Replicating Bayern on FM21

[drew_3]

What do you do when the goals dry up? I am playing as Bayern and until the last half dozen games I was scoring for fun now I'm only getting 1 goal a game. It's only the first half of the first season too so it's not like the AI is familiar with the tactic.

[Hootieleece]

I am using a variant of this 4-2-3-1 Wide in my DVSC career in Hungary as a secondary tactic with a DLP in Central Midfield.

That DLP created 13 assists in 20 appearances. (Only plays when I use the tactic)

Biggest thing I have found is that if you aren't using Lewandowski at CF...you need another source of goals....usually for me the AML.

 

Yes, I rule the Hungarian League having won 4 Straight League titles but only one domestic cup!....I also act like Bayern by buying every promising Hungarian Player from my rivals....

[thesharmz]

On 01/01/2021 at 22:13, drew_3 said:

What do you do when the goals dry up? I am playing as Bayern and until the last half dozen games I was scoring for fun now I'm only getting 1 goal a game. It's only the first half of the first season too so it's not like the AI is familiar with the tactic.

This is exactly where I am. First few games, I scored loads. Then we seemed to stop creating chances. 

I've also adapted the formation and created a 4-1-2-2-1, which I feel suits my squad better. @Rashidi - any tips on reviving a team when the chances dry up? And how would you set up in a 4-1-2-2-1? I've attached how I'm setting up, if you're willing to offer any tips....

Edited January 12, 2021 by thesharmz
Added image

[CM]

When struggling to score goals I try to change CF-SU to CF-AT, CM-D to DL-D or more riskier to AP-S, WB-A to CWB-A. Then inreasing tempo, switching to positive mentality and playing wider might also help but keep in mind that you will deviate from original possession based tactic if you do these things and become more prone to counter attacks.

[Elitee]

@thesharmzHaving VVD on Cover whilst playing with an Offside Trap makes no sense. You want him to drop deeper than the Defensive Line but also step up to play the Offside Trap. You need to remove one or the other.

[thesharmz]

1 hour ago, Elitee said:

@thesharmzHaving VVD on Cover whilst playing with an Offside Trap makes no sense. You want him to drop deeper than the Defensive Line but also step up to play the Offside Trap. You need to remove one or the other.

Thanks @Elitee - good shout. My defence isn't really the issue with this tactic, but I take your point. My issue was more in line with what @drew_3 said about the goals drying up and the fluid play disappearing.

[beverage1982]

Quick question for @Rashidiif you were to transform the core concept of overloads out wide to a slightly more direct quick transition tactic how would you do it?

 

I understand changing width would mean sacrificing the counter press. But if I were to go wider and quicker or more direct would the same concept work?

[Rashidi]

You would players that can pass the ball effectively for one thing. Going wider will also reduce the effectiveness of the counter press as well. Since players are further positioned, when they lose the ball it might get harder to win the ball back as a pack. Counter pressing is really on effective on systems that aren’t very wide. So the furthest I might go with width settings is standard.

 

if you are willing to take that risk then the concept can still work, much like the current 4231 I have been sharing on the latest episode of  Creating Tactics on YouTube. The width will allow you to switch play to an IF/RMD that attacks the space aggressively. Focus play is now very strong on FM21, if you want to generate overloads and score some rippers then yes you can go wide. Just make sure you have the right kind of players.

[beverage1982]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You would players that can pass the ball effectively for one thing. Going wider will also reduce the effectiveness of the counter press as well. Since players are further positioned, when they lose the ball it might get harder to win the ball back as a pack. Counter pressing is really on effective on systems that aren’t very wide. So the furthest I might go with width settings is standard.

 

if you are willing to take that risk then the concept can still work, much like the current 4231 I have been sharing on the latest episode of  Creating Tactics on YouTube. The width will allow you to switch play to an IF/RMD that attacks the space aggressively. Focus play is now very strong on FM21, if you want to generate overloads and score some rippers then yes you can go wide. Just make sure you have the right kind of players.

That's great thank you sir. I'm trying to recreate Villa's current set up and overloading makes a lot of sense for that, mainly building up on the left where Targett overlaps Grealish who combines with Barkley. The issue is that Villa are quite direct, which is why I'm thinking of changing it up. 

 

Will continue to tinker. Appreciate it again! 

[Domoboy23]

Have I been getting this wrong all this time?

If I wanted my IF on my left wing to get more chances, I always thought focus play down the left would be effective as I presumed focusing play down the middle would make the team less tempted to pass down that flank and instead drive down the middle, and also say for my right winger to come inside more. Focus play and width has never confused me more than on this edition

[denen123]

On 12/01/2021 at 23:01, thesharmz said:

This is exactly where I am. First few games, I scored loads. Then we seemed to stop creating chances. 

