Do CCC:s Matter Less? Tactical Analysis/Questions

[andrisk123]

This is the first FM game I have struggled so much with - no matter what I tried it did not work. So I went through some threads here, found some tactical tips and reverted to a model I was succesful with in FM18 (or was it FM17?), with a narrow 4-1-3-2 shape (with a DM and three CM:s) as a base. I based the ideas on a tactic for FM19 I found here (can´t recall which thread though) and finally I had a tactic that seems to work. During the first season I tweaked it a bit, made a more defensive version of it for away games (there were two away games where I just collapsed and lost 6-0 and 4-0) and so on. But in general,the results were good and the football I produced entertaining. I tried a tip I hadn´t thought about before - keeping position specific instructions to a minimum. So, here it is:

As you can imagine, the big vulnerability is through balls over my high defensive line, which results in the opposition getting quite a lot of CCC:s. However, most of these are one-on-ones, and they seem to get converted at a much lower rate than I´d expect. At least from my recollection of FM2019, CCC:s were a pretty good measure of the expected result. Not any more (which is also something I used to struggle with on earlier saves - I had plenty of chances, but did not score enough). My season expectation was top 3, so I am often the better team and I finished second, one point from the winner, won the domestic cup and made the group stage of the Europa League, so all in all performed above expectation. However, I was conceding quite a lot of CCC:s throughout - which has me worried that the season was a fluke and the next season I will get clobbered, since the opponents will start to score from all of their CCC:s.

I had a closer look at the last 11 league games. I went 8-2-1 with a 17-8 goal difference. My possession was 58,5 on average (ranging between 51-65%), I average 14.7 shots (opponents 5.1) and 4.9 shots on target (opponents 2.7). However, when looking at CCC:s, the statline is 17-17 (and while I haven´t checked the first part of the season, I am sure I conceded even more CCC:s then, since I was yet to tune the tactic to a slightly less offensive variation for away games, also I made a variation where I sub one of the strikers for a DMC when looking to preserve a lead). 

When looking at the past 30 games, CCC-wise I am losing out 39-61, however I am 16-8-6 when it comes to results, scoring 48 while conceding 39 (including one 0-6 loss). The opposition basically never scores from assists from central positions (which is logical), only 7 assists combined, while 15 assists came from crosses and 11 from deep, which makes sense as long passes over my defenders is a very popular way for my opponents to score. 

All of this is normal and logical, but I am quite divided on what (if anything) I should to about it. As the tactic obviously works (have gotten good results against higher-rated teams in the EL, and often crushed similar stature teams in the domestic leagues) I am not sure I want to change it too much, but doing something about all those CCC:s would of course be nice. 

So, basically, after this long rant it all boils down to 1) if these stats are normal for the current ME and 2) what, if anything, I should to to mitigate the negatives of this formation?

With regards to 2), the logical things to do for next season:

- sign faster central defenders
- sign goalkeepers with high one-on-one rating

But is there anything I can do tactically as well to attempt to counter the many CCC:s allowed, or should I just take them on the chin as expected compensation for the fast-paced free-flowing attacking game that the fans get to see?

[Kick Wilstra]

I usually try to play an attacking free flowing game. In general if you play mostly on the opponents half you tend not to create as much CCC's but a lot more half-, or even quarter chances. I did a little experiment once and set up fluid counter attacking tactic next to my possession bases attacking tactic. Saved before each match and played it with both tactics. The result were pretty similar in general, but with possession tactic I had like 30 shots, 1 CCC, 3 half chances, I won 3-0, with counterattacking I had 10 shots on goal, 4 CCC, won 3-0. If have a lot of possession on the opponents half, in general that mean the area around the penalty box is pretty congested, so creating CCC's is more difficult. Counter attacks have a much bigger chance to result in a CCC, as there is much more space to play in. Basically the choic between a possession- and a counterattacking strategy is whether you go for large amount of low quality chances, or for a small amount of high quality chances. I go for the former because it has a higher entertainment value, but both can work equally well. As long as you see the football you like and the most important statistic, the final scoreline, is in your favor I wouldn't worry too much about that.

However, there are of course always things too improve in your tactic if you want. Just by looking at it I must admit that there are two thing i don't like about it:

1. It's completely symmetrical. In general I find that some a-symmetry creates more interesting movement patterns. One side a FB(A), other side a WB(S), one side a Mezzala, otherside a BBM for example.

