Is there something wrong with "possession play" in FM?

[AurioDK]

I have never played full possession, I have tried to mix things to make it as less predictable for the AI as possible. After winning the treble again last year with my Gateshead side I got bored, I switched things around for pre-season and decided for a passing game, I have the players required and should do well ... I thought.

Playing a standard 4-4-2 and working the ball into the box things couldn´t have gone more horrible and I think I am close to getting the sack, I have a conversion rate of 4% which is pretty much unheard of in football with twice the amount of shots on target than the top team ...I drew 1 game and lost 4 games in a row which a first with a 94-6  shots on target  in my favor, their keepers got MoM in all 5 matches while the rest of their teams got absolute crap ratings except the scorer.

But then I looked at the other teams, I saw M. City with a conversion ratio of 5% not doing any better than me, they too are playing a possession game based style. I then checked for passes completed and possession ratio, almost all teams with a high possession style of play were doing very bad except for Norwich, the latter doing just okay.

I loaded up a different old save to try a Newcastle side I had set up a while ago, what I did notice with Newcastle was pretty much the same although with slightly better results, this side isn´t nowhere near as good as my Gateshead side so  in some games nothing happened, lots of boring draws with almost no action.

 

The one thing I did notice in common with games was that the more possession teams have the less their conversion rate is, perhaps you have experienced something different?

 

PS: I am off to save my Gateshead side, things aren´t good though when three strikers in the same week wow to end their goaldroughts. The world champion and world striker of the year has a conversion rate of 0 in 34 shots on target .... FM hates me. 

[Experienced Defender]

On 25/03/2020 at 23:02, AurioDK said:

Playing a standard 4-4-2 and working the ball into the box things couldn´t have gone more horrible and I think I am close to getting the sack

First off, the 442 as a formation is not optimal for possession-oriented styles of football. It can be made to work as a possession tactic to some degree, but the formation itself is better suited to more direct tactical styles.

Secondly, the Work ball into box alone - just like any other instruction - does not have a "magical effect". It can work only if other elements of your tactic are set up in a proper fashion relative to that particular style of play.

But what may be even more important when it comes specifically to the WBiB instruction is that it can be very risky if your players are not good enough to keep the ball under pressure in congested areas of space (they need to be good both technically and tactically/mentally). 

For more advice, you'll definitely need to post a screenshot of your tactic. 

[MrPep]

Lol this guy says 4-4-2 not good for possession when Leipzig rampaged through defensive low block teams with crazy offensive output and beautiful football. 

[ElK15]

vor einer Stunde schrieb MrPep:

Lol this guy says 4-4-2 not good for possession when Leipzig rampaged through defensive low block teams with crazy offensive output and beautiful football. 

Leipzig has just 53% Possession. Which is way less than Bayern, Dortmund and Leverkusen. Furthermore they play at least half of their games in some variations of 3-5-2 which is obvious better as a possesion tactic. When you are on a vendetta against someone you should get your facts straight.

Edited March 27, 2020 by ElK15

[Guest]

Wanna take part in this thread

Here is my tactic

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Vinay17 said:

Wanna take part in this thread

Here is my tactic

Okay, but what's the point? You just posted a screenshot of your tactic without any further explanation. So we don't know whether you posted the tactic as an example of a successful possession system in order to help the OP, or for some other reason.

In case you want to hear other people's opinion on your tactic or would like to get some tactical advice and help, then you need to start your own separate thread.

[PRT78]

I have had some success with a possession based 4-4-2

Set up with inspiration from Marcelo Bielsa Leeds set up in FM20

Problem I have is front two set up. I have gone with two Pressing forwards. The PF on support duty doesn't get into the game and rarely scores or assists.

[MrPep]

On 27/03/2020 at 01:14, ElK15 said:

Leipzig has just 53% Possession. Which is way less than Bayern, Dortmund and Leverkusen. Furthermore they play at least half of their games in some variations of 3-5-2 which is obvious better as a possesion tactic. When you are on a vendetta against someone you should get your facts straight.

