[England Premier Division] Data Issues

[The Solman]

I've noticed there are two members of Arsenal staff missing 

Miguel Molina

Carlos Cuesta.

 

They're not in the game at all, does anyone know why this is?

[Nessaja Wolf]

Previously raised on the Beta thread, the capacity of 30,852 (used capacity) at Molineux is incorrect.

Confirmed on official website as 31,700 - https://www.wolves.co.uk/corporate/advertising/facts-figures/

Last seasons attendance figures - https://www.transfermarkt.us/wolverhampton-wanderers/spielplan/verein/543/plus/0?saison_id=2019 a number way over the 30,852 figure.  

 

[Alerion]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb llama3:

Injuries are only included if the player was injured at the start of the season - VVD & Gomez were fit at the start of the season. 

Aight, thank you, that explains it then

[Rockywhu]

Bowen needs an upgrade, his technique shoulder be higher than 12. I have noticed during gameplay his corners are poor and also his

shots in general are poor due to his technique being 12.

He's already got quite a few assists from corners, and crosses in general this season.

Also Coufal needs a serious upgrade in first touch, crossing, anticipation as he's awful on the game.

He's a better footballer than FM states and our best defending full back.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Rockywhu

[Sean Blinkhorn]

10 minutes ago, grff said:

Not sure if to post this in here or the transfer section but my save has seen Liverpool sign John Stones for £12.75m

Hmm. There's a few scenarios I could imagine that being *theoretically* possible. Maybe AI Pep convinced Garcia to stay. Maybe one of the very promising batch of centre backs came out too good to ignore. Maybe Liverpool's real life injury crisis is being recreated, and/or Stones fancied more first team football?

Liverpool are set as competitive rivals in-game, but the rating for that is quite flexible to show that it is more current than historic & permanent.

It certainly seems more likely than what I did in my City save, ACTUALLY ADDRESSING THE LEFT BACK PROBLEM. 

Sorry, that isn't relevant.

[diddydaddydoddy]

32 minutes ago, grff said:

Not sure if to post this in here or the transfer section but my save has seen Liverpool sign John Stones for £12.75m

Thats a bug - we'd never sign him. Period.

[Sean Blinkhorn]

10 minutes ago, diddydaddydoddy said:

Thats a bug - we'd never sign him. Period.

Not even 11mm of a chance?

[Jops14]

Completely prepatred to get shut down for this, but I can't help but feel Man U as a whole are massively overrated, in the Beta they came 2nd in the first season, and in my current save they are sitting 1st in the Prem having won all their games, I just think there must be something missing from their ratings or Solkjaer that sees this happening?

 

Lets take some specific example... Rashford... 14 finishing.

Generally throughout his career he's massively underperformed against his xG. What this seems to tell me, is his off the ball/ability to get in the right places is right up there, but isn't always that reliable. Compare him to Sterling for example, also 14 finishing, same amount of goals, but Sterling actually overperforms his xG (and has for 3 years)

Contrast that against Martial, who regularly exceeds his xG, and yet doesnt score as many or take as many shots, leading you to question his anticipation/off the ball/work rate. Martial in game is a nailed on start at CF for France... Apologies for out of date and reddit:

Martial way below on KM covered/

Then theres Pogba who is still rated as one of the worlds best Cm's in game, and yet in real life hasnt consistently shown that for a while

It frustrates me that a team that got top 4 by skin of their teeth last year, following 6th the year before, are absolute world beaters still, maybe i'm unlucky, happy to be talked down on any of it. But i'd argue:

Rashford, Finishing 14 down to 11

Composure down to 12

WR/OTB both up to 17

 

Martial

WR down to 10

OTB to 15

Pogba

Natural Fitness 14

Teamwork 11

Work Rate 9

Finishing 13

First touch 16

Flair 16

 

Understand these are all opinion but ive tried to back up where I can with facts, not expecting any changes maybe just a "lets talk about this in January"

Maybe the issue is with Solskjaer, and the players in real life just dont perform for him, but currently they always seem to be streets ahead and i think these changes peg them back to reality without ruining the players

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Manchester united's club culture seems to be getting bloated a bit too much. I know there's a bit of an identity crisis on the field, but it could do with toning down. Things need to be running consistently to get added as a cultural philosophy of the club IMO;

 

This year they are saddled with:

* Play Attacking football

* Develop players using youth

* Sign players U22 for future

* Sign high rep players

* Sign English players

* Play Entertaining football

* Sign U23 for first team.

 

That's a lot of additions from FM20's:

* Play Entertaining football

* Develop Youth

And then from FM19:

* Play entertaining

* High profile signings

* Youth for the first team

* Develop Youth.

 

FM18:

* Attacking football

* Youth for the first team

 

What I'm saying is, it needs to be consistent across the years; Attacking football and youth development are two clear philosophies United have always had, and will always value (I think the entertaining football is redundant, the onus is on attack or trying to anyway, so one or the other is fine, but both is a bit... off?) The additions of the transfer philosophies seem better suited to being pinned on the manager and/or Ed Woodward rather than being pinned as a club philosophy.

 

One season of English dominated signings is not a cultural shift to English signings, otherwise, this season's transfer window would be rounded out with a bit more of the old English perhaps? Five new signings, none are English. (There's more English players leaving than incoming... so?)

