Still too easy?

[Svenc]

36 minutes ago, Outrospective said:

The game just calculates that one of the teams should score, so a LB with 3 in long shots pulls off Roberto Carlos all of a sudden.

This is not how the game has ever worked, neither back then nor now. The game has never calculated that a goal was scored beforehand, so fabricates arbitrary highlights of how a goal is being scored (the engine doesn't actually "know" a goal was going to be scored until the sequence of play is actually finished with a goal). 

This is FM 101, really. Otherwise, players as well as AI managers would have never been able to actually influence the course of matches and results.  Actually, it's a semi-common FM Myth from way back that all you get to see were arbitrary highlights. Whatever players you ever followed looking for advice given your struggles -- if any -- it were the wrong ones.  I personally actually think it's quite worrying that these still exist. But then, back on early FM 2015 a significant portion of FM's userbase attributed the semi-regular hockey scorelines also to keepers being rubbish, rather than advanced players given an attack duty not at all tracking back to defend until this was patched, and many more (apparently a significant amount of players thus doesn't ever even watch at least a couple sequences of play from a half decent angle).

That's not a criticism, mind. I just find it worrying and I'm clueless outside of ever improving feedback how to better deal with this in the future. That feedback needs to be balanced though, as it may spoon-feed and make the game easier for players who prefer to connect the dots themselves. Maybe by making such feedback optional.

Additionally, a 3 in long shots has never meant a player could never score a screamer. In particular as these 1-20 ratings are 1-20 ratings on a "footballer" scale, not on a pub team player (1) to world class (20) scale. This goes some more so if the shooter finds himself in time and space. Naturally, in the longer run of a couple season/s, there should be a difference between the 1 and 20 player. (Accuracy of ranged shots shifts some in between releases though).

Edited April 1, 2021 by Svenc

[Outrospective]

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

This is not how the game has ever worked, neither back then nor now. The game has never calculated that a goal was scored beforehand, so fabricates arbitrary highlights of how a goal is being scored (the engine doesn't actually "know" a goal was going to be scored until the sequence of play is actually finished with a goal). 

What makes you think so?

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

Otherwise, players as well as AI managers would have never been able to actually influence the course of matches and results. 

So, how do instant result skins function?

[Platinum]

3 hours ago, Outrospective said:

The worst part is that screamers are scored not because the logic of the game dictates the player with high long shots attribute to try shooting. The game just calculates that one of the teams should score, so a LB with 3 in long shots pulls off Roberto Carlos all of a sudden.

 

How have you come to this conclusion?

[HUNT3R]

4 hours ago, Outrospective said:

What makes you think so?

Quote

 

Can assure you there's been a significant amount of work going on with our match engine team over the past few versions to improve a whole host of aspects across the game. Notable the AI has been vastly improved, numerous animations have been added and the graphical side is constantly being worked on to increase the capabilities of what appears (all whilst still trying to keep those on lower-spec machines from being cut off).

Remember with the match engine it's a representation of football. It isn't 100% perfect. Each chance that happens is calculated based on all the many many factors which happen within the FM gameworld and match situation at that time. There is no difference between what can happen for the player or the AI - if there's such a thing as 'superkeepers' (which for the record we've seen nothing in the code to suggest this) then the AI would encounter it just as often as the player.

The player will always have an advantage over the AI because they have more freedom to think and experiment. We tend to find players use much more attacking and aggressive tactics as a whole, which can cause them to create more chances overall, but often leave themselves exposed at the back which means the AI get much easier chances on the counter attack. This can cause imbalanced match stats where a player has had lots of shots (not always from good positions) and not converted, where the AI has very few shots, but those they do have are from extremely good positions which are converted.

This is partly why our moderators use tactical reasoning as a starting point for issues raised on our forums. 

Everything influences the match, to the extent if I tried to list everything here it'd take an extremely long time.

Aside from the many external factors which can influence (weather, player morale, importance of match, referee, where the fixture takes place, whether the away team has had to travel a significant distance for the fixture etc) every single attribute (both hidden and visible) for every single player has it taken into account, but certain elements will change every time a match is 'replayed'. Absolutely there is a random element in game much like there is real life, whereby luck and chance will be involved.

For instance, your best player makes a costly mistake in the first minute of match one - this affects him with an instant drop in confidence and he has a poor game, struggling to find his form. In match two, he makes a key assist, gains confidence and plays exceptionally well. 

The role of the manager is to use all the elements they have at their disposal (player recruitment, tactics, form management, team talks etc) to make the best choices possible for each and every fixture. But even in doing so, even if you get everything absolutely perfect, in some instances you will still lose or draw a match you would expect to win. That is football in real life. That is also how it works in FM. The game does not 'decide' you are suddenly going to lose because it's programmed that way. You only win or lose depending on the hundreds of factors which go into every match which is then calculated in the match engine based on every single decision that happens. For every pass, each player will use their attributes (such as vision and decisions) to calculate all the available options for said pass. Higher the vision, more options available. Once in that split-second they've decided what pass to play, more attributes are used (such as passing, composure and technique) for the player to attempt said pass.  But even then other factors will determine whether the pass is successful - the other player's anticipation and positioning, whether the ball is played hard or soft and is affected by the wind, whether an opposing player has very high anticipation and decisions to intercept the ball. 

A huge number of calculations are used just for one pass. Now multiply that across the entire game for every single thing that happens in the match, there are thousands if not millions. And bear in mind for every single calculation the match engine does not determine any difference between the AI and the user player - this is not a factor taken into account. 

So when you ask what decides the result of the match, it's pretty much everything. Except whether the teams are AI controlled or user controlled. As this is not something used in any calculation. 

But all the above has to sit into the constraints of trying to produce an accurate representation of football. It's not an easy task and we've never claimed it is. But it's something we're extremely passionate about and work incredibly hard towards. Some people may feel the ME has become more restricted or predictable, but we disagree. The elements worked on under the hood are pretty extraordinary and whilst the payoff may not always be obvious to the casual observer, I can assure you the building blocks are in place to continue to make strides forward in making the game more realistic. 

Saying all of that (and I'm aware we're in TL;DR territory here), there are always going to be anomalies and matches where you get 'FM'd' - largely this is down to the point I made above; the general inclination of user to play attacking, expansive football compared to the AI's generally more conservative approach. But there will be occasions where someone is just plain unlucky. If you're being 'unlucky' a lot, there has to be a responsibility on the manager that there is something clearly not right. Now you may feel aggrieved if you feel this is less a 'football' mistake and more a 'match engine' mistake, but within your FM gameworld they are the same. We aim one day for the two things to be absolutely interchangeable and already we feel we're well on our way there. But without trying to speak disparagingly about older versions of the game (which I hasten to add I worked on), when you had a match engine where players could literally run through each other and pacy players ran amok, I don't think there's a real provable claim that it's a 'better' match engine.

 

Hopefully that helps.

4 hours ago, Outrospective said:

So, how do instant result skins function?

Matches are calculated in seconds.

