalke u19's I believe it was but finding top coaches with top personality is not easy that's willing to join though 

I do my staff searching in two rounds

1. immediately after the end of season team meeting

2. right after staff contracts expire 

There's also a weird domino effect where you need visibility of those countries to find the staff there in your search/personality filters so getting a diverse staff early on in the save can be quite helpful. This also plays into getting to see scouts from all the countries you'll want to track etc. I use a giant anti personality filter on the staff search (is not balanced, is not loyal, is not determined etc) so I can see only the personality staff I'm looking for (Perfectionist, Model Citizen, Professional, Model Professional etc.). Fairly Prof, Light hearted, Resolute, Spirited, Resilient, Ambitious are all pretty solid too but you need to rely a bit more heavily on the media handling to see what's good there.

• Media handling is esp useful on personalities like spirited (high pressure). If they've got Reserved / Evasive they're a very good catch since you can guarantee the professionalism along with the pressure rating.

Here's a good resource: https://www.fmscout.com/a-guide-to-player-personalities-football-manager.html

Basically you're shooting for Professionalism, Ambition, Determination (in that order imo) and Pressure as a bonus. The holy trinity all impact the development of a player but determination I value the least since it's quite an easy fix through fining half a weeks wages. Ambition can be difficult to see since it's not a tell as often as professionalism, which is why model citizens/perfectionists are quite nice. Oh yea and Evasive is like the gold standard of Media Handling traits. If someone has it, I want them around the team. 

Good personality staff are tricky to find though  but make a big difference for player development imo. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Cloud9

[Stevie De Rea]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qbn_c7ZQNprDh7K4qcQgEdPJ1uYuRH9icDRtNGVEkL8/edit?usp=sharing

A good guide for personalities and media handling style I downloaded from somewhere last year. I can't remember where to give them credit.

You can work out who's best suited to mentor by seeing what young players are weak in what area, you'll now know what media handling style or personality you'll need the mentors to be and what mix of youth staff personalities and media handling style mix you want to shape the younger lads. in the u18s. It doesn't all need to be model citizens etc.

 

Edited January 13 by Stevie De Rea

[nick1408]

On 24/09/2023 at 03:52, Cloud9 said:

I do my staff searching in two rounds

1. immediately after the end of season team meeting

2. right after staff contracts expire 

There's also a weird domino effect where you need visibility of those countries to find the staff there in your search/personality filters so getting a diverse staff early on in the save can be quite helpful. This also plays into getting to see scouts from all the countries you'll want to track etc. I use a giant anti personality filter on the staff search (is not balanced, is not loyal, is not determined etc) so I can see only the personality staff I'm looking for (Perfectionist, Model Citizen, Professional, Model Professional etc.). Fairly Prof, Light hearted, Resolute, Spirited, Resilient, Ambitious are all pretty solid too but you need to rely a bit more heavily on the media handling to see what's good there.

• Media handling is esp useful on personalities like spirited (high pressure). If they've got Reserved / Evasive they're a very good catch since you can guarantee the professionalism along with the pressure rating.

Here's a good resource: https://www.fmscout.com/a-guide-to-player-personalities-football-manager.html

Basically you're shooting for Professionalism, Ambition, Determination (in that order imo) and Pressure as a bonus. The holy trinity all impact the development of a player but determination I value the least since it's quite an easy fix through fining half a weeks wages. Ambition can be difficult to see since it's not a tell as often as professionalism, which is why model citizens/perfectionists are quite nice. Oh yea and Evasive is like the gold standard of Media Handling traits. If someone has it, I want them around the team. 

Good personality staff are tricky to find though  but make a big difference for player development imo. 

How do you fine a player now?  I haven’t been able to find it since moving to FM24

[Cloud9]

23 minutes ago, nick1408 said:

How do you fine a player now?  I haven’t been able to find it since moving to FM24

Was removed on FM24 I believe due to being unrealistic and a bit silly in general. You can set goals for your players in FM24 but I'm not 100% clear how this translates to attribute development. 

Workrate/Determination are now higher value when recruiting, you can't develop them rapidly the way you could on previous versions. 

[crusadertsar]

On 13/01/2024 at 17:26, Cloud9 said:

Was removed on FM24 I believe due to being unrealistic and a bit silly in general. You can set goals for your players in FM24 but I'm not 100% clear how this translates to attribute development. 

Workrate/Determination are now higher value when recruiting, you can't develop them rapidly the way you could on previous versions. 

