Brexit in FM21

[CM]

Personally, I just want to know whether or not this Brexit will stay in official release as it is right now. If so, I'd rather keep playing instead of waiting 10 days for this to be fixed. Response from developers could shed some light on this.

[Osvaldo]

Having played on slightly in my save (almost at the end of Jan 21) the work permit seems very odd to me.

I had an £8m 18 year old from the Turkish league turned down. He has 15 u21 caps and about 40 first team appearances for a top flight Turkish club.

I then have had no problem signing a 23 year old Uruguayan from the Argentinian league with about 10 u21 caps and a 20 year old Argentinian from the same league with no caps at all.

I assume this was because the Argentinian league is rated higher so they get more points, but I have also had a 20 year old £10m full USA international from the French league turned down so it would be useful to have more transparency on how the points system works, rather than just the red warning when offering a player a contract if they aren’t going to qualify.

[Domathon]

I find this extreme difficult mode interesting but like I said already having a large database with 200k players and only being able to sign 4/5% of them It will kill the game for many, this thread will get massive when people who get hard mode brexit realise their peril...

[Platinum]

8 hours ago, iownyou said:

Simple solution would be to allow the user to select from various options at the start of a save. It’s such a simple way to absolve the impending mass of complaints. 
wait until the PL and FA come to a final decision before you start finalising something as critical in the game as brexit. Which won’t actually be until February by the way. 
The way it has been done in previous fms is how it should have been kept for this one. 

This is the common sense solution and theres no reason this shouldnt be an option.

 

Separately when do we find out which Brexit rules our save has?

[Pantelas]

1 hour ago, francis#17 said:

This is the common sense solution and theres no reason this shouldnt be an option.

 

Separately when do we find out which Brexit rules our save has?

What I used to do in previous fm versions was save the game as soon as I started, then holiday till I get to brexit, see what the scenario is and then go back to my save

[HowzatFM]

1 hour ago, francis#17 said:

This is the common sense solution and theres no reason this shouldnt be an option.

 

Separately when do we find out which Brexit rules our save has?

It has been confirmed in another thread that there is only one Brexit scenario this year. 

 

[Pantelas]

1 hour ago, benhoward12 said:

It has been confirmed in another thread that there is only one Brexit scenario this year. 

 

One Brexit scenario, but from everything else said here, two different work permit rules? One considering only international apps and the other involving league reputation etc. Am i right?

[samdiatmh]

23 hours ago, CM said:

The difference is that, on FM 19 and 20 when we had hard Brexit, players could get work permit without a problem if they earned above certain wage (12K I believe) but now it is impossible. And as most young players in the world haven't played any international game and do not play in top leagues, it is literally impossible to sign them on this edition. 

 

gosh... it's almost like English clubs are aware of this IRL - there's not been 1 season IRL when hundreds of random Brazilians have arrived from overseas... and this is no different now

[jase19]

I have no intention of playing with English clubs in this FM.  Mostly because of Brexit, but also because it's been a while since I've explored the world... :P 

[themadsheep2001]

17 hours ago, samdiatmh said:

statement is incorrect, but I'll provide evidence

 

Jul 2028 of my holiday save (and my rules are the ones listed as the second post)

Man City senior squad (who won the Premier Division in 2027/28)
and Cardiff senior squad (who won League 1 in 2027/28)
I'd go further, but I'd argue that the League1 winners having 7 internationals proves the point here (it's kinda moot, especially when I started with a random Premier League team and saw them with a similar makeup to City)

shall I upload the file as well? or is that proof enough

personally I'd argue that this proves that Brexit is coded correctly - it's pretty much only top internationals that actually appear in the ManCity first team (with the lowest foreigner having 13 caps at the age of 24)
unless the beta's been patched? this file started at 09:09AM on November 11th (GMT+11)

 

I'd argue that this is arguably realistic to how it'll look IRL - it just means that you can't go to South America and hoover up 18yo regens for 100k each (which my understanding was was one of the main reasons of Brexit in the first place... stop random foreigners coming in when a competent English person can do the role adequately)

 

edit: and curiosity got the better of me too... so here's a list of all players that appeared for ManCity in the previous season (29 players in total, and only 10 are from "Brexit nations" of Wales/NorthernIreland/England/Scotland)
to say it's hard to sign players is factually incorrect... I'd put pretty good money on it being "challenging" because you can't got to SouthAmerica and sign up every 18yo that breathes

Excellent stuff. No doubt Si will have run their own tests too. Any running this and seeing issues should raise a thread. 