When we're involved in a match, it still calculates all the thousands of decisions in a match to determine what happens that half and then we're shown the highlights. Any change we make, recalculates what happens that half.

[Svenc]

8 hours ago, Outrospective said:

What makes you think so?

So, how do instant result skins function?

My Critique of FM10 (long post) - Football Manager General Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com) (Ov Collyer's post on page three).

[quote]

The argument seems to be that the ME generates some arbitrary action to fit the fact a goal isn't going to be scored.

It simply doesn't work that way. The match engine doesn't know during the course of a move whether or not a goal is going to be scored until it happens or the chance is missed.

The only clause in the above is that sections of the match are run twice, once to determine if a goal gets scored and thus to select it as a highlight. But the second run through has no knowledge of the first run-through, generating the exact same logical and animation sequence as the first play through with exactly the same outcome. How do we do this? By what we call 'seeding the random number generator'. This means we can effectively 'rewind time' from the match engine's perspective by ensuring the same random number sequence used to influence the outcome during the first play through occur in the second play through, with the exact same outcome.

But the bottom line is when two players are running side by side in either play through, the ME doesn't know whether it's going to lead to a goal or not. The only entity that 'knows' this is the higher level highlights picker but that has no impact on in-match calculations, indeed the ME doesn't even know it exists.[/quote]

 

Plus own analysis / match reading.  The ME were a complete bust too if it worked the way you suggested. I'd never been able to barely concede a goal past the 75th minute mark (as I made the team recycle the ball / sit on a lead, visibly) on a previous release if it were like that too. Plus, on the occasion, reporting bugs such as this marking bug: A player had instructed his wide backs (team in dark kits in possession at the start of the vid) to man mark the opposition wingers.

Sevilla FC vs Club Atl�tico de Madrid - 32 minutes - YouTube

Yet, when his team drops the ball and the counter attack starts, the wide backs run BEHIND the wingers they are supposed to man mark, gifting them tons of acceleration space. On both left and right flank, they remain chasing the wingers all throughout the sequence. At the end of the sequence thus, they arrive completely unmarked in the box, both combine for the goal to be scored, and naturally, the opposition shot conversion went through the roof.  What you see, including all the second by second on and off the ball positioning, is what's being simulated. A goal is scored when one of the sequences of play eventually leads to a goal. "Fixing" ME bugs thus likewise involves addressing this second by second behavior (in this case the bugged marking), otherwise, the opposition team would score easy goals over and over again.

I've never used instant result skins, but I reckon they work the same as if you'd holiday through a match: The assistant manager then takes over match management (which he can already do, and you can actaully have success that way, but to me it's not a tactical assistant proper).

Edited April 2, 2021 by Svenc

[Mcfc1894]

4 hours ago, Svenc said:

My Critique of FM10 (long post) - Football Manager General Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com) (Ov Collyer's post on page three).

[quote]

The argument seems to be that the ME generates some arbitrary action to fit the fact a goal isn't going to be scored.

It simply doesn't work that way. The match engine doesn't know during the course of a move whether or not a goal is going to be scored until it happens or the chance is missed.

The only clause in the above is that sections of the match are run twice, once to determine if a goal gets scored and thus to select it as a highlight. But the second run through has no knowledge of the first run-through, generating the exact same logical and animation sequence as the first play through with exactly the same outcome. How do we do this? By what we call 'seeding the random number generator'. This means we can effectively 'rewind time' from the match engine's perspective by ensuring the same random number sequence used to influence the outcome during the first play through occur in the second play through, with the exact same outcome.

But the bottom line is when two players are running side by side in either play through, the ME doesn't know whether it's going to lead to a goal or not. The only entity that 'knows' this is the higher level highlights picker but that has no impact on in-match calculations, indeed the ME doesn't even know it exists.[/quote]

 

Plus own analysis / match reading.  The ME were a complete bust too if it worked the way you suggested. I'd never been able to barely concede a goal past the 75th minute mark (as I made the team recycle the ball / sit on a lead, visibly) on a previous release if it were like that too. Plus, on the occasion, reporting bugs such as this marking bug: A player had instructed his wide backs (team in dark kits in possession at the start of the vid) to man mark the opposition wingers.

Sevilla FC vs Club Atl�tico de Madrid - 32 minutes - YouTube

Yet, when his team drops the ball and the counter attack starts, the wide backs run BEHIND the wingers they are supposed to man mark, gifting them tons of acceleration space. On both left and right flank, they remain chasing the wingers all throughout the sequence. At the end of the sequence thus, they arrive completely unmarked in the box, both combine for the goal to be scored, and naturally, the opposition shot conversion went through the roof.  What you see, including all the second by second on and off the ball positioning, is what's being simulated. A goal is scored when one of the sequences of play eventually leads to a goal. "Fixing" ME bugs thus likewise involves addressing this second by second behavior (in this case the bugged marking), otherwise, the opposition team would score easy goals over and over again.

I've never used instant result skins, but I reckon they work the same as if you'd holiday through a match: The assistant manager then takes over match management (which he can already do, and you can actaully have success that way, but to me it's not a tactical assistant proper).

I sure I seen an SI post saying the ME decides what it's going to do before it's shows you on the graphics engine and it only re calculates it self when you make a Substitute, Tactical change or a shout, 

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, Mcfc1894 said:

I sure I seen an SI post saying the ME decides what it's going to do before it's shows you on the graphics engine and it only re calculates it self when you make a Substitute, Tactical change or a shout, 

Yes, that's something different to what Outrospective claimed though. Basically, things are actually simulated before you get to see anything, so that the highlights picker knows where a highlight is. (If things weren't simulated in advance, the highlights wouldN't work). Naturally, tactical changes cause recalculations / resimulations from that minute on (because else those tactical changes would have no effect). That does not change that the ME is a kick by kick second by second simulation. Outrospective claimed the ME would decide that a goal was going to be scored beforehand, so fabricates completely arbitrary highlights to fit that (e.g. the player with a low rating in long shots arbitrarily scoring a screamer because the ME has decided a goal was now going to be scored).

It's completely the other way 'round. Goals are scored because players in the second by second sim have eventually done it. As that is still a semi-prominent FM Myth, no wonder some feel everything to be random, whilst others less so. You can't ever make logical decisions if you go with bad (and evidently) wrong theory that the match play you get to see would be merely random windows dressing. Such as some of the guides on these side suggest, e.g. Creating Tactics - The Book of Roles - Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com)

Edited April 2, 2021 by Svenc

[baris28]

I remember Roberto Carlos in Fenerbahçe only has only 1 good long shot on goal and excellent diving header goal which you shouldn't expect from leftback. But it was his later years in his career.

But anyway I believe it is still ongoing process how the goals scored according to attributes in game. I don'y buy the sentence about -to justify some strange goals from unexpected players- saying professional footballers between 1-20 attribuıte doesn't matter much. Then of course community will question the simulation.