I really like the way it works now. Couldn't stand how in previous sessions you could increase young player's determination from virtually non-existent singe-digit value up to almost godly 20 in just a few years via mentoring and fining. Now it actually makes sense and players with high determination and workrate actually have great value that somewhat offesets some of their other weaker attributes. Like in real life sometimes you gotta give a hard-working player a chance over a pure talented player. Personally I will take Ryan Giggs over fickle Naymar any day of the week. Besides Ryan Giggs would work better in the tactical systems I prefer 

Edited January 15 by crusadertsar

[CapitalismReimagined]

On 22/09/2023 at 07:32, Cloud9 said:

2-3 years (until they turn 18) is a long time for the general personality to impact them before you're able to start mentoring them in the first team. 

There's a trick to getting your Senior team to mentor your U18 players. Is that still helpful? 

[Cloud9]

14 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I really like the way it works now. Couldn't stand how in previous sessions you could increase young player's determination from virtually non-existent singe-digit value up to almost godly 20 in just a few years via mentoring and fining. Now it actually makes sense and players with high determination and workrate actually have great value that somewhat offesets some of their other weaker attributes. Like in real life sometimes you gotta give a hard-working player a chance over a pure talented player. Personally I will take Ryan Giggs over fickle Naymar any day of the week. Besides Ryan Giggs would work better in the tactical systems I prefer 

Definitely, the changes are great this year. Less homogeneous players make the game richer. 

It's also part of the much needed financial rework, you could save your club silly money through fining half a week's wages. 

One of my only issues with the changes to player development is how it compounds how centered the game is on European, and specifically English players. This problem can be distilled into English players receiving 1. Positive Personalities 2. High PA That Isn't Nerfed From Poor Performance Over a Period of Years. On previous versions, these player's wouldn't develop consistently past 23, so leaving the PA high and dealing solely with the CA worked fine. A few examples:

• Jadon Sancho keeping his 89 PA rating this year is symptomatic of the problem (despite being at Man United since 2021 & now sitting at 23 years of age).
• Perhaps Sancho isn't the perfect example, as they've taken steps to reduce his determination. However, leaving English player's PA untouched regardless of performance opens the door to a host of imbalance problems. Marcus Rashford and Mason Mount are two other leading offenders. Their up and down performances over the years has never seen their incredibly high PA touched by SI. 
• Other classic examples of this are player's like Lewis Cook at Bournemouth, who sat at 85 potential w/a great personality well into his 20's on the back of a decent youth career. 
• W/ the dynamic development changes moving the development curve past 23, a lot of the top top real players end up being English. This has always been present on FM, but the changes have compounded the problem and opened the door for these (relatively) aging, high PA players to dominate.

Bit of a tangent but the top recruiting clubs IRL (Benfica, Brighton, Madrid etc.) are starting to break that European stigma of signing directly from South America. Whenever I have done personality driven recruitment in my own saves, I am disappointed by how Eurocentric my save becomes. Player's from South America are almost always given "balanced" by SI, and the new changes to development make it even harder to incorporate them into your squad. I understand that SI just doesn't know on a lot of these player's, but given the talent there and SI's ability to slap positive personalities on Nordic players it definitely undermines the authenticity of the game.

While the new development changes should open the door to more realistic player changes, it only does that for English player's at the moment. Having the personality a little more concrete is great for gameplay in general, but underpins an important issue SI will have to address & soon. 

13 hours ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

There's a trick to getting your Senior team to mentor your U18 players. Is that still helpful? 

Mentoring is important for developing players. I believe if they are influenced by the more experience player is based on reputation/squad status and less on their age itself. 

Imo the last few versions, mentoring has felt like a bit of a gamble in terms of the outcome. I now set up more controlled mentoring setups to try to ensure positive outcomes.

Either way you won't see overly drastic changes from mentoring to a players personality. 

Edited January 16 by Cloud9

[CapitalismReimagined]

11 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Mentoring is important for developing players. I believe if they are influenced by the more experience player is based on reputation/squad status and less on their age itself. 

Imo the last few versions, mentoring has felt like a bit of a gamble in terms of the outcome. I now set up more controlled mentoring setups to try to ensure positive outcomes.

Either way you won't see overly drastic changes from mentoring to a players personality. 

Do you start mentoring when they're in the U18 or only when they hit first team? 

[Cloud9]

14 hours ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

Do you start mentoring when they're in the U18 or only when they hit first team? 

They'll need to be in the first team.

Make sure everyone around your youth team setup has a good personality though, this will rub off on them before they reach the first team.

Edited January 17 by Cloud9