[Platinum]

Before there was a DB file that changed this. Can one be made again?

[Fritz13]

Work permits for coaches and managers is new 

have seen it being flagged on the contract negotiation screen that a potential new scout or DOF will be rejected on work permit rules due to not having the right coaching badges even though they are not a coach

.. so unsure where the bug is there.

[JordanMilly]

18 hours ago, benhoward12 said:

However this aspect of Brexit is going stop the signings of all players that haven’t played international games, is this really realistic?

Yes, because those are relatively similar to non-EU player WP rules IRL (where you have to hit a load of different criteria unless you're a regular international player) that we have right now, and the same rules would have to be applied to both EU and non-EU players coming from outside the UK following the 1st January 2021, otherwise it could potentially be a breach of race/ethnicity discrimination from the Equality Act 2010 (source: my job is employment and equalities law legal advice).

It is going to make bringing in foreign players harder, because the non-EU players aren't going to be able to rely on one parent or grandparent being an EU member state citizen in order to claim that citizenship to then come into the UK to play football.

Also, please keep references to third party paid-for software/editors off the forum please. Those are not supported by SI/Sega, and cannot be guaranteed to not break saves.

[HowzatFM]

6 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Yes, because those are relatively similar to non-EU player WP rules IRL (where you have to hit a load of different criteria unless you're a regular international player) that we have right now, and the same rules would have to be applied to both EU and non-EU players coming from outside the UK following the 1st January 2021, otherwise it could potentially be a breach of race/ethnicity discrimination from the Equality Act 2010 (source: my job is employment and equalities law legal advice).

It is going to make bringing in foreign players harder, because the non-EU players aren't going to be able to rely on one parent or grandparent being an EU member state citizen in order to claim that citizenship to then come into the UK to play football.

Also, please keep references to third party paid-for software/editors off the forum please. Those are not supported by SI/Sega, and cannot be guaranteed to not break saves.

Thank you for the insight! 
 

What criteria do we have to reach? I couldn’t sign Tonali on 120k at Spurs, when he had U21 caps, is this how it will be in real life? And in previous years I’ve been able to sign Non-eu players no problem, so what rules are you specifically talking about?

 

Such a big part of FM is such signing players and wonder kids and any save in the UK is now hugely impacted, when it wasn’t last year. Can you explain what insight has been gained since FM2020 to cause this change? 

Edited November 15, 2020 by benhoward12

[RioImmagina]

This will be the end for every save of not PL team.

I Imagine a (e.g.) brentford that comes in PL and... Who can buy? You can plunder scottish teams (if they'll have some decent players), but you will have a very low level team compared to PL teams.

Just a question: are this rules the same for Scotland, NI and Wales?

[boroinbishop]

14 hours ago, samdiatmh said:

 

gosh... it's almost like English clubs are aware of this IRL - there's not been 1 season IRL when hundreds of random Brazilians have arrived from overseas... and this is no different now

It's not just random Brazilians though, I was trying to buy players from all over Europe, not a single one of them could get a work permit, the quality of players available to me was so so poor. Every player my scout found that was rated good enough for the Prem (playing as Middlesbrough) couldn't get a WP, no option but to buy championship standard players and hope for the best. So i gave up on that save for now until full release and someone brings out something on the workshop to change it.

[dybing91]

First - I don't mind a challenge. I don't mind strict rules that promote local players... BUT! 
The current work permit rules post brexit in FM21 are simply too restrictive that it becomes gamebreaking for me. I've stopped playing the beta because of this.