High reputation signings seems to be a Woodward thing rather than a club cultural thing, and the U22 for future/U23 for first team seems to be superfluous additions, that should be fulfilled as a side effect of the youth development, but aren't central aims of the club - or at least, their signings over recent seasons aren't driving towards that, bar the 2019 window tbh.

[jfkk]

can you fix matteo guendouzi's height? he seems 185 cm in everywhere but he looks 180 cm in game now

[andyt365]

3 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Manchester united's club culture seems to be getting bloated a bit too much. I know there's a bit of an identity crisis on the field, but it could do with toning down. Things need to be running consistently to get added as a cultural philosophy of the club IMO;

 

This year they are saddled with:

* Play Attacking football

* Develop players using youth

* Sign players U22 for future

* Sign high rep players

* Sign English players

* Play Entertaining football

* Sign U23 for first team.

 

That's a lot of additions from FM20's:

* Play Entertaining football

* Develop Youth

And then from FM19:

* Play entertaining

* High profile signings

* Youth for the first team

* Develop Youth.

 

FM18:

* Attacking football

* Youth for the first team

 

What I'm saying is, it needs to be consistent across the years; Attacking football and youth development are two clear philosophies United have always had, and will always value (I think the entertaining football is redundant, the onus is on attack or trying to anyway, so one or the other is fine, but both is a bit... off?) The additions of the transfer philosophies seem better suited to being pinned on the manager and/or Ed Woodward rather than being pinned as a club philosophy.

 

One season of English dominated signings is not a cultural shift to English signings, otherwise, this season's transfer window would be rounded out with a bit more of the old English perhaps? Five new signings, none are English. (There's more English players leaving than incoming... so?)

High reputation signings seems to be a Woodward thing rather than a club cultural thing, and the U22 for future/U23 for first team seems to be superfluous additions, that should be fulfilled as a side effect of the youth development, but aren't central aims of the club - or at least, their signings over recent seasons aren't driving towards that, bar the 2019 window tbh.

Haha youve got the dreaded must by English players that I hated at Spurs

[andyt365]

Gabriel Jesus is way overrated again. He can barely score a goal in real life. Were he to be at Leicester or Sheff United nobody would even notice him. 156CA/175P

Erling Harland is too underrated CA 164/ P167 - I mean 167? He should have 180-195PA. The guy is banging em in every week and setting records.

Moussa Sissoko is underrated as usual. Gets a game for France in midfield despite the talent they have available. 142PA is too low.

Lo Celso as well. Argentinas best current midfielder is mid 140s CA.

Rashford and Martial are way overrated. Mid 150s CA. 

[swansongs]

1 hour ago, andyt365 said:

Gabriel Jesus is way overrated again. He can barely score a goal in real life. Were he to be at Leicester or Sheff United nobody would even notice him. 156CA/175P

Erling Harland is too underrated CA 164/ P167 - I mean 167? He should have 180-195PA. The guy is banging em in every week and setting records.

Moussa Sissoko is underrated as usual. Gets a game for France in midfield despite the talent they have available. 142PA is too low.

Lo Celso as well. Argentinas best current midfielder is mid 140s CA.

Rashford and Martial are way overrated. Mid 150s CA. 

Haaland's PA is in a random range, with 167 on the lower end. Probably should have a fixed potential by now given how much senior football he's played and where his CA already is. Still raw in his all-around game but a monster in front of goal, plenty of room to grow (hopefully not physically).

[Sunstrikuuu]

Gabriel Martinelli: 60 appearances, 20 goals, Klopp says “he’s a talent of the century, he’s an incredible striker." 161 PA, unchanged from last year.

Bukayo Saka: 50 appearances, five goals and 13 assists, four England caps.  158 to 160 PA.

Mason Greenwood: 63 appearances, 20 goals, goes from a random 150-180 PA to 175 PA.

Look, I agree that Mason Greenwood is a super talented player.  And I'm not saying Saka or Martinelli are better than he is or will have better careers.  But was Greenwood's 2019-2020 really that much better than Saka's?  Greenwood has the 7th highest PA in the database for U20 players.  Martinelli is 60th and Saka is 69th.  I'm a little bit dubious of that, and I'm a little dubious that the current database has Reiss Nelson, Gabriel Martinelli and Bukayo Saka all at the same level of potential.  Martinelli and Saka are clearly a step above Nelson, both in terms of potential and current results.

[bigman]

34 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Gabriel Martinelli: 60 appearances, 20 goals, Klopp says “he’s a talent of the century, he’s an incredible striker." 161 PA, unchanged from last year.

Bukayo Saka: 50 appearances, five goals and 13 assists, four England caps.  158 to 160 PA.

Mason Greenwood: 63 appearances, 20 goals, goes from a random 150-180 PA to 175 PA.

Look, I agree that Mason Greenwood is a super talented player.  And I'm not saying Saka or Martinelli are better than he is or will have better careers.  But was Greenwood's 2019-2020 really that much better than Saka's?  Greenwood has the 7th highest PA in the database for U20 players.  Martinelli is 60th and Saka is 69th.  I'm a little bit dubious of that, and I'm a little dubious that the current database has Reiss Nelson, Gabriel Martinelli and Bukayo Saka all at the same level of potential.  Martinelli and Saka are clearly a step above Nelson, both in terms of potential and current results.