[Svenc]

Yeah, actual ME faults naturally have to go away. What's become apparent to me in general is that there's also a HUUUUGE difference between having success on this game (many/most do) ---- and understanding WHY you have this success. (Would be interesting how many of the download "super tactics" are purely trial&error jobs, whilst we're at that). In a sense, that's a game failure too. 

Until that gap closes there will always be bad theory and even accusations of AI cheating. This can only ever done by honing the ME, and at least optionally improving feedback (readability of the match play, assistant advice, understanding AI match management).

Then again, cheating theory will always be there (unless they tweaked things to actually be biased towards the player, which they hopefully won't).  

Gamasutra - Analysis: Game AI & Our Cheatin’ Hearts

 

I mean, take a look at this thread. Guy's winning everything there is, barely losing, but every time the **** hits the fan, it must be the game being rigged. 

No way should this be happening - Football Manager General Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com)

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Svenc

[Icy]

hace 5 horas, Svenc dijo:

Yeah, actual ME faults naturally have to go away. What's become apparent to me in general is that there's also a HUUUUGE difference between having success on this game (many/most do) ---- and understanding WHY you have this success. (Would be interesting how many of the download "super tactics" are purely trial&error jobs, whilst we're at that). In a sense, that's a game failure too. 

 

Good point that also leads to some of us frustration. A few of us, want a tough and realistic challenge, but also to feel we have accomplished something without "cheating" even if not on purpose. 

My problem right now that is making me to lose my interest in my save, is that I have reached a point with Crewe Alessandra where I'm not sure if I'm overachieving (4th in the Premier in January, with the lowest payroll in the whole league by a huge margin and that means huge profits, 40M already in the bank and building new stadium) because I'm doing a good but realistic work, or if i have found by accident a "super tactic" (don't think so, positive 4-2-4 with only 2 attacking roles, standard LOE and high LOD, standard pressing, most of goals are counters and through balls to my AF or my F9 or right IF taking the space left by the F9). Or if i'm gaming the AI signing young players from top teams that they shouldn't have allow them to go for free or cheap, even if i only sign players previously recommended and scouted by my scouting team and I never visit the search players page. Staff hiring is also another problem, my coaching staff is the best rated in the premier and for cheap as well.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Icy

[Mars_Blackmon]

Agreed, I only recruit players that my staff scouted. I have a rule of only one trial at a time and I can only offer trials to players that have been scouted before and they must be without a team. I use it as a way to quickly get full knowledge for specific players.

 

Gaining a player’s interest to move to your team is also fairly easy. Especially for a low rep team. I shouldn’t be able to easily get a former EPL youth player at level 7-10 non league team. That player should be favoring National League or League two teams.

[Zoolok42]

On 01/04/2021 at 23:41, Outrospective said:

And still, 10 years ago, when I was actively playing (had a gap for 6-7 years before FM20 and 21) the game was much easier and I knew for sure what my actions will contribute to. For now it's a black box and guessing game for me.

Back then when scouting report was limited to "competent", "exceptional" or "mediocre" team description I just new what game mentality I should use to win. Now I get the tactical analysis which is pointless beacuse I can't switch my tactics on a whim - at least, between those I did not train specifically.

Also, I mean, I don't really know how ME works and calculates. My problem is that there is no difference in 3D match, be it Yeovil or Barcelona, they just run, pass and score 30-meter screamers. The worst part is that screamers are scored not because the logic of the game dictates the player with high long shots attribute to try shooting. The game just calculates that one of the teams should score, so a LB with 3 in long shots pulls off Roberto Carlos all of a sudden.

And after this I come here and see how some internet user with downloaded tactic designed to break the ME complains how the game is easy. FML.

This is simply wrong thinking, and probably the reason why you are struggling with the game.

 

[edit] I hadnt realized this was already addressed, my bad.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Zoolok42

[baris28]

I believe from this feedback here first staff and player transfers should be harder.  I agree.  And lets's go away from this argument 'people use cheat tactics' I don't use anytime since I've registered in 2006. Match AI, AI suad building should be better. Plain and simple. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by baris28

[Outrospective]

10 hours ago, Zoolok42 said:

This is simply wrong thinking, and probably the reason why you are struggling with the game.

Guys, I got it, you will defend the game no matter what. Yeah, I'm wrong, ME is perfect, it's my tactics and all that jazz. Honestly, I've never though that FM community will be so overprotective of the game given that it plays its for decades and knows all of its flaws. Kinda funny that Miles said FM reddit was toxic once.

On the sidenote I've concocted some attacking tactic and currently feel relatively safe with it, playing as relegation candidates in RPL (yeah, attacking tactic with extremely urgent pressing. Realism much). My main point remains the same, the match engine doesn't show you how your tactics matter. I've noted that the defense is slow and added early crosses after my striker has received the ball from cross several times and smashed it into the skies. We scored from the next corner kick after I added early crosses. Why from corner when 15 finishing and 12 composure striker fires above the crossbar from 3 meters? Why AFTER adding early crosses the same striker has scored in the situation identical to previous misses? The game communicates to me that tactic is not working and needs tweaking but its feedback is really underwhelming.

To make the pill less bitter, it seems that engine somehow reacts to the changes that you do when you DEFEND. At least it stopped giving penalties against me in every match after I have set the tackling to easy.

 

[Outrospective]

15 hours ago, Svenc said:

What's become apparent to me in general is that there's also a HUUUUGE difference between having success on this game (many/most do) ---- and understanding WHY you have this success. (Would be interesting how many of the download "super tactics" are purely trial&error jobs, whilst we're at that). In a sense, that's a game failure too. 

Correct. That's what I was talking about. The game doesn't show why I had constant failures as well.

In all honesty, CM 01/02 was perfect when it had only the text commentary.

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, Outrospective said:

Correct. That's what I was talking about. The game doesn't show why I had constant failures as well.

This could be improved by a few of things (already made a few suggestions --- the xG stat now in the game which SHOULD help on average and in the longer run of things I've also been advocating for years as the "clear-cut chances" have plain never worked -- they lacked definitions to begin with). On FM (outside of bugs) and in football, sides that create the better chances have always had higher chances to win football matches (which does not mean that the team with the better chances always wins). Whilst stats in isolation aren't everything (and many actually manage purely by final match stats): That's being finally expressed now more clearly and with more nuances. 

That said, out of interest: Given your theory that the engine would show random highlights how goals are scored, and that the match play wasn't "genuine", have you ever tried to read what was going on? And what are your personal issues with it? The entire thread is criticism of the game (albeit from a specific part of its audience).  It isn't called "Game's fine", its called "game's too easy".Therefore, people pointing out that you have a wrong idea how the game worked was being done because if you further insisted on that any highlight/ goal you get to see was arbitrary, you will always find the game to be too "hard", or at least harder than it can be.

Being able to read the second by second match play and making decisions based on that is actually where one of your biggest advantages over the game's AI is.

For the time being btw. there was a pretty neat FM myth busting thread a while back.  

Greatest FM myths - Football Manager General Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com)

Edited April 6, 2021 by Svenc

[Outrospective]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

Being able to read the second by second match play and making decisions based on that is actually where one of your biggest advantages over the game's AI is.