I've also adapted the formation and created a 4-1-2-2-1, which I feel suits my squad better. @Rashidi - any tips on reviving a team when the chances dry up? And how would you set up in a 4-1-2-2-1? I've attached how I'm setting up, if you're willing to offer any tips....

No middle runner. Teams will eventually adjust to it.

[ThomasHK1979]

On 28/01/2021 at 22:56, Rashidi said:

You would players that can pass the ball effectively for one thing. Going wider will also reduce the effectiveness of the counter press as well. Since players are further positioned, when they lose the ball it might get harder to win the ball back as a pack. Counter pressing is really on effective on systems that aren’t very wide. So the furthest I might go with width settings is standard.

 

if you are willing to take that risk then the concept can still work, much like the current 4231 I have been sharing on the latest episode of  Creating Tactics on YouTube. The width will allow you to switch play to an IF/RMD that attacks the space aggressively. Focus play is now very strong on FM21, if you want to generate overloads and score some rippers then yes you can go wide. Just make sure you have the right kind of players.

Thanks for the tactic @Rashidi . A couple of questions

1) But what do you do when you don’t create any chances in games? What do you adjust?

2) Have anybody avtually had any succes with this tactic? I never managed to get any sucess with it.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by ThomasHK1979

[Kevinho7]

On 30/03/2021 at 23:15, ThomasHK1979 said:

Thanks for the tactic @Rashidi . A couple of questions

1) But what do you do when you don’t create any chances in games? What do you adjust?

2) Have anybody avtually had any succes with this tactic? I never managed to get any sucess with it.

 

 

I actually won the treble with Ajax in my first season at the club with this tactic. 
 

 

[Kevinho7]

On 14/06/2021 at 16:54, Kevinho7 said:

I actually won the treble with Ajax in my first season at the club with this tactic. 
 

 

@Rashidi I did made some slight changes to the tactic since i’m playing with Ajax and not Bayern.

For example i play Gravenberch and Alvarez in centre midfield so I used the DLP(s) role for Gravenberch and the CM(d) role for Alvarez. And the roles for the amc position are based on which player is taking up the spot. Usually i play Klaassen in the AM(a) role because he makes them runs into the box, and when Kudus plays he is playing a AP(a) role because he’s more of a playmaker. Also i did not use the split block but played with a higher defensive line and higher line of engagement together with a more urgent pressing mentality because Ajax starts to press collectively high up the pitch, and prevents the short goalkeeper distribution to force long balls. 

The balancing of mentalities is spot on with this tactic and i do think the playing styles of Bayern and Ajax are almost similar. But to fit it slighty more for Ajax is why i made that couple of small changes to it. 
The AI often just can’t handle the fluidity of this tactic and I think the results speak for themselves. 
 

Greetings!

Edited June 18, 2021 by Kevinho7

[Macgreg]

Is there a link to download this tactics? Or what PIs have you used for the tactics

[NotSoSpecialOne]

15 hours ago, Macgreg said:

Is there a link to download this tactics? Or what PIs have you used for the tactics

ST: Mark Tighter

AML: Roam From Position, Mark Tighter, Close Down More

AMR: Roam From Position, Mark Tighter, Close Down More

AMC:  Mark Tighter

MCL: More Direct Passes

These are the PIs used if I remember correctly.

[Rashidi]

I don't think i uploaded the tactic, if i had wanted to upload tactics I would have done it in the tactics sub forum. The idea being this thread was to make sure people understand there are many ways to play a 4231 and that you can get some interesting variations from roles. I just played against someone who played a 4231 with 3 trequartistas, so it was fun to watch it in transition

[Luizinho]

On 23/11/2020 at 21:16, Rashidi said:

Bayern employ a double pivot with Tiago and Kimmich in midfield. Leon Goertzka is their other option in central midfield, while in attack Sergi Gnabry is the one who takes the left flank with Ivan Perisic as the other option.

In possession Bayern’s fullbacks will push higher up the pitch and provide the width. The wingers tuck inside and occupy the half spaces. Between the two fullbacks the more adventurous one is usually Davies. The side frequently looks like a 2-3-5 in possession.

In attack there is plenty of fluidity. Serge Gnabry and Kingsley Coman sometimes swap positions. Lewandowski will also deep allowing both wide players to attack the box. And with Thomas Mueller given free reign to roam, Bayern’s attack can devastatingly unpredictable. Typical in their movement patterns is the sight of their centre forward dropping deep during their attack phase.

This thread is great.

@Rashidi I wanted to understand your logic around the wide forward roles you use. Would you mind explaining your thinking?

Specifically interested to see why you feel Gnabry isn't an Attack role?