2. Your whole midfield consists of runners. BBM, BWM(S) and RPM are all roles that basically move around the whole pitch. Which may be exactly what you want, but it means there is a risk that there are moments in the game that there's nobody to defend all that space, as they are all somewhere else.

 

[yellowforever]

I'm out currently so I can't really post a more indepth response, but you're right - CCCs are a far weaker indicator of dominance or performance in a game on this year's edition. It's taking time for me to re-adjust to this but I think it reflects real-life more accurately. In my River save I've gone 5/6 games in a row without a CCC using a similar shape to yourself, leading me to overanalyse the problem my tactic has, even though I may have not lost in that time. If you look at some of Rashidi's video (bustthenet on YouTube), he often mentions about looking at shots on target from inside the penalty area when working out how good your attacking performance was, and that's been my indicator for a while now. 

In terms of conceding CCCs, I think you're just going to have to take it with a pinch of salt playing such a high line. You're always going to concede 1 or 2 a game, much as Liverpool or Man City do in real life.

I'd stick to what you're doing to be honest, the tactic looks fine.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, andrisk123 said:

 

4 hours ago, andrisk123 said:

As you can imagine, the big vulnerability is through balls over my high defensive line, which results in the opposition getting quite a lot of CCC:s

 

4 hours ago, andrisk123 said:

was conceding quite a lot of CCC:s throughout - which has me worried that the season was a fluke and the next season I will get clobbered, since the opponents will start to score from all of their CCC:s

This tactic is a recipe for defensive disaster - both in terms of instructions and roles/duties - so I'm not surprised at all that you are allowing so many CCCs to the opposition. In all honesty, I think you should be happy that you are not fighting a relegation battle with a tactic like this. The fact that you are actually doing pretty well can probably be explained by this: 

4 hours ago, andrisk123 said:

My season expectation was top 3, so I am often the better team

 

4 hours ago, andrisk123 said:

is there anything I can do tactically as well to attempt to counter the many CCC:s allowed

Well, given that it's obviously the consequence of your tactic, you logically should try to address it tactically. The first set of tweaks I would suggest are these:

- drop both DL and LOE from much higher to just higher

- reduce the pressing intensity from more urgent to standard (default)

- remove the "Prevent short GKD", because you have only 2 men up front, meaning the instruction makes very little (if any) sense

- remove the "Focus play through the middle" because it increases the mentality of your CBs and DM and thus makes you potentially even more vulnerable to the balls over the top

- do not use counter-press all the time, but rather situationally (be particularly careful against the opposition of better or similar quality and reputation)

- change the DM's role from BWM into a more holding and stable one - such as anchor or HB or DM on defend duty

- given that you use attacking fullbacks on both flanks, I would suggest changing the outer CMs' roles from BBM into carrilero, since the CAR's main responsibility is to provide defensive cover on his flank

I don't know if these tweaks will solve your defensive (CCCs) problem completely, but they should at least mitigate it to some degree, making you (a bit) more stable defense-wise anyway. 

Good luck!

[Finners]

Whilst I'd never really encourage you to create a tactic that was deliberately defensively ignorant, it's definitely true that every version of FM over the last few years seems to nerf one on one's even more. 

I really don't get it. 

It's a bit of a FIFA style fix, a means of scoring is too succesful so instead of working to try and minimise those opportunities arising in the first place they just make it unrealistically weak. 

Obviously it'd be harder work overhauling the entire ME to reduce the number of one on one's in a game so they just make them worthless instead. 

Last year was hilarious as well with traits that might help like lobs keeper being utterly useless. Every one on one the forward would just dink it calmly straight to the keeper without drama. Amazing. 

I do love this game but I also do disagree with the people who claim your tactic should 100% replicate what's succesful in real life and not be preoccupied with treating the ME as different to real football. It just is. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Finners

[FMunderachiever]

3 hours ago, Finners said:

Whilst I'd never really encourage you to create a tactic that was deliberately defensively ignorant, it's definitely true that every version of FM over the last few years seems to nerf one on one's even more. 

I really don't get it. 

It's a bit of a FIFA style fix, a means of scoring is too succesful so instead of working to try and minimise those opportunities arising in the first place they just make it unrealistically weak. 

Obviously it'd be harder work overhauling the entire ME to reduce the number of one on one's in a game so they just make them worthless instead. 

