Feedback/help with my Brighton tactics 4-1-4-1

[JamesC86]

Hello! I'm currently just starting my fourth season with Brighton & Hove Albion. So far I have finished 10th, 6th and 4th in the Premier League. However I feel like this season I have a decent squad and should really be trying to push for the title. I want to develop a system that can press high but not be exposed in defence, and also develop some nice passing moves on the ball.

I have started unbeaten and am top of the league after 2 games but the tactic isn't working too well with a low number of chances created.

I have included screenshots of my tactic and player instructions too and any help or feedback on how to improve the tactic would be appreciated.

Cheers!

 

 

[Angus Osborne]

I like PIs on the DCs to close down less to minimise holes at the back.

[JamesC86]

They’re the only two players I didn’t include as I thought it wasn’t too interesting but yes I have those PIs already set thank you 😊 

[yellowforever]

It's not bad at all mate. First thoughts would be that with that shape and a strong team you can afford to up the mentality to positive, or maybe attacking at home; especially as you don't have any 'exploit middle/right/left' or 'overlap/underlap' instructions. Aside from that my two thoughts would be:

1. Width. You're now one of the big boys, teams will defend compactly and deep against you. You have a narrow TI, both of your wide players are sitting narrow and your sole attacking width will be from your left back. It's not a bad idea having one full back very offensive and the other one sitting in but it will limit your wide attacking options.

2. F9 is a decent option with two wide players on attacking duty, but I'd also like a third player from a deeper position running forward. Maybe it's worth having a play around with a MEZ or CM on attack in that right midfield slot. You have a FB (S) on that side so you should be fine defensively. 

Just some suggestions, good luck.

[JamesC86]

Thank you for the advice! I’ll play around with your suggestions and report back. The false 9 was an idea I am trying because against stronger opposition I have a theory of playing Foden in that role (he performs it quite well) and a more defensive option in the left CM position. 
 

In terms of the right midfield slot I promised to play Almada in his favoured role which is as an advanced playmaker. Do you think keeping this role but attacking and with get further forward PI would work?

[Experienced Defender]

On 07/01/2020 at 19:28, JamesC86 said:

 

On 07/01/2020 at 19:28, JamesC86 said:

I want to develop a system that can press high but not be exposed in defence

With extremely urgent pressing and tight marking, I fear it's not going to work the way you expect. Because neither instruction helps to maintain solid defensive shape (plus the two don't really go hand in hand overall). 

If you want to press high, then you should go with a higher LOE, rather than maximizing the pressing urgency. However, if you opt for the higher LOE, then the DL should also be set to higher, in order to keep your vertical compactness at a decent level. If you have good defenders (with good/decent speed and strong mental attributes), then higher D-line should not be a problem.

Therefore, I would suggest the following setup of defensive team instructions:

- higher DL, higher LOE, prevent short GKD, counter-press (and default pressing)

Or:

- higher DL, standard LOE, counter-press and either Prevent short GKD or split block 

On 07/01/2020 at 19:28, JamesC86 said:

also develop some nice passing moves on the ball

Looking at your setup of roles and duties, you seem to be making the same kind of mistake many people do - combining the lone F9 with both wide forwards on attack duty. I understand what's your idea with such a setup of the front three, but the problem is that it usually does not produce what you hope for, especially if you are a strong/top team that needs to break down defensive opposition.

So instead of this:

F9

IFat                                IWat

CAR   APsu

I would go with this:

F9

IFat                             IWsu

CAR/DLPsu  MEZat

That way you would achieve more dynamic interplay and better variety both in the early build-up phase and final third (less predictable and hence more difficult for opposition to defend). 