I agree. But I have to point out that when my striker hits the post from 2 meters or can't kick the ball in the empty goal (I literally had both cases a day ago), it's a pretty far-fetched feedback from the game which doesn't actually make any sense in terms of me improving tactics. Another case (I'm probably biased here, lol) is why the opposition defenders are throwing themselves to block the shots from killer range? Also why their lone wingers may run from the depth of their half with the ball and score like Andrey Arshavin to Liverpool and my winger when recieveing the ball and running to the goal is successfully chased and tackled? This also happens on regular basis and that's not the case that they have like 20 pace guys, our stats are pretty much equal. The winger also doesn/t have any instructions like "waiting for overlaps".

If the game wants to show me that my tactics are bad and ineffective it shouldn't resort to illusion of my team making constant chances and failing to convert them (hence all "FMed" memes). That's why I'm inclined to believe that match engine doesn't show things related to my tactics and doesn't making it easier to improve it. Although it's a primary source of game feedback to the player.

 

On the myth part, back in early '00s I just knew that if you shake the mouse during the text highlight, it will result in a goal.

[Sharkn20]

11 minutes ago, Outrospective said:

I agree. But I have to point out that when my striker hits the post from 2 meters or can't kick the ball in the empty goal (I literally had both cases a day ago), it's a pretty far-fetched feedback from the game which doesn't actually make any sense in terms of me improving tactics. Another case (I'm probably biased here, lol) is why the opposition defenders are throwing themselves to block the shots from killer range? Also why their lone wingers may run from the depth of their half with the ball and score like Andrey Arshavin to Liverpool and my winger when recieveing the ball and running to the goal is successfully chased and tackled? This also happens on regular basis and that's not the case that they have like 20 pace guys, our stats are pretty much equal. The winger also doesn/t have any instructions like "waiting for overlaps".

If the game wants to show me that my tactics are bad and ineffective it shouldn't resort to illusion of my team making constant chances and failing to convert them (hence all "FMed" memes). That's why I'm inclined to believe that match engine doesn't show things related to my tactics and doesn't making it easier to improve it. Although it's a primary source of game feedback to the player.

 

On the myth part, back in early '00s I just knew that if you shake the mouse during the text highlight, it will result in a goal.

Definitely bias.

ME is based in calculations based on probability. Once you learn what probability is and how the ME applies it during matches, you will enjoy FM a lot more.

This is not a binary ME where 0 is bad and 1 is goal.

Tactics will only get you so far, players will do the rest.

I don't know what level you are playing but 12 composure for a tier 1 striker is utterly rubbish.

[HUNT3R]

17 minutes ago, Outrospective said:

But I have to point out that when my striker hits the post from 2 meters or can't kick the ball in the empty goal (I literally had both cases a day ago), it's a pretty far-fetched feedback from the game which doesn't actually make any sense in terms of me improving tactics.

It's not always the tactic itself. Player attributes (things like Balance and Concentration.. or even Technique, depending on the chance) could play a part and so can Body Language, where a nervous or complacent player can fluff chances/make mistakes. Did the chance fall onto a player's left foot but he's actually right footed?

There are a lot of factors to consider, but it's hard to be more specific without seeing the chances.

[Outrospective]

9 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

I don't know what level you are playing but 12 composure for a tier 1 striker is utterly rubbish.

On my league level 12 composure is pretty decent.

8 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

It's not always the tactic itself. Player attributes (things like Balance and Concentration.. or even Technique, depending on the chance) could play a part and so can Body Language, where a nervous or complacent player can fluff chances/make mistakes. Did the chance fall onto a player's left foot but he's actually right footed?

There are a lot of factors to consider, but it's hard to be more specific without seeing the chances.

Yeah, I understand that there are too much variables to account for, but nowhere in the world a player controlling the ball should just stand and look at the empty goal, waiting for a defender to close down the shot

[Sharkn20]

9 minutes ago, Outrospective said:

On my league level 12 composure is pretty decent.

Yeah, I understand that there are too much variables to account for, but nowhere in the world a player controlling the ball should just stand and look at the empty goal, waiting for a defender to close down the shot

A player with low concentration, decisions or composure will get complacent with the chance, don't know what to do or buckle under pressure.

Search "El gol de Abreu" on Youtube and see yourself those things happen, rarely but they do happen.

[HUNT3R]

24 minutes ago, Outrospective said:

Yeah, I understand that there are too much variables to account for, but nowhere in the world a player controlling the ball should just stand and look at the empty goal, waiting for a defender to close down the shot

Possibly a poor first touch? Imo, that's something that needs to be shown more clearly in the ME though.

[Zoolok42]

12 hours ago, Outrospective said:

Guys, I got it, you will defend the game no matter what. Yeah, I'm wrong, ME is perfect, it's my tactics and all that jazz. Honestly, I've never though that FM community will be so overprotective of the game given that it plays its for decades and knows all of its flaws. Kinda funny that Miles said FM reddit was toxic once.

On the sidenote I've concocted some attacking tactic and currently feel relatively safe with it, playing as relegation candidates in RPL (yeah, attacking tactic with extremely urgent pressing. Realism much). My main point remains the same, the match engine doesn't show you how your tactics matter. I've noted that the defense is slow and added early crosses after my striker has received the ball from cross several times and smashed it into the skies. We scored from the next corner kick after I added early crosses. Why from corner when 15 finishing and 12 composure striker fires above the crossbar from 3 meters? Why AFTER adding early crosses the same striker has scored in the situation identical to previous misses? The game communicates to me that tactic is not working and needs tweaking but its feedback is really underwhelming.

To make the pill less bitter, it seems that engine somehow reacts to the changes that you do when you DEFEND. At least it stopped giving penalties against me in every match after I have set the tackling to easy.

 

If someone disagrees, they must be a fanatic about the game. I don't defend it no matter what, it's just that thinking that the game is out to get you or that it has "decided" that there has to be a goal, so it will come up with any scenario it can to make sure a goal happens is wrong.

All the communication you are lacking is in the match, try watching entire matches or at least comprehensive highlights, if you are not already doing so.

A lot of it also comes down to your understanding of football and how it matches with the game designers' views, so I do agree that is an issue that is causing a disconnect. I think they are trying hard to solve it, but a lot of the wording still doesn't make sense when setting up a tactic.

But why a striker misses a chance, well the first step is to figure out how good of a chance it really was. XG helps there a lot, I think.

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, Outrospective said:

If the game wants to show me that my tactics are bad and ineffective it shouldn't resort to illusion of my team making constant chances and failing to convert them (hence all "FMed" memes). That's why I'm inclined to believe that match engine doesn't show things related to my tactics and doesn't making it easier to improve it. Although it's a primary source of game feedback to the player.

