Help, shift of tactic needed !

[Cassius]

Despite having played the game for some times now, I really struggle to adapt my tactics to players. It is the case this time with my current save
I've arrived at Fulham with the club faceing financial difficulties. That + bad dressing room admosphere forced the board to make me sell most of the player the summer just when I've been hired.
Most top players wanted to leave anyway, but I had to end up buying out of contract and transfer listed players to remplace them.
I thought my recruitement was decent (even though only 15-16 players are "average good" in the side) but after 6 league games (3 D ; 3 L) I seem to be clueless on how to make them play well together...

This was my tactic so far :



And the team report :



While opposition don't get any CC chances, they manage to snatch one or two goals. On the other hand, I can't seem to create any decent chances. Even worst, I am struggling to create any for my forwards despite both of them being pretty good all-round :



One issue is the lack of very creative players (vision is not strong in the team), with only two gifted players on that side of the game :




However, I got:
- pretty decent jack of all trades CFs
- wingers and wingbacks who are speedy and/or good crosser
- DMs and CMs which are average offensively (10-13 OTB, finishing) but all possessing very high work-rate/teamwork/positionning
- Slow but tall and mentally solid CBs
- Good on there line (reflexe, one to one, aerial reach, communication) GKs


Taking all this into account, I thought about trying this tactic :



I am already unde the cosh thought, with fans and board expecting results very soon...So before getting ahead with my save, I thought I may ask for help and advice in the forum.

What would you do with this kind of team strengths/weaknesses ? Would this second tactic work better ? Would you do something differently ?

Any advice is welcomed! I took the job for the challenge......but expecting to succeed at it, not lose the job !

Edited July 7, 2020 by Cassius

[Experienced Defender]

Looking at the team report - which can sometimes be misleading though without separate analysis of the players on an individual basis - it seems that some sort of possession-oriented hybrid tactic would make most sense for your team. In any case, I would keep it as simple as possible. 

For example, something like this might work (not as a plug'n'play but a basic starting tactic):

DLFat

Wsu                                   IFsu

CMat     DLPsu

Ade

WBsu    CDde   CDde   FBat

GK/SKde

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - nothing

Player instructions - striker and CM on attack to close down more

That's what I would probably start with (although I don't know your players, so some of those roles might be different). 

[Cassius]

il y a 5 minutes, Experienced Defender a dit :

Looking at the team report - which can sometimes be misleading though without separate analysis of the players on an individual basis - it seems that some sort of possession-oriented hybrid tactic would make most sense for your team. In any case, I would keep it as simple as possible. 

For example, something like this might work (not as a plug'n'play but a basic starting tactic):

DLFat

Wsu                                   IFsu

CMat     DLPsu

Ade

WBsu    CDde   CDde   FBat

GK/SKde

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - nothing

Player instructions - striker and CM on attack to close down more

That's what I would probably start with (although I don't know your players, so some of those roles might be different). 

That is really SIMPLE but I'm willing to give it a try !

The team as 10 days off (international break), will have to friendlies to give it a try.

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, Cassius said:

That is really SIMPLE but I'm willing to give it a try !

Be careful who you play as the DLP, because Westwood's poor off the ball can be a big problem for that role, especially in a CM position. Perhaps you can play him as DLP on defend duty in DM and someone else as a BWM on support or carrilero in MCR. 

[summatsupeer]

I prefer the first setup to the second, the main issue for me is having two more defensive orientated roles in the midfield 3. 

I would prefer to use Westwood as a DLP-De in DMC.  This should allow him to find more space being deeper considering his poor OTB and he doesnt have to move around so much with his poor mobility.  The CM pair can then be some combination of CM / BBM / BWM to be the legs.

With an attack duty ST and W-At I'd want fast attacks so I'd remove some TIs to speed up the attack a bit considering your on balanced.

Dont know if it fits all your players but should do the ones you've shown.

[Cassius]

il y a 14 minutes, Experienced Defender a dit :

Be careful who you play as the DLP, because Westwood's poor off the ball can be a big problem for that role, especially in a CM position. Perhaps you can play him as DLP on defend duty in DM and someone else as a BWM on support or carrilero in MCR. 