Last year was hilarious as well with traits that might help like lobs keeper being utterly useless. Every one on one the forward would just dink it calmly straight to the keeper without drama. Amazing. 

I do love this game but I also do disagree with the people who claim your tactic should 100% replicate what's succesful in real life and not be preoccupied with treating the ME as different to real football. It just is. 

These sorts of posts get met with hostility from overly defensive posters, but i agree with you.

When building a tactic, you are almost happy to LEAVE strikers one on one, because you know chances are they will either skew it wide or shoot straight at the keeper, but you know if you leave a midfielder on the edge of the box with a chance to shoot from 20-25 yards without pressure immediately on them, youre in serious trouble.

so instead in the game, its really easy to set up a tactic where you sit a little deeper and exploit space in behind the opposition back 4, but then you concede space close to your goal and risk conceding a bucketload of long shot opportunities which are OP, OR you watch your pacey striker burst through into space and continually miss his one on ones.

 

 

[andrisk123]

Thanks for all the interesting replies, will get back in more detail later on (probably when I finish my second season). The start of season 2 has been insanely good, 9-1-0 with a 22-2 goal difference. However, when it comes to CCC:s, it is 11-11, but as long as I score more I´ll just go on. I did strengthen my squad in the off-season, however I have left the tactics unchanged - I basically use the extremely offensive one I posted for most game, but for away games against competent opponents (or when preserving a tight lead), I have a slightly toned down version (with a High defensive line, shorter passing and some minor tweaks). 

If I am a chasing a late goal, I will usually change the RPM to AP(a) and add "Get further forward" instructions for the BBM:s (with "Shoot more often" if they have good long shots stats), not sure if I can do more though since the tactic is so offensive in its default form.

[andrisk123]

So, I finished my second season. I used two tactics for the entire season - the one I posted earlier, and a slightly less offensive-minded one for tougher away games and against higher-rated opponents (although still very offensive, this version adds shorter passing, GK distributing short and slowing down pace, and "only" a high DL). I improved my team a bit, bought a GK with good one-on-one ratings, but otherwise made no tactical changes.

I finished first in the league with a 20-7-3 record and a 55-17 goal difference. Still allowed a lot of CCC:s, in these 30 games I created 38 CCC:s and conceded 30. So basically the same-old-same-old with through balls over my high DL. The assist chart is also very similar to last year, with four assists coming from deep and six assists from crosses, whilst only two goals came from assists inside the box and none (!) through the center. On the other hand, my assist chart is neatly distributed and also reflects a lot of touches inside the box: 

The season was a dissapointment with regards to the Euro Cup II, where I did not make it past the group stage, albeit in a tough group with Young Boys, AZ and Randers (I am playing with Hammarby in Sweden). Had no chance against AZ (lost 1-2 at home and 0-3 away), beat Randers 2-1 both home and away and split the series against Young Boys (lost 1-3 away, won 1-0 at home). However, in the final game Young Boys upset AZ to finish a point ahead of me. Basically it all boiled down to the away loss in a game I completely dominated (29 shots, 8 on target, 3 CCC:s, 62% possession vs 6 shots, 3 on target, 0 CCC:s). Tactically everything worked out fine, although the difference in player quality between our side and AZ was too obvious and for next season I will try to create an even more defensive variation (while still keeping the offense) for games like these, since I was destroyed away (0-3 A, 1-3 H) when facing a clearly better team and although the result is expected it is not as good as I´d like. With regards to CCC:s, I am way ahead of my opponents in contintental football, but this is due to facing some weaker teams in the qualifying rounds and creating 7 (!!!) CCC:s in my final game against Randers (ironically I barely won it, 2-1).

What this says to me is that a tactic like this is not a fluke and that it works well in the current ME. If I would have "lucked out" in season one, there should have been a backlash in season two, but it went even better than the first season (of course, my squad is also a bit stronger). Also, the tactic referenced in this thread seems to build on a similar mentality/playing style and while it seems to have been tested only with ManU and Real, the results are still very good. (FWIW, I based my tactic on a post about a tactic for FM2019 that I found somewhere in this forum, so I do not take credit for being a tactical genius or whatever). 

Anyway, I will make a more defensive version for season 3 and report back on if it worked or not.