What version are you on? That's why they'Ve introduced xG to FM21. (And from my experience, most FM players were pretty bad at judging the quality of chances -- probably not their fault, as TV analysis on this has always been pretty damn cack too, and that's what we'Ve all grown up on).  

xCommentary | StatsBomb

 

Ten years ago we've threads about this......  Lets Assume It's "MY" Fault (time to ask for help?) - Football Manager General Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com) (on page 3/4 starts the then purely subjective discussion about the quality of chances -- the guys actually having no problem scoring were ignored in favor of AI cheating theories and more). Now we finally have somewhat reliable numbers to back that up (that will also hopefully get tuned in the future).

Edited April 6, 2021 by Svenc

[zyfon5]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

What version are you on? That's why they'Ve introduced xG to FM21.

I have argued before that the introduction of xG will not reduce the number of comments that complained about why they are not scoring and I am glad that I am not proven wrong. My argument is simple: players that have develop the ability to create and identify a good scoring chance will be able to do so regardless of xG available or not while players that did not have such ability will fail to do so regardless of xG or not. They only know that it is a poor scoring chance but they do not know how to improve it. Worst case is people that have no idea about the limitations of xG wonder why a low xG chance by the AI hit the net while multiple chances of the similar xG by himself failed to find the net and hence draw conclusions that the system is rigged. 

Take this recent game for example: http://www.soccer-blogger.com/2021/04/03/xg-chelsea-wba-2021-expected-goals-stats-shots-map-cfc-2-5-west-bromwich-albion/ someone that is familiar with football analytics will know immediately from watching without looking at xG that West Brom scored from some really difficult chances that you do not expect to go in 90% of the time. Imagine if such extreme cases happened more in FM. The outrage that will follow lol.

[zindrinho]

10 hours ago, Svenc said:

 

Being able to read the second by second match play and making decisions based on that is actually where one of your biggest advantages over the game's AI is.

This! The game has gotten so good at speaking to us players, there's an infinite amount of info to be drawn out of every counter attack the AI does, who's the runner, who's the outlet, where are the holes in your team etc. If you react to this you simply dont concede in the game.

I went half season, 19 games 2 conceded goals with twente last FM, no transfers in just the same defence expected to fight relegation.

Reading info fron your own attacking play is harder since there's so many more players to watch simultaneously, but its all there. The game doesnt just throw random scripted events at you, next time just ask yourself Why am I seeing this highlight, what is the game trying to tell me?

[Zoolok42]

1 hour ago, zindrinho said:

This! The game has gotten so good at speaking to us players, there's an infinite amount of info to be drawn out of every counter attack the AI does, who's the runner, who's the outlet, where are the holes in your team etc. If you react to this you simply dont concede in the game.

I went half season, 19 games 2 conceded goals with twente last FM, no transfers in just the same defence expected to fight relegation.

Reading info fron your own attacking play is harder since there's so many more players to watch simultaneously, but its all there. The game doesnt just throw random scripted events at you, next time just ask yourself Why am I seeing this highlight, what is the game trying to tell me?

Exactly, as I keep saying, just watch the entire match or at the very least comprehensive highlights, until you are completely familiar with your own tactics, and the various ways the AI combats it. Combine that with still easy squad building, and after about one season, you can safely skip to key highlights, except for important matches (this is what I do, anyway). If you just watch the match play out, you should figure out what is happening, I mean, when you watch a real game of football, you do the same thing. Right? You don't have anyone sitting next to you and interpret the match for you while it's being played?

And even then, the game actually does this. You can rely on the text commentary bits and hits on what is happening, if you can't see it clearly from the match engine.

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

I have argued before that the introduction of xG will not reduce the number of comments that complained about why they are not scoring and I am glad that I am not proven wrong. My argument is simple: players that have develop the ability to create and identify a good scoring chance will be able to do so regardless of xG available or not while players that did not have such ability will fail to do so regardless of xG or not. They only know that it is a poor scoring chance but they do not know how to improve it.

This is also a really old post I'm going to link to, but that's also a good point: Having (statistical) feedback that there may be an issue is not the same as being able to fix that issue. (In this case, answering the question of how you may increase the chance of scoring against a particular opposition)

In a sense, this goes straight back to this old post I was about to link to. One of the keys indeed may be making players asking themselves the right questions in the first place (and being able to answer those questions via the game's tactical UI).... Not a Rant, But.... - Football Manager General Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com) (third page first post by wwfan back then).


[quote]

Can you answer these questions, conceptually, in terms of real football?

1: How do teams break down stubborn defences? Think Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea. Do they all do it the same way?

2: How to teams set up their defences/tactics to guard against the quick break?

3: What changes do teams make to their style of play in different weather conditions?

4: How do various teams see out tight games? Again, think of the top four, but include sides like Stoke and Bolton, who are past masters at this.

5: What type of role does Henry play? Messi? Owen? Berbatov? Rooney? Noble? Ferdinand? Walcott? Ashley Cole? Carragher? Can you see equivalents in FM? Can you apply them to various WHU players?

Translate these ideas into tactical shapes and shout strategies and experiment with them. Don't expect immediate results or free flowing football. Work out how to win from the bottom up.

....


If you are unwilling to even think in these terms, you will never get to grips with the ME.

[/quote]

As said, to me the solution would be tactical assistant manager proper (which would also benefit players who deem the game to be too "easy", as any assistant is AI all the same which would need improvements -- win win for both sides). That assistant manager would be optionally able to guide players through the thought process required, the UI, and also would be optionally able to take over match management himself naturally (but with added input of the player if wanted, such as choice in style of football as well as timing in-match decisions such as holding onto a lead, going for broke, trying keep damage to a minimum after an early 0-2 so as to not further damage team morale, etc.)

That's how I'd envision a "football simulation", no less as actual assistants in all areas have been part of manager job for long. However, I also suspect this would rub more traditionalist gamers actually the wrong way. I've already see traditionalist gaming press in Germany questioning that you can already be fairly successful in FM going on holiday... "What's the point in playing yourself when you could delegate EVERYTHING if you wanted to", they'd probably say.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Svenc

[Brother Ben]

On 05/04/2021 at 07:47, Svenc said:

I mean, take a look at this thread. Guy's winning everything there is, barely losing, but every time the **** hits the fan, it must be the game being rigged. 

No way should this be happening - Football Manager General Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com)

 

That thread has to be a wind up surely  

[Outrospective]

On 06/04/2021 at 14:36, Svenc said:

What version are you on? That's why they'Ve introduced xG to FM21. (And from my experience, most FM players were pretty bad at judging the quality of chances -- probably not their fault, as TV analysis on this has always been pretty damn cack too, and that's what we'Ve all grown up on).  

FM21. I don't really get the sense of xG in-hame, tbh. If you dominate but don't score, you will get high xG on cumulative basis. If you have high xG and no goals, the problem should be with forwards, which is strange sometimes - you can have a good series of matches and then you face that ****** away team with one point which is likely paying some shaman to ward off the goals in the match against you. The only reliable thing is to change the tactics and not always in the way which makes any sense.

On 06/04/2021 at 19:26, zindrinho said:

This! The game has gotten so good at speaking to us players, there's an infinite amount of info to be drawn out of every counter attack the AI does, who's the runner, who's the outlet, where are the holes in your team etc. If you react to this you simply dont concede in the game.

