Defensive tactics are useless

[Melvin Chia]

Please fix the defensive tactics. U know and I know it sucks compared to attacking tactics. Make defensive tactics viable. Like mourinho and Diego simeone. 

[Melvin Chia]

To anyone that denies this look at all the plug and play tactics they are all attacking. Wth

[sporadicsmiles]

Defensive tactics are entirely viable. Plug and play tactics are attacking because that is what people want. They want to win all games by multiple goals, break scoring records, etc. And they usually exploit something in the ME, such as overloads the AI defence cannot handle. This usually requires pushing a whole bunch of players forward at once, so they are by default attacking in this respect. 

I saw you had a thread on the general forum, which asked you to post here, with the defensive tactic you are trying. That way, people can give you advice on how to make it better, or how to play defensive football. It was not really to start a moaning thread here as well. 

So what is your tactic for playing defensively? What is your plan to launch attacks and score? How are you going to stop the opposition scoring? Defensive covers such a huge range that nobody can begin to help without this. I mean, tiki taka is at heart a defensive tactic, in that the keeping of possession is mostly done for defensive reasons - if you have the ball and the other side does not they cannot score. This is vastly different to, say, parking the bus and lumping a ball to a loan striker. Both a defensively oriented, but very very different.

So what is your version of a defensive tactic? 

[Mitja]

Anyone having proper defensive tactics? 

[sporadicsmiles]

48 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Anyone having proper defensive tactics? 

Define what you mean by that? The tactic I use typically has among the lowest goals conceded in seasons I play, but I would definitely not call it defensive. It is just defensively sound. I have plenty of modifications I make to my tactics when I want to see games out, which usually result in nothing really happening, neither I nor the AI creating anything. I guess it is defensive, but more just keeping the ball and doing nothing with it on purpose.

I have a counter attacking tactic I used last year to go half a season undefeated with a newly promoted side. It worked by sitting deep and hitting teams on the counter with fast forwards. It was bloody deadly. Only failed when teams stopped attacking me so much so I had to actually play football to score goals. Which went less well, as my players were not great.

Without someone actually explaining what they mean by defensive on this thread, you cannot get an answer.

[FMunderachiever]

5 hours ago, Melvin Chia said:

Please fix the defensive tactics. U know and I know it sucks compared to attacking tactics. Make defensive tactics viable. Like mourinho and Diego simeone. 

Defensive tactics are by definition likely to be less successful than attacking tactics, because if your basic premise is to concede possession and retreat on the pitch to allow the opposition forward, they will be trying to break you down and youll be trying to nick the ball off them and counter them.

Even though teams have had spells of playing counter attacking football successfully, its not a long term base strategy for a superior team to start with. Almost all good teams will try and dominate ball possession.

Teams who are not superior will be more likely to use defensive tactics and will not be as successful as, obviously, they are worse teams.

As the above poster pointed out, tiki taka can be described as a defensive tactic in terms of using ball retention as a defensive mechanism BUT the objective is also to work the ball into the box to score goals, it is not simply to defend, there is forward intent.

 

[pheelf]

5 hours ago, Melvin Chia said:

Please fix the defensive tactics. U know and I know it sucks compared to attacking tactics. Make defensive tactics viable. Like mourinho and Diego simeone. 

FYI, there is no such thing as a 'defensive' tactic. Every tactic has a defensive phase with the mentality and formation determining how the team attempts to defend. The lower the mentality, the more your players will attempt to hold shape and stand off the opponent whereas on higher mentalities they will be more willing to engage higher up the pitch and press out of their defensive shape.

The problem with playing on lower mentalities I find is that players don't realize that it requires a specific set of attributes to work well in the defensive phase. They generally tend to choose lower mentalities (like the AI) when they perceive themselves as the weaker team because they automatically assume that will make them more solid defensively. That way of thinking is flawed and actually if the team doesn't have the right sort of attributes to carry out a more passive style of defending they will often end up performing worse when compared with higher mentalities.