Also with saka, his data base version says pa of 160 but it looks like a

box is ticked where he can only reach 158

 

i agree he and martinelli are underrated compared to the likes of mason mount (168 pa) and obviously Greenwood who has been ridiculously buffed imo 

 

ah well, we can always use the editor to swap values etc 

 

if I had the editor when I started my new save I would’ve increased saka and martinelli to closer to 170 but I thought I would highlight sakas data page as 158 ceiling seems stupidly low

 

 

[Sapa]

Man Utd are way too good early in the game.  They have won 3 of the first 4 Premier League seasons.  Not sure if it's due to high rep and certain players being over-rated. 

[metal_guitarist]

Saka’s rating was done to death in the beta thread, it will not be gone over again. Also given that he still can’t even hold down a consistent position it is absolutely pointless trying to compare him to two strikers (who are also different) who are completely different players. There is no such thing as “a box ticked so that he can only reach 158” either. 
 

Having watched Greenwood play since he was 13, I can comfortably say that aside from Ravel Morrison, he is the most talented player to come through the Utd academy in possibly the last 30 years and has the potential to be one of the best players in the world. The PA he has been given by the Utd researcher reflects that. Just like in real life, there are factors in the game that mean he may not hit that PA for various reasons but the potential is there, let’s not forget that PA is the absolute maximum level that a player could reach if everything goes in the right way, but things don’t always work out. 
 

Martinelli has been out injured for most of the last year with a serious injury at a crucial point of development so his ratings will not have changed because he hasn’t played. The Arsenal researcher did explain last year why he rated Martinelli the way he did (I would have to go digging for the post/s) but his PA would turn him into one of the top 2/3 players at Arsenal and one of the best players in the league from memory if he maxed it out. 
 

Posts along the lines of “oh player x has always been overrated” and accusing researchers of bias are absolutely pointless and will be removed. 

[bigman]

1 hour ago, metal_guitarist said:

Saka’s rating was done to death in the beta thread, it will not be gone over again. Also given that he still can’t even hold down a consistent position it is absolutely pointless trying to compare him to two strikers (who are also different) who are completely different players. There is no such thing as “a box ticked so that he can only reach 158” either. 
 

Having watched Greenwood play since he was 13, I can comfortably say that aside from Ravel Morrison, he is the most talented player to come through the Utd academy in possibly the last 30 years and has the potential to be one of the best players in the world. The PA he has been given by the Utd researcher reflects that. Just like in real life, there are factors in the game that mean he may not hit that PA for various reasons but the potential is there, let’s not forget that PA is the absolute maximum level that a player could reach if everything goes in the right way, but things don’t always work out. 
 

Martinelli has been out injured for most of the last year with a serious injury at a crucial point of development so his ratings will not have changed because he hasn’t played. The Arsenal researcher did explain last year why he rated Martinelli the way he did (I would have to go digging for the post/s) but his PA would turn him into one of the top 2/3 players at Arsenal and one of the best players in the league from memory if he maxed it out. 
 

Posts along the lines of “oh player x has always been overrated” and accusing researchers of bias are absolutely pointless and will be removed. 

Well what is that ceiling box in sakas editor page? 
 

alss as o the likelihood Greenwood is more talented than scholes and Giggs seems extreme to me 

[The Solman]

Is anyone looking at the missing Arsenal coaching staff?

 

There are two coaches

Miguel Molina

Carlos Cuesta

 

They're not shown anywhere in the game.

Edited November 26, 2020 by The Solman

[diddydaddydoddy]

3 minutes ago, The Solman said:

Is anyone looking at the missing Arsenal coaching staff?

 

There are two coaches

Miguel Molina

Carlos Cuesta

 

They're not shown anywhere in the game.

Who are they, any links and what are their roles? This’ll help the Arsenal researcher a little more if he’s not aware of them

[metal_guitarist]

39 minutes ago, bigman said:

Well what is that ceiling box in sakas editor page? 
 

alss as o the likelihood Greenwood is more talented than scholes and Giggs seems extreme to me 

Ceiling box? I have no idea what you’re referring to I’m afraid. Is that that PPA field that seems to have appeared? I’ve no idea what that actually does. 

Very different player to both of course but could reach a similar level. Anyone who’s watched him come through the system would be able to attest to that. 

[Sean Blinkhorn]

13 hours ago, andyt365 said:

Gabriel Jesus is way overrated again. He can barely score a goal in real life. Were he to be at Leicester or Sheff United nobody would even notice him. 156CA/175P

Can you tell me what exactly this overall opinion is based on, and which specific areas you personally believe him to be overrated, please?

[Arsenal71]

As others have said regarding Man Utd, they are over performing when compared to RL.

Their players mental attributes are too high across the board with WR, TW , concentration, decisions and determination, that complied with hidden attribute consistency, unfortunately make them too efficient in game. If you add their high physical attributes Acc, Pace, and stamina they have all the key attributes to perform very well.

Rashford, Martial, Pogba and Fernandes all appear to be performing to a high level in terms of consistency in game and their goals and assists.  Im sure the research team have done internal tests so not sure why this has not been picked up as it was an issue prior to the beta, during the beta and now appears to have made it in the retail release.  I cant help feeling that the Mental ratings have a greater affect and manipulates the mechanics of the game.

I for certain would not rate Mctominay world class at WR, TW and Determination who is another over performer. Even Linguard has high mental attributes, gets games for MU in game when realistically he wont play for them again and will likely leave on a free.

I know some players were tweaked between beta and release however for some reason, they over perform.  Solksjaers attributes dont appear to be out of scale, so i wonder if his mental attributes affect the teams management of morale i.e determination and man management.