The game is so good at speaking to players, that I have finished fourth in the season I was supposed to be relegated playing with low engagement and very high defensive line. Clearly the way how IRL relegation candidates play, yes.

I mean, I've seen MUCH MORE through passes behind the backs of my defenders when I LOWERED the defensive line. Is it some kind of ME bug?

[zindrinho]

1 hour ago, Outrospective said:

The game is so good at speaking to players, that I have finished fourth in the season I was supposed to be relegated playing with low engagement and very high defensive line. Clearly the way how IRL relegation candidates play, yes.

I mean, I've seen MUCH MORE through passes behind the backs of my defenders when I LOWERED the defensive line. Is it some kind of ME bug?

I'm not sure I understand this one, the game speaks to the players no matter if the system you choose to play is realistic or not for how a relegation battling team would play IRL.. Not through stats but through the animation it shows you.

On your last point, again, you would have to look at the animations to know why, the game is telling you, you just gotta learn to read the match. My wild-ass-guess would be that your lowered DL would make your team less compact if you still press high, so once the opposition has played through your first line of defence (as in your attackers) they get way more time on the ball to pick out that pass compared to when your defence pressed up the pitch forcing larger pressure on the ball-playing opposition. Only you can know since you're the only one who sees your matches.

 

[RinusFM]

So after a few months I did quit FM again.

• Is FM easy? depends. You can go from zero to hero with any team outside England. It's only a bit difficult cause you can't built your club like English teams can. as example, in Ireland once I grew with million and millions.. I couldn't get a reserve and a 21 team. These could come in handy a lot. Storing young talents in reserve team, etc doing matches versus Irish other reserves, etc etc.
• Also Irish, Swedish, Norwegian teams do have it difficult cause there's no gameplay option to tell the organisator of said competition to switch to wintercalendar instead of summer. (i really wants this once EL/CL grouprounds is a regulary thing)
• You really need patience cause it takes years to build up a team that can do CL/EL every winter. I think in 4 seasons my Cork City as finally able to go into grouprounds. 5th season I was even lucky to go beyond. But it takes 10+ years to make it a worthy half-finalist, etc. 
• It can take 20+ years to make a competition grow in reputation, aka selling players for million, more pricemoney and all that. 
• I won't be mad if FM just concentrated on Wales, Schotland, N-Ireland, England and Ireland. So it's cheaper, bugs can be fixed better and all that. 

What broke me up quiting FM for good. Well at last for a couple of month. I am sure I will buy FM2022 cause I am stupid, haha. 

• It's always the same creep year after year, cause we can't copy our saves to a new version
• We received the last update, but there's still 1 gamebreaking bug, youth-bug and some others.. and they told us there won't be more updates cause all concentration will go to FM22. I hate this practice and it also made me quit FM19 and FM20 when I learned about this. It's bad and SI should feel bad. Having a broken game and then release a new version. It just doesn't rhyme. Why not fix the bugs in previous version that the new version has fixed. (And yeah. I keep buying FM cause I am still longing that CL-fix with Cork City, haha.)

Is the game easy? Depends on which team you pick. Is the game fun? Hella yeah, so many thing to learn. Is the game realistic? No. Cause no way Cork City survives into grouprounds 5 years later after being promoted to the Irish Premier League. 

Edit: bit offtopic: I strongly believe Si Games need to change the way Long-term managers get some love. Let us import saves from a previous version, etc. Just like Out of Park Baseball does. Also a little bit non-realistic stuff can help, like the calender-thingy I summed up and able to pick reserve and -23 / -21 once the club has the money for it, etc. I know licenses.. but still it's a game. 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by RinusFM

[Red Horizon]

4 hours ago, RinusFM said:

So after a few months I did quit FM again.

• Is FM easy? depends. You can go from zero to hero with any team outside England. It's only a bit difficult cause you can't built your club like English teams can. as example, in Ireland once I grew with million and millions.. I couldn't get a reserve and a 21 team. These could come in handy a lot. Storing young talents in reserve team, etc doing matches versus Irish other reserves, etc etc.
• Also Irish, Swedish, Norwegian teams do have it difficult cause there's no gameplay option to tell the organisator of said competition to switch to wintercalendar instead of summer. (i really wants this once EL/CL grouprounds is a regulary thing)
• You really need patience cause it takes years to build up a team that can do CL/EL every winter. I think in 4 seasons my Cork City as finally able to go into grouprounds. 5th season I was even lucky to go beyond. But it takes 10+ years to make it a worthy half-finalist, etc. 
• It can take 20+ years to make a competition grow in reputation, aka selling players for million, more pricemoney and all that. 
• I won't be mad if FM just concentrated on Wales, Schotland, N-Ireland, England and Ireland. So it's cheaper, bugs can be fixed better and all that. 

What broke me up quiting FM for good. Well at last for a couple of month. I am sure I will buy FM2022 cause I am stupid, haha. 

• It's always the same creep year after year, cause we can't copy our saves to a new version
• We received the last update, but there's still 1 gamebreaking bug, youth-bug and some others.. and they told us there won't be more updates cause all concentration will go to FM22. I hate this practice and it also made me quit FM19 and FM20 when I learned about this. It's bad and SI should feel bad. Having a broken game and then release a new version. It just doesn't rhyme. Why not fix the bugs in previous version that the new version has fixed. (And yeah. I keep buying FM cause I am still longing that CL-fix with Cork City, haha.)

Is the game easy? Depends on which team you pick. Is the game fun? Hella yeah, so many thing to learn. Is the game realistic? No. Cause no way Cork City survives into grouprounds 5 years later after being promoted to the Irish Premier League. 

Edit: bit offtopic: I strongly believe Si Games need to change the way Long-term managers get some love. Let us import saves from a previous version, etc. Just like Out of Park Baseball does. Also a little bit non-realistic stuff can help, like the calender-thingy I summed up and able to pick reserve and -23 / -21 once the club has the money for it, etc. I know licenses.. but still it's a game. 

 

Importing old saves onto a new version would be ****ing brilliant. 

 

If you play games on comprehensive the next version is out before you know it. 

[zindrinho]

8 hours ago, Red Horizon said:

If you play games on comprehensive the next version is out before you know it. 

Truer words, my friend!

[NEO-BAHAMUT-]

Too easy? I think not. I am managing Wealdstone in the Vanarama national league, top of the league all the way through to April where I then only won one game in 5.... I lost the league by one point on the last day of the season.... I then got through to the playoff Final, lost 2-1 in extra time. I then had the FA Trophy Final to also look forward to, 2-0 up with 10 minutes to go and lost 3-2..... I was tempted to quit and say the game is fixed.

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 hours ago, NEO-BAHAMUT- said:

Too easy? I think not. I am managing Wealdstone in the Vanarama national league, top of the league all the way through to April where I then only won one game in 5.... I lost the league by one point on the last day of the season.... I then got through to the playoff Final, lost 2-1 in extra time. I then had the FA Trophy Final to also look forward to, 2-0 up with 10 minutes to go and lost 3-2..... I was tempted to quit and say the game is fixed.