After a long, hard campaign with Wigan in league one i got promoted via play-offs. Of course I have to rebuild a squad not at all strong enough for Championship, unfortunately I am not allowed to sign any non-uk player. Literally scouted hundreds of foreigners (internationals and regulars in top leagues), not one is able to sign for me.

What really annoys me is how vague the description of the so-called "point system" is (see attached image).

How does it even work?
When is it enough league or international appearances? Is it appearances the last year or last two years - if only the last year, then I guess the top clubs bench warmers (James Rodriguez from RM to everton for example) will never be able to happen in FM? What about league reputation, at what point is a league reputable enough? I could question every aspect of this. 
What annoys me even more is that I can't find any way to filter out players that won't get a work permit. My scouts keep having players that won't be able to get a work permit pop up. Last evening I spent hours scouting hundreds of players I later found out I couldn't sign because of work permit rules. It's so frustrating.  

As a Scandinavian I understand if this is SI's attempt to show stupid Brexit is, but it ruins the game experience for me. I don't understand how this adds to an enjoyable gaming experience in any way. 
 

Edited November 15, 2020 by dybing91

[limey150781]

I think it does change game on game but I agree, for teams such as Wigan or anyone bringing a smaller team up the leagues, signing overseas players has basically gone. You would still see signings like James Rod under these I guess due to the reputation of Madrid and his intentional experience. I've never been a fan of the guessing aspect of what will happen. Id rather it was left until it was 100% confirmed.

[Trucce]

I feel like it will kill off smaller clubs and the joy of managing them.

I hope there's reconsideration on some of the Brexit rules. I highly doubt the rules will be that strict IRL. Premier League and everything that ties together with it, is an important part of the English economy and I very much doubt that the government IRL would destroy it.

[Fritz13]

I haven’t played that far past Jan 2021 but is this very different from FM20 then?

[HowzatFM]

There is a couple of threads on this issue already, I couldn’t agree more with you. There needs to be a balance between Brexit rules and game enjoyment, at the moment most games in the UK are not enjoyable

[Icy]

I’m using the no brexit file from FM20 and I think it works as well for FM21, no brexit so far in my game.

I’ll want to use brexit in my game once it’s finished and it’s clear how it will affect football, not before.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Icy

[Dagenham_Dave]

It's not too much of an issue. You can literally remove Brexit altogether in the pre-game editor that comes free with the game on release. Or at least you could last year, I assume it'll be the same again. 

[Haiku]

8 minutes ago, Icy said:

I’m using the no brexit file from FM20 and I think it works as well for FM21, no brexit so far in my game.

I’ll want to use brexit in my game once it’s finished and it’s clear how it will affect football, not before.

This. It's about football simulation, not football predictions. Brexit or not, I don't believe they will put such a heavy restrictions on the World's greatest football league. There will be some foreign quota for sure, but the Heavy Brexit coded into the game is not possible in my opinion. 

[Icy]

The DB Edit from past year seems to work this year as well. Just paste that file from FM20 in the same folder and test it, in my save I haven’t seen brexit with it.

[Icy]

hace 1 minuto, Haiku dijo:

This. It's about football simulation, not football predictions. Brexit or not, I don't believe they will put such a heavy restrictions on the World's greatest football league. There will be some foreign quota for sure, but the Heavy Brexit coded into the game is not possible in my opinion. 

Agree, the PL money is above any politics and they will make exceptions to the common people rules as these are in every country for football players to get nationality faster etc.

[boroinbishop]

13 minutes ago, Icy said:

The DB Edit from past year seems to work this year as well. Just paste that file from FM20 in the same folder and test it, in my save I haven’t seen brexit with it.

I'd be interested in knowing how to do that if you have the time to explain?

[Yer Maw]

23 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's not too much of an issue. You can literally remove Brexit altogether in the pre-game editor that comes free with the game on release. Or at least you could last year, I assume it'll be the same again. 

That’s a lie.

[Tiger666]

Just now, Yer Maw said:

That’s a lie.

No it isn't.

[Trucce]

27 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's not too much of an issue. You can literally remove Brexit altogether in the pre-game editor that comes free with the game on release. Or at least you could last year, I assume it'll be the same again. 