Additionally, by playing on lower mentalities the default instructions when attacking aren't set up in a way to exploit the higher mentality of an opponent, i.e. inviting the opponent on to you and counter attacking quickly to exploit the space they leave in behind. That is of course something I'd like to see change for the AI but a human player can create a tactic to do that if they wish. Simply sitting back and attempting to absorb pressure all game without any clear idea of what you will do when you have the ball is a losing strategy as eventually you will get broken down which is why it sometimes appears that playing on higher mentalities are better.

Among the attributes I'd expect to be strong when playing on lower mentalities are positioning, concentration, marking and decisions which are entirely different from those needed for higher mentalities such as work rate, stamina, acceleration and tackling. I'd also want any player in the midfield to have good defensive attributes as they are going to need to get back and help out a lot.   

Incidentally, neither of the managers you mentioned play defensive football, you can't be as successful as they have been by simply parking the bus every week. They just have a pragmatic 'defend first' policy, they see the importance of what the team does when out of possession. They correctly conclude that if you can keep goals out by defending properly then you give yourself a much better opportunity to win games but when their teams have the ball they expect them to play an attacking style reminiscent of a higher mentality. Last season, Atletico Madrid had the 2nd highest goal difference in La Liga and scored the 5th highest amount of goals which would not have been possible if they solely focused on defending alone.

Best Regards

[denen123]

6 hours ago, Melvin Chia said:

Please fix the defensive tactics. U know and I know it sucks compared to attacking tactics. Make defensive tactics viable. Like mourinho and Diego simeone. 

I don't totally agree with this. 

1.) No tactic is ever "defensive". Think of tactics as exploits & transitions.

2.) The best form of "survey" would've been asking people on the forum about good "defensive" tactic that have worked.

3.) Even with plug/play, certain attributes are required to deliver the optimum value of your tactic.

Just ask people.

Edited December 5, 2019 by denen123

[westy8chimp]

As others have said you need to explain better what you mean by defensive tactic. 

I've played a 442 with Central midfielders as DMs two different ways successfully now. 

With Bournemouth on Cautious mentality (so reasonably defensive shape and mentality).

And with Millwall on attacking mentality. 

Same shape... Completely different roles and instructions. Both defensively sound and successful. 

[Johnny Ace]

52 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I have a counter attacking tactic I used last year to go half a season undefeated with a newly promoted side. It worked by sitting deep and hitting teams on the counter with fast forwards. It was bloody deadly. Only failed when teams stopped attacking me so much so I had to actually play football to score goals. Which went less well, as my players were not great.

The answers right here!

The reason download tactics are all ultra attacking is because most players using them will want to manage a top team, the PSG's, the Barca's & the Liverpool's of the world, where the opposition will sit back & defend. Using a defensive tactic against them will produce a stalemate

You have to use a more defensive tactic at times where it's necessary 

[westy8chimp]

Quick vid from my current game. I'm the defending side, on attacking mentality. Never really look in danger, they can have the ball but my box is packed and I have midfielders behind the ball congesting the midfield. Can play like this as long as we need to until opponents make a mistake. 

Defend narrow

Lower defensive line. 

Back 4 with dlp-d and sv-s

 

[FrazT]

6 hours ago, Melvin Chia said:

Please fix the defensive tactics. U know and I know it sucks compared to attacking tactics. Make defensive tactics viable. Like mourinho and Diego simeone. 

I specifically asked you in your other thread to open a thread in here with as much information that you could give about your team and tactics, in order for others to help you.  If you dont provide this information, I will close this thread.

[Mitja]

3 minutes ago, FrazT said:

I specifically asked you in your other thread to open a thread in here with as much information that you could give about your team and tactics, in order for others to help you.  If you dont provide this information, I will close this thread.

Why close it? It turned into quality disscussion. 

[FrazT]

As always, it will be monitored.

[westy8chimp]

17 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Quick vid from my current game. I'm the defending side, on attacking mentality. Never really look in danger, they can have the ball but my box is packed and I have midfielders behind the ball congesting the midfield. Can play like this as long as we need to until opponents make a mistake. 