Also why you feel Gnabry is a Inside Forward and Coman is an Inverted Winger?

[Dj-Voodoo]

3 hours ago, Luizinho said:

This thread is great.

@Rashidi I wanted to understand your logic around the wide forward roles you use. Would you mind explaining your thinking?

Specifically interested to see why you feel Gnabry isn't an Attack role?

Also why you feel Gnabry is a Inside Forward and Coman is an Inverted Winger?

Rashidi explains: on a team mentality of Balanced, an IF(s) has a player mentality of Positive. This is a good approximation of Gnabry's mentality when he plays IRL (wingers at Bayern have to track back at times).

 

Gnabry also plays an IF role in real life, preferring to be narrower and more direct than a regular W or IW. While Coman IRL tends to play as a classic IW, attack the wings with speed and cut in to spray a pass or take a shot. 

[Aquaplex]

On 01/10/2021 at 20:56, Dj-Voodoo said:

Rashidi explains: on a team mentality of Balanced, an IF(s) has a player mentality of Positive. This is a good approximation of Gnabry's mentality when he plays IRL (wingers at Bayern have to track back at times).

 

Gnabry also plays an IF role in real life, preferring to be narrower and more direct than a regular W or IW. While Coman IRL tends to play as a classic IW, attack the wings with speed and cut in to spray a pass or take a shot. 

Depends on opposition.  Sometimes the wide players stretch the field and start out really wide. 

[Zambrox]

Il 23/11/2020 in 22:16 , Rashidi ha scritto:

This is perhaps one of the more interesting challenges on Football Manager, and it is a good exercise in using FM21’s overpowered Focus play instructions to create overloads. Hansi Flick’s Bayern side have great attacking output, averaging around 2.6xG per game, scoring on average 3.19 goals per game with an xGA of around 0.93.

Under Flick Bayern lineup mostly as a 4231, it’s their most frequently used formation. This replication is based on their 20/21 side when they had Tiago Alacantara. This was a side that had Pavard, Alaba, Boateng and Alphonso Davies in defence.

Bayern employ a double pivot with Tiago and Kimmich in midfield. Leon Goertzka is their other option in central midfield, while in attack Sergi Gnabry is the one who takes the left flank with Ivan Perisic as the other option.

In possession Bayern’s fullbacks will push higher up the pitch and provide the width. The wingers tuck inside and occupy the half spaces. Between the two fullbacks the more adventurous one is usually Davies. The side frequently looks like a 2-3-5 in possession.

In attack there is plenty of fluidity. Serge Gnabry and Kingsley Coman sometimes swap positions. Lewandowski will also deep allowing both wide players to attack the box. And with Thomas Mueller given free reign to roam, Bayern’s attack can devastatingly unpredictable. Typical in their movement patterns is the sight of their centre forward dropping deep during their attack phase.

Bayern are narrow in possession allowing them to keep short pass lanes. As a result of this whenever they lose the ball, they are not too far away from the ball when they want to execute their press. Their overloads allow them to win the ball back quickly when they lose it.

When they build their play up they use overloads along the flanks. They shift towards the ball with several players and occupy the  ball near flank and half spaces with six to seven players. This allows them to create a numerical superiority and forces the opposition to commit more players there

Of particular importance is the role of Thomas Muller who operates in a free role allowing him to take part in the overloads and this frees up space for Lewandowski and the two wide players to attack.

Their marking style is fairly aggressive, they defend man against man within the backline.  Lewandowski and Muller can be seen pressing opposition central defenders. While their double pivot does press opposition players, usually one is free to pick up the second ball.

FM21 Replication

The Bayern replication for FM21 becomes an exercise in balancing mentality and using the focus instructions to generate the kind of football I want.

We can use focus play down the flanks to generate the overloads, and since we are using a 4231 I am a bit hesitant about using overlaps. This is one replication which will also study individual mentalities within the tactic.

If I keep the team mentality to Balanced, several roles will still be operating on different mentalities these include:

• Inside Forward: Attacking
• Wingback (A): Positive
• Fullback (A): Positive
• Trequartista (A): Attacking
• Complete Forward (S) : Cautious

My attention is focused on our build-up play. I am keenly paying attention to how we transition the ball from defence to attack paying attention to our overloads, which are expected to happen on either flank when we have the ball, like in the next image.

I have decided to let the assistant manager choose the starting 11 and he has gone with this lineup

As we build up play down the right, note where Muller has ended up, his role is that of a TQ allowing him the freedom to move about in the final third. One of my conditions for this replication is to see Muller drifting around supporting the overloads as this is a core function of his in real life.

Here you can see Muller helping Kimmich who is bombing down the flanks as a fullback. Muller is free to receive the pass and drop a cross into the box for Lewandowski.