Never thought OTB would be critical for a DLP on CM position (considering he would just stay back holding the fort while the RB and the RW would go up the field). Can you develop why this can cause a big problem? I'm intrigued.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Cassius

[wixxi]

Would imagine it's because although it is a static role it's still a playmaker in midfield so he's going to have to make himself available for the ball in a very heavily contested area. Obviously you don't want him marked out of the game so OTB will help him get open to receive passes.

[Cassius]

il y a 1 minute, wixxi a dit :

Would imagine it's because although it is a static role it's still a playmaker in midfield so he's going to have to make himself available for the ball in a very heavily contested area. Obviously you don't want him marked out of the game so OTB will help him get open to receive passes.

Makes sense! for some reason, I've always thought of OTB as moving left/center/right but always "GOING FORWARD" (silly me)

[Experienced Defender]

10 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Never thought OTB would be critical for a DLP on CM position (considering he would just stay back holding the fort while the RB and the RW would go up the field). Can you develop why this can cause a big problem?

Off the ball is important for any playmaker role, simply because playmakers are ball-magnets and hence need to be available for passes from their teammates. The higher up the pitch a playmaker operates, the more important OTB logically becomes. If a player cannot make himself available for a pass, he can be easily picked up by the opposition and what can happen is - you lose the ball and - bang! - a counter-attack by the opposition is suddenly there 

[Cassius]

il y a 1 minute, Experienced Defender a dit :

Off the ball is important for any playmaker role, simply because playmakers are ball-magnets and hence need to be available for passes from their teammates. The higher up the pitch a playmaker operates, the more important OTB logically becomes. If a player cannot make himself available for a pass, he can be easily picked up by the opposition and what can happen is - you lose the ball and - bang! - a counter-attack by the opposition is suddenly there 

Makes lot of sense...Almost makes me regret to get the player in the first place now! 😅
Aside from playing him in the DM strata, any other tweak to make him better ? That 8 at OTB suddenly worries me a lot more !
 

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Aside from playing him in the DM strata, any other tweak to make him better ? That 8 at OTB suddenly worries me a lot more !

If you have another player with better OTB who could play as a DLP on support in CM, you can play Westwood as a simple DM for example. He will not be a ball-magnet but can still play nice passes including occasional killer balls due to his trait. 

[Cassius]

Il y a 9 heures, Experienced Defender a dit :

If you have another player with better OTB who could play as a DLP on support in CM, you can play Westwood as a simple DM for example. He will not be a ball-magnet but can still play nice passes including occasional killer balls due to his trait. 

Having him straight away as a DM (+More Risky Passes) with a BBM and a BWM would be coherent then ?
Should I always have a Playmaker in the tactic ? (I sometimes don't but it seems like 90% of the tactics on the forum have one )

 

[thatdamgood]

Primarily your first objective needs to be points over style. Without seeing the whole of your squad it's hard to fully give an opinion however a 3-5-2 formation in the shape of 

                                CD - CD- CD 

                             WB     DM   WB

                                 CM      CM

                                       AM

                                        T

has always been a solid foundation for me. 

I haven't set NCB etc because I haven't viewed your squad. However from what you have shown me.

I'd play Westwood in a CM role. Freeman for me complicates the issue and would find himself on the bench more times then not. The young danish striker would ply up top in a pressing forward role.

Tactically, custom Tika Taka . Keep the ball, make the opposition work and be a balanced approach. 

I can go more in depth if you provide a squad breakdown 

[Experienced Defender]

13 hours ago, Cassius said:

Should I always have a Playmaker in the tactic ?

Having a playmaker is not necessary. I have had a number of tactic without any PM. 

[smplfc123]

On 06/07/2020 at 23:28, Experienced Defender said:

Off the ball is important for any playmaker role, simply because playmakers are ball-magnets and hence need to be available for passes from their teammates. The higher up the pitch a playmaker operates, the more important OTB logically becomes. If a player cannot make himself available for a pass, he can be easily picked up by the opposition and what can happen is - you lose the ball and - bang! - a counter-attack by the opposition is suddenly there 

Hi @Cassius, If you want a short real life example of this I recommend watching Jorginho's cameo from tonight for Chelsea against Palace. The lad came on in DM role and instantly controlled the game. Constantly available for the pass, constantly scanning what was around him when he was both in and out of possession. Beautiful to watch. Chelsea had 80% possession in the first 5 minutes that he was on the pitch, baring in mind he was introduced in to a game where Palace were pressing high and looking for an equaliser.