Lmao people are really clueless and even like that. Just because you go on whoscored or whatever and it says 3-5-2 you aren't smart. I watch every single of their games. I'm not talking about since January where they have Angelino as Wing Back. I'm talking about the stretch after Freiburg loss they only played bad teams and Dortmund in the league and absolutely destroyed everyone with 4-4-2 "possession with intent" football. Could've won 6-7:0 against Paderborn and Cologne as well if they played seriously more than 30 minutes.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Experienced Defender
abusive language

[sporadicsmiles]

19 minutes ago, MrPep said:

Lmao people are really clueless and even like that. Just because you go on whoscored or whatever and it says 3-5-2 you aren't smart. I watch every single of their games. I'm not talking about since January where they have Angelino as Wing Back. I'm talking about the stretch after Freiburg loss they only played bad teams and Dortmund in the league and absolutely destroyed everyone with 4-4-2 "possession with intent" football. Could've won 6-7:0 against Paderborn and Cologne as well if they played seriously more than 30 minutes.

So don't talk **** when you don't know better.

What on earth are you talking about here? Nagelsmann is not a possession oriented coach. He favours quick transitions and direct passing to create chances. RBL average a shade over 51% possession. So clearly this is not possession oriented football (Bayern are north of 60%). This season Nagelsmann has used both 4 and 3 at the back, so they are not specifically playing a 442 all the time. You can go and watch some games to see this. In fact I am pretty sure they played 3 at the back against Tottenham in the 3-0 win in the UCL. You have to watch just a little bit of RBL to see they are a vertical side, who want to get the ball forward as quickly as they can. Which, incidentally, is perfect for a 442. If you are going to throw shade at other users, at least understand the thing you are trying to talk about. 

So would you like a reason why the 442 is not really great for a possession setup? It is quite obvious. You want strong midfield support and lots of passing options. In a 442, you do not have that so much. You would want to drop a striker back to get involved, at which point you are moving to a 4231. You can make a possession based tactic with a 442 if you want, but there are better ways to do it. 

Why is it good for vertical passing styles? Well, you have two strikers, and any two striker system is going to be good vertically. Two players for the defenders to deal with, more options for moving forwards, more players moving and creating space for themselves and each other. While there is no set rule on which formation to use for which style, there are certain styles favoured by certain formations. 

Now I have dealt with that nonsense, my question to the OP is this. Why do you want to play with a passing style? What type of passing style? What do you want to gain from your possession?

These are important questions. It is not hard to rack up huge passing numbers in FM20, but it is harder to have those passes in a dangerous part of the pitch. So the question is what do you want to achieve by the possession you create? Is it purely defensive (they cannot score if you have the ball). Are you trying to break down defensive sides with overloads, player movement and side to side passes? If you can define what you want to achieve, usually the path to achieve it also becomes clearer.

[westy8chimp]

I'm working on a possession project with Fulham. In first season I was hitting 75-80% possession in many games. On promotion I've changed tactic a bit to make sure I survive so will be a few seasons before I really go for it in the EPL... But this was my first goal in the EPL, first match away to Leicester. 25 passes and a nice finish from close to goal. 

My shot conversion is pretty random... Some games I'll have 15 shots with 10+ on target... Some games I'll have 40 shots and maybe just 10 on target. I don't think it's linked directly to possession, probably more to do with personnel and types of chances created.

 

[MrPep]

3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

What on earth are you talking about here? Nagelsmann is not a possession oriented coach. He favours quick transitions and direct passing to create chances. RBL average a shade over 51% possession. So clearly this is not possession oriented football (Bayern are north of 60%). This season Nagelsmann has used both 4 and 3 at the back, so they are not specifically playing a 442 all the time. You can go and watch some games to see this. In fact I am pretty sure they played 3 at the back against Tottenham in the 3-0 win in the UCL. You have to watch just a little bit of RBL to see they are a vertical side, who want to get the ball forward as quickly as they can. Which, incidentally, is perfect for a 442. If you are going to throw shade at other users, at least understand the thing you are trying to talk about. 

So would you like a reason why the 442 is not really great for a possession setup? It is quite obvious. You want strong midfield support and lots of passing options. In a 442, you do not have that so much. You would want to drop a striker back to get involved, at which point you are moving to a 4231. You can make a possession based tactic with a 442 if you want, but there are better ways to do it. 

Why is it good for vertical passing styles? Well, you have two strikers, and any two striker system is going to be good vertically. Two players for the defenders to deal with, more options for moving forwards, more players moving and creating space for themselves and each other. While there is no set rule on which formation to use for which style, there are certain styles favoured by certain formations. 

Now I have dealt with that nonsense, my question to the OP is this. Why do you want to play with a passing style? What type of passing style? What do you want to gain from your possession?

