Playing On The Edge: Dominating Possession with only one CB

[Barf_Vader]

Hello people. Don't post much on here ( but read a lot of threads though), but this thread has piqued my interest. Currently integrating my interpretation of this formation in my FM20 save with PSV. Use 3-4-3 along with a slightly more conservative 4-3-3 for difficult games (pretty much the same TI's, but with a couple of differing player roles - mainly moving the CBd up to AMa). Currently into November with 1 defeat and have managed to win at home to Barca and H&A v Dortmund in the CL.

I had a fantastic 3-4-3 tactic way back on FM12. Used it to take  Crewe up the leagues and into Europe winning a few cups along the way. That was based on LVG's Ajax rather than Cruyff/Barca. Much more rigid as I remember. 

Anyway, if anyone is interested, Jordi Cruyff has done a little piece on Youtube about the tactics his father employed in his time there.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZq_spUaYc0&ab_channel=TheCoaches%27Voice

[crusadertsar]

On 03/03/2021 at 08:52, Barf_Vader said:

Hello people. Don't post much on here ( but read a lot of threads though), but this thread has piqued my interest. Currently integrating my interpretation of this formation in my FM20 save with PSV. Use 3-4-3 along with a slightly more conservative 4-3-3 for difficult games (pretty much the same TI's, but with a couple of differing player roles - mainly moving the CBd up to AMa). Currently into November with 1 defeat and have managed to win at home to Barca and H&A v Dortmund in the CL.

I had a fantastic 3-4-3 tactic way back on FM12. Used it to take  Crewe up the leagues and into Europe winning a few cups along the way. That was based on LVG's Ajax rather than Cruyff/Barca. Much more rigid as I remember. 

Anyway, if anyone is interested, Jordi Cruyff has done a little piece on Youtube about the tactics his father employed in his time there.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZq_spUaYc0&ab_channel=TheCoaches'Voice

Thanks for sharing and for the interesting link 

[ElJefe4]

I'm back on FM18 at the moment so this might not be of interest to many, but I had a spare half hour tonight so decided to see what would happen if I tested it out with my AC Milan side.

We played a good Fiorentina side (5th) away from home after training the tactic for a couple of days. Fiorentina were set up in a well balanced 4231.

The result was one of the most enjoyable, attack minded FM games I've watched in a long time.

Due to the changes in the tactics creator I couldn't copy it exactly, but thought this was pretty close.

I changed shorter passing to mixed in game as some gaps were starting to appear and I wanted to give players a bit more license to pass over greater distances. To balance this out I lowered the tempo so we kept the control to our passing.

PIs were 'Move Into Channels' for the 2 central midfield players to prevent the wingers from becoming isolated.

 

Disclaimer: Fiorentina should definitely have scored more than 1 from open play. 

Individual ratings very impressive, Suso in particular loved his Shadow Striker role.

I haven't actually compared the following stat with other matches, but 23 key passes seems good? There were certainly options all over the place going forward.

Final screenshot I promise, to show that the average positions in possession were about as close to a Cruyff 343 diamond as I've seen, particularly with the defenders. I've often found it really difficult to play a 343 diamond with 3 flat CBs, even the middle CB on cover and the 2 wider CBs on defend or stopper hasn't allowed them to actually create a diamond shape with the holding midfield player in the way that this set up did.

 

Overall, very enjoyable. Can definitely see a few high scoring games and I'm under no illusions that I may suffer a couple of heavy defeats. I think there's tweaks that'll need to be made to compensate for the differences in match engines, but certainly something I'm going to consider going forward. Great work mate! 

Edited March 10, 2021 by ElJefe4

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, ElJefe4 said:

I'm back on FM18 at the moment so this might not be of interest to many, but I had a spare half hour tonight so decided to see what would happen if I tested it out with my AC Milan side.

We played a good Fiorentina side (5th) away from home after training the tactic for a couple of days. Fiorentina were set up in a well balanced 4231.

The result was one of the most enjoyable, attack minded FM games I've watched in a long time.