Defend narrow

Lower defensive line. 

Back 4 with dlp-d and sv-s

 

Same match... To show that the tactic can attack as well, 

W-a to sv-s to dlp-d to pf-a to tm-s back to winger attack..... Oooooosk

How can a team expected to finish 19th be so good in defence and attack!?!? 

 

 

[Mitja]

2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Define what you mean by that? The tactic I use typically has among the lowest goals conceded in seasons I play, but I would definitely not call it defensive. It is just defensively sound. I have plenty of modifications I make to my tactics when I want to see games out, which usually result in nothing really happening, neither I nor the AI creating anything. I guess it is defensive, but more just keeping the ball and doing nothing with it on purpose.

I have a counter attacking tactic I used last year to go half a season undefeated with a newly promoted side. It worked by sitting deep and hitting teams on the counter with fast forwards. It was bloody deadly. Only failed when teams stopped attacking me so much so I had to actually play football to score goals. Which went less well, as my players were not great.

Without someone actually explaining what they mean by defensive on this thread, you cannot get an answer.

Just normal defensive tacics like AI plays, catious or lower mentality, lower d-line, appropriate number of attack duties, use of counters. 

[Pedroig]

8 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Just normal defensive tacics like AI plays, catious or lower mentality, lower d-line, appropriate number of attack duties, use of counters. 

Well if you want "like AI plays" then use the defaults.  However, that is not usually "optimal".  Depending on the squad and your vision there are many ways to get to the goals (or keep them out of the goal).

1.  Mentality affects EVERYTHING else. TI's, PI's, Roles, PPM's, simply everything.  You can play a 6-3-1 on More Attacking and still be a defensive side with quite a majority of Defend duties and a couple of Support duties and no Attack duties.  Just expect to have a large squad to deal with the increase in suspensions.  If you play defensive mentality, I'd suggest upping the aggressiveness of the roles, so only 2-3 Defend duties, with a plurality of Support duties and 2-4 Attack duties.

2.  Formation is pretty neutral, a 5-3-2 is no more or less defensive than a 4-2-4, they just change where and what kind of defense you need to play to be effective. Where your LOE and DL are set, how much pressing you need to do, offside trap or not, etc.

3.  You don't need to tick Counter to counter.  It just lowers the threshold for the trigger.  I have only done counter-attacking football tactics in FM20 thus far, and I only have one with Counter ticked, that's my Hoofball tactic.  Play for Set Pieces on the other hand are NOT on only one tactic.

4.  Possession is a form of defense, play from back, short, high percentage passing, time wasting with the ball, and slow tempo are all ways to prevent the opposition from scoring.  Combine it with a stout defensive set-up and conservative shot taking, and you will see quite an uptick in the number of clean sheets you get.

5.  Define your goal.  Cautious or Lower mentality is not a goal.  Lower D line is not a goal, those are all methods to achieve a goal.  If your goal is 100% clean sheets, well that's not very realistic.  If it is to keep CCC under 25% and get a 33% clean sheet rate over the course of a season/competition that is a realistic goal, trying to get it every single game is not.

So in the end, you can start with a default, see how it plays, and adjust it so it advances the metrics towards the goal(s) you have set for your team/tactic/vision.

[Mitja]

31 minutes ago, Pedroig said:

You don't need to tick Counter to counter.

You need if you're playing on catious or lower mentalities. I'm not interested in playing defensive football with higher mentalities, it's not how AI plays.

[FMunderachiever]

Is this question more about defensive strategy as in....tactics that dont seek to use a counter press or high press?

[Melvin Chia]

Give me a minute i starting my saved game

[Mitja]

Can counterpress work with low d-line?

[sporadicsmiles]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

Just normal defensive tacics like AI plays, catious or lower mentality, lower d-line, appropriate number of attack duties, use of counters. 