These are small attacking patterns that I am paying attention to.

Here Bayern are working the ball down the right flank again, and have an overload down that flank, if we lose the ball in possession it will also allow us to win it back effectively with the counter press!

 

While I can get the movement and all the patterns to work in the game, the one real issue is going to be getting the goal scoring numbers of Lewandowski to match real life. In my games Muller ended up topping the numbers at the club. So while its possible to get the movement, getting the real numbers is a slightly different matter

 

GENERATING OVERLOADS AND FINAL THIRD MOVEMENT

 

In order to generate the overloads I used focus play on both flanks. I avoided the use of overlaps so that I could use the wingback role on attack duty while maintaining the mentality of the IF and the IW. If I had used the overlap/underlap I would have to turn those on attack duty affecting the movement I wanted.

To generate more movement I either went for roaming roles for the front 3 or added the roaming instruction. I also added tight marking for the team in general as a PI and left it on the front 4 players. The CM(D) is given direct passing.

No other player instructions were used in the system.

Why balanced mentality? I start on Balance and keep it for most matches, unless I need to push for a result. I also add Defensive Narrow width or as its known in FM21 force opposition outside for away matches against difficult competition.

If you want to get Lewandowski banging in the goals then just change his duty to attack, you might lose some of the movement from him, but he will occasionally drop and swap positions with Muller

***This may not be a perfect replication for Bayern but I wanted to achieve several facets of their play which I am confident I did***

- Fluid attacking movement
- Counterpressing successfully through overloads

Naturally there is an inclination to copy these onto other teams and hope that this can be achieved, that is always going to be a challenge. This is a team with very good players, so its relatively easy to get this done with them. However the challenge goes up a lot if i wanted to do this with Arsenal for example. There I may need to consider changing the roles in midfield. I would still maintain the roles in the final third to get the movement I want and to use the roam player instruction as well. Of particular importance is the Trequartista. While the game says it won't tackle, surprisingly I get good defensive numbers out of him in my matches. I was really after the movement we get with the role to support players and also to achieve his late runs into the box. 

I thought of using the shadow striker as an alternative, but then he may not end up supporting play as wide as the corner flag.

Attributes needed for the system:

Generally a system like this depends on a host of mental attributes:Decisions, off the ball, anticipation, teamwork, work rate. These are all going to be important. One feature that they have is acceleration and to get the right kind of attacking patterns out of the wingback we will need pace and acceleration in quite a few roles: Wingback, IF and IW. 

There are going to be times when the centre is vulnerable and if i meet sides that play with aggressive AMCs or central attacking overloads I may consider dropping my defensive width to force the opposition wide as I have done in the tactic above.

I will be updating this thread over time as I continue this replication and I will also take it to other teams to see how they do and whether I need to make slight modifications. I am pretty sure I will need to. There is a livestream on my youtube channel where i will be doing creating this and showing how I adapt if I need to later on my youtube channel. You can find links to that in the community links channel.

This is just one of the attacking movements I was after.

 

File tactic download please? tks

[Gee_Simpson]

4 hours ago, Zambrox said:

File tactic download please? tks

Tbh you don't need one, all the info you need is in the OP including a screenshot of the tactic. 

[smeagoltonez]

I wondered what peoples' thoughts were on using narrow width along with two attacking wide players who cut inside - isn't that rather one-dimensional & easier to predict & defend against? Or is it Muller's link up play that makes this tactic tick?

I ask as I often see recommendations to play one winger to provide width with the IW or IF on the other side of the pitch cutting inside.

Strangely, I had most success when playing with two IF after changing my settings to play with more width. I assumed that this was because the players stretched the pitch before cutting inside - does that sound right?

[ThomasHK1979]

@RashidiIm playing your tactic in FM22. Although the results overall are good, I’m struggling to get my AMC (Treq) to perform. Any thoughts?

[Aoyao]

在 2021/1/29 在 AM5点56分, Rashidi说:

You would players that can pass the ball effectively for one thing. Going wider will also reduce the effectiveness of the counter press as well. Since players are further positioned, when they lose the ball it might get harder to win the ball back as a pack. Counter pressing is really on effective on systems that aren’t very wide. So the furthest I might go with width settings is standard.

 

if you are willing to take that risk then the concept can still work, much like the current 4231 I have been sharing on the latest episode of  Creating Tactics on YouTube. The width will allow you to switch play to an IF/RMD that attacks the space aggressively. Focus play is now very strong on FM21, if you want to generate overloads and score some rippers then yes you can go wide. Just make sure you have the right kind of players.

Amazing 

[Skywalk3r83]

Testing it with a couple of games this weekend with my Dortmund and Ajax squad. Can confirm that this tactic still works very well. You need the players for it of course.