[Cassius]

Hi all,
First of, thank you for the help on this topic. Had a chance to play a couple of games with this formation and still struggle to get quality chances.



I can believe this to be down to a lack of quality in my players, however suspect I may have a lack of speed overall (most of the players acc/speed attributes being around 12-13).
Maybe the tactic is  wrong for the player ? I am even thinking of diching the 4141dW for a simpler 442 (though I have little experience of 442 😕)

 

Le 07/07/2020 à 12:06, thatdamgood a dit :

 

Thank you for the help ! I am really uneasy playing with 3 CB. It may be an optimal solution but I would rather try to make a standard back 4 work out (very biased I am, I know 😬)
As requested, here is the full details of my current 11 :











And my other players...














(a lot of pictures in a single post, sorry !)

Edited July 8, 2020 by Cassius

[RDF Tactics]

1 hour ago, Cassius said:

Hi all,
First of, thank you for the help on this topic. Had a chance to play a couple of games with this formation and still struggle to get quality chances.



I can believe this to be down to a lack of quality in my players, however suspect I may have a lack of speed overall (most of the players acc/speed attributes being around 12-13).
Maybe the tactic is  wrong for the player ? I am even thinking of diching the 4141dW for a simpler 442 (though I have little experience of 442 😕)

 

Thank you for the help ! I am really uneasy playing with 3 CB. It may be an optimal solution but I would rather try to make a standard back 4 work out (very biased I am, I know 😬)
As requested, here is the full details of my current 11 :

 

on your right hand side of the pitch, it doesn't look like you have enough to cause trouble and seems pretty easy to defend...on the left you have the winger staying out wide, stretching play with the CM (A) being able to move into forward spaces, but on the right i can't see much creativity that can happen apart from the simple overlap. I also find that LOE is a bit of a contradiction to the overall style of play and not aggressive enough

what is the style of play here? it looks like the opposition will have a lot of time and space to play football and also giving them the chance to get into good defensive positions when you're in possession  

 

[Cassius]

il y a 53 minutes, RDF Tactics a dit :

 

Well, one issue with this team is that I feel they are neither excellent or terrible at anything. Not fast enough to be a constant threat on break/direct play, not technical/smart enough for over control play...hence I'm not sure of the style of play I want for them...Would "Balanced" be a style of play ?

I've gone for a lower LOE in order for the team to be more compact while defending. I've could have gone with with higher LOE but I fear that my slow CBs get skinned too often.

From what I can see from the games, the team offensively lack option which end up with often :
- a player ending in a cul-de-sac
- a rushed pass that goes out of field/gets intercepted

Also, my DLFa is often USELESS, funny enough in two different ways :
- stuck up top all alone with the oppenent CB
- lost all the way down a flank, leaving 0 presence up front



 

[Cassius]

A few example on how plays goes...

IF gets the ball, pass it to CMa which send it to the LW...which runs until getting tackled



IF gets the ball, pass it to LW which runs alone into oblivion

[Cassius]

Here the CB passes the ball to BWM, which pass it to the IF, which ends...drum roll...running into opposition one more time


Another one. CMa gets the ball, pass to the the WB. Which runs with no good option. Loses the ball. Other team break and get a penalty from the counter. *sigh*

[Mainomai FM]

Hi buddy!

Sorry to hear that you are struggling. Would you be willing to try my tactic? I really think it would drastically improve your ability to create goal-scoring opportunities

 If you have some time, do you want to give this video a watch and let me know if you would like the download file? 

 

[Cassius]

il y a 2 minutes, Mainomai FM a dit :

A quick glimpse at the tactic makes me think I really don't have the players to pull that out unfortunately, sorry ! 😅

[Mainomai FM]

Oh okay, no worries mate! 