Mentally i think the majority of players have over rated attributes, that coupled with a couple of physical attributes.  If you knock them back a bit by a few points 2-3 in most cases, they become more inconsistent which at the moment they are far too consistent. Even by reducing stamina that would potentially reflect why they are so lackluster in games as it goes on. They perform too good, for too long in game. I understand trying to replicate how MU used to play, the high energy pacy give or die attitude till fergie time,  this may have been the MU way, but not with these players. Unfortunately they still have the attributes from when Solksjaer took over in the honeymoon period.

The 4231 is very strong in game hence why im seeing Newcastle being too good. Currently in Feb 1st season and they sit 3rd behind MU with stats of 22G, 14W, 2D, 6L and Bruce still at the helm. Almiron and Wilson appear to have far too many goals and assists. Liverpool are also cut above the rest with Man City i feel under perform sightly but you could say they are bang on as they are inconsistent. The rest of the lague teams appear to be there or there abouts, so its really MU that still have WC players that are performing no where near that IRL.

Its possible that a couple of key attributes are taking advantage of the ME, im not sure of the guidance from the dev team to researchers but if the ME is going to be based around some attributes like it was when OTB, Acc and Pace were, then i feel some of these attributes need to be tweaked or the ME. To me it feels like that if you have players with OTB, ACC, Pace, WR and are good at finishing and have good decision making and composure for that division, you will create a lot of chances and have a winning combination with this ME. I know researchers will say we enter the data and how the ME interprets that data is not their responsibility, but there needs to be a balance otherwise you get what we have now, an imbalance.

At the moment it is just not realistic and spoils the in game feel when teams and player are over performing.

[bigman]

12 hours ago, metal_guitarist said:

Ceiling box? I have no idea what you’re referring to I’m afraid. Is that that PPA field that seems to have appeared? I’ve no idea what that actually does. 

Very different player to both of course but could reach a similar level. Anyone who’s watched him come through the system would be able to attest to that. 

I will screen shot it tonight. Seemed odd

 

see below 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by bigman
Adding photo

[Simon Tipple]

2 hours ago, Arsenal71 said:

As others have said regarding Man Utd, they are over performing when compared to RL.

Their players mental attributes are too high across the board with WR, TW , concentration, decisions and determination, that complied with hidden attribute consistency, unfortunately make them too efficient in game. If you add their high physical attributes Acc, Pace, and stamina they have all the key attributes to perform very well.

Rashford, Martial, Pogba and Fernandes all appear to be performing to a high level in terms of consistency in game and their goals and assists.  Im sure the research team have done internal tests so not sure why this has not been picked up as it was an issue prior to the beta, during the beta and now appears to have made it in the retail release.  I cant help feeling that the Mental ratings have a greater affect and manipulates the mechanics of the game.

I for certain would not rate Mctominay world class at WR, TW and Determination who is another over performer. Even Linguard has high mental attributes, gets games for MU in game when realistically he wont play for them again and will likely leave on a free.

I know some players were tweaked between beta and release however for some reason, they over perform.  Solksjaers attributes dont appear to be out of scale, so i wonder if his mental attributes affect the teams management of morale i.e determination and man management.

Mentally i think the majority of players have over rated attributes, that coupled with a couple of physical attributes.  If you knock them back a bit by a few points 2-3 in most cases, they become more inconsistent which at the moment they are far too consistent. Even by reducing stamina that would potentially reflect why they are so lackluster in games as it goes on. They perform too good, for too long in game. I understand trying to replicate how MU used to play, the high energy pacy give or die attitude till fergie time,  this may have been the MU way, but not with these players. Unfortunately they still have the attributes from when Solksjaer took over in the honeymoon period.

The 4231 is very strong in game hence why im seeing Newcastle being too good. Currently in Feb 1st season and they sit 3rd behind MU with stats of 22G, 14W, 2D, 6L and Bruce still at the helm. Almiron and Wilson appear to have far too many goals and assists. Liverpool are also cut above the rest with Man City i feel under perform sightly but you could say they are bang on as they are inconsistent. The rest of the lague teams appear to be there or there abouts, so its really MU that still have WC players that are performing no where near that IRL.

Its possible that a couple of key attributes are taking advantage of the ME, im not sure of the guidance from the dev team to researchers but if the ME is going to be based around some attributes like it was when OTB, Acc and Pace were, then i feel some of these attributes need to be tweaked or the ME. To me it feels like that if you have players with OTB, ACC, Pace, WR and are good at finishing and have good decision making and composure for that division, you will create a lot of chances and have a winning combination with this ME. I know researchers will say we enter the data and how the ME interprets that data is not their responsibility, but there needs to be a balance otherwise you get what we have now, an imbalance.

At the moment it is just not realistic and spoils the in game feel when teams and player are over performing.

We had similar feedback last season, when after 8 games they were sitting 12th with 9 points. They of course went on to finish 3rd. This season they're currently 4 points up on their total at this stage last season.

Our soak tests, where we simulate the season hundreds of times, is seeing them on average, finish in 3rd place. We'll always review these things, and of course tweak them in the winter update if we need too, but I think it's a bit to soon to draw any conclusions at this stage.

