How to best set up a counter attacking strategy using a 4-4-2 formation?

[CEVR1996]

I decided to start a save with Wycombe Wanderes, one of the main underdogs in the Championship this season so I figured that adopting a counter attacking approach would be the most sensible route to follow since I´m expecting my opposition to come at me in full force in the vast majoirty of fixures across the season. That said, I´m not exactly sure what team and individual instructions to select in order to create a defensively sound system which can withstand relentless pressure throughout 90 minutes without crumbling like a house of cards and have me getting battered on a regular basis.

I´ve noticed that in this game, inviting the opposition into your own half by sitting back and not pressing the ball carrier is a risky business because sooner or later, they´ll find an opening from which to shoot towards goal or pick out an incisive pass to a teammate as there certainly won´t be a shortage of time to create goal scoring chances when the other team basically has nearly all of the possession in more advanced areas of the pitch. This is my current tactical setup, I was told that sticking to an attacking mentality will help with triggering counter attacks at every possible oportunity, increasing the odds of catching the opposiiton off guard but my main concern is defense related due to the aforementioned circumstances.

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, CEVR1996 said:

I´m not exactly sure what team and individual instructions to select in order to create a defensively sound system which can withstand relentless pressure throughout 90 minutes without crumbling like a house of cards and have me getting battered on a regular basis

It is the setup of roles and duties - not instructions - that primarily defines both your style of play and the overall quality and soundness of your tactic. Instructions, including the mentality, come later. They need to be in harmony with your setup of roles and duties as well as between themselves in order to avoid any tactical contradictions. But a balanced and logical setup of roles and duties should be your first priority when creating a tactic.

Unfortunately, I am not much of an optimist when it comes to your current tactic, but at the same time I don't want to discourage you from the very beginning. So let's wait and see.

NOTE: If you want to play any kind of defensive football - either counter-attacking or more passive - you need to make sure that both your defenders and midfielders (particularly central ones) are defensively reliable players. Because otherwise you are unlikely to withstand the pressure from opposition for an extended period of time (especially when playing against really strong teams).

[Zemahh]

2 hours ago, CEVR1996 said:

This is my current tactical setup, I was told that sticking to an attacking mentality will help with triggering counter attacks at every possible oportunity, increasing the odds of catching the opposiiton off guard but my main concern is defense related due to the aforementioned circumstances.

There's different ways of achieving counter-attacking football. When it comes to Mentality, I see two options:

A) Low-risk approach (low-risk Mentality)

Players tolerance for risk-taking will be low. While attacking transitions can be modified with Instructions such as More Direct Passing or Higher Tempo, players will still remain relatively risk-averse. They may look for direct passes or make decisions quicker with said Instructions, but decisions they make will generally be the ones they deem to be low-risk.

Automatically triggered counter-attacks will still happen. Those trigger when certain conditions under the hood are met and when they do, player's Mentalities, Tempo and Passing Directness are maxed out regardless of your setup. There may be games when there's plenty and games when there's none, depending on the opposition.

B) High-risk approach (high-risk Mentality)

Players tolerance for risk-taking will be high. They may battle for possession aggressively and look for positive passes the moment they win the ball back. Because their risk-taking threshold is high, they will consider more options than they would otherwise.

The goal of this approach is to sort of replicate the automatically triggered counters. You're not relying solely on opposition pushing enough men forward for them to be triggered under the hood, instead you're asking your team to be forward-minded from the get-go. A high risk, high reward type of approach.

For me, it comes down to what kind of risk I'm willing to take. I'm either risking not creating many chances, since you can obviously only create so much without taking any risks, or risking chances being created against me, since players may be more willing to press, mark tighter or lunge into tackles on higher Mentalities.

I also like to quote @THOG's Mentality tables, from his Lines and Diamonds guide. They may help you visualize different Mentalities and help you see why some people prefer high-risk Mentalities for counter-attacking tactics:

As for your tactic, I don't see many glaring issues. I'd move the Roles around a little though and change one WBde to a Role that provides more width behind the IW:

PFat TMsu

IWsu CMde BBMsu Wat

FBat NCBde BPDde WBde

For a side like Wycombe, I'd maybe also lower the Mentality down to Positive and aim for a mid block (Higher Defensive Line, Standard Line Of Engagement), since the pressure that comes with low blocks may be too much for the quality of your squad. Keep in mind that 4-4-2's defensive positioning is already quite low naturally.