So you was on top most of the season then lost 4 and a few cups??? 
 

lol ok.

[Platinum]

22 hours ago, NEO-BAHAMUT- said:

Too easy? I think not. I am managing Wealdstone in the Vanarama national league, top of the league all the way through to April where I then only won one game in 5.... I lost the league by one point on the last day of the season.... I then got through to the playoff Final, lost 2-1 in extra time. I then had the FA Trophy Final to also look forward to, 2-0 up with 10 minutes to go and lost 3-2..... I was tempted to quit and say the game is fixed.

Wealdstone were predicted mid table so you over performed tbh.  Tbf though in lower league football in real life unexcepted teams get promoted and do well much more often compared to the Premier league

[NEO-BAHAMUT-]

4 hours ago, francis#17 said:

Wealdstone were predicted mid table so you over performed tbh.  Tbf though in lower league football in real life unexcepted teams get promoted and do well much more often compared to the Premier league

Yeah defo over achieved. Currently 10 games in and unbeaten. Hopefully this is my season...media prediction is 19th.

[HCFC87]

The game is definitely too easy with any kind of pressing tactic, and too hard if you try and win without a pressing tactic.

With the lowest budget in Colombia I'm top of the top division after two seasons (promoted in the first). I'm barely being attacked by teams who are paying players literally 10x as much as my best players.

And I am not a genius FM player, and I'm not using a downloaded tactic or using lists of wonderkids. I'm mostly signing free agents.

[Icy]

After getting bored with my Crewe Alexandra save as I had unrealistic success. I'm currently 4th in the Premier in January after being promoted twice in 6 years (this is ok), finished second in the FA cup when in the championship (not realistic), with 50M in the bank, lowest payroll in the league, new stadium and tons of promising international u23 players. So I'm going to start a new save again with a lower team and Sunday league rep and I'm trying to set some house rules to avoid having a big advantage vs the AI.

Starting with low reputation and no badges is only a problem the first season, once you gain the respect of your players, it's not a handicap anymore.

Here are the things were I think I beat the AI in that Crewe save and my potential house rules to avoid it:

- Hiring the best staff in every level I was at, including the premier in my first season:

I'll just hire myself a top DOF and Assistant managers and then I'm going to delegate staff hiring and renewals to them. Might even just hire the AM myself as that is more realistic, to have my partner to come with me to every team I go to, but leave the board to appoint a DOF that I might not like.

- Using the press to manipulate my own players and my rivals:

I'll delegate press interaction to my AM as anyway I'm so bored of it already after 6 seasons seeing the same messages and it's easy to know what to answer after some time without even reading the questions.

- Praising my players training performances, as doing it soon I become their favourite people and they never complain to me and have high morale.

I won't do it anymore as it's really gamey.

- Hiring tons u21 young players at their end of the contract or free agents to grow them or loan them out.

Can't do much more here as anyway I only signed players found by my scouts, never used the search page. Maybe have new signings initiated by DOF or to limit myself to X signings per year?

- Hiring players or renew them for cheap salaries

Delegate players signing negotiations and renewals to my DOF, I'll just have the final word to cancel it in case he screws up.

- Adding always sell of fee % to my players when selling them so I get extra profit when they are sold again.

Maybe just have the DOF handle players sales negotiations? 

 - Selling all players before they reach their 30s and decline so I had the youngest team always.

I won't sell players that are fan favourites or players that have been for many years in the team, as the penalty for doing so is not big enough and unrealistic.

- Setting up attacking corners to short post, with a good jumping DF (18+) you can score more than 10 goals per season.

I'll just set corners pass direction to mixed.

I could add here not using tactics with mentality higher than Positive or Defensive line over High or pressing over High, but with Crewe I didn't and my main tactic was a fluid counter tactic as the media named it (4-2-4, Narrow width, Positive mentality, Standard LOE, High LOD, split block with standard pressing and high pressing for the 4 up top, mixed passing). I could really handicap myself using only a defending deep tactic but... that is unrealistic and boring specially when you climb the ranks and teams start to play defensive as well, most games will end 0-0.

Any other suggestion? 

[Mars_Blackmon]

^^^ I think it’ll be more beneficial if interactions (both press and talks) had more randomness (based on personalities of course) in it. Knowing the “correct” answer takes away from the feature.

[Platinum]

3 hours ago, Icy said:

After getting bored with my Crewe Alexandra save as I had unrealistic success. I'm currently 4th in the Premier in January after being promoted twice in 6 years (this is ok), finished second in the FA cup when in the championship (not realistic), with 50M in the bank, lowest payroll in the league, new stadium and tons of promising international u23 players. So I'm going to start a new save again with a lower team and Sunday league rep and I'm trying to set some house rules to avoid having a big advantage vs the AI.

Starting with low reputation and no badges is only a problem the first season, once you gain the respect of your players, it's not a handicap anymore.

Here are the things were I think I beat the AI in that Crewe save and my potential house rules to avoid it:

- Hiring the best staff in every level I was at, including the premier in my first season:

I'll just hire myself a top DOF and Assistant managers and then I'm going to delegate staff hiring and renewals to them. Might even just hire the AM myself as that is more realistic, to have my partner to come with me to every team I go to, but leave the board to appoint a DOF that I might not like.

- Using the press to manipulate my own players and my rivals:

I'll delegate press interaction to my AM as anyway I'm so bored of it already after 6 seasons seeing the same messages and it's easy to know what to answer after some time without even reading the questions.

- Praising my players training performances, as doing it soon I become their favourite people and they never complain to me and have high morale.

I won't do it anymore as it's really gamey.

- Hiring tons u21 young players at their end of the contract or free agents to grow them or loan them out.

Can't do much more here as anyway I only signed players found by my scouts, never used the search page. Maybe have new signings initiated by DOF or to limit myself to X signings per year?

- Hiring players or renew them for cheap salaries

Delegate players signing negotiations and renewals to my DOF, I'll just have the final word to cancel it in case he screws up.

- Adding always sell of fee % to my players when selling them so I get extra profit when they are sold again.

Maybe just have the DOF handle players sales negotiations? 

 - Selling all players before they reach their 30s and decline so I had the youngest team always.

I won't sell players that are fan favourites or players that have been for many years in the team, as the penalty for doing so is not big enough and unrealistic.

- Setting up attacking corners to short post, with a good jumping DF (18+) you can score more than 10 goals per season.

I'll just set corners pass direction to mixed.

I could add here not using tactics with mentality higher than Positive or Defensive line over High or pressing over High, but with Crewe I didn't and my main tactic was a fluid counter tactic as the media named it (4-2-4, Narrow width, Positive mentality, Standard LOE, High LOD, split block with standard pressing and high pressing for the 4 up top, mixed passing). I could really handicap myself using only a defending deep tactic but... that is unrealistic and boring specially when you climb the ranks and teams start to play defensive as well, most games will end 0-0.

Any other suggestion? 