Now it's pretty easy to imagine how the rest of your setup could/should be designed in order to provide both sufficient attacking support and proper defensive balance:

HB

WBsu    CD  BPD   IWBsu

SKsu 

So here it is:

F9

IFat                             IWsu

CAR/DLPsu  MEZat

HB

WBsu    CD  BPD   IWBsu

SKsu 

If you find these suggestions useful and would like to hear what changes I would make to your instructions (and why), please let me know 

[alanfishead]

Hi @Experienced Defender

Just curious as I'm running a similar system.

Would you still recommend the above if this was a flat 4141? I've got both MR/L as IWa with different PIs to offer the variety in attack. I can't get my midfield 3 to perform consistently and after being unbeaten in the first 8 games, I now struggle to consistently create chances.

The only difference in my setup is I use a DLF with roaming. I switch between an IWa and a Wa on the right depending on personnel. And finally, I use a CMs instead of the APs as I found that anytime I use a PM he just gets marked out the game.

Apologies if I'm hijacking the thread @JamesC86 but my setup is almost identical.

[JamesC86]

Thank you for the great feedback, really thorough and well explained to help me understand the workings of my system! I like the idea of using the half back and IWB together 👍

 

Anyway yes I would love to hear suggestions and changed to my instructions if you don’t mind! Thanks again

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, alanfishead said:

Would you still recommend the above if this was a flat 4141? I've got both MR/L as IWa with different PIs to offer the variety in attack

As with wide forwards, I certainly wouldn't play both wide midfielders on attack duty anyway (regardless of roles and/or PIs). 

 

1 hour ago, alanfishead said:

I can't get my midfield 3 to perform consistently and after being unbeaten in the first 8 games, I now struggle to consistently create chances.

The only difference in my setup is I use a DLF with roaming. I switch between an IWa and a Wa on the right depending on personnel. And finally, I use a CMs instead of the APs as I found that anytime I use a PM he just gets marked out the game

I would need to see a screenshot of your tactic as a whole in order to be able to offer any meaningful opinion and potential advice.

[alanfishead]

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would need to see a screenshot of your tactic as a whole in order to be able to offer any meaningful opinion and potential advice.

Here is my tactic as it stands. Just gone 5 games without winning! Sorry for poor quality, I'm using Chrome remote deskot on my phone!

[Experienced Defender]

27 minutes ago, JamesC86 said:

I like the idea of using the half back and IWB together

Basically, HB is a good role for the DM position when you have both fullback's bombing forward to support the play in more advanced areas of the pitch. While in "my" setup neither of them is on attack duty, they are nevertheless reasonably attack-minded by the very nature of the roles (especially WB on support). But as with any other role, HB requires a suitable player with proper attributes. So you still need to make sure your DM suits the HB role. 

 

34 minutes ago, JamesC86 said:

Anyway yes I would love to hear suggestions and changed to my instructions if you don’t mind!

Okay, so here it is (based on your description of what you want to achieve):

- In possession: shorter passing, play out of defence, be more expressive (and possibly work ball into box)

- In transition: counter-press (but not always, and certainly not against strong opposition)

- Out of possession: already discussed (see my first reply)

In terms of mentality, I think that the Positive would work better for what you want, especially considering your statement from the OP: 

On 07/01/2020 at 19:28, JamesC86 said:

I feel like this season I have a decent squad and should really be trying to push for the title

Alternatively, you can start with the Balanced mentality and then - depending on the situation/opposition - decide whether (and when) you should switch to the Positive or not.

NOTE: You are using way too many player instructions, most of which are absolutely unnecessary. Advice: remove them all. Use only those that pertain to the split block (in case you decide to go with the split block).

P.S: always pay attention to player selection relative to roles and duties.

Any questions/suggestions are welcome 

 

[Experienced Defender]

16 minutes ago, alanfishead said:

Based on instructions, it seems that you are trying to play some sort of counter-attacking football (lower LOE, higher tempo, quick distribution and counter of course). Am I right?

[alanfishead]

Just now, Experienced Defender said:

Based on instructions, it seems that you are trying to play some sort of counter-attacking football (lower LOE, higher tempo, quick distribution and counter of course). Am I right?