Thanks for taking a look regardless. In some ways it is similar to the way you are set up at the moment, I am sure that with a few tweaks we could get it working for you. Let me know if you change your mind and I would be more than happy to help where I can  

[ferrarinseb]

DM and BMW are both destroyer type roles.

                      CM(A)            BBM(S)/BWM(S)

                                  DLP(D) 

this might benefit you if you are using the same setup as shown earlier 

[JordanMilly]

1 hour ago, Mainomai FM said:

Hi buddy!

Sorry to hear that you are struggling. Would you be willing to try my tactic? I really think it would drastically improve your ability to create goal-scoring opportunities

 If you have some time, do you want to give this video a watch and let me know if you would like the download file? 

 

Advertising your Youtube channel isn't allowed outside of the FM Channels, Streams + Community Links subforum. If you'd like to share your tactic for the OP to try, please post the tactic up here, thanks.

[Mainomai FM]

3 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Advertising your Youtube channel isn't allowed outside of the FM Channels, Streams + Community Links subforum. If you'd like to share your tactic for the OP to try, please post the tactic up here, thanks.

Apologies, I didn't mean to break any rules - just wanted to help someone out 👍

[summatsupeer]

Looking at those images and what you've said it sounds like the front 3 are isolated and lack options so some ideas (not suggestion do all of them!):

1. Narrower Width - Get them closer especially if want them to do Shorter Passing.
2. IF or W to attack duty so they start higher and offer a threat when the other is dribbling.
3. Give the MCR a bit more freedom as CM-Su so he can support the front 3 more.
4. Higher D-Line so they push up when you have the ball so they're closer to the forwards.
5. Overlap Right - This should make the AMR more patient and the DR push up earlier.  Risky considering the counter attack you conceded.
6. Change ST role to one thats more focused on earlier runs, got to make sure he gets supply through or will not get many touches! I think PF-At, AF-At, TM-At or P-At could all give more of a central/box presence depending what else you want him to do.

A separate thing is the previously mentioned Westwood, looking at the players I'd use him as the DLP-De to control the game from deep.  Maybe if he gets more of the ball and a bit more freedom to use it as he likes it could start better attacks.

Need to decide if any of these fit your team then see if they have the desired effect.

Edited July 8, 2020 by summatsupeer

[Rashidi]

I agree with @summatsupeer as well, your attack is fairly isolated.

You have a winger looking to create chances but there is an IF(S) who doesn't attack space early. You also have a player who is on the shoulder of the defence applying pressure. On top of that you are passing relatively short. At least one of these two roles needs to be on attack. The Winger is naturally a good idea, he could bomb down the flanks, but this means that you are only going to create chances on the break. Another alternative is an IW(S) and an IF(A) or a W(S) and an IF, with a PF either on support or a CF(S). Now we have players who will drop off against defensive teams offering movement.

The MCR needs traits to be more effective or a slightly different role. A higher defensive line will bring the backline up and support your transitions more effectively.

How you decide to use your striker depends on the kind of attacking movements you are after, roles that drop off could create chances for others and in the case of summat's suggestion you could also do one with width attacks off a winger and have role that attack the lines. 

[beverage1982]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I agree with @summatsupeer as well, your attack is fairly isolated.

You have a winger looking to create chances but there is an IF(S) who doesn't attack space early. You also have a player who is on the shoulder of the defence applying pressure. On top of that you are passing relatively short. At least one of these two roles needs to be on attack. The Winger is naturally a good idea, he could bomb down the flanks, but this means that you are only going to create chances on the break. Another alternative is an IW(S) and an IF(A) or a W(S) and an IF, with a PF either on support or a CF(S). Now we have players who will drop off against defensive teams offering movement.

The MCR needs traits to be more effective or a slightly different role. A higher defensive line will bring the backline up and support your transitions more effectively.

How you decide to use your striker depends on the kind of attacking movements you are after, roles that drop off could create chances for others and in the case of summat's suggestion you could also do one with width attacks off a winger and have role that attack the lines. 

This is obviously not my thread but really useful advice for the 4141 in general. In your example about the IW (s) and IF / W(A) could the IW be replaced by a playmaker? to create a similar effect? 