Alright, give me some time and I will try to most how I did this in FM19. I have not done so in FM20 yet, I have been playing a save where I am always the bigger side at the moment. But it should work. I will try to make it as detailed as possible, and we can start a discussion around the ideas.

[rockpie]

14 minutes ago, Mitja said:

You need if you're playing on catious or lower mentalities.

No, you don't.

You can leave it unchecked and create a system with a Ball Playing Defender or Deep Lying Playmaker with the right PPMs + Player Instructions for them to be More Direct and Take More Risks with their passing in comparison to the rest of your team, combined with an Advanced Forward and attacking wide players who (again) would have the right PPMs and player instructions to take advantage of those passes.

There are multiple ways to achieve the type of football you want. Most people don't spend the time experimenting with all the various combinations available.

Edited December 5, 2019 by rockpie

[FMunderachiever]

2 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Can counterpress work with low d-line?

it seems counter intuitive as a low defensive line is associated with keeping a low, compact block.

Youre trying to defend as a unit that is difficult to break down.

If you counter press, players are going to try and close down, so your own shape will be disrupted.

You risk giving your opponent space to pass the ball around you. If theyre better than you they probably will create chances this way

[Melvin Chia]

I biggest gripe is with the cautious mentality. it just cant win better than positive which inaccurate. I truely believe a defensive team will win against offensive teams. Look at mourinho and how many trophies he won. He able to play defensive first then try find a way to exploit the opponent weakness. I can't do it in this game. Take for example i was playing Napoli away and I won using positive tactics. Manage draw or best a 1-0 victory using a cautious strategy. All else being the same I just kept replaying the match. 

And also why is the assman asking me to change to positive tactics instead of cautious considering we playing a top team away. Its just unrealistic. They need to make defensive tactics viable but they can't do it.

[Melvin Chia]

Btw thanks for all the replies, really passionate community. We just want the game to be better.

[FMunderachiever]

1 minute ago, Melvin Chia said:

I biggest gripe is with the cautious mentality. it just cant win better than positive which inaccurate. I truely believe a defensive team will win against offensive teams. Look at mourinho and how many trophies he won. He able to play defensive first then try find a way to exploit the opponent weakness. I can't do it in this game. Take for example i was playing Napoli away and I won using positive tactics. Manage draw or best a 1-0 victory using a cautious strategy. All else being the same I just kept replaying the match. 

And also why is the assman asking me to change to positive tactics instead of cautious considering we playing a top team away. Its just unrealistic. They need to make defensive tactics viable but they can't do it.

Just looking at your tactic, you are trying to counter yet you have no one attacking space

Your defensive tactic isn't working because no one is attacking

Edited December 5, 2019 by FMunderachiever

[Melvin Chia]

8 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Defensive tactics are entirely viable. Plug and play tactics are attacking because that is what people want. They want to win all games by multiple goals, break scoring records, etc. And they usually exploit something in the ME, such as overloads the AI defence cannot handle. This usually requires pushing a whole bunch of players forward at once, so they are by default attacking in this respect. 

I saw you had a thread on the general forum, which asked you to post here, with the defensive tactic you are trying. That way, people can give you advice on how to make it better, or how to play defensive football. It was not really to start a moaning thread here as well. 

So what is your tactic for playing defensively? What is your plan to launch attacks and score? How are you going to stop the opposition scoring? Defensive covers such a huge range that nobody can begin to help without this. I mean, tiki taka is at heart a defensive tactic, in that the keeping of possession is mostly done for defensive reasons - if you have the ball and the other side does not they cannot score. This is vastly different to, say, parking the bus and lumping a ball to a loan striker. Both a defensively oriented, but very very different.

So what is your version of a defensive tactic? 

Tactic above for your feedbacks.

[Melvin Chia]

1 minute ago, FMunderachiever said:

Just looking at your tactic, you are trying to counter yet you have no one attacking space

Do you mean attacking duties? I understand "the art of counter attacking" you should be able to play 0-1 attacking duties so that they can counter together

[FMunderachiever]

1 minute ago, Melvin Chia said:

Do you mean attacking duties? I understand "the art of counter attacking" you should be able to play 0-1 attacking duties so that they can counter together

Well, for example you've ticked pass into space, but who is running into the space to receive your pass?