But new/average players won't think of that and then they'll feel that the save is ruined and might not play for a while or ever again. I don't see that as positive for the game and I highly doubt that the rules will be that restrictive in real life. 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Trucce

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 minutes ago, Yer Maw said:

That’s a lie.

Must have dreamt myself testing it out on FM20 then. 

[pizzachips]

7 minutes ago, Yer Maw said:

That’s a lie.

for what its worth- I removed Brexit from my FM game  last yr. Requires a few easy steps in the editor as Dave mentions

[cris182]

9 minutes ago, Yer Maw said:

That’s a lie.

Would you mind explaining how? Because you are wrong

[iownyou]

So here’s part of the real life new work permit system which is really good, though remains to be seen if it’s included in fm. 

“ At senior level, an 'autopass' system means those with regular appearances for clubs ranked by FIFA in the top 50 will qualify automatically.”

 I had a look at the top 50 clubs ranked by FIFA and it includes the likes of Gremio, River Plate and Al Ahli. What this incoming rule means is that you should be able to sign players from these clubs who make a decent amount of appearances for their club regardless of international appearances. 

 

[Hammy_Alpha]

1 hour ago, Icy said:

The DB Edit from past year seems to work this year as well. Just paste that file from FM20 in the same folder and test it, in my save I haven’t seen brexit with it.

When I have tried to do it it says it needs to be tested and verified even though I have gone through the editor when I try to select it.

[HowzatFM]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's not too much of an issue. You can literally remove Brexit altogether in the pre-game editor that comes free with the game on release. Or at least you could last year, I assume it'll be the same again. 

I still think it’s an issue that needs to be addressed, many people won’t know about the editor or how to use it 

[RioImmagina]

23 minuti fa, benhoward12 ha scritto:

I still think it’s an issue that needs to be addressed, many people won’t know about the editor or how to use it 

You can easily find a "no brexit edit" on steam

[JordanMilly]

3 hours ago, benhoward12 said:

Thank you for the insight! 
 

What criteria do we have to reach? I couldn’t sign Tonali on 120k at Spurs, when he had U21 caps, is this how it will be in real life? And in previous years I’ve been able to sign Non-eu players no problem, so what rules are you specifically talking about?

 

Such a big part of FM is such signing players and wonder kids and any save in the UK is now hugely impacted, when it wasn’t last year. Can you explain what insight has been gained since FM2020 to cause this change? 

IRL, once the 1st January 2021 rolls around, even if England kept the exact same work permit rules as we have right this second, Tonali wouldn't qualify for a work permit easily. Why?

https://latitudelaw.com/news/the-fas-policy-on-non-eu-football-players-and-possible-implications-following-brexit/

Quote

• The applicant must have participated in a minimum set percentage of their home country’s senior competitive international matches during the two years (or one year if under 21) preceding the date of application. The percentage is based upon the following:
• International Team Ranked 1-10, must have appeared in 30% of matches;
• International Team Ranked 11-20, must have appeared in 45% of matches;
• International Team Ranked 21-30, must have appeared in 60% of matches; and
• International Team Tanked 31-50, must have appeared in 75% of matches.

The Rankings above are based on the official FIFA World Rankings.

He doesn't have the senior (not u21) caps required to automatically qualify. However, under the current rules, he may succeed via an appeal to the points system, dependent on the size of the transfer fee, his salary, etc.

However, IRL, the FA are currently looking at scrapping the appeal system, or at the very least removing the points on the work permit system that relate to transfer fees, salaries, etc, and purely relying on how much you've played for your senior international team, which league you're coming from, how often you play for your club, etc. This would indeed make it harder to bring in foreign talent, particularly foreign young talent. However, there's one thing you're forgetting....

That is the entire point

You may be able to bring in established internationals, but the times of English clubs being able to buy up any good 17-18 year old foreign players they want and getting a work permit because of the transfer fee and salary being high are over, and people are going to have to get used to it, the same way people get used to the restrictive non-EU player cap in Italy.

If you want to play in a country where you can just buy and bring in wonderkids from anywhere in the world without issues, you're going to have to manage a German team - no work permits at all there.