Also, I don't use a TM often, since I find he can make your play quite one-dimensional (ball magnet players will look for with direct balls often), but I know Rashidi had a very successful counter-attacking system with one in his Hannover save:

Maybe it helps you find some inspiration.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Zemahh

[CEVR1996]

2 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

It is the setup of roles and duties - not instructions - that primarily defines both your style of play and the overall quality and soundness of your tactic. Instructions, including the mentality, come later. They need to be in harmony with your setup of roles and duties as well as between themselves in order to avoid any tactical contradictions. But a balanced and logical setup of roles and duties should be your first priority when creating a tactic.

Unfortunately, I am not much of an optimist when it comes to your current tactic, but at the same time I don't want to discourage you from the very beginning. So let's wait and see.

NOTE: If you want to play any kind of defensive football - either counter-attacking or more passive - you need to make sure that both your defenders and midfielders (particularly central ones) are defensively reliable players. Because otherwise you are unlikely to withstand the pressure from opposition for an extended period of time (especially when playing against really strong teams).

In all honesty, I only took the liberty to define the roles and duties of the players myself within the formation so I would have something to show here, because I´m also quite unsure about those. I really don´t know what combinations work best to produce a functional and sensible tactic, hence why so far, it´s been none other than a process of pure intuition and blind faith when it comes to allocating specific roles, duties and general instructions to my team. This has in some cases led to great results yet it´s definitely not the greatest of situations to be in a position where you can´t make sense of why you´re winning, no matter how well things are going.

 

Also, defensively reliable ins´t necessarily the term I would use to describe any of my players, something along the lines of "defensively permeable" would seem more fitting but still, a guy can hope and I sure need to because there´s no way I can get better players at the moment. You know, it does serve as a small piece of consolation in the face of a defeat to think that due to the inherent lack of quality from the players you have at your disposal, winning said game would have been an overachievement as opposed to losing being an underachievement.

Edited April 9, 2021 by CEVR1996

[CEVR1996]

1 hora atrás, Zemahh disse:

There's different ways of achieving counter-attacking football. When it comes to Mentality, I see two options:

A) Low-risk approach (low-risk Mentality)

Players tolerance for risk-taking will be low. While attacking transitions can be modified with Instructions such as More Direct Passing or Higher Tempo, players will still remain relatively risk-averse. They may look for direct passes or make decisions quicker with said Instructions, but decisions they make will generally be the ones they deem to be low-risk.

Automatically triggered counter-attacks will still happen. Those trigger when certain conditions under the hood are met and when they do, player's Mentalities, Tempo and Passing Directness are maxed out regardless of your setup. There may be games when there's plenty and games when there's none, depending on the opposition.

B) High-risk approach (high-risk Mentality)

Players tolerance for risk-taking will be high. They may battle for possession aggressively and look for positive passes the moment they win the ball back. Because their risk-taking threshold is high, they will consider more options than they would otherwise.

The goal of this approach is to sort of replicate the automatically triggered counters. You're not relying solely on opposition pushing enough men forward for them to be triggered under the hood, instead you're asking your team to be forward-minded from the get-go. A high risk, high reward type of approach.

For me, it comes down to what kind of risk I'm willing to take. I'm either risking not creating many chances, since you can obviously only create so much without taking any risks, or risking chances being created against me, since players may be more willing to press, mark tighter or lunge into tackles on higher Mentalities.

I also like to quote @THOG's Mentality tables, from his Lines and Diamonds guide. They may help you visualize different Mentalities and help you see why some people prefer high-risk Mentalities for counter-attacking tactics:

As for your tactic, I don't see many glaring issues. I'd move the Roles around a little though and change one WBde to a Role that provides more width behind the IW:

PFat TMsu

IWsu CMde BBMsu Wat

FBat NCBde BPDde WBde

For a side like Wycombe, I'd maybe also lower the Mentality down to Positive and aim for a mid block (Higher Defensive Line, Standard Line Of Engagement), since the pressure that comes with low blocks may be too much for the quality of your squad. Keep in mind that 4-4-2's defensive positioning is already quite low naturally.