You've got two inverted wingers, so these will cut inside and play through balls, but theyre both on support. so theyre cutting in and playing a through ball to who to run onto?

You've got a target man in your side, so either don't you want to play crosses TO the target man from wide (ie traditional wingers) OR you want your inverted wingers to slide through balls into an ATTACKING striker who will burst through?

Also, look at how many instructions conflict in your tactics:

Pass into space AND work ball into box

more direct passes and telling keeper to kick it short and work into box

counter yet slow the pace down

low defensive line yet prevent short GK distribution

be more disciplined, yet pass into space

 

Id think a bit about how many of these instructions are actually needed first.

 

I used to think micromanaging performances was the way forward, but it doesn't really work. Utilising players roles and natural tendencies in the forms of PPM's is best, with a couple of basic instructions to emphasise certain aspects of play

 

 

[Mitja]

13 minutes ago, rockpie said:

No, you don't.

You can leave it unchecked and create a system with a Ball Playing Defender or Deep Lying Playmaker with the right PPMs + Player Instructions for them to be More Direct and Take More Risks with their passing in comparison to the rest of your team, combined with an Advanced Forward and attacking wide players who (again) would have the right PPMs and player instructions to take advantage of those passes.

There are multiple ways to achieve the type of football you want. Most people don't spend the time experimenting with all the various combinations available.

Counter ticks different attacking aproach, you know countering - putting bodies forward. Otherwise you play catious possesseion game on lower mentalities.

[FMunderachiever]

Just now, Mitja said:

Counter ticks different attacking aproach, you know countering - putting bodies forward. Otherwise you play catious possesseion game on lower mentalities.

If you have a ball playing defender at one end, and a striker attacking space at the other, as a PPM your ball playing defender will instinctively try and find your striker with a pass when he can, without you needing to say to your whole team counter, or pass into space

[Robson 07]

7 minutes ago, Melvin Chia said:

Do you mean attacking duties? I understand "the art of counter attacking" you should be able to play 0-1 attacking duties so that they can counter together

I think your tactic is about to come under a little bit of fire.  I'll leave that to someone else .  To the part I quoted.  I'm not an enormous fan of that thread you refer to, although a lot of people are.  Personally I think you need runners from deep and not simply relying on the ME 'counterattack' trigger which is actually a bit 'gamey' and not realistic.  So, I think you should have a bottom-heavy formation and two or three runners (attack duties), that's just me.  

One more thing and it is on your tactic.  You are too passive in your pressing.  Press later or deeper, that part's fine, but you will need to press more than you are.  Can't standoff too much.  You simply win the ball deeper and then fly up the pitch.

[frukox]

1 minute ago, Robson 07 said:

I think your tactic is about to come under a little bit of fire.  I'll leave that to someone else .  To the part I quoted.  I'm not an enormous fan of that thread you refer to, although a lot of people are.  Personally I think you need runners from deep and not simply relying on the ME 'counterattack' trigger which is actually a bit 'gamey' and not realistic.  So, I think you should have a bottom-heavy formation and two or three runners (attack duties), that's just me.  

One more thing and it is on your tactic.  You are too passive in your pressing.  Press later or deeper, that part's fine, but you will need to press more than you are.  Can't standoff too much.  You simply win the ball deeper and then fly up the pitch.

Can’t explain it better than you did. Great job, mate!

[Mitja]

That's a strange looking defensive tactic there. Why didn't you use one of the presets and build from there?

[westy8chimp]

14 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Counter ticks different attacking aproach, you know countering - putting bodies forward. Otherwise you play catious possesseion game on lower mentalities.

Relying on automatic counters, rather than creating your own is very one dimensional and infrequent (entirely dependant on how committed your opponent is). If you want to counter, be proactive in your choice of roles and duties. 