For the time being yes as I've got plenty of pace in the side. However, I'm trying to build a squad for a more progressive possession style but not quite there yet.

[Experienced Defender]

23 minutes ago, alanfishead said:

For the time being yes as I've got plenty of pace in the side

In that case - and provided you still want to use the flat 4141 formation - you basically need both the striker and one CM on attack duties (among other things). Their (optimal) roles would depend on what types of players they are.

I see that you play the lone striker as DLF on support. If he has the right attributes for DLF on support, then he should be able to play as DLF on attack as well (and I also assume he's fast). 

If so, the attack-duty CM could be CM (role) on attack for example. And then one of the wide midfielders can be IW on attack (the one further from the attacking CM).

So your potential setup of roles and duties could be something like this:

DLFat

IWat     CAR    CMat     WMsu

DMde

WBsu   CDde  BPDde   (I)WBsu

SKsu

You are playing on the Balanced mentality, which is wise and represents a good starting point IMHO 

So under the Balanced mentality - and taking your bottom-heavy formation into account as well - you could go with the following team instructions:

- shorter passing, slightly higher tempo (run at defence makes sense only if you have the right players to execute the instruction effectively)

- counter

- standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in (and possibly also tight marking)

Btw, you can use player instructions to tell the striker and CM on attack to close down more, so that you wouldn't be too passive when defending.

Of course, this is not a plug'n'play tactic (my tactics are never PnP), so it will probably need some tweaking depending on the situation. But it can at least give you some basic idea on how you can achieve a certain style of play using this particular formation.

[alanfishead]

8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In that case - and provided you still want to use the flat 4141 formation - you basically need both the striker and one CM on attack duties (among other things). Their (optimal) roles would depend on what types of players they are.

I see that you play the lone striker as DLF on support. If he has the right attributes for DLF on support, then he should be able to play as DLF on attack as well (and I also assume he's fast). 

If so, the attack-duty CM could be CM (role) on attack for example. And then one of the wide midfielders can be IW on attack (the one further from the attacking CM).

So your potential setup of roles and duties could be something like this:

DLFat

IWat     CAR    CMat     WMsu

DMde

WBsu   CDde  BPDde   (I)WBsu

SKsu

You are playing on the Balanced mentality, which is wise and represents a good starting point IMHO 

So under the Balanced mentality - and taking your bottom-heavy formation into account as well - you could go with the following team instructions:

- shorter passing, slightly higher tempo (run at defence makes sense only if you have the right players to execute the instruction effectively)

- counter

- standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in (and possibly also tight marking)

Btw, you can use player instructions to tell the striker and CM on attack to close down more, so that you wouldn't be too passive when defending.

Of course, this is not a plug'n'play tactic (my tactics are never PnP), so it will probably need some tweaking depending on the situation. But it can at least give you some basic idea on how you can achieve a certain style of play using this particular formation.

Thanks, really appreciate the advice and suggestions. Depending on the PIs and movement of the WMs would a Mezzala in the MCR slot be a good option?

As I said as well, I'm looking to build this into a more possession system eventually, would this shape still be optimal or would you recommend moving the wide men in the AM strata?

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, alanfishead said:

Depending on the PIs and movement of the WMs would a Mezzala in the MCR slot be a good option?

Mezzala on attack duty in MCR is an option, of course. Just make sure you have the right player for this tricky role. 

 

6 hours ago, alanfishead said:

As I said as well, I'm looking to build this into a more possession system eventually, would this shape still be optimal or would you recommend moving the wide men in the AM strata?

This shape might work for so-called defensive possession football. But if you want a more attack-minded possession style, I'd rather go with 4141dm wide in terms of formation. Roles. duties and instructions would also need tweaking.