[Dan Ormsby]

1 hour ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Edit: I've read through the beta thread.  I'll leave it alone, as Dan has made his decision, but I think it's quite disappointing.  I appreciate that Dan has a day job that takes up a lot of his time; if that's the case, perhaps there should be a second set of eyes on some of this stuff.

 

How have you come to this conclusion?  It's only disappointing because you disagree with me, not because I haven't put the time in.  I explained very, very clearly in the beta thread that everything I have set has been carefully considered and very detailed explanation as to why I have set what I have set.  Some people made some suggestions and I considered them and made changes (an alteration to Lacazette, for example).  I'm not going to get 100% of stuff right, that's why we have these threads.  But I've already explained at length what I have set for Saka.  The reference I made to being busy doing QA work for SI was because it was literally the busiest week of the year that week, shortly before the release of FM21.  By this point I'd already submitted my final changes to Pete the Premier League HR and didn't even have ORDB access any more.  I was saying I was too busy to discuss aggressive opinion based posts on something I'd already carefully considered and set, not that I don't have time to perform my duties as Arsenal researcher.  I would imagine most of the researchers have a day job.  Please don't be saying stuff like this, it isn't fair and it isn't warranted.

[Dan Ormsby]

5 hours ago, The Solman said:

Is anyone looking at the missing Arsenal coaching staff?

 

There are two coaches

Miguel Molina

Carlos Cuesta

 

They're not shown anywhere in the game.

I'm very confused by this as they are both appearing as Arsenal staff in game for me.  Do you have England loaded as a fully playable nation?  It is possible they aren't being extracted if you do not.

[Ed Hewison]

5 hours ago, The Solman said:

Is anyone looking at the missing Arsenal coaching staff?

 

There are two coaches

Miguel Molina

Carlos Cuesta

 

They're not shown anywhere in the game.

These were added early on, as an update in the beta.

If you start a new game, they should be there @The Solman

[Jops14]

17 minutes ago, Simon Tipple said:

We had similar feedback last season, when after 8 games they were sitting 12th with 9 points. They of course went on to finish 3rd. This season they're currently 4 points up on their total at this stage last season.

Our soak tests, where we simulate the season hundreds of times, is seeing them on average, finish in 3rd place. We'll always review these things, and of course tweak them in the winter update if we need too, but I think it's a bit to soon to draw any conclusions at this stage.

Appreciate the response to the general Man U discussion, It's helpful to know where the soak tests have them finishing, but are we sure that is actually right? Do think think they are a 3rd placed team? I would argue they have shown recently they are bottom side of the top 6. I mean, essentially they came out the Corona break way better than anyone else. I mean after Jan they went on a 15 game unbeaten run , and drew 3 won 6 after Rona. Biggest differentiator is Bruno Fernandes (who's rating I think is fine) Likewise I dont have an issue with Greenwood, I just think Martial/Pogba/Rashford are overrated enough it makes a significant difference, their attributes enable them to be world beaters. Dont even get me started on Scott "Roy Keane" McTominay, hes decent, but his ratings seem to suggest hed be a nailed on starter anywhere (conversely Fred still seems a little too inefficient) . Likewise Lingard, Aka Cleverley 2.0 still manages to play?

 

Think the general team needs a hit in WR, Teamwork and consistency, They only got 66 points last year, which would have only got them in the top 4 about twice in the last 20 years?  Leicesters form collapsed but I dont see them regularly top 4 in the current FM, even Spurs who picked up Bale struggle to finish top 6/7.

 

It feels like there is a historic bias around Man U, whether thats true or not (and part of what I said earlier) we'll see as this season wears on and maybe its still justified, but they appear to be the only team thats overpowered against reality.

 

My biggest shock is Arsenal71 pointing out Bruce is better than me in game :( I mean im in 7th (Saint-Maximin is perfect), but way off Bruce...

[Sunstrikuuu]

29 minutes ago, Jops14 said:

Appreciate the response to the general Man U discussion, It's helpful to know where the soak tests have them finishing, but are we sure that is actually right? Do think think they are a 3rd placed team? I would argue they have shown recently they are bottom side of the top 6. I mean, essentially they came out the Corona break way better than anyone else. I mean after Jan they went on a 15 game unbeaten run , and drew 3 won 6 after Rona. Biggest differentiator is Bruno Fernandes (who's rating I think is fine) Likewise I dont have an issue with Greenwood, I just think Martial/Pogba/Rashford are overrated enough it makes a significant difference, their attributes enable them to be world beaters. Dont even get me started on Scott "Roy Keane" McTominay, hes decent, but his ratings seem to suggest hed be a nailed on starter anywhere (conversely Fred still seems a little too inefficient) . Likewise Lingard, Aka Cleverley 2.0 still manages to play?

Any thoughts on this post, Jops?

 

[Jops14]

30 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Any thoughts on this post, Jops?

 

Yes, I think I've tried to stay away from mentioning CA, I think it's less to do with the actual CA and more the distribution of attributes on certain players, like with the players i've mentioned I haven't called out their CA as having them overrated but the way their attributes are distributed means certain players tend to vastly outperform their real life counterparts. I mean the squad of 25 may have some actual stinkers in there who are well below the rest of the team which may drag it down too (I haven't looked I should add)

 

I mean you could probably make a 140 CA player with 16's in his relevant attributes and 1's everywhere else and go "well he's massively underrated on his CA" but its not as relevant to how he performs (incidentally I wonder how well that would work...)