[Oswaldo]

I have almost reached the end of the first season in the PL. I signed 4 young players in Jan with the new Brexit/Work Permit rules, none of them had work permits.

After 120 days I reapplied for all of them (none had been out on loan, or had got any more u20 caps etc) all of them got a work permit. So seems like its worth just signing them anyway (if they will join without a work permit) and waiting the 3 months. It's annoying but not too bad with young players who wouldn't be in the first team anyway

[HowzatFM]

7 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

IRL, once the 1st January 2021 rolls around, even if England kept the exact same work permit rules as we have right this second, Tonali wouldn't qualify for a work permit easily. Why?

https://latitudelaw.com/news/the-fas-policy-on-non-eu-football-players-and-possible-implications-following-brexit/

He doesn't have the senior (not u21) caps required to automatically qualify. However, under the current rules, he may succeed via an appeal to the points system, dependent on the size of the transfer fee, his salary, etc.

However, IRL, the FA are currently looking at scrapping the appeal system, or at the very least removing the points on the work permit system that relate to transfer fees, salaries, etc, and purely relying on how much you've played for your senior international team, which league you're coming from, how often you play for your club, etc. This would indeed make it harder to bring in foreign talent, particularly foreign young talent. However, there's one thing you're forgetting....

That is the entire point

You may be able to bring in established internationals, but the times of English clubs being able to buy up any good 17-18 year old foreign players they want and getting a work permit because of the transfer fee and salary being high are over, and people are going to have to get used to it, the same way people get used to the restrictive non-EU player cap in Italy.

If you want to play in a country where you can just buy and bring in wonderkids from anywhere in the world without issues, you're going to have to manage a German team - no work permits at all there.

Thank you! Will be interesting to see what pressures are put on the FA as mentioned in the article, as I still find it hard to believe rules will be this tough when it all plays out

Although still frustrating it makes a lot more sense now! 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by benhoward12

[HowzatFM]

6 minutes ago, Oswaldo said:

I have almost reached the end of the first season in the PL. I signed 4 young players in Jan with the new Brexit/Work Permit rules, none of them had work permits.

After 120 days I reapplied for all of them (none had been out on loan, or had got any more u20 caps etc) all of them got a work permit. So seems like its worth just signing them anyway (if they will join without a work permit) and waiting the 3 months. It's annoying but not too bad with young players who wouldn't be in the first team anyway

I wonder why this is the case? What players did you sign?

[Guest]

Fully agree with this.

Makes the _game_ improverished, from my viewpoint.  (I like building teams from youngsters.).

Can we have an option to disable the rules at the start of the save - for those who wish to enjoy the game in this way and care less about 'realism'.

[Ickle73]

5 minutes ago, bringbacklilnux said:

Fully agree with this.

Makes the _game_ improverished, from my viewpoint.  (I like building teams from youngsters.).

Can we have an option to disable the rules at the start of the save - for those who wish to enjoy the game in this way and care less about 'realism'.

The biggest issue for me is that it's not 'real', there's no chance in hell that SI's interpretation of how these rules will be applied post brexit will actually happen in the real world. Premiership and Championship clubs will simply not stand for it.

[Chetsfmfan]

50 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

IRL, once the 1st January 2021 rolls around, even if England kept the exact same work permit rules as we have right this second, Tonali wouldn't qualify for a work permit easily. Why?

https://latitudelaw.com/news/the-fas-policy-on-non-eu-football-players-and-possible-implications-following-brexit/

He doesn't have the senior (not u21) caps required to automatically qualify. However, under the current rules, he may succeed via an appeal to the points system, dependent on the size of the transfer fee, his salary, etc.

However, IRL, the FA are currently looking at scrapping the appeal system, or at the very least removing the points on the work permit system that relate to transfer fees, salaries, etc, and purely relying on how much you've played for your senior international team, which league you're coming from, how often you play for your club, etc. This would indeed make it harder to bring in foreign talent, particularly foreign young talent. However, there's one thing you're forgetting....