These are important questions. It is not hard to rack up huge passing numbers in FM20, but it is harder to have those passes in a dangerous part of the pitch. So the question is what do you want to achieve by the possession you create? Is it purely defensive (they cannot score if you have the ball). Are you trying to break down defensive sides with overloads, player movement and side to side passes? If you can define what you want to achieve, usually the path to achieve it also becomes clearer.

 

I watch every single match from RB Leipzig since 2014 season so maybe don't talk loud when you have no idea. Watch games vs Mainz 8-0, Cologne 4-1 and 3-0 after 25 minutes, Paderborn 3-0 after 20 minutes. Teams that just defend and give ball to Leipzig so games where they had big problems with Hasenhuttl and only won because of set pieces with Rangnick. This is POSSESSION FOOTBALL WITH INTENT or verticality or whatever at the very top. Nobody talks about Tottenham game, you know why they can play like this now because they can make Halstenberg as half defender and Angelino as Wingback. When they played 3-5-2 with normal CBs and Halstenberg Wingback against Bayern in August they got destroyed switched to 4-4-2 at HT and dominated should've won. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Experienced Defender
taking a shot at another user

[crusadertsar]

I don't think we can argue with your logic @MrPep

[MrPep]

2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I don't think we can argue with your logic @MrPep

Correct because I'm right. Just cause you dont like me dont change facts. I watch every game. Just watch goals and Highlights from Mainz game or even Hoffenheim 3-1. What is this if not POSSESSION WITH INTENT or what you like to call it. Counter Attacking? Against team that comes to you and wants to defend?

Cologne 69%

Berlin 62% AWAY

Dusseldorf 70% AWAY

Mainz 68%

Zenit 64% AWAY

Just because people like me and Nagelsmann aren't the average FM player who thinks one tactics wins them all games and they can also defend and counter attack at Bayern, Dortmund or sit back with early or decisive leads like in Paderborn or against Hoffenheim so they have average of 50 something doesnt change what they can do with bad and average teams and that's all because Nagelsmann is awesome possession and play with ball coach.

[sporadicsmiles]

1 hour ago, MrPep said:

Lol are you kidding? Why is this guy not banned for trolling?

This will be the last reply I bother to give you. You are not worth the time (and I suspect you will not be around much longer).

1 hour ago, MrPep said:

I watch every single match from RB Leipzig since 2014 season so maybe don't talk loud when you have no idea.

Then you simply do not understand football nearly as well as you think you do. 

1 hour ago, MrPep said:

Watch games vs Mainz 8-0, Cologne 4-1 and 3-0 after 25 minutes, Paderborn 3-0 after 20 minutes.

This has nothing to do with possession football. And even less to do with possession football in FM. You can understand absolutely nothing about how a team plays football from a scoreline.

1 hour ago, MrPep said:

This is POSSESSION FOOTBALL WITH INTENT or verticality or whatever at the very top.

Nagelsmith plays vertical football, he is not interested in keeping the ball. He is interested in scoring goals. If you watch RBL then you should know that. This is not a possession side (and I am not even being negative to them or you, I enjoy the way Nagelsmith plays). He is closer to Klopp than to Guardiola.

1 hour ago, MrPep said:

Nobody talks about Tottenham game, you know why they can play like this now because they can make Halstenberg as half defender and Angelino as Wingback. When they played 3-5-2 with normal CBs and Halstenberg Wingback against Bayern in August they got destroyed switched to 4-4-2 at HT and dominated should've won. 

So you admit they play with 442 and with 352, which to be honest I brought up because you tried to use it as a bludgeon against another user. So at least you admit you were wrong there. 

Anyway, leave off from hijacking other people's threads. I would suggest we get this one back on track by not indulging this behaviour any more. 

[zindrinho]

The entire Red Bull footballing brand is known world wide for hard working fast paced football, not possession based football, but why on earth are people arguing this in a thread about a FM player struggling and asking for help?

442 (aka Arne-ball) is not a good tactic for possession based football, as has been explained here by several members. Its a nice throwback tactic to the days where the groundsman didn't cut the grass at the byline, but can of course be modified to fit better for possession based teams. Wide midfielders can cut inside, a striker can drop deep, pack players in the middle of the pitch, have them run in opposite directions (CMs on attack, ST on support)

I tried to find a golden middle ground, I hate being countered on, and enjoy around 66% possession with this tactic

.