 

 

EDIT: Apologies I actually went back and read the whole post instead of just the little screengrab. Really fair points I can't argue with anything hes said, helpful to see the rankings are based on top 16 in squad which invalidates most of my post here haha. Just seems a freak incident but at least everyone else noticing. Maybe the game just in its core has become partially sentient and is a Man U fan 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Jops14

[Arsenal71]

2 hours ago, Simon Tipple said:

We had similar feedback last season, when after 8 games they were sitting 12th with 9 points. They of course went on to finish 3rd. This season they're currently 4 points up on their total at this stage last season.

Our soak tests, where we simulate the season hundreds of times, is seeing them on average, finish in 3rd place. We'll always review these things, and of course tweak them in the winter update if we need too, but I think it's a bit to soon to draw any conclusions at this stage.

@Simon Tipple,  Appreciate passing on your points and of course in testing is where we find if things need to be tweaked.  I still do think this year of all years, when the team has been in decline, that there are a few players that in my opinion do not warrant the 17+ attributes in certain areas.  By dropping the points by a couple you notice a subtle difference more akin to their performances this and last season when they only really scraped 3rd due to the decline of others. If there was no sharp decline MU would have been 5/6th.

Im not one for decreasing the players significantly but to the eye, there are obviously players with significant attributes in the very high range which if there is a 'crack' in the code, it could be very noticeable which is what i feel we are seeing with the team as it is and certain players.  What we do know in testing is that it doesn't appear to be Solksjaer as a manager and his attributes, however perhaps his motivating could come down, but that's not going to make that much of a difference. 

In game, they are a very direct, fast tempo game focusing through the middle with the AMC and very very fast wide players that can finish as well as create. They then have a very good SC in Cavani who is elite in attributes as an all round finisher. Combine this with a very creative MC in pogba and a nut job in Mctominay running around with 18+ WR, TW and Determination make for a very successful attack.  They still have in game a WC GK and a very good defense for the premier league. When compared to Tottenham who are performing much better this season, and if they didnt have the injuries last season would have surpassed MU; appear to be fairly rated and perform potentially less ingame than RL.

In my testing, simply reducing a couple of players by a couple of notches in these areas, MU perform more realistically up to Jan 2020 prior to any signing, which again will alter the dimension as they do spend big and get better players in which would be no different if they could make space in their current squad. Whether this is the right way or not, im not sure as i do believe the AI when selecting players for MU's midfield and attack, is selecting the very best players in terms of attack with Cavani; Rashford, Fernandes, Martial; Pogba, VdB; and in defence, Telles, Lindelof, Maguire, W-B.  This is a very very strong 11 and i dont believe this has been selected this season due to the potential imbalance of the team.  The AI seems to get away with the defensive frailties and simply goes gung-ho in attack.

Its highly possible that the key attributes are taking advantage of the code, and in addition the 'rating' of a 4231 and the AMC in the ME. Its a difficult one as we were always told to just rate the players and not worry about the ME but that would be negligent as they both combine to create a balance and more importantly the experience to the end user.

[The Solman]

1 hour ago, Dan Ormsby said:

I'm very confused by this as they are both appearing as Arsenal staff in game for me.  Do you have England loaded as a fully playable nation?  It is possible they aren't being extracted if you do not.

Ahh,

 

it might be that may save is a Beta save before the update. I havent started my season so i'll restart.

 

Thanks for the repsonse.

[Arsenal71]

1 hour ago, Jops14 said:

Yes, I think I've tried to stay away from mentioning CA, I think it's less to do with the actual CA and more the distribution of attributes on certain players, like with the players i've mentioned I haven't called out their CA as having them overrated but the way their attributes are distributed means certain players tend to vastly outperform their real life counterparts. I mean the squad of 25 may have some actual stinkers in there who are well below the rest of the team which may drag it down too (I haven't looked I should add)

I mean you could probably make a 140 CA player with 16's in his relevant attributes and 1's everywhere else and go "well he's massively underrated on his CA" but its not as relevant to how he performs (incidentally I wonder how well that would work...)

EDIT: Apologies I actually went back and read the whole post instead of just the little screengrab. Really fair points I can't argue with anything hes said, helpful to see the rankings are based on top 16 in squad which invalidates most of my post here haha. Just seems a freak incident but at least everyone else noticing. Maybe the game just in its core has become partially sentient and is a Man U fan 

As you have mentioned, its too simplistic to focus on CA, the game is built around numbers and the higher/lower the number is along with its weightings (which are determined by the coders as having an effect in the ME) will depend on how the ME interprets them and 'converts' it into performance, obviously there are other parts of the game that come into effect i.e. morale, and the overall tactic but attributes are the base of the game.  Its no different from Daljit @Rashidi to grinding out trying to find the 'perfect' tactical system to find that nishe in the code.  I just personally don't like it if i see something obvious as i look at it that is spoils the enjoyment and if its doing it for me its possible doing it for others as i believe most players want the game to be as realistic as possible.

The guys don't go out their way to overrate players, but every version the ME interprets the attributes slightly differently, so if this year the 'key high weighting' attributes are ACC, Pace, Decisions, WR, stamina, then with MU having a number of players with high attributes in these areas, they will over perform in the ME and overall game.  You need to have balance and if it means a tweak to ensure that the game feels more realistic, im more for that. Either the attributes need to be tweaked or the ME, the devs and the researchers need to have a little talk.