[Robson 07]

8 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

One more thing and it is on your tactic.  You are too passive in your pressing.  Press later or deeper, that part's fine, but you will need to press more than you are.  Can't standoff too much.  You simply win the ball deeper and then fly up the pitch.

Here's an 'out of possession' screenshot from FM19.  That tactic played on Cautious Mentality.

Not a lot should happen until the opposition gets to the halfway line.  My striker is not going to hold them up much on his own and definitely not clicking 'prevent short GK distribution'.

However by the time the opposition is engaged the tactic becomes very disruptive.  Hassling, tackling hard and leaving them no space.  When ball is won get up the pitch quickly, runners from that midfield strata.

Note if you just sit back and then look to absorb pressure and not disrupt opponent's possession then you ask for trouble in this game.

 

 

[FMunderachiever]

7 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Here's an 'out of possession' screenshot from FM19.  That tactic played on Cautious Mentality.

Not a lot should happen until the opposition gets to the halfway line.  My striker is not going to hold them up much on his own and definitely not clicking 'prevent short GK distribution'.

However by the time the opposition is engaged the tactic becomes very disruptive.  Hassling, tackling hard and leaving them no space.  When ball is won get up the pitch quickly, runners from that midfield strata.

Note if you just sit back and then look to absorb pressure and not disrupt opponent's possession then you ask for trouble in this game.

 

 

And although I cant see the roles youre choosing for your tactic, the idea here would be (id assume) that the opposition are going to over commit with bodies sent forward into your "trap" of the two banks of 4 and holding player.

Your pressing and marking is then aimed at taking the ball off them, rather than passively trying to block them, by actively engaging the man in possession and forcefully challenging him.

On winning the ball back, youre then looking to exploit the space left behind.

MAYBE the striker is someone who is going to burst onto a direct pass himself, or maybe he has a role to come deep and hold it up so players can run forward from deep into space.

I would say this is an example of proactive defending that doesn't rely on a high press, which I believe is what the OP wants

Edited December 5, 2019 by FMunderachiever

[herne79]

27 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Counter ticks different attacking aproach, you know countering - putting bodies forward. Otherwise you play catious possesseion game on lower mentalities.

No, you don't.  You can but you don't have to.  A possession game isn't about which mentality you use, it's about the overall system and how you set up within it.  I'm perfectly happy at present playing a possession based game using the Positive mentality - well over 60% possession and 700+ passes per match.  How?  By looking at the overall system, not just one component part of it.

Lower mentalities are more passive, not more defensive.

[frukox]

5 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Here's an 'out of possession' screenshot from FM19.  That tactic played on Cautious Mentality.

Not a lot should happen until the opposition gets to the halfway line.  My striker is not going to hold them up much on his own and definitely not clicking 'prevent short GK distribution'.

However by the time the opposition is engaged the tactic becomes very disruptive.  Hassling, tackling hard and leaving them no space.  When ball is won get up the pitch quickly, runners from that midfield strata.

Note if you just sit back and then look to absorb pressure and not disrupt opponent's possession then you ask for trouble in this game.

 

 

This is what I do if I want to counterattack. A defensive tactic has to have ways for penetrating opposition defences by means of direct plays, deadly counterattacks, set-pieces, etc. unless your aim is to only play for the draw. However, you reduce your chances of getting the desired draw by defending passively. You’ll concede from cut-backs, long shots and crosses no matter how deep you defend because you are inviting too much pressure, which requires certain attributed to keep the ball away from the net.

[Mitja]

9 minutes ago, herne79 said:

No, you don't.  You can but you don't have to.  A possession game isn't about which mentality you use, it's about the overall system and how you set up within it.  I'm perfectly happy at present playing a possession based game using the Positive mentality - well over 60% possession and 700+ passes per match.  How?  By looking at the overall system, not just one component part of it.

Lower mentalities are more passive, not more defensive.

Please explain that to devs, why do all countering presets have counter on? Emmm..