Due to the changes in the tactics creator I couldn't copy it exactly, but thought this was pretty close.

I changed shorter passing to mixed in game as some gaps were starting to appear and I wanted to give players a bit more license to pass over greater distances. To balance this out I lowered the tempo so we kept the control to our passing.

PIs were 'Move Into Channels' for the 2 central midfield players to prevent the wingers from becoming isolated.

 

Disclaimer: Fiorentina should definitely have scored more than 1 from open play. 

Individual ratings very impressive, Suso in particular loved his Shadow Striker role.

I haven't actually compared the following stat with other matches, but 23 key passes seems good? There were certainly options all over the place going forward.

Final screenshot I promise, to show that the average positions in possession were about as close to a Cruyff 343 diamond as I've seen, particularly with the defenders. I've often found it really difficult to play a 343 diamond with 3 flat CBs, even the middle CB on cover and the 2 wider CBs on defend or stopper hasn't allowed them to actually create a diamond shape with the holding midfield player in the way that this set up did.

 

Overall, very enjoyable. Can definitely see a few high scoring games and I'm under no illusions that I may suffer a couple of heavy defeats. I think there's tweaks that'll need to be made to compensate for the differences in match engines, but certainly something I'm going to consider going forward. Great work mate! 

Thanks! I'm excited to see this tactic working so well in an older version of the game. Would be curious to see how you do long-term if you continue using it. 

[Dutchy1983]

@crusadertsar  I stumbled across your thread and became intrigued! I was enjoying a current save with West Ham in season 2. I didn't want to mess with my current set up so I added a random manager, picked Barnsley who were sitting 17th and predicted 19th in the Championship. Had 5 days of match prep, played an away game against Wednesday who were in 9th, 2-0 win first up. Was crazy to watch extended highlights. Second match was a home game with 16th v 17th and gee I was impressed! And the Barnsley side is pretty terrible to be fair. as you will see by one of my player of the matches attributes. 

Can't wait to try it with my quality hammers squad! I have a number of around the mark 'Total footballers' Mady Camara I recognised straight away!! I already have him trained up and dominating as a RWB!

Think the base of the tactic I went with was around your second variant in your thread

I've only ever tried the Dutch masters theory with three central defenders with varying forms of success. Can't wait to start tinkering!

 

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Dutchy1983

[FranAlv]

Hello friends!

Does anyone have the link to download this tactic?

I am a fan of Cruyff's style and I am very interested in trying it

I thank you !!!

 

PD: Sorry for my bad english

[crusadertsar]

20 hours ago, FranAlv said:

Hello friends!

Does anyone have the link to download this tactic?

I am a fan of Cruyff's style and I am very interested in trying it

I thank you !!!

 

PD: Sorry for my bad english

Hi,  always nice to see another Cruyff fan on the forums. Here is the download link to my tactic as I was using it last

 

Cruyff 3-4-3.fmf

[FranAlv]

Thanks man

Here I attach the first 6 months with the tactic with my Tottenham.
I have miraculously come from being champion of the Champions, playing quite irregular football.

I also attach some match statistics.

As can be seen, despite the fact that the tactic does not show a good regularity since it shows good results and other bad ones, 
interspersed with other very good or very bad ones, 
in most of the matches some of the basic principles of the game of bowling seem to be respected. 
Cruyff as the famous diamond, a short passing game with possession although he expected much higher possession.

I have been trying to play as Cruyff since FM17 without any success with my own and other's tactics, 
since most of them achieved ball possession but incredibly disastrous results. This tactic seems to be quite acceptable.

Edited April 5, 2021 by FranAlv

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, FranAlv said:

Thanks man

Here I attach the first 6 months with the tactic with my Tottenham.
I have miraculously come from being champion of the Champions, playing quite irregular football.

I also attach some match statistics.

As can be seen, despite the fact that the tactic does not show a good regularity since it shows good results and other bad ones, 
interspersed with other very good or very bad ones, 
in most of the matches some of the basic principles of the game of bowling seem to be respected. 
Cruyff as the famous diamond, a short passing game with possession although he expected much higher possession.