 

[Simon Tipple]

2 hours ago, Jops14 said:

Appreciate the response to the general Man U discussion, It's helpful to know where the soak tests have them finishing, but are we sure that is actually right? Do think think they are a 3rd placed team? I would argue they have shown recently they are bottom side of the top 6. I mean, essentially they came out the Corona break way better than anyone else. I mean after Jan they went on a 15 game unbeaten run , and drew 3 won 6 after Rona. Biggest differentiator is Bruno Fernandes (who's rating I think is fine) Likewise I dont have an issue with Greenwood, I just think Martial/Pogba/Rashford are overrated enough it makes a significant difference, their attributes enable them to be world beaters. Dont even get me started on Scott "Roy Keane" McTominay, hes decent, but his ratings seem to suggest hed be a nailed on starter anywhere (conversely Fred still seems a little too inefficient) . Likewise Lingard, Aka Cleverley 2.0 still manages to play?

 

Think the general team needs a hit in WR, Teamwork and consistency, They only got 66 points last year, which would have only got them in the top 4 about twice in the last 20 years?  Leicesters form collapsed but I dont see them regularly top 4 in the current FM, even Spurs who picked up Bale struggle to finish top 6/7.

 

It feels like there is a historic bias around Man U, whether thats true or not (and part of what I said earlier) we'll see as this season wears on and maybe its still justified, but they appear to be the only team thats overpowered against reality.

 

My biggest shock is Arsenal71 pointing out Bruce is better than me in game I mean im in 7th (Saint-Maximin is perfect), but way off Bruce...

 

29 minutes ago, Arsenal71 said:

@Simon Tipple,  Appreciate passing on your points and of course in testing is where we find if things need to be tweaked.  I still do think this year of all years, when the team has been in decline, that there are a few players that in my opinion do not warrant the 17+ attributes in certain areas.  By dropping the points by a couple you notice a subtle difference more akin to their performances this and last season when they only really scraped 3rd due to the decline of others. If there was no sharp decline MU would have been 5/6th.

Im not one for decreasing the players significantly but to the eye, there are obviously players with significant attributes in the very high range which if there is a 'crack' in the code, it could be very noticeable which is what i feel we are seeing with the team as it is and certain players.  What we do know in testing is that it doesn't appear to be Solksjaer as a manager and his attributes, however perhaps his motivating could come down, but that's not going to make that much of a difference. 

In game, they are a very direct, fast tempo game focusing through the middle with the AMC and very very fast wide players that can finish as well as create. They then have a very good SC in Cavani who is elite in attributes as an all round finisher. Combine this with a very creative MC in pogba and a nut job in Mctominay running around with 18+ WR, TW and Determination make for a very successful attack.  They still have in game a WC GK and a very good defense for the premier league. When compared to Tottenham who are performing much better this season, and if they didnt have the injuries last season would have surpassed MU; appear to be fairly rated and perform potentially less ingame than RL.

Its highly possible that the key attributes are taking advantage of the code, and in addition the 'rating' of a 4231 and the AMC in the ME. Its a difficult one as we were always told to just rate the players and not worry about the ME but that would be negligent as they both combine to create a balance and more importantly the experience to the end user.

Appreciate the feedback but the only response I can really give at this time is that there's a lot of football to be played between now and the winter update.

We put a lot of effort into rating players based on the previous season. This gives us a solid foundation and a good sample size to asses the performance of players. Our internal testing has given us confidence that our processes are working pretty well. 

We'll have a clearer picture as to where things stand in the new year and all clubs will of course be reviewed at that point. 

[santy001]

I have to point out that researchers aren't here to be your punching bags for derogatory remarks just because you have a difference of opinion. 

It is becoming especially prominent from those who tend to be followers of Arsenal, try not to ruin the fact you have a researcher here who is actually engaging with your posts on the forums - because believe it or not - it is not mandatory to do so. We can submit our data as researchers and never visit this section of the forum if we so choose. Ultimately, and this will be difficult for some to accept, there is only one opinion that matters - the researchers. This is how its setup and you have to accept that.

There's a pre-game editor, if you want your player to have a 200PA because he managed to put his shorts on the right way around for his last game, knock yourselves out. 

[llama3]

@santy001its a loud minority giving us a bad name.@Dan Ormsbyhas done an excellent job with the data. He always does and there is very little reason to gripe. 

It’s bang on that we (the paying customers as a whole) should remember a little more courtesy when talking online. I think we’re privileged to engage over ratings with a researcher in the way you can’t for many other games.

[Jops14]

49 minutes ago, Simon Tipple said:

 

Appreciate the feedback but the only response I can really give at this time is that there's a lot of football to be played between now and the winter update.

We put a lot of effort into rating players based on the previous season. This gives us a solid foundation and a good sample size to asses the performance of players. Our internal testing has given us confidence that our processes are working pretty well. 

We'll have a clearer picture as to where things stand in the new year and all clubs will of course be reviewed at that point. 

Appreciate the response Simon thanks for taking the time.  I have no doubt they will be terrible and then have another outrageous run to end the season 

[Arsenal71]

3 hours ago, Simon Tipple said:

 

Appreciate the feedback but the only response I can really give at this time is that there's a lot of football to be played between now and the winter update.

We put a lot of effort into rating players based on the previous season. This gives us a solid foundation and a good sample size to asses the performance of players. Our internal testing has given us confidence that our processes are working pretty well. 

We'll have a clearer picture as to where things stand in the new year and all clubs will of course be reviewed at that point. 