On 29/11/2019 at 22:42, Kick Wilstra said:

1. It's completely symmetrical. In general I find that some a-symmetry creates more interesting movement patterns. One side a FB(A), other side a WB(S), one side a Mezzala, otherside a BBM for example.

 

Well, before reverting to this tactic I had tried a lot of different setups and none seemed to work well. I tried replicating a tactic I had great success with in FM2019 (4-1-4-1 with inside forwards and a DLP in the DM spot) to no avail, I tried different assymetrical options to no avail, and then I landed in this... and it worked. Also on FM2019 my most succesful tactic was a symmetrical one (FB/a and IW/s on both flanks), so I have a slight feeling that symmetry works better after FM2019 than before (I can´t recall playing symmetrical tactics before FM2019). However, this is only based on my own play so I might be (very) wrong.

On 29/11/2019 at 22:45, yellowforever said:

In terms of conceding CCCs, I think you're just going to have to take it with a pinch of salt playing such a high line. You're always going to concede 1 or 2 a game, much as Liverpool or Man City do in real life.

I'd stick to what you're doing to be honest, the tactic looks fine.

Thanks, it sure seems that way and for what it´s worth, it is actually how the team I manage (Hammarby in Sweden) plays IRL - they finished the 2019 season in second place, with a 75-38 goal difference in 30 games.

On 30/11/2019 at 00:20, Experienced Defender said:

This tactic is a recipe for defensive disaster - both in terms of instructions and roles/duties - so I'm not surprised at all that you are allowing so many CCCs to the opposition. In all honesty, I think you should be happy that you are not fighting a relegation battle with a tactic like this.

Well, season two was even better from all aspects, so I guess the large amount of CCC:s allowed is not such a big deal after all.

On 30/11/2019 at 00:20, Experienced Defender said:

I don't know if these tweaks will solve your defensive (CCCs) problem completely, but they should at least mitigate it to some degree, making you (a bit) more stable defense-wise anyway. 

Good luck!

I will try this in my new more defensive version for use against higher-rated opponents. Will report back after S3 how this has worked out.

On 30/11/2019 at 10:34, Finners said:

I do love this game but I also do disagree with the people who claim your tactic should 100% replicate what's succesful in real life and not be preoccupied with treating the ME as different to real football. It just is. 

Agree!

On 30/11/2019 at 14:36, FMunderachiever said:

so instead in the game, its really easy to set up a tactic where you sit a little deeper and exploit space in behind the opposition back 4, but then you concede space close to your goal and risk conceding a bucketload of long shot opportunities which are OP, OR you watch your pacey striker burst through into space and continually miss his one on ones.

All my previous tactics suffered greatly from my striker missing and missing and missing. Now I score quite a lot of goals, but don´t have as many one on ones. However, I created so many chances that the CCC:s aren´t that big of a deal, and most of my goals are from shots in dangerous positions anyway:

[FMunderachiever]

Im currently working on a tactic where im winning despite deliberately conceding 10-15 clear cut chances a game.

 

Im going to continue the experinent before posting the results but signs so far are very positive

[Enzo_Francescoli]

Well..

 

 

Something tells me fancy stuff like xG are no way to assess tactics this year.. It's only wins and losses.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Enzo_Francescoli

[andrisk123]

I have tested the tactic in this thread (with some variations - for example, using AP(a) and BMW(s) for the two central midfielders, or RPM(s) and BWM(d) when protecting a lead) for 4,5 seasons now with good results. Playing with Hammarby I managed to beat Real Madrid at home, for example, and draw with some other giant clubs, and won it all in Sweden as well. Then I moved to Bournemouth and while I struggled mightily for the first half season (2-4-8 record), my second season I finished in 5th place with a 19-7-12 record. In the last 35 league games, CCC:s are quite evenly spread with me creating 60 and conceding 64 (goals scored 46, goals allowed 44). 

So yeah, a tactic like this can work well also when not playing with a top team, at least so it seems. 

[Rashidi]

On 30/11/2019 at 06:20, Experienced Defender said:

do not use counter-press all the time,

This is a very important recommendation.  Counter pressing forces the players to step up and out of their defensive shape. So if your line of E  is lower then using counter press may only be advisable under rare occassions or if and when you know how to play with defensive line traps. When you set counter pressing up, your DM has to win the 2nd ball all the time, if the opposition is forced to clear the ball in a hurry.