I have been trying to play as Cruyff since FM17 without any success with my own and other's tactics, 
since most of them achieved ball possession but incredibly disastrous results. This tactic seems to be quite acceptable.

Not bad results. Considering that it was never really meant to be a plug-and-play tactic. As you probably saw in the rest of this thread, you will need a specific type of player in almost all positions for it to work. Total Footballers in all roles

[FranAlv]

18 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Not bad results. Considering that it was never really meant to be a plug-and-play tactic. As you probably saw in the rest of this thread, you will need a specific type of player in almost all positions for it to work. Total Footballers in all roles

The tactic in the offensive phase is extraordinary. It's super offensive and I love that.

He would have to improve the issue of possession a bit.

On the other hand, what attributes do players need for this tactic?

I'm going to test it with another team by signing the necessary players

PS: Sorry for my bad English, I use the google translator haha

[crusadertsar]

9 minutes ago, FranAlv said:

The tactic in the offensive phase is extraordinary. It's super offensive and I love that.

He would have to improve the issue of possession a bit.

On the other hand, what attributes do players need for this tactic?

I'm going to test it with another team by signing the necessary players

PS: Sorry for my bad English, I use the google translator haha

Basically they need everything. It's easier to show with an image from my original post. But think players like this for all positions (obviously in your attacking positions more acceleration and pace will help).

In this image can you even tell if he is attacker, midfielder or defender? No, he is a Total Footballer.

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by crusadertsar

[FranAlv]

Thank you, man!

Is a good tactic, really.

I will continue testing it with different teams and more suitable players and I will tell you

I love Cruyff and his style of play too much. I'm super fan of total football.

We are in touch!

 

[crusadertsar]

Expect a revamp of this thread for FM22 soon. Given the announcement of the new Wide Centreback role, 3-4-3 diamond will probably be my only go to tactic for FM22. Still have to decide on the club though Ajax should already have an interesting squad to recreate Total Football. Or should give a less predictable club a chance?

[3LionsFM]

19 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Expect a revamp of this thread for FM22 soon. Given the announcement of the new Wide Centreback role, 3-4-3 diamond will probably be my only go to tactic for FM22. Still have to decide on the club though Ajax should already have an interesting squad to recreate Total Football. Or should give a less predictable club a chance?

Do you think that defensive stability will be improved with the new WCB role in FM22? In recent FM versions I have tested the 343 diamond on we were very vulnerable down the flanks and on counters.

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, 3LionsFM said:

Do you think that defensive stability will be improved with the new WCB role in FM22? In recent FM versions I have tested the 343 diamond on we were very vulnerable down the flanks and on counters.

Surely hope so. Although can't know how this role will behave until the beta is out. I'm hoping that it take a nice middle ground between a centreback and fullback. A real hybrid role.

[EnigMattic1]

2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Expect a revamp of this thread for FM22 soon. Given the announcement of the new Wide Centreback role, 3-4-3 diamond will probably be my only go to tactic for FM22. Still have to decide on the club though Ajax should already have an interesting squad to recreate Total Football. Or should give a less predictable club a chance?

Take a club with no history as such. A club with no real identity and make them a force. 

[Number seven]

2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Expect a revamp of this thread for FM22 soon. Given the announcement of the new Wide Centreback role, 3-4-3 diamond will probably be my only go to tactic for FM22. Still have to decide on the club though Ajax should already have an interesting squad to recreate Total Football. Or should give a less predictable club a chance?

Olympique Marseille have a squad that this formation could be fun to try out.