@Simon TippleOf course, thats all we can do is wait and see what happens.  Just thought id share what i have found in pre-beta, beta and game.  The wider public do need to appreciate it is not just the attribute input that affects the way a team plays in game however unfortunately this is the first area of the game that people will criticism as its a physical data on a profile screen. They cant see the coding that utilize this data that could be the issue.

Im sure we will do more testing as and when the game is updated and data potentially altered if that is indeed the issue.

[iAlwaysWin]

Kieran Tierney is underrated, he was better in Football Manager when he played for Celtic, i know he had a bad injury recently but i would presume he has improved as a player since hes playing a better league and with better players, if any attribute needed improving its his determination, only rated at 15 currently, its no way high enough for a player like him, you only need to watch him play to realize this.

[ClarkKent1]

On 25/11/2020 at 01:57, LW94 said:

Hi all,

Not sure if im posting in the right place, however in my Liverpool save I appear to have two Peter Krawietz's working for me. 

Anyone else got this issue? Not sure if this is just a bug on this particular screen? 

fm error.dib 266.51 kB · 4 downloads

Yup, same thing for me, I already posted about it.

 

[HUNT3R]

5 hours ago, iAlwaysWin said:

Kieran Tierney is underrated, he was better in Football Manager when he played for Celtic, i know he had a bad injury recently but i would presume he has improved as a player since hes playing a better league and with better players, if any attribute needed improving its his determination, only rated at 15 currently, its no way high enough for a player like him, you only need to watch him play to realize this.

Please check the OP to see what researchers require when you report an isssue:

Quote

 

Please post any data issues related to England's Premier Division here.

As much of the data is subjective we’d ask that you respect everyone’s opinion and accept that the final decision is that of our club researchers and our heads of research.          

We also request you please adhere to the following three point plan when posting in the data topics:

·        State what you think is specifically wrong with a particular piece of data.              

·        State what you think the data should be.                            

·        State reasons/proof for your suggested corrections/improvements.                         

Please note that any non-data issues for England's Premier Division should be posted in the appropriate thread within the League Specific Issues forum. This would include issues such as league scheduling, league table sorting rules and match rules.

 

 

[bigman]

23 hours ago, bigman said:

I will screen shot it tonight. Seemed odd

 

see below 

 

 

@metal_guitarist

 

this is what I meant sorry. Also, im

not trying to attack any researchers here, attributes are hardly objective so you will never please everyone 

[metal_guitarist]

1 minute ago, bigman said:

@metal_guitarist

 

this is what I meant sorry. Also, im

not trying to attack any researchers here, attributes are hardly objective so you will never please everyone 

Ah yeah it's the Peak Potential. There's still no explanation as to what that does that I've seen. I could speculate but it wouldn't be helpful. The range difference seems to vary though, I think with Greenwood his PPA is 10 lower than his actual PA from memory. Still waiting on an official answer on it. 

No problem, the warnings in the thread have mostly been in response to people that have crossed the line and had their posts removed. The beta thread turned into a bit of a free-for-all so we're trying to avoid that here, the discussion/abuse around Saka went on for pages despite Dan's explanation for his rating.  

[Mcfc1894]

Are Everton really in this much debt in real life by owned money to the old Chairman??

[Pete Sottrel]

6 minutes ago, Mcfc1894 said:

Are Everton really in this much debt in real life by owned money to the old Chairman??

Hi @Mcfc1894 - why do you say "the old chairman"?  Those sums detailed as "Gift Loans" are all cash injections since Moshiri joined the club in 2016.  They will not impact the club as they are "soft" loans, and will not need to be considered unless the club changes ownership.

[Pete Sottrel]

On 26/11/2020 at 09:18, The Solman said:

Is anyone looking at the missing Arsenal coaching staff?

 

There are two coaches

Miguel Molina

Carlos Cuesta

 

They're not shown anywhere in the game.

Hi @The Solman - these coaches were created in the database between the Pre-Release Beta and the full release.  They should be in the game.  Have you started a new game with the full release data?

[Pete Sottrel]

17 minutes ago, Pete Sottrel said:

Hi @The Solman - these coaches were created in the database between the Pre-Release Beta and the full release.  They should be in the game.  Have you started a new game with the full release data?

Apologies @The Solman - further catching up has shown that this has been dealt with, ta.

[Mcfc1894]

2 hours ago, Pete Sottrel said:

Hi @Mcfc1894 - why do you say "the old chairman"?  Those sums detailed as "Gift Loans" are all cash injections since Moshiri joined the club in 2016.  They will not impact the club as they are "soft" loans, and will not need to be considered unless the club changes ownership.

My Bad thought it Meant they was still paying off Bill Kenwright

[Maaka]

On 27/11/2020 at 13:59, metal_guitarist said:

Ah yeah it's the Peak Potential. There's still no explanation as to what that does that I've seen. I could speculate but it wouldn't be helpful. The range difference seems to vary though, I think with Greenwood his PPA is 10 lower than his actual PA from memory. Still waiting on an official answer on it. 

No problem, the warnings in the thread have mostly been in response to people that have crossed the line and had their posts removed. The beta thread turned into a bit of a free-for-all so we're trying to avoid that here, the discussion/abuse around Saka went on for pages despite Dan's explanation for his rating.  

Isn't PPA "Percieved Potential Ability"? What someone in-game believes the PA to be?