[Cassius]

Hi all,
Thank you again for the help. @summatsupeer and @Rashidi, both your insights (+Ed previous help) really pushed thing into the right direction.
Despite the results not being great, players not always taking the right obvious decision, the attacking flow is improving. My CF even got one goal per game (playing PFa, PFa, then PFs)
However, aside from conceding two direct freekicks (), goals and opportunities for the opposition came more often than not from balls over our defense.
My defense may not be fast enough to play with the high DL while the higher DL help the offensive workflow. I fear moving it back would sunk our growing offensive improvement but at the same time I am having 3-5 heart attacks per game seeing the opposition forward running free for a one-to-one 😅  Any additionnal tweak ?

Here is the current tactic (not having IW in FM19, I went for the Ws IFa combination):



And the stats of three games with this exact tactic


Derby playing 4213 DM wide


Preston playing 4231 wide


Forrest playing 532 WB then 4231 Wide once we took the lead



Additionnal question @Rashidi : you said in your previous post

Il y a 16 heures, Rashidi a dit :

The MCR needs traits to be more effective or a slightly different role. A higher defensive line will bring the backline up and support your transitions more effectively.

What traits do you have in mind ?


Thanks again ! despite watching/reading a fair share of FM tactical content, I still have hard time with it !

Edited July 9, 2020 by Cassius

[summatsupeer]

3 hours ago, Cassius said:

However, aside from conceding two direct freekicks (), goals and opportunities for the opposition came more often than not from balls over our defense.
My defense may not be fast enough to play with the high DL while the higher DL help the offensive workflow. I fear moving it back would sunk our growing offensive improvement but at the same time I am having 3-5 heart attacks per game seeing the opposition forward running free for a one-to-one 😅  Any additionnal tweak ?

Are the opponents getting too much time on the ball to play these passes?  Is that the D-line / defenders issue or is it an issue with your higher players not engaging or not pressing urgently enough?  Are they just outnumbered so can't get near it because of using a DM formation?

[Cassius]

Le 09/07/2020 à 15:17, summatsupeer a dit :

Are the opponents getting too much time on the ball to play these passes?  Is that the D-line / defenders issue or is it an issue with your higher players not engaging or not pressing urgently enough?  Are they just outnumbered so can't get near it because of using a DM formation?

From what I've seen, it's rather the case of opposition having time to pick their passes, despite the D-line being higher.
One option could be to press more but I fear to disrupt my organisation/open new gaps to the opposition by doing so.

Typical example below. Luckily for me, Dunne makes a huge tackle AND the opposition forward speed is mediocre (12/13)...

Edited July 20, 2020 by Cassius

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, Cassius said:

From what I've seen, it's rather the case of opposition having time to pick there pass, despite the D-line being higher.
One option could be to press more but I fear to disrupt my organisation/open new gaps to the opposition by doing so.

Typical example below. Luckily for me, Dunne makes a huge tackle AND the opposition forward speed is mediocre (12/13)...

Looking at those images i'm disappointed in the CM pair letting him just cross the halfway line without engaging him.

Cause?

1. LOE? Probably not with default LOE on Balanced mentality.
2. Too Safe? Possibly on Balanced mentality with roles that don't naturally press more urgently or tackle harder.
3. Players too passive?  Aggression and work rate to keep there effort up and want to fight for it (aggression != dirtyness though).

My gut says #2. I'd probably implement a split block by adding more urgent pressing on front 5 and see if they reduces the number of occasions there opponents have so much time to pick those passes.  Whilst you will lose some compactness, currently they aren't playing through you, they're just going over the top so its actually possible to be "too compact".

[Cassius]

Soooooo....seems like tweak after tweak, the tactic really came together.
@summatsupeer your last suggestion was really spot on and worked like a charm with my two CMs bravery/workrate levels.
I added PI "Close down More" on the two CMs, "Close down less" on the two CB and DM (+mark tighter for the DM)

Really chuffed with the results and most of all by the fluidity of the system!
Even defensive-wise, we are objectively very solid. Over 13 games, we conceded 5 goals : 2 direct freekick, 1 corner, 1 penalty ! (cheeky bastards )

There will be some minor tweaks (obviously) pre or during games to adapt to opposition, but mainly here is the system (before/after changes) :





Fixtures from this season, with the progression following advice on the topic :



And the progression unfolding :





So I guess that's a wrap. Special big thanks @summatsupeer (but also @Rashidi, @Experienced Defender and @RDF Tactics) ! After years I'm still learning instead of rage-quit or reloading, thank you for sharing your insights with the community !