(i get the thing you can but dont have to).

Edited December 5, 2019 by Mitja

[Mitja]

10 minutes ago, herne79 said:

No, you don't

yes you do. if you're not using 3,4 att duties.

[Robson 07]

8 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

And although I cant see the roles youre choosing for your tactic, the idea here would be (id assume) that the opposition are going to over commit with bodies sent forward into your "trap" of the two banks of 4 and holding player.

Your pressing and marking is then aimed at taking the ball off them, rather than passively trying to block them, by actively engaging the man in possession and forcefully challenging him.

On winning the ball back, youre then looking to exploit the space left behind.

MAYBE the striker is someone who is going to burst onto a direct pass himself, or maybe he has a role to come deep and hold it up so players can run forward from deep into space.

Pretty much.  The tactic is one I made for a game with Udinese.  It was devastating and success  only slowed a bit when my manger and team reputation grew and opponents backed off.  My striker was on a support role to further draw their defenders forward.  It also helped him link with the midfield and not be isolated.  But then when we got the opposition over-committed it was win the ball and off to the races.

10 minutes ago, frukox said:

However, you reduce your chances of getting the desired draw by defending passively. You’ll concede from cut-backs, long shots and crosses no matter how deep you defend because you are inviting too much pressure, which requires certain attributed to keep the ball away from the net.

Exactly.  I did not like playing any lower than a standard D-Line on a Cautious mentality.  When I tried it my defenders in that 'out of possession' screen start standing on the edge of their own area.  Too deep.  That's where long shots against begin to really hurt.  Also you're starting to leave yourself too much ground to cover when counterattacking i.e. too far to travel up the pitch.  Small margins but important nonetheless.

[Rashidi]

This is just a warning to anyone who enters Training and Tactics forum, and starts posting threads starting with a hyperbolic statement that is not grounded on fact. The thread will immediately be closed without warning.

[Wenger6]

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

Here's an 'out of possession' screenshot from FM19.  That tactic played on Cautious Mentality.

Not a lot should happen until the opposition gets to the halfway line.  My striker is not going to hold them up much on his own and definitely not clicking 'prevent short GK distribution'.

However by the time the opposition is engaged the tactic becomes very disruptive.  Hassling, tackling hard and leaving them no space.  When ball is won get up the pitch quickly, runners from that midfield strata.

Note if you just sit back and then look to absorb pressure and not disrupt opponent's possession then you ask for trouble in this game.

 

 

Great contribution. Very smart insight. 

[rockpie]

53 minutes ago, Mitja said:

yes you do. if you're not using 3,4 att duties.

If your logic is right, that means players will never make a short pass if you tick More Direct Passing.

But they do.

Or they will never make a through ball into space if you don't tick Pass Into Space.

But they do.

 

Ticking any Team Instruction only means that your team will look to do that thing more or less often.

The presets are there as guidelines only, to provide a general idea for people who don't know what they're doing  -- they are not the 10 commandments written in stone.

If you are here to learn and discuss, welcome & let's do that.

Telling everyone what they can and can't do, based on limited understanding of the game mechanics isn't going to get you very far though.

Edited December 5, 2019 by rockpie

[herne79]

47 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Please explain that to devs, why do all countering presets have counter on? Emmm..

(i get the thing you can but dont have to).

This isn't about the devs (not they need advice from me anyway) it's about someone struggling with defensive systems.  You've already answered yourself for the second part ("you can but don't have to") however to expand slightly: the presets are starting points, nothing more, to give people an idea of how we can go about setting up such a system.  Presets are there to be adapted and tailored towards our teams and players, not plug and play without change.  Further, you ask why countering presets have counter turned on - to encourage the ME to trigger counter attacks.

45 minutes ago, Mitja said:

yes you do. if you're not using 3,4 att duties.