[crusadertsar]

Good save suggestions! Keep them coming guys 

Edited October 7, 2021 by crusadertsar

[HurkaDurk69]

The "obvious" ones: Newcastle, Barcelona

Ones I would like to see(not counting my soon to be divison level 3 team lol): Burnley, Atletico Madrid, Atalanta, Inter, Rennes, Leverkusen, AZ Alkmaar, Groningen(definitely not because they have a lot of swedes haha)

[crusadertsar]

On 09/10/2021 at 13:39, HurkaDurk69 said:

The "obvious" ones: Newcastle, Barcelona

Ones I would like to see(not counting my soon to be divison level 3 team lol): Burnley, Atletico Madrid, Atalanta, Inter, Rennes, Leverkusen, AZ Alkmaar, Groningen(definitely not because they have a lot of swedes haha)

All good suggestions! But I think i narrowed it down to three candidates. At least for beta. And if I really like the save then maybe will continue into the full release as well. Can't really decide between the three.

Porto, Ajax (obvious reasons) and Spartak Moscow. All three have the things that I love in my FM clubs. 1) Very good youth intake and facilities to develop homegrown talent. 2) Squads that are somewhat suitable to my tactic from the start (although Spartak might need a bit more development, recruitment) ... AND most importantly 3) B team in a lower league to give my youngsters more experience. Since I don't like loaning them out and don't believe they develop as well unless playing real minutes in a dedicated B team in a competitive league.

Edited October 10, 2021 by crusadertsar

[SixPointer]

Finally the 343 diamond should truly prosper. Along with GPG’s overlapping 3412. The holy grail’s have been unlocked let’s hope SI have them working well. Going by the videos it’s seems as if they took their time making sure they had it right. Don’t think I’ve been this excited for a new edition of the game for a long time. Between the WCB and the new data hub including pass maps etc 

[expiredyogurt]

Has anyone else tried the new wide center-backs in the beta? I'm only 3 games in but they seem exactly what this tactic needed, still early tho.

[3LionsFM]

2 minutes ago, expiredyogurt said:

Has anyone else tried the new wide center-backs in the beta? I'm only 3 games in but they seem exactly what this tactic needed, still early tho.

Not yet. At work but can't wait to get home and try this system out again! 

[crusadertsar]

Trying it out with Porto  Five games in. Will have some nice things to report on them over the weekend. 

[expiredyogurt]

Nice, any initial thoughts on the WCB? It seems to work really well for me for now, I just need a quicker right WCB, he sometimes gets caught out, other than that it's incredibly solid defensively. 

[3LionsFM]

2 hours ago, expiredyogurt said:

Nice, any initial thoughts on the WCB? It seems to work really well for me for now, I just need a quicker right WCB, he sometimes gets caught out, other than that it's incredibly solid defensively. 

What duty are you using? 

[expiredyogurt]

WCB/d) - CD (c) - WCB (d)

 

And one of my WCB has bring ball out of defence and long passing and switch ball to flanks, not sure about those ppms

[crusadertsar]

5 hours ago, expiredyogurt said:

WCB/d) - CD (c) - WCB (d)

 

And one of my WCB has bring ball out of defence and long passing and switch ball to flanks, not sure about those ppms

I would limit the longpassing PPMs. I rather have all three of my CBs with bring out of defence trait. But limit the amount of those Hollywood passes to the attackers. Although sometimes it's pays off to have one defender with longpass ability. Especially for the occasional highlight reel counter goal. But build up from the back is my goal with Total Football.

[expiredyogurt]

4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I would limit the longpassing PPMs. I rather have all three of my CBs with bring out of defence trait. But limit the amount of those Hollywood passes to the attackers. Although sometimes it's pays off to have one defender with longpass ability. Especially for the occasional highlight reel counter goal. But build up from the back is my goal with Total Football.

Yeah, my next transfer targets in the jan window are better ball playing defenders/WCB. My backline at the moments is okay in possession but inconsistent but I'm seeing glimpses of real nice ball progression and possession in my half. And if I can get real solid backline, I want to try one of the wide center-backs on support or possibly attack. 

 

And maybe that would work if, let's say my right WCB is on support or attack, then either my right winger/IW or right center midfielder drops deep, creating an overload on the right. So many possibilities  

Edited October 23, 2021 by expiredyogurt

[crusadertsar]

WCB(S) flanking a Libero(S) are working very well for me. All on "Positive" individual mentality! BUT you need a really good technical team for such defending. Defending on the Edge!