Now back to promotion chase ! 🏎️
 

Edited July 11, 2020 by Cassius

[summatsupeer]

Was nice to have images of what you don't like and want to change!  Makes things easier to assess the issue and suggest fixes compared to "I dont score enough".

  Hopefully the thought process I went through helps you analyse any future problems and possible solutions for them! 

[Mr_Demus]

On 10/07/2020 at 12:44, Cassius said:

Soooooo....seems like tweak after tweak, the tactic really came together.
@summatsupeer your last suggestion was really spot on and worked like a charm with my two CMs bravery/workrate levels.
I added PI "Close down More" on the two CMs, "Close down less" on the two CB and DM (+mark tighter for the DM)

Really chuffed with the results and most of all by the fluidity of the system!
Even defensive-wise, we are objectively very solid. Over 13 games, we conceded 5 goals : 2 direct freekick, 1 corner, 1 penalty ! (cheeky bastards )

There will be some minor tweaks (obviously) pre or during games to adapt to opposition, but mainly here is the system (before/after changes) :





Fixtures from this season, with the progression following advice on the topic :



And the progression unfolding :





So I guess that's a wrap. Special big thanks @summatsupeer (but also @Rashidi, @Experienced Defender and @RDF Tactics) ! After years I'm still learning instead of rage-quit or reloading, thank you for sharing your insights with the community !

Now back to promotion chase ! 🏎️
 

Hey mate. Just curious. Do you have any other PI's than the ones you mentioned here? 

[Cassius]

il y a 17 minutes, Mr_Demus a dit :

Hey mate. Just curious. Do you have any other PI's than the ones you mentioned here? 

Hey Demus,

Almost none, that's the beauty of it ! Only three here :

- less risky passes on the left CB, because Hutch passing/vision are not good (11/8)
- shoot less often on the IFa, because o'Dowda finishing/composure are mediocre (10)
(both these PI are specific to these players. A more technical CB and a more letal IF would have no PI.)

- cross from deep on the Left FB, so Bryan does not go all the way to the byline and cover a bit more his side (considering there is a CMa+Ws on his side).
I've also made him unlearn "get further forward" or any other risk taking traits so we don't get caught with our pants down on the left flank. He already had cross early which matches this philosophy.

If I feel like my PFa lack support, I can add sit narrower on the IFa just so he get a little less attention from the opponnent backline. 


Any other PIs I would have added, the system roles already take care of it so all good. A bit of circumstantial tweak can happen relatively to what I see during the game. But more often than not, I leave the tactic like that. It really feels and plays really well as it is!

[Mr_Demus]

20 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Hey Demus,

Almost none, that's the beauty of it ! Only three here :

- less risky passes on the left CB, because Hutch passing/vision are not good (11/8)
- shoot less often on the IFa, because o'Dowda finishing/composure are mediocre (10)
(both these PI are specific to these players. A more technical CB and a more letal IF would have no PI.)

- cross from deep on the Left FB, so Bryan does not go all the way to the byline and cover a bit more his side (considering there is a CMa+Ws on his side).
I've also made him unlearn "get further forward" or any other risk taking traits so we don't get caught with our pants down on the left flank. He already had cross early which matches this philosophy.

If I feel like my PFa lack support, I can add sit narrower on the IFa just so he get a little less attention from the opponnent backline. 


Any other PIs I would have added, the system roles already take care of it so all good. A bit of circumstantial tweak can happen relatively to what I see during the game. But more often than not, I leave the tactic like that. It really feels and plays really well as it is!

Thanks for the reply. Hope the save is still going well for you

[Cassius]

il y a 6 minutes, Mr_Demus a dit :

Thanks for the reply. Hope the save is still going well for you

Had to take a 20 days break for home works but it was going strong when I stopped (end of January in the save).
Can't wait to get back to it!