[JamesC86]

On 08/01/2020 at 22:02, Experienced Defender said:

Basically, HB is a good role for the DM position when you have both fullback's bombing forward to support the play in more advanced areas of the pitch. While in "my" setup neither of them is on attack duty, they are nevertheless reasonably attack-minded by the very nature of the roles (especially WB on support). But as with any other role, HB requires a suitable player with proper attributes. So you still need to make sure your DM suits the HB role. 

 

Okay, so here it is (based on your description of what you want to achieve):

- In possession: shorter passing, play out of defence, be more expressive (and possibly work ball into box)

- In transition: counter-press (but not always, and certainly not against strong opposition)

- Out of possession: already discussed (see my first reply)

In terms of mentality, I think that the Positive would work better for what you want, especially considering your statement from the OP: 

Alternatively, you can start with the Balanced mentality and then - depending on the situation/opposition - decide whether (and when) you should switch to the Positive or not.

NOTE: You are using way too many player instructions, most of which are absolutely unnecessary. Advice: remove them all. Use only those that pertain to the split block (in case you decide to go with the split block).

P.S: always pay attention to player selection relative to roles and duties.

Any questions/suggestions are welcome 

 

Ok thought it was time to report back! The changes you suggested are incredible, massive difference in the way the team plays. The main thing that is noticeable is I’m very stable defensively, I have only conceded 4 PL goals in the first 11 games. Attacking is something similar, I look dangerous but patient with the ball, overall sitting top of the league with 9 wins and 2 draws, including a few 4-0 wins, a 1-0 win away to Man City, and two nice away UCL draws (0-0 at Inter and 3-3 at Bayern)!

I made a couple of minor changes FYI. Felt I needed a bit more creativity in the centre of midfield so I did indeed change my left CM slot to a DLPs with Palacios playing there mainly. I have also removed all player instructions but kept “shoot less” for the two wide players as I thought I was having too many shots off target without looking for a clearer opening. Overall, great stuff and thanks very much!!

[Experienced Defender]

42 minutes ago, JamesC86 said:

The main thing that is noticeable is I’m very stable defensively, I have only conceded 4 PL goals in the first 11 games

Well, my username is obviously not just a coincidence 

[permanentquandary]

I noticed somebody said your team is one of the big boys but IMO looking at your players you have a midtable team that can maybe get into the top 6 if they are lucky.

So I think your team if doing better than this is probably overachieving!

[JamesC86]

10 hours ago, permanentquandary said:

I noticed somebody said your team is one of the big boys but IMO looking at your players you have a midtable team that can maybe get into the top 6 if they are lucky.

So I think your team if doing better than this is probably overachieving!

Well, to be honest, I find it hard to actually pinpoint where I should be finishing. The board want a top half finish. But I am 4 years in and some of those players have improved a lot in terms of their stats (for example Verschaeren, Tamada, Foden, Silva, Papetti) so I think not achieving CL qualification would be a disappointment. Maybe I don’t have the squad to win the title but I do like a challenge 😁

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, JamesC86 said:

The board want a top half finish. But I am 4 years in and some of those players have improved a lot in terms of their stats (for example Verschaeren, Tamada, Foden, Silva, Papetti) so I think not achieving CL qualification would be a disappointment. Maybe I don’t have the squad to win the title but I do like a challenge

If the board wants a top-half finish, then there is no need to put unnecessary pressure on yourself. Of course, try your best to finish as high as possible on the table, but do not be disappointed if you fail to qualify for Europe (let alone win the title) as long as you are meeting expectations.

[JamesC86]

56 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If the board wants a top-half finish, then there is no need to put unnecessary pressure on yourself. Of course, try your best to finish as high as possible on the table, but do not be disappointed if you fail to qualify for Europe (let alone win the title) as long as you are meeting expectations.

I appreciate the pep talk haha. The main problem is the girlfriend... I’m from Belfast and she is from Brighton and is the only reason I’m attempting this task. She can be more scary than the board sometimes when evaluating my progress 😂