That is the entire point

You may be able to bring in established internationals, but the times of English clubs being able to buy up any good 17-18 year old foreign players they want and getting a work permit because of the transfer fee and salary being high are over, and people are going to have to get used to it, the same way people get used to the restrictive non-EU player cap in Italy.

If you want to play in a country where you can just buy and bring in wonderkids from anywhere in the world without issues, you're going to have to manage a German team - no work permits at all there.

Totally agree with the points made here, but there is definitely an issue in the beta with how the work permits are being handed out, two quick examples of what I've come across at the end of the first season:

Luca Pellegrini: 35 Appearances for Genoa(on loan from Juve) in Serie A (a highly reputable league) - not qualifying for a work permit 

Thiago Almada: 21 Appearances for Velez in the Primera division - qualifying for a work permit with no problems.

I have no issue with the work permits or the new brexit rules, but there is definitely an inconsistency with how its being applied at the moment. Has been raised in the bugs section: 
 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Chetsfmfan

[HowzatFM]

53 minutes ago, Oswaldo said:

I have almost reached the end of the first season in the PL. I signed 4 young players in Jan with the new Brexit/Work Permit rules, none of them had work permits.

After 120 days I reapplied for all of them (none had been out on loan, or had got any more u20 caps etc) all of them got a work permit. So seems like its worth just signing them anyway (if they will join without a work permit) and waiting the 3 months. It's annoying but not too bad with young players who wouldn't be in the first team anyway

Seems to of worked with me aswell. 

[City1904]

I have finished the first season with Burnley and thought I would give my experience so far on the Work Permit's "issue" rather than rely on hearsay. 

 

Work Permits Approved

Esteban Andrada - 4.2m - Argentinian with 5 Caps

Caicara - Brazilian - Free Agent - 0  Caps previously playing in Turkey

Mike Maignan - 0 Caps - Lille - 5.2m

Jerome Onguene - 9 Caps - Salzburg 3.7m 

Antony - Ajax - 14.1m - 0 Caps 

 

Rejected

Matias Arezo - Wonderkid from Argentina

Boubakary Soumare - 3.2m - Lille - 0 caps

 

So as you can, see this is hardly making the game unplayable. Arezo is a prime example of a wonderkid who I can't bring in, but realistically Burnley haven't signed any wonderkids in a long time and tbh, I knew before I was going to sign him it would be impossible.

Both Arezo and Soumare I knew before making any bids I couldn't sign them, and I was told when I then offered them contracts, but I wanted to see what the process was like so I carried on.

Personally I have found it very realistic and it has not had any detrimental impact on my game. I appreciate if you play in a different manner (Less realistic one potentially) it may impact your games, but as I am managing Burnley, a middling English team I am still able to sign a lot of players.

[Guest]

It is a good way for the top prem teams to maintain their superiority of course. (After their failed attempt to be allowed to decide who can own other club, how money is distributed etc etc etc  failed.   )

So who knows.

[Guest]

I suppose this is a case of your 'value may vary'.

I have had almost the exact opposite experience.

From a _game_ point of view, this makes the game too frustrating and improverished for me.  As someone said, 100K players but cannot sign most them.

Give me a button to over-ride the permit rules please - others can chose not to do so.

(Do not want to use the ingame the editor.  Too much temptation for mere mortals.),

Edited November 15, 2020 by Guest

[HowzatFM]

40 minutes ago, Ickle73 said:

The biggest issue for me is that it's not 'real', there's no chance in hell that SI's interpretation of how these rules will be applied post brexit will actually happen in the real world. Premiership and Championship clubs will simply not stand for it.

Yes, you would think there would be a backlash!

Difficult for SI to implement with everything so unknown in the real world though! I think last year worked well! 

[RioImmagina]

54 minuti fa, bringbacklilnux ha scritto:

Fully agree with this.

Makes the _game_ improverished, from my viewpoint.  (I like building teams from youngsters.).

Can we have an option to disable the rules at the start of the save - for those who wish to enjoy the game in this way and care less about 'realism'.

We had the 2022 world cup in another nation in order to save the game calendar.

We didn't have Coronavirus in the game.

We barely could get an option to disable this silly brexit rules