Also, I don't use a TM often, since I find he can make your play quite one-dimensional (ball magnet players will look for with direct balls often), but I know Rashidi had a very successful counter-attacking system with one in his Hannover save:

Maybe it helps you find some inspiration.

It did help a whole lot, thank you. The reason I went with a AF TM combo is because I have two very strong fowards with great heading ability in Ikpeazu and Akinfenwa, the later not being particularly tall but nonetheless, has all the remaining traits of a natural target man. On the other hand, I also have 3 quick strikers who seem perfectly capable of making the most out of any second balls that bounce off the TM into the space behind the opposition´s defense, something I see happening with moderate frequency on the match engine. It all seems to make sense to me on paper at least.

The overall tecnhincal ability of this team is abysmal so I can´t expect them to do anything fancy with the ball at their feet but I´m sure they can hoof it long across the pitch for someone to run at.

[Zemahh]

8 hours ago, CEVR1996 said:

The overall tecnhincal ability of this team is abysmal so I can´t expect them to do anything fancy with the ball at their feet but I´m sure they can hoof it long across the pitch for someone to run at.

If you find you're having issues with the above setup, you could also try something like this:

AFat TMat

WMsu CMde BBMsu Ws

FBsu NCBde BPDde FBsu

This would be a less aggressive version, maybe better suited to bottom of the barrel teams. One winger is replaced by a Wide Midfielder, who's not hard-coded to dribble at all times, so it should help with ball retention and being more patient when the counter isn't on. Full Backs are a safer choice, if you lack players capable of driving down the flanks aggressively, as well as being defensively solid. Here, you're mostly counting on the two strikers to do things on their own.

In a setup like this, I'd also make sure my set pieces are immaculate. When you're grinding out draws and 1-0s, goals scored from free kicks and corners can make a huge difference.

[CEVR1996]

1 hora atrás, Zemahh disse:

If you find you're having issues with the above setup, you could also try something like this:

AFat TMat

WMsu CMde BBMsu Ws

FBsu NCBde BPDde FBsu

This would be a less aggressive version, maybe better suited to bottom of the barrel teams. One winger is replaced by a Wide Midfielder, who's not hard-coded to dribble at all times, so it should help with ball retention and being more patient when the counter isn't on. Full Backs are a safer choice, if you lack players capable of driving down the flanks aggressively, as well as being defensively solid. Here, you're mostly counting on the two strikers to do things on their own.

In a setup like this, I'd also make sure my set pieces are immaculate. When you're grinding out draws and 1-0s, goals scored from free kicks and corners can make a huge difference.

I´m certainly having some issues here, the defense is dreadful, they look like a bunch of training pins who do nothing but watch the opposition run past them with utmost ease and I´m not even talking about great opposition for starters. Defensive set pieces are also a complete disaster, my players can´t seem to win any headers...I really wasn´t expecting things to be this bad. Honestly, I have serious doubts concerning the possibility of making this team somewhat solid at the back.

Also, I had to ditch the BPD because none of my CB´s is a competent passer and they basically keep wasting possession with terrible passes to no man´s land. In the attack, the situation is not as dire but there´s still a lack of objectivity and good off the ball movement for the most part.

[CEVR1996]

Well colour me surprised, I wasn´t at all expecting the first league game of the season to go like this. The counter attacking approach worked wonders despite my defense still looking a little dodgy at times. I´ve even benefited from a ghost goal which elevated me from surprised to utterly baffled. When my team scored the 5th goal, the number 5 only stood for a brief moment in the scoreboard and then suddently went up to 6 out of nowhere whilst the replay was still playing, scored by the guy who had assisted that previous goal, absolutely bonkers. I´ll have to rewatch the match highlights to catch that misterious Obita goal.

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by CEVR1996

[CEVR1996]

How do I stop big teams from scoring screamers for fun against me? It completely defeats the purpose of maintaining a more defensive approach when your opponent can just bang them from distance, Norwich did that 3 times in the last game yet my players struggle to hit the goal anywhere outside the box. I know my defense is awful but still, there should be a way to make them less useless. All they need to do is stand in front of the ball carrier so that any attempts at goal are blocked yet they keep leaving gaps between the lines.