This is taking my quote slightly out of context.  You stated "you play cautious possession game on lower mentalities" making it sound like that is how we must go about doing it.  I said that you can do it like that but we don't have to and that possession systems (indeed pretty much any system) is about the sum of their component parts, not just Mentality.  So yeh, we can build possession systems using lower mentalities if we want to, but we can also do so with any other mentality.

[sporadicsmiles]

2 hours ago, Melvin Chia said:

Look at mourinho and how many trophies he won.

Look how it always ended up getting him fired too! 

Looking at your tactic, you do not carry much of a goal threat. No players with an attack duty, so nobody is looking to burst forward when you win the ball back. This will lead to you defending a lot, but not getting anything going in attack. Or what you get going in attack will be through slow build up play. Things like slowing play down will actively hinder the chances you can get from counter attacking too. This is a tactic that looks like it is not even trying to score goals. This is why it will fail, because all defensive sides need to have at least one clear idea of how to score. 

Take a look at how I tend to set up for a defensive counter tactic. I went unbeaten for half a season with this tactic as a newly promoted side with no major additions in FM19. 

Let me explain the reasoning here. I have a lower line of engagement, a neutral block and no specific pressing instructions. We will look to drop deep, defend with compactness and frustrate the opposition. I do not want there to be zero pressing, however. I want my team to harry a little to try to force a mistake, a rushed shot, a bad pass. Whatever. Something to encourage them to lose the ball with many men committed forward. I will also get my wide players to mark the opposition full back, so they will drop deep if they are bombing on down the wings (which they likely will be). So I am defending with 10 men at almost all times. This is defensive football. 

Now look at the distribution of my attack duties. First and foremost, the DLF(A). He will stay deep enough to receive the ball from defence or midfield when we win the ball back. But far forward enough, and looking to immediately attack, so that he can immediately put the opposition defenders on the back foot. Then look at what is happening around him. The IF(A) and CM(A) are defending, but they will immediately look to go forward too (especially if a counter is triggered). That is one player on each side of him. The W(S) will also get forward (you could easily play a W(A) here since I am using man marking to force him to defend), to regain his position after man marking. So we have 3 players rushing forward in the transition, each of them into space. This gives the DLF excellent passing options. That forces the opposition to continue to react, they cannot fall straight back into their defensive positions. This usually leads to there being a lot of space, creating chances, and goals. Most goals are scored from only a few passes. This is counter attacking. The high tempo and direct passing are to encourage this. 

The goalkeeper distributions shouts may look weird here, but chances are if the keeper has the ball, we will not have chance for an easy counter. The opposition will have gotten back into position by then. This is instead to create a pressing trap. Give the ball to my CBs or FBs, draw players to close them down, and get the ball to a player further forward and in space (I am not trying to play out of defence). You can often bypass 4 players doing this, and create a counter attack directly. 

As I said, this was a very successful way of playing for me. My players definitely outperformed their abilities, and when teams started being more cautious and we have to come out and play football, everything went to hell quickly. 

The key thing to remember is that defence is not a goal in itself. You have to use it as a foundation for something else if you want to play with it regularly. Parking the bus can work, but only if you really think you cannot win or you want to kill a game. You must consider not just defending, but also attacking. Particularly attacking. I find it much easier to play like this, because your players do not need to create their own space. 

[Mitja]

5 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Now look at the distribution of my attack duties

Where would you put third attacking duty in 442 and 44112DM?

[westy8chimp]

6 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Where would you put third attacking duty in 442 and 44112DM?

Don't think too rigidly, he used 3, you don't have to, especially in a 442. But the concept is to have attacking avenues of some kind. A regista is a support role, but by his nature will completely change the dynamic of your tactic.

I played cautious with Bournemouth, regroup and hold shape. Low line of engagement, lower dline, short passing, low tempo, play out, defend narrow... Urgent pressing. 

But threw in a regista, a winger on attack and AF... and all of a sudden it becomes quite a dangerous attack. 

Defend with numbers behind the ball... Win it and play short safe passes until it comes to the regista and he will look for the killer ball to winger or advanced forward who are making aggressive runs.