Leave all signing of players and staff to your board and other staff members. That creates a big difference.

The human player is much better at team and staff building than the AI and is a main thing that IMO makes the game much easier. Putting this over to your DoF (which is realistic) gets rid of that advantage

A human manager can buy all the best young players and established players after negotiating with them for 5 mins which is extremely unrealistic. Giving this over to the staff means they target and are successfull in buying players at a more realistic rate. On top of that modern managers rarely negotiate contracts and transfer fees with players and staff. 

The only people I would say you should choose on are your assistant manager and possibly 1st team coaching staff. Also put the board in charge of extending contracts and finding DoF and Technical directors. This way you cant magically find and hire the best DoF through magically knowing his attributes. 

The DoF and chief scout should be in charge of scouting but it's acceptable for you to suggest a type of player to focus on.

With buying players I think its acceptable to give your DoF players to try to sign but these should only be players you have scouted or had your DoF recommend. I also think its acceptable to ask your DoF to scout a player but this should be rare.  Leave the DoF and chief scouts to mainly take care of that.

Edited April 14, 2021 by francis#17

[Zemahh]

10 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

Leave all signing of players and staff to your board and other staff members.

For me personally, that would kill the fun really quick. Scouting and finding players is what I enjoy the most in FM, playing actual matches comes second. And yes, I do agree that's by far the biggest difference maker.

Anyway, I don't think the only way for experienced players to face any kind of challenge should be to pretty much just watch the game play itself, as they leave control of most aspects to staff. The question here should be why does the game make it so easy to identify and sign good players. Isn't that what we're supposed to do? Why the Player Search screen, then? Why such accurate Scout Reports? Why doesn't board intervene more often? Why can I invite 30 players on trial and pretty much know whether they're any good or not that same day, if that's something AI can't do?

Same goes for tactics, why can't the game identify and adapt to at least some of the most extreme tactical choices, such as very high defensive line or maxed out pressing, so that it could combat those more effectively and not get completely stomped each and every time? Why can't it say, "hmm, user is leaving himself exposed at the back, let me try hitting him on the break", rather than just stubbornly sticking to whatever approach it chose before the game?

I understand the game is already difficult enough for some players, but that's what difficulty settings or just some extra boxes to tick when starting a new save could be for. Just starting without coaching badges or experience clearly doesn't make enough difference. "Just don't do this or that bro" seems like an easy way out, it's not like using the tools the game itself gives you is cheating.

[Platinum]

1 hour ago, Zemahh said:

For me personally, that would kill the fun really quick. Scouting and finding players is what I enjoy the most in FM, playing actual matches comes second. And yes, I do agree that's by far the biggest difference maker.

Anyway, I don't think the only way for experienced players to face any kind of challenge should be to pretty much just watch the game play itself, as they leave control of most aspects to staff. The question here should be why does the game make it so easy to identify and sign good players. Isn't that what we're supposed to do? Why the Player Search screen, then? Why such accurate Scout Reports? Why doesn't board intervene more often? Why can I invite 30 players on trial and pretty much know whether they're any good or not that same day, if that's something AI can't do?

Same goes for tactics, why can't the game identify and adapt to at least some of the most extreme tactical choices, such as very high defensive line or maxed out pressing, so that it could combat those more effectively and not get completely stomped each and every time? Why can't it say, "hmm, user is leaving himself exposed at the back, let me try hitting him on the break", rather than just stubbornly sticking to whatever approach it chose before the game?

I understand the game is already difficult enough for some players, but that's what difficulty settings or just some extra boxes to tick when starting a new save could be for. Just starting without coaching badges or experience clearly doesn't make enough difference. "Just don't do this or that bro" seems like an easy way out, it's not like using the tools the game itself gives you is cheating.

I agree that the game should be difficult without doing those things. 

For me I dont mind as I like having them in charge of that and I mainly focus on coaching the team like most modern managers now. But there isnt a right or wrong way to play the game.

Btw out of interest do you find setting scouting regins etc fun or is looking through the players you have already scouted?

[Zemahh]

8 hours ago, francis#17 said:

Btw out of interest do you find setting scouting regins etc fun or is looking through the players you have already scouted?

Looking through assignments, or scrolling through different clubs or national teams to find players my Scouts might have not spotted yet.

[Viking]

Still baffled people thinks FM is easy. I managed to win the first 6 games of the season with Groningen. Only successful start I've had with a FM save in many, many years. Then out of the blue I start to lose (or tie) games I clearly should win and can't recover. I find FM nothing but unplayable nowadays. I used to love it. I want to love it. But it's just not fun. Only stress and drama. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Viking

[Sharkn20]

16 hours ago, Viking said:

Still baffled people thinks FM is easy. I managed to win the first 6 games of the season with Groningen. Only successful start I've had with a FM save in many, many years. Then out of the blue I start to lose (or tie) games I clearly should win and can't recover. I find FM nothing but unplayable nowadays. I used to love it. I want to love it. But it's just not fun. Only stress and drama. 

Tactics.

[Brother Ben]

On 24/04/2021 at 04:26, Viking said:

Still baffled people thinks FM is easy. I managed to win the first 6 games of the season with Groningen. Only successful start I've had with a FM save in many, many years. Then out of the blue I start to lose (or tie) games I clearly should win and can't recover. I find FM nothing but unplayable nowadays. I used to love it. I want to love it. But it's just not fun. Only stress and drama. 

Couple of questions if that's cool

Would you continue to buy it if it was made harder as people on this thread have suggested?

If there was a difficulty mode (Easy, Medium, Hard.  For example) what mode would you pick? 

[GreenTriangle]

There ARE a lot of "difficulty modes" already. But a lot of people use to play on easy mode and they wonders why it's so easy.

[Viking]

5 hours ago, Brother Ben said:

Couple of questions if that's cool

Would you continue to buy it if it was made harder as people on this thread have suggested?

If there was a difficulty mode (Easy, Medium, Hard.  For example) what mode would you pick? 

Interesting questions. First one: I would probably buy it even if it gets even harder. I have bought it for 25 odd years and it has been too hard for me the last five-six-ten years anyways. I mostly do it to support SI after all the fun I've had with the game over the years. Well, that and a naive hope that I one day will understand this sorcery you people call "tactics".

Second question: Hard to answer, really. That depends what the modes represent to me. I mean, this game is apparently very easy right now, and still it's football management on nightmare mode for me. I am usually one under par with the board expectations, so to speak, when I play a "successful" save, IE, If the board expect me to finish in the top, I end up in the (lower) middle of the table. If the board expect a mid table finish, I am at the very bottom when the curtain falls. If there was a mode that made it possible for me to stay on par, I'd pick it.

I also understand that I am not the mainstream player (I think); I want the game to be relaxing and causal, but I don't want the watered down experience. I want the stats, the interactions, the editor. I'm just not smart or interested enough to want to spend valuable time on learning tactics. I think a "Director of football" mode would be perfect for me. I hire the manager and buy the players, then the manager can sort things out on the pitch while I eat tacos and watch YouTube.