I obviously don´t expect to hold onto a clean sheet for most games , it´s impossible when your team is this short in quality but I also don´t want to see such pitiful displays of defensive ineptitude on a regular basis.

Edited April 10, 2021 by CEVR1996

[lfds89]

33 minutes ago, CEVR1996 said:

How do I stop big teams from scoring screamers for fun against me? It completely defeats the purpose of maintaining a more defensive approach when your opponent can just bang them from distance, Norwich did that 3 times in the last game yet my players struggle to hit the goal anywhere outside the box. I know my defense is awful but still, there should be a way to make them less useless. All they need to do is stand in front of the ball carrier so that any attempts at goal are blocked yet they keep leaving gaps between the lines.

I obviously don´t expect to hold onto a clean sheet for most games , it´s impossible when your team is this short in quality but I also don´t want to see such pitiful displays of defensive ineptitude on a regular basis.

Do you have the players to do it? If you only have 2 players on the midfield they need high work rate and teamwork. They should also have aggression (to close down), anticipation (to read the situation), concentration (to remain focused) and positioning

[CEVR1996]

17 horas atrás, lfds89 disse:

Do you have the players to do it? If you only have 2 players on the midfield they need high work rate and teamwork. They should also have aggression (to close down), anticipation (to read the situation), concentration (to remain focused) and positioning

Sadly, this Wycombe squad isn´t fitted with players of such quality yet somehow, I´m still pulling off good results for now. There will be games where my defense struggles to do anything right and as a result, the opposition are allowed to have an absolute field day in their final third but even when that happens, I don´t tend to do a lot of fiddling around with the tactics for fear of making things worse. I suppose that at times, you´re simply not meant to have it easy nor come out on top, especially when managing smaller teams.

[CEVR1996]

Over the last 4 games, the team has been absolutely shocking, they can't defend nor attack and I have no idea what to do about it. In my most recent fixture, I had to scrap the tactic altogether and select one of the available tactical templates because of how bad the team was performing, they looked like a bunch of deeply intoxicated amateurs, unable to make two consecutive successful passes . Things did improve substantially after I did that but now I'm at a complete loss because the tactic I was hoping to be able to rely on for this first season has seemingly became useless.

I'm currently on a 4 game winless streak and the team is looking like they would even struggle against a non league side. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by CEVR1996

[Zemahh]

5 hours ago, CEVR1996 said:

I'm currently on a 4 game winless streak and the team is looking like they would even struggle against a non league side.

You'll need to give more info on what's actually going wrong. Head over to your Analyst Report and see where the assists for goals you're conceding are coming from. Are they through balls down the middle or crosses? One particular flank or both? Check your Attacking and Defensive Efficiency graphs and see where you stand in comparison to other teams. You can also check your league's Team Detailed stats to get a general idea of what your team can and can't do.

I'd also suggest you pick your last two or three matches and re-watch the Comprehensive highlights slowly. Try seeing where your attacks are breaking down, especially the ones you end up getting countered from. If you're only seeing highlights of your team defending, the tactic is most likely too aggressive for your squad (i.e. possession is getting lost too cheaply).

Also, a screenshot of your current tactic would be useful, if you need advice. I'm not really sure which one you're currently using.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

On 10/04/2021 at 20:39, CEVR1996 said:

How do I stop big teams from scoring screamers for fun against me?

That usually means you're too passive in closing down and/or you're not compressing the space.

Long shots under pressure are usually fun to see, because that's wasted opportunities. If they're getting free long shots, you need to identify why they're in space. Either, someone didn't close him down? Or your defensive line dropped too deep? Both? With a 4-4-2 you'll be particularly vulnerable to this because you don't have a natural shield of the DM (their AM) position.

 

When I play 4-4-2, I tend to have very conservative midfielders - CM/D, DLP/S for example, who will drop deeper and defend, which is vital as you'll be outnumbered in central midfield in most modern formations. For me, that means the counter attack absolutely has to be done by the wingers and strikers. You may also need to consider your backline, if you're going with no nonsense centre backs, remember they tend to clear it, rather than retain it. Consider how defensive your wingbacks are too, I personally wouldn't ever go full defensive on the backline because there isn't enough movement for me. I'd want those full backs going forward a bit to help out and to also relieve the pressure by being an outlet/offensive